Did Catelyn abuse Jon for his whole life?

[Minsc]

Yes, isn't he a total jerk for saying that?

I mean, he fathers this child on some random woman, mere months, maybe weeks, into his marriage. OK, so Cat forgives that. But then he brings the child home. The very first time Ned sees his trueborn son, he's got his bastard pretty much right there with him. He held Jon in his arms before he ever held Robb. And when Cat suggests that maybe the child should be brought up elsewhere, as pretty much everyone else does with their bastards, she gets shut down right away. There's never a time, in Cat's whole married life, when she and her children get Ned's undivided attention. Not a day. When she tries to talk to her husband about this child and where he comes from, she gets anger. He scares her. He behaves in a way that's completely out of character, and shows what strong emotion she has for Jon's mother - but she gets absolutely nothing from him about who she is, where Jon comes from. He makes it clear that she is not allowed to even talk about Jon's mother. It's the only time in their entire married life that he behaves badly to her - and it is bad behaviour. Unquestionably.

OK, so she puts up with all of that. And then Ned has to leave. He has to take half of her children away to a dangerous, faraway place where she'll not see them for months, maybe years. And while she's processing that, he asks her to do the one thing she has never been asked to do - look after Jon.

Because if Jon stays, and Cat is in charge, there's no more avoiding him. She's responsible for him, as she is for everyone in Winterfell. And that will be very hard for both of them. What Ned's asking is a great deal: Ned's request is, itself, quite cruel. And she's understandably less than keen. And what does he do? Does he say 'I know this is a difficult thing I'm asking, but I have no other choice'? Does he say 'please, Cat. If not for my sake, then for Robb's'? No, he tells her off. As if her reluctance had nothing at all to do with his unreasonable attitude in refusing to even talk to her about Jon.

That's pretty much a dick move, to me. We hear a lot about how Cat behaved to Jon, over the years, but how Ned behaved towards Cat, where Jon is concerned, is at least as bad.

:agree:

This is very well argued and brings up an important point, additionally I think it is important to look at how his verbal reasoning for wanting Jon to stay at Winterfell was quite insensitive to Catelyn's feelings. As basically she suggests that Jon go to King's Landing with Ned(which if R+L=J is not true was a great idea), but Ned deflects that suggestion by saying how Jon will be shamed and embarrassed in King's Landing for being a bastard. However, Ned argues it would be better off if Jon stays in Winterfell ignoring the fact that Jon's presence there shames and humiliates Catelyn to around the same degree that being a bastard does for Jon. Therefore, it is quite understandable that she isn't really moved by Ned's arguments as he is once again ignoring her feelings entirely to focus solely on Jon.

[Tommen]

Catelyn acknowledges that her brother is kind-hearted, but in military terms, she is correct. The more mouths there are to feed, the more quickly the food will run out when the castle comes under siege.

People under siege in medieval times often faced a horrible choice between surrender, or expelling the old, the women, and children, rather than see the garrison starve. Sometimes the besiegers let them through. More often, they didn't, so the defenders were forced to watch their relatives starving to death outside the walls.

I agree. Her tactics are sound as long as the lives of the lower classes be can written off as an acceptable loss.

[SeanF]

I agree. Her tactics are sound as long as the lives of the lower classes be can written off as an acceptable loss.

So, is it more humane to expel them, once the siege has begun, and to depend on the good nature of the besieging forces?

[Tommen]

Jon is seated in a place of honour, with other noble youths. Even Benjen doesn't dine on the top table. And Jon prefers it to being on the top table.

Be that as it may, it's not out of kindness that he's seated there. He acknowledges that it's a sleight on the part of Catelyn. I don't doubt that Benjen would be welcome on the high table if he wished, and even if he wasn't it would just be another example of how certain people just aren't "good enough" to sit with the royals.

[Tommen]

A statement I'm sure Catelyn would agree with, however the big thing is that, to her, Jon is very much not family - he's Ned's bastard, no more.

I don't believe Catelyn should have the right to decide who is part of the Stark family and who isn't.

[Tommen]

So, is it more humane to expel them, once the siege has begun, and to depend on the good nature of the besieging forces?

Of course not, what makes you ask that? Their protection should be the top priority. If the lord can't provide that, he shouldn't be lord.

[Minsc]

I don't believe Catelyn should have the right to decide who is part of the Stark family and who isn't.

What is Jon's last name again?

[Maxpey]

A mistreated bastard would be someone like Falia Flowers, who was essentially treated as a servant by her stepmother and half siblings. The relationship between Falia and her Stepmother is the type of relationship that many people seem to think Jon and Catelyn had.

