Are the Starks too remote/isolated, backwaterish to be considered good matches in the south?

[eggs]

I never got the impression that the Starks were looked down on.

[Weirwoodpecker]

The northmen have different culture and religion, and rather awful winters. Also, the north is so sparsely populated that it seems traveling singers don't even call on Winterfell very often. For people who care about such things, they might not want to move up north, but there's no doubt the Starks have plenty of prestige.

I think this is the key point about how they are viewed by Southern houses. Some people are making too much of the "backwoods hicks" characterization. The biggest reason that some of the Southern nobles think that of the Starks is the difference in religion and culture between North and South, reinforced by huge distances which mean not a lot of actual interaction between the Redwynes and the Starks, for example....It is understandable that stereotypes and stories take a life of their own and make more of the "backwoods hicks" characterization than is actually the case.

The Starks are absolutely one of the most respected houses....even Tywin Lannister, no friend of the Starks and as ruthless and calculating a character as there is in the story, has a healthy regard for the power, prestige, and capability of House Stark....reinforced in real time in the story by Robb's tactical success on the battlefield. The Starks aren't as wealthy as the Lannisters and do not command as many vassals and men as the Tyrells, but they have plenty of wealth and probably the most loyal bannermen of any region in Westeros. White Harbor is prosperous city, the sheer size of the North is impressive, and I think most characters recognize a difference in culture and tradition from North to South, but not a normative difference where one is clearly regarded as superior to the other.

[Addam of Hull]

I think this is the key point about how they are viewed by Southern houses. Some people are making too much of the "backwoods hicks" characterization. The biggest reason that some of the Southern nobles think that of the Starks is the difference in religion and culture between North and South, reinforced by huge distances which mean not a lot of actual interaction between the Redwynes and the Starks, for example....It is understandable that stereotypes and stories take a life of their own and make more of the "backwoods hicks" characterization than is actually the case.

The Starks are absolutely one of the most respected houses....even Tywin Lannister, no friend of the Starks and as ruthless and calculating a character as there is in the story, has a healthy regard for the power, prestige, and capability of House Stark....reinforced in real time in the story by Robb's tactical success on the battlefield. The Starks aren't as wealthy as the Lannisters and do not command as many vassals and men as the Tyrells, but they have plenty of wealth and probably the most loyal bannermen of any region in Westeros. White Harbor is prosperous city, the sheer size of the North is impressive, and I think most characters recognize a difference in culture and tradition from North to South, but not a normative difference where one is clearly regarded as superior to the other.

This is exactly the case. Only foolish men and women look down on the Starks in Westeros, but the cultural differences between the North, the South, and Dorne can not be understated. We do see characters misunderstanding the traditions and beliefs of the North from time to time, after all, and the difference in their respective regions can't be understated. This is especially made clear in Asha's chapters of ADWD where we see how distinctively the characters from the North and the South start to clash under Stannis's command. The Freys in Theon's and Davos's chapters display a grave misunderstanding of the Northern families. With the general degree of isolation that goes on with respect to the North, most of their southern neighbors probably view them more like a foreign country than a region of their own.

[Pod The Impaler]

Well, you can see there is a sort of "grim northern savages" kind of bias in the South. Balanced by a "poncy southron girlymen" kind of bias in the North.

Truthfully, there is an element of geographic truth to it, in that the North is very far from the places where the "action" (politics, wealth, trade, arts, etc. - all the kind of things that go on at a royal court).

Next to King's Landing, Oldtown is next biggest (and far older). So Dorne, for all it's distance from the capital has Oldtown on one side, the Free Cities on the other. Harder to be in the thick of things if you are in WInterfell, much less somewhere like Bear Island or Last Hearth. So for a father to marry his daughter off to some Northern lord, he has to be very impressed and she has to be very brave - because she will be going off into a place where you will likely never see her again. And that's assuming she can live through a northern winter.

Plus, let's not forget the religious / cultural aspect here. The North hold to the ways of the First Men. South of the Neck, it is mostly Andal culture and religion with a Targaryen political system grafted on top of it.

I don't think such matches are unheard of, but in light of all this, it has to be more rare.

[Naathi Prince]

Well, you can see there is a sort of "grim northern savages" kind of bias in the South. Balanced by a "poncy southron girlymen" kind of bias in the North.

Truthfully, there is an element of geographic truth to it, in that the North is very far from the places where the "action" (politics, wealth, trade, arts, etc. - all the kind of things that go on at a royal court).

Next to King's Landing, Oldtown is next biggest (and far older). So Dorne, for all it's distance from the capital has Oldtown on one side, the Free Cities on the other. Harder to be in the thick of things if you are in WInterfell, much less somewhere like Bear Island or Last Hearth. So for a father to marry his daughter off to some Northern lord, he has to be very impressed and she has to be very brave - because she will be going off into a place where you will likely never see her again. And that's assuming she can live through a northern winter.