However Jon was treated as part of the family, yes Catelyn refused to acknowledge him or form any emotional connection and yes he was not allowed to sit at the high table for official occasions but he was part of the Stark family and everybody knew it. He trained with his siblings, he played with his siblings, all six of them sat together to listen to Old Nan and he attended official occasions (such as the execution and the event where he danced with Alys Karstark) as a member of the Stark family.

Catelyn's cold and distant attitude may be jarring from the point of view of a child who is feeling like an outsider but it is perfectly understandable to an adult. The fact that Jon lived the life he did at Winterfell and not one simialr to Falia Flowers is proof of just how tolerant Catelyn was.

I strongly dislike Catelyn, she is one of my most hated characters but this is something that is often held against her is plain wrong. She did not abuse Jon in any way, Catelyn is not responsible for Jon's deep seated mother issues or abandonment issues, that part is all on Ned I'm afraid.

The only reason Jon was treated as part of the family was because Ned wouldn't have had it any other way.

Catelyn had no say in the matter whatsoever.

In fact, if she had her way Jon would have been fostered someplace else.

[Tommen]

What is Jon's last name again?

*Sigh* it baffles me how strongly you support tradition over egalitarianism.

[SeanF]

Be that as it may, it's not out of kindness that he's seated there. He acknowledges that it's a sleight on the part of Catelyn. I don't doubt that Benjen would be welcome on the high table if he wished, and even if he wasn't it would just be another example of how certain people just aren't "good enough" to sit with the royals.

But, it isn't a slight. By the standards of his society, he's being treated with courtesy and honour.

Of course not, what makes you ask that? Their protection should be the top priority. If the lord can't provide that, he shouldn't be lord.

Indeed. The Starks and Tullys are trying to defeat the Lannister forces in the field. But, they also need to give thought to what will happen if they're beaten, and Riverrun is placed under siege. If the Smallfolk were being threatened by some small force, or brigands, it would make sense to let them into Riverrun. But, if Riverrun is placed under siege by a huge force which seals off every way of escape, you aren't doing the Smallfolk any favours by letting them stay there. Either they'll starve along with the garrison, or they'll have to be expelled. It makes much more sense to try and get them out of the war zone in good time.

[Minsc]

*Sigh* it baffles me how strongly you support tradition over egalitarianism.

It is fantasy series not a philosophy text, I don't expect characters to act out egalitarian or utopian beliefs.

[Starfell]

Ideally Jeyne and Mycah would be allowed to sit at the high table if Sansa and Arya wished, but my point is that Jon is separate from his family. I'm not saying that Jeyne and Mycah deserve to be seated lower than the Starks, I'm saying that Jon deserves to be seated with his family and to deny him that is outright malice. I personally believe that family is more important than etiquette.

I severely doubt that Mycah would be allowed anywhere near the table. In fact, I'd be surprised if he was in the hall at all, he's the butcher's boy, he has no place at a royal feast, he's a lot lower than Jon on the social ladder. And I'm sceptical about the idea of Ned seating Jon on the top table during a royal visit too, it would be seen as an affront to their guests to let a bastard sit there, Jon just assumes it's Cat's fault because they don't like each other

*Sigh* it baffles me how strongly you support tradition over egalitarianism.

It baffles me that you keep judging characters by modern standards rather than making allowances for the setting. I'm not saying you have to be ok with the inequalities but you seem to be demanding a standard of behaviour from the characters that is completely inappropriate for the setting given the differences in social and moral values between the real life Western world and Westeros

[Tommen]

It is fantasy series not a philosophy text, I don't expect characters to act out egalitarian or utopian beliefs.

Nor do I, but it doesn't mean I have to support their beliefs if I find them unfair.

[Tommen]

I severely doubt that Mycah would be allowed anywhere near the table. In fact, I'd be surprised if he was in the hall at all, he's the butcher's boy, he has no place at a royal feast, he's a lot lower than Jon on the social ladder. And I'm sceptical about the idea of Ned seating Jon on the top table during a royal visit too, it would be seen as an affront to their guests to let a bastard sit there, Jon just assumes it's Cat's fault because they don't like each other

Haha, not disagreeing that Mycah would never get close to the table! Also not disagreeing about Ned, I think he's compliant with the treatment of Jon and in that respect I criticise him as a father. Could go into reasons for this based on R+L=J, I guess, but that would be going way off topic.