Plus, let's not forget the religious / cultural aspect here. The North hold to the ways of the First Men. South of the Neck, it is mostly Andal culture and religion with a Targaryen political system grafted on top of it.

I don't think such matches are unheard of, but in light of all this, it has to be more rare.

Oh I doubt a non-Northman sends his daughter to be the Lady of Karhold or Last Hearth or the Dreadfort. Maybe Barrowton or White Harbor, but you'd have to be nuts or a Northman to marry your daughter off to the likes of Rickard Karstark

[lady m]

<snip>

I'm glad I read the thread, because I was about to post something similar. Very well stated.

[Free Northman]

Sure they're not polished or socially adroit. Heck, from a social point of view House Baelish far outmatches them.

Who cares. They talk softly but carry a big stick. If Sparta had zero social graces ( I don't know whether they did or not) the other Greek city states still had a healthy respect for them because they'd kick your asses if you didn't.

Now place Sparta about a thousand miles away, over rough terrain and amid a harsh climate and the other Greek city states would still respect them for their sheer power and ferocity, but would also tend to ignore them more and perhaps even make disparaging references to their wildness and lack of culture.

When the time came to make allies however, most would be first in line to ask for the Spartan King's daughter's hand in marriage.

You want the Starks as your friends, not your enemies. 8000 years of kicking all attempted invaders asses kind of brings about a certain sense of respect, perhaps even a measure of unacknowledged awe.

As for wealth and numbers: They're not the poorest Great House. In total GDP terms they're probably on a similar level to the Arryns, but this economic output is pread over a vast territory and partly absorbed by the need to prepate for Winter.

They're most certainly not the least populated Kingdom either. Martin says they can raise as many men as the Arryns. And if that's the case, then they almost certainly have a much higher overall population than the Arryns, as the densely populated, small and fertile Vale

Can no doubt raise a much higher portion of its population to arms than the widely dispersed, harsher North can.

Then we haven't even touched on strategic position and natural defensibility, or on the level of loyalty of bannermen etc.

Overall I'd put the Starks, Lannisters, Tyrells and Arryn's as the four greater Kings in terms of power, and the Martells, Tullys, Greyjoys and Storm Kings as the four lesser Kings, when all factors are considered.

[Rheagar Prime]

i think they are of the higest breed its just past lords other that rikard stark that we know off just don't marry down south for some reason they just kept it up north. Heck i haven't even heard of houses from dorne marry much into the other kingdoms or the iron islands.

[lojzelote]

This thread made me remember how Sansa recalls the one time an old singer appeared at Winterfell and she desperately begged her father to keep him there because their visits there were so rare she feared no other will ever come. And she was right.

I think that Southroners are wary of the North generally, the cruel, vast land of stone and snow, which is religiously and (to a certain extent) culturally different from the other kingdoms (the Dornish at least keep the Seven and can afford pleasure palaces, which would, I feel, be a great plus for a Hightower girl). If we matched the Seven Kingdoms for the Seven, the North would totally be the Stranger. People are well aware that the Stranger as an aspect of their god must be powerful (just as that the Starks are a Great House), but if they have to choose they prefer the other six facets that are just much more welcoming. (Btw, I didn't count the Iron Islands into the Seven Kingdoms, but used the Riverlands instead.)

That said, I don't think they are a bad match, far from it, but notice that the houses Rickard planned to marry his children into were the Stormlands (which are the one region, aside from the II and and the Crownlands, that must be poorer than the North) and the Riverlands which are ruled over by the Tullys, who are, together with the Tyrells, pretty much the upstarts among the great houses. We know how much Mace was bothered by that, so it's possible that Hoster had been too, and if the Starks have anything to be proud of in comparison to other houses, it's the long line of kings in the past of their House.

[Free Northman]

The North is richer than Dorne as well.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Considering Jorah was given the hand of a Hightower, I don't really see a Stark being denied.

Well, Jorah marrying the Hightower girl was said to be a special exception. I believe Jorah himself mentioned that he was sure her father would not allow it.

As for the Starks, they are the oldest family in all of the Seven Kingdoms and The North is fairly powerful and pretty good economically. Their vassals might be too backwaterish but I don't think that would make the Starks themselves less desirable for matches.

[LordBloodraven]

"Do you find a problem with the girl? She's quite beautiful and of the highest birth". When Tywin Lannister deems you fit to marry into his family, all the gotha of Westeros will go along with it

[jon stark I]

Unlike Cassterly Rock, Starks don't want their bannerman to give them everything they got and Manderly says that "Old Town has gold but I have the silver " All by himself Manderly creates a fleet of war ships and a very huge army.As we know Starks are ancient and I think if you put 2 chest full of gold aside every year you get 16000 chest .I mean Starks now how to survive Winters and it seems like North never cared that much about gold so I guess they never felt the need to boast about how rich they are.