It baffles me that you keep judging characters by modern standards rather than making allowances for the setting. I'm not saying you have to be ok with the inequalities but you seem to be demanding a standard of behaviour from the characters that is completely inappropriate for the setting given the differences in social and moral values between the real life Western world and Westeros

What about the Free Folk? And the Night's Watch? They're both examples of cultures in which a person gets what they earn (the NW perhaps only in theory, as it's clear there is an unofficial class hierarchy there despite its egalitarian ideals). The ideas and philosophies exist in that world, it's up to characters to decide for themselves how they're going to treat their fellow human being.

[mormont]

Ideally Jeyne and Mycah would be allowed to sit at the high table if Sansa and Arya wished, but my point is that Jon is separate from his family. I'm not saying that Jeyne and Mycah deserve to be seated lower than the Starks, I'm saying that Jon deserves to be seated with his family and to deny him that is outright malice. I personally believe that family is more important than etiquette.

But... Jon was seated with his siblings, usually. We know that.

So I don't even see what the complaint is, here. Is it because he wasn't seated with them at the royal feast? It's not really fair to lay that at Cat's door. The fact is, to seat him there would have been an insult to the King, the Queen, the entire royal family. Sure, Robert might not have cared, but other people would have - and I don't just mean Cersei. It would have been court gossip for weeks. Not what Ned wants, surely?

I'm sure Cat didn't much want Jon at the royal table, but the fact is, even if it had been her heart's deepest desire, it was never going to happen. It's absurd to blame Cat for that, as if she'd gone out of her way to snub Jon.

I don't believe Catelyn should have the right to decide who is part of the Stark family and who isn't.

She doesn't have that right. But Jon isn't a Stark, he's a Snow. He's told that again and again. He knows it, himself.

And to be fair to Cat, there's no evidence that she ever tried to interfere in Jon's relationships with his siblings or his father.

[Dreadwolf]

In summary the arguments of those who blame Catelyn for ill-treatment/ emotional abuse of Jon seems to be:

1. <It should have been you> line;

These were harsh words indeed. These would have been better kept in silence.

We however do not know if Catelyn really though that way or it was just an emotional outburst caused by several days lack of sleep and perhaps the protocol necessity to accept the condolence of almost all the Lannisters* guests and perhaps many other not so pleasant person invading WF at the time. Plus the side effect of the constant stress following the fact that her spouse is adamant to go south with her daughters in that very moment.

Cat*s emotional status was not perfectly conditioned at the moment and the reasons for that if not justifiable are at least quite natural. In as much as every hu-man under stress [and often even w/o being under pressure] may speak bad and not well-though things – I believe this one time dropped line is a forgivable <sin>. This is something that even the best of us sometimes could do. And I guess Jon was able to understand that.

OTOH to me it is obvious that these words were hollow and that it is not Catelyn*s way of rationalizing. We have two separate examples elsewhere in the books wherefrom we could judge about Cat*s view of life and people. [i envisage only the time in her life, and not her after life which was entirely another story] These examples demonstrate Catelyn*s attitude towards her dearest enemies like Cresei and Theon. It is important to note that Jon was never included in that category. Catelyn indicated that much as she would like to strangle Cersei that would not return Sansa and Arya back. Then she was disgusted by the gift Bolton*s offered her namely a part of Theons skin after the sack of Winterfell. The simple logic is that with all her grief for her lost husband and kids – Catelyn believed that no other death may pay for the lost lives.

2. She never spoke with Jon. She never called him by name;

I do not think we could qualify that as ill-treatment however.

While this is obvious not polite and against the standard courtesy code, it still does not necessarily represents mistreatment.

For comparison we have Cersei [a lady playing for a time a mother–substitute figure and even a mentor for young lady Sansa in Kings Landing], who was always ready to socialize with the poor girl. All that might have been polite but IMHO Cersei*s teaching and preaching to Sansa were much more harming for the young girl*s psychic compared to Catlyn*s <killing him softly> silence towards Jon.

Apparently Lady Stark did not feel necessity to speak with Jon Snow. In fact we know she do not want the boy hanging around in Winterfell for as it was many times mentioned above Jon was a walking and constant reminder of her husband*s <adventure>. Let alone the fact that Jon had much more Starkish appearance compered to her own children save for Arya.

BTW We do not know if she was keeping silence when Jon had tried to start talking to her. We do not even know if Jon ever tried to start any conversation with his <step mother> except for that farewell occasion at the Bran*s bed.

3. She refused to play a substitute of his mother.

That alone is hardly abusive by definition. But it seems that a lot of Jon*s fans believe that this is Catelyn*s duty and a must. [or at the least she owed it to Jon if she or her fans may claim she was a decent/ goods person at all.]

Twisting a little bit the case from the OP I can imagine the good old king Robert if one day Cersei came home with a baby saying that it is from another <secret> father but nevertheless she intended to rasise the poor bastard in the KL palace – all day long for the gods and people can see… Of course as it was mentioned we must learn from the positive examples not from the bad.

Anyway in my understanding the fact that any child desperately needs a mother and that the said child is a natural son of one*s spouse may not automatically wake up warm feelings and parental instinct in to another spouse towards the subject child <in trouble>. And that per se is not abusive or traumatic.

4. Catelyn supported Jon*s desire to take the black.

Well the real accusation here presumes that Catelyn used the opportunity which the good chance alone offered her so she could get rid of the Jon*s presence and remote at the moment as it may be his eventual claim to WF.

While she shared his opinion on the matter with Eddard we must however agree that Benjen and Maysrer Luwin had the same understanding on what would be the best solution for Jon Snow future and all related complications [such as the peace in WF trifle]

Finally we know that when Ned believed something is the right thing to be done he would listen to no one else rather than his own consious. Late lord Eddard Stark might have been many things but he was never a husband under petticoat government.

5. She objected to Robb*s will for legitimating Jon Snow and made him King*s heir.

I think this is quite off-topic and will not discuss the issue in details here.

It is no doubt ideological/ political dispute between Lady Stark and her almost grown son AKA Young Wolf. The case is very much similar to another one – namely when King in the North sent Theon to negotiate in the Iron Islands. It may be good or bad advice. It may be a prejudiced and or charged advice. Protective to her children as Carelyn was - the last definition I can give for the said deed of Lady Stark would be a mistreat.

6. Catelyn was angry at Eddard for that he:

a.) Allegedly after their marriage was with another woman

b.) Impregnated that unknown woman with son, brought that bay-son in their family castle

c.) And finally refused to provide any explanation to her lawful wife and instead threatened her with coldness in his tone and an ardour in his eyes as devastating as the rudest of the naturals elementals can be.

However instead of persisting in her attempts to solve the case with her beloved husband she rationalized her rage and directed it towards the fruit of his loins.

It may be interesting to see how did she justified her husband bad deed in accordance with the critics?

To show what I believe would be Catelin*s critics explanation I will use the same notation as above:

a.) She explained that away from home and at war any man can show weakness. Well … TBH - Robb Stark kind of epically succeeded in proving she was right later in the narrating…

b.) She rationalized or to be more precise she found some quite irrational explanation there in defense of her husband. And that was<the Starks were not like any other noble family>. [!!!???!!!]That is to say it is not that they as a customary rule raise their bastards at their castle in front of her lawful wife*s eyes. No. She believed that her husband and his family [to which she sincerely considered also herself as an integral part] was so unique that even the Jaime Lannister [the guy who confessed that there are no other men like him.] could have envied at her confidence. Whatever the case may be, the Starks, their errors, their beliefs and their story more or less made the Song of Ice and fire unique. So Cat might have been onto something there.

c.) There cannot be reasonable explanation of why a woman shall left any man threatening her. It is not appropriate here even the standard <she loved him very much/ the things I do for love explanation. I tend to believe that she lived in a harsh society which obviously did not protect a lonely woman, and that she was so depressed by the apparent fact Ned cheated on her with some other never named, never explained woman so that it alone crushed her resistance to fight for her and her family rights. Lioness as she was in all other aspects.

Now to address the accusation of Catelin*s redirecting her rage to innocent and helpless child:

In fact:

- Even without recieving explanation she understood that the boy is important for her husband and so she let him live untroubled in the castle.

- she let him be educated by the best tutors as a genuine lord*s son.

- she never objected to his socializing with her children. We have no clue that she ever tried to make any of her children hate or despise Jon. [something that any mother can comparatively easy achieve should she want to].

- The only thing she never allowed Jon is to be part of the Starks family and that she never let him believe that he could be ever a legitimate heir of the Starks

In fact lord Eddard himself never suggested anything to the contrary. Right?

+++

All that being said it appears that Catelyn huge sins were that:

• With all her love for Ned , she Was not happy because her husband refused to give her any decent explanation why she should bear his bastard in the castle which was supposed to be her home.
  
• She was afraid that the bastard boy may threaten the inheritance of her own children
  
• She was not hypocrite and denied to offer Jon Snow genuine mothers care.
  
• Being under great pressure She had said to Jon Snow something extremely unpleasant. Something that could have made him unhappy because it may imply that the wife of his father actually do not love him very much.
  