[Lady of Long Lake]

` Man, oh man, this subject makes me a little sad. I've always felt that House Stark is easily one of the top three houses in all of Westeros with regards to prestige, history, etc... But I watched a GRRM interview where he was kinda making fun of the North, and by extension the Starks, as being poor, backwards and kinda ignorant. It crushed me.

This is coming from the man that would be a "Lannister" if he could choose what family he would like to be in in Westeros. Yes, the dysfunctional, incestuous, disloyal, backstabbing, evil, arrogant Lannisters, They are horrible fathers, mothers, siblings to each other, Queens, Kings, etc. But that's okay because money must trump everything in GRRM's mind.

Sometimes I think it's better not to read his interviews cus I lose respect for the man :crying:

[lojzelote]

` Man, oh man, this subject makes me a little sad. I've always felt that House Stark is easily one of the top three houses in all of Westeros with regards to prestige, history, etc... But I watched a GRRM interview where he was kinda making fun of the North, and by extension the Starks, as being poor, backwards and kinda ignorant. It crushed me.

I would be very thankful if somebody directed me to this interview. Please, please, anybody?

The North is richer than Dorne as well.

I recognize I might be wrong but I've got the impression that the Martells live in the midst of luxury :) . Arianne's garderobe, compared to Catelyn's, appears to be quite exquisite. Of course, it might be just a preference on Cat's part and lack of restraint on Arianne's, but the difference is glaring, imo.

This is coming from the man that would be a "Lannister" if he could choose what family he would like to be in in Westeros. Yes, the dysfunctional, incestuous, disloyal, backstabbing, evil, arrogant Lannisters, They are horrible fathers, mothers, siblings to each other, Queens, Kings, etc. But that's okay because money must trump everything in GRRM's mind.

Sometimes I think it's better not to read his interviews cus I lose respect for the man :crying:

Judgemental much? I haven't heard the interview yet, obviously, but I have no doubt he either meant it as a joke or just said he would like to lead a comfortable life, not to be an incestous, disloyal, backstabbing, evil, arrogant person. Btw, how do you know that Tyrek, Kevan's twins, Janei, Lanna, Lucion, and so forth are like that? <_<

[Naathi Prince]

I would be very thankful if somebody directed me to this interview. Please, please, anybody?

I recognize I might be wrong but I've got the impression that the Martells live in the midst of luxury :). Arianne's garderobe, compared to Catelyn's, appears to be quite exquisite. Of course, it might be just a preference on Cat's part and lack of restraint on Arianne's, but the difference is glaring, imo.

Judgemental much? I haven't heard the interview yet, obviously, but I have no doubt he either meant it as a joke or just said he would like to lead a comfortable life, not to be an incestous, disloyal, backstabbing, evil, arrogant person. Btw, how do you know that Tyrek, Kevan's twins, Janei, Lanna, Lucion, and so forth are like that? <_<

its hard to wear silks in the north

[lojzelote]

its hard to wear silks in the north

Silks maybe, but not jewels.

[Jasta11]

Tywin (not exactly a Stark fan) says that Sansa if ''of the highest birth'' while proposing her marriage to Tyrion in Storm. Based on that alone I'd say there's some amount of respect for Stark and Northmen, if not the North itself (after all, who wants to leave the Reach or Dorne to freeze their arses up there?). The Northmen live a more simple life and have less luxury and outlandish garments, par for the course in such climates, but that doesn't make them ignorant savages living in a backwater.

Remember the Stark words too. ''Winter is coming''. Almost all other Houses display a boast of sorts, while the Starks are just saying, screw that nonsense, we've got more important things to do than showing off. I guess it's that general attitude that differenciates them from the Southrons.

[Mladen]

Now,if this war ends good for the Starks, Sansa and Rickon would be on top, or somewhere near that list of desirable match. As was said, Starks are among the oldest Houses of Westeros, and now the next generation has connections with both Riverlands and the Vale, what more do you want?

[Bellatrix Stark]

The Starks could marry anywhere they wished. I'm sure Robb would have married outside the North, but then again was Ned that worried about making alliances with others instead of keeping with the traditional liege lord marries subject (right word?) , ala his marriage to Catelyn, Lysa to Jon Arryn, Lyanna to Robert... What's that conspiracy called, the Southern Conspiracy? Ned's dad, Hoster Tully and Jon Arryn were allying themselves together against the Targaryens, or so it would have seemed..

Catelyn, also, thought Robb and Margaery would have been a good match. Imagine if that marriage had happened!