In my understanding all that is way too distant from mistreat and abusive behavior.

[Lady Arya's Song]

I reread the Jon II portion of Game of thrones VERY carefully and even wrote it out. GRRM has written this in a subtle way that in my mind DOES suggest emotional abuse from Catelyn to Jon. Notice the adjectives George uses

He stood in the door for a moment, afraid to speak, afraid to come closer.

( Afraid to speak afraid to come closer due to always having a sharp word spoken to him or being pushed away..imagine being two or three and not understanding why this great lady speaks this way to you when you see your brother and sisters being cuddled by her and the slow understanding year by year that you are the odd one..you are the one not loved..no cuddles for you..no softly spoken words)

Lady Stark looked over "WHAT are you doing here?" in a voice strangely flat and emotionaless.

I came to see Bran, Jon said. "To say goodbye" "You've said it. Now go away."

Part of him wanted to flee but he knew if he did he might never see Bran again. he took a nervous step into the room.

" Please" he said.

Something COLD moved in her eyes. " I told you to leave" she said. " We don't want you here."

( Notice this! Cold in her eyes and WE don't want you here..this is straight up crypt picture..the dreams that Jon Snow has about going down into the COLD crypts where dead kings sit and feeling their COLD eyes on his and their voices saying "WE don't WANT YOU HERE!"

ONCE that would have sent him running. Once that might have even made him cry.

( This certainly implies that Many times Jon has run away from her cold looks and many times Jon has cried over her treatment to him.) This is a pattern that Jon has had to face from Catelyn Tully Stark many times as a younger child. This is what GRRM is implying.

Now it only made him angry. He would be a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch soon and face worse dangers than Catelyn Tully Stark. ( notice that Jon links danger with Catelyn Tully Stark..using her maiden surname as well in his thoughts)

Later in this pov. Jon is crying and he kissed Bran Stark on his lips. Martin writes that he makes sure he keeps Bran's bed between him and Lady Stark.

The saddest part of this chapter is where Catelyn Stark starts telling Jon Snow how she prayed that Bran would be left at home with her. That Bran Stark is her 'special " boy. ( wonder how that made Rob Stark and Rickon Stark feel?)

" I prayed for it" she said duly. " He was my special boy. I went to the sept and prayed seven times to the Seven faced god that Ned would change his mind and leave him here with me. "Sometimes prayers are answered."

The saddest darn moment, is Jon Snow standing there listening to this women tell him this and then He TRIES to give her Comfort! " It wasn't your fault; he managed after an ackward silence."

Her eyes found him. They were full of poison. " I need none of your absolution, bastard!"

(Why does she say this to Jon..because he tried to comfort her and the truth is..Catelyn Stark has repeatedly probably prayed for the death of Jon Snow.)

He should have kept going but she had never called him by his name before. " Jon", she said.

She had never called him by his name before.. ( This is beyond a cruel set up that she does..never having called him anything but bastard of Snow his entire life..the first time she uses his given name is right after he tries to give her comfort!) She uses his name to set him up..this is not a mad woman with gried..this is cruel calculating.

He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time. " Yes?" he said. " It should have been you." she told him.

This was beyond cruel in my mind. I like the character Catelyn Stark for many reasons..but I am absolutely sure that Jon Snow as a child felt a cold hatred coming from this woman. I can't gloss over this woman's treatment of an innocent child..and the SWEETNESS of Jon Snow who gave Bran Stark his fish and gave Needle to Arya, or who talked to his supposed father Ned and pleaded for the direwolves for the Stark children never knowing there was one for himself.

If ever there was a character who deserved a happy adult life its Jon Snow and if Catelyn Stark or UnCat or whatever she has become..she needs to ask the gods for forgiveness for the way she has treated Jon Snow!!.

[The Great Walrus]

No, her relationship with Jon was more distant and cold if anything...

[David Selig]

The saddest darn moment, is Jon Snow standing there listening to this women tell him this and then He TRIES to give her Comfort! " It wasn't your fault; he managed after an ackward silence."

Her eyes found him. They were full of poison. " I need none of your absolution, bastard!"

(Why does she say this to Jon.

Because Catelyn is awesome. I love that line.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I am absolutely sure that Jon Snow as a child felt a cold hatred coming from this woman. I can't gloss over this woman's treatment of an innocent child..and the SWEETNESS of Jon Snow who gave Bran Stark his fish and gave Needle to Arya, or who talked to his supposed father Ned and pleaded for the direwolves for the Stark children never knowing there was one for himself,

:bowdown: this is so true. Thank you Sir for your great post! ^_^