R+L=J v.51

[Alia of the knife]

Overall, yes. But the Stark family we meet at the start only consists of good characters. The Targs are a more mixed bunch; there's no equivalent to Viserys in the Stark family of AGoT for example.

That said, looking at Brandon Stark and his aggressive behavior as well as Starks further back in history, like the suggestion of the NK being s Stark, certainly mean there have been not so nice Starks in the past. Similarly, the pre-Aerys Targs were more often than not decent people (and so was Rhaegar, more likely than not). Of the six Targ kings with the longest rule, Jaehaerys I, Aegon I, Daeron II, Viserys I, Aegon III and Aegon V, none was a bad ruler, and only Aegon I can even be considered cruel. None of them was a bad ruler either, and they combine a total of almost 200 years of beneficial rule among them; the reputation of House Targaryen among fans is much worse than it should be, considering thse facts.

But, I also don't think the Starks could have ruled for eight thousand years on just ruthlessness, or fear alone. I get the sense they were genuinely loved as indicated by Wylla Manderly's quote:

“Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf’s Den before the old gods and the new. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!"

And as far as Brandon, we really don't have a lot of information on him other that that of a potentially scorned woman who to this day talks about wanting "to be one of them."

He could have killed LF, and in retrospect, should have, but didn't. And I don't really see any difference between him and the Red Viper.

At the end of the day, Brandon is really everything an Alpha Male should be in terms of the wolf imagry, and Lyanna everything an Alpha female should be.

That said, in over eight thousand years of rule, I'd be surprised if there were no skeletons, and it makes them more interesting so to speak in terms of being the parallel family to the Targaryens.

I'm indifferent to the Targaryens, so I don't either love or hate them.

In terms of most fan hate for the Targs., I do agree that perhaps they get too much of a bad wrap, but the tone was set in the first book with Aerys and Viserys, and the issue of incest, which is a deal breaker.

It's like that first visit with upper managment, you have one shot at making a good impression, and GOT set that impression for the fans as most may not go back and read the Dunk & Egg series, or do any back-story research to find out that they weren't all bad.

On the issue of Jon's and Rhaegar's personality being the missing link, I totally agree.

While Jon was nurtured a Stark, by nature Jon is Rhaegars dragon.

Did you find any link between the Prince Charming and TPtwP? :lol:

In my world there was a tradition. About that time the heep was Crumb, the French of Metal Hurlant, Manara, Moebius, Corto Maltes,... I was fond of a former Armenian taxi-driver who was passed out of pot, and was into meditation... I can't remember his name, but he was true.

No, but I did want to have his child for the longest time. :laugh:

[Alia of the knife]

I think you're exactly in my age group :)

I read comic books too. I used to own the first ever issue of The She-Hulk-- my fav!

I think Ygrain is most likely correct in this. But I also share your frustration with "poor planning" Every time I reread I hope Ned will send the girls away from KL before he confronts Cersei. Sadly, he hasn't figured it out yet...

I'm honored to be in good company, and YES, She-Hulk was AWESOME!

And regarding the poor planning issue, I do the same thing. It's agony for a Capricorn to read this book, because I go back and practically re-strategize everything for Ned and Robb.

If I were Ned:

1). Send daughters back to Winerfell:

2).Don't speak to one "spider," "bird," or cleaning lady, sneak out of KL in the middle of the night, (hey, if Good Sister can do it so can I), and once safely back in Winterfell, THEN send ravens out to every House regarding Cersei/Jaimie findings.

3). Create a new Motto: "Winter came and went, and is never going back:"

If I were Rhaegar:

Before battle, send whore, booze, laced with a little dreamwine and a good luck note:

If I were Robb:

Send Edmure, (how well did I really know him), and best regards to the nuptials, but sadly tell the Freys I couldn't attend because I fell and hit my head and am seeing snarks.

Just ANYTHING other than what they did. :crying:

[Ygrain]

Yep, he explicitly calls them prince and princess. If he knew of the switch and this was one of GRRM's attempts to fool us in a Ned POV, he would've thought that they are still kids or something, omitting the part where Ned says their positions - prince and princess.

Correct me if I am wrong, but when Sansa pleads for Lady, Ned remember's Rhaegar's son and the red ruin of his skull, which, IMHO, pretty much settles the issue of the identity of the dead child.

Sometimes I get lost with unimportant details: Clegane, Lorch.... in the end, Tywin Lannister, no matter who did the do.

Let's analyze the facts. Of course Hightower would follow Aerys' orders, but I'd feel easier it the orders made sense.

Aerys could have used Hightower as a courier, but it doesn't make much sense.

Aerys might have not told Hightower what to do after delivering his message, but it doesn't make sense.

Rhaegar could have told Hightower to stay at ToJ but, what for? He trusted Dayne and Whent, and they were enough to manage minor hazards. What difference made Hightower?

The answers given to these questions are rather feeble, IMO.

Aegon would be THE ANSWER but I have no evidences.

Otoh, I don't think there's any doubt that Rhaegar was fond of women. It's a mnor detail, anyway, and I'm not sure it adds anything worthy.

Didn't I mention the word negotiation in my previous post? The same as Robb sent Cat negotiate, instead of sending a mere letter to Renly? Or that if Aerys was sending a royal decree with some highly sensitive content which absolutely had to remain secret, a courier wouldn't do? I don't see how this doesn't make sense to you.

Why should Hightower stay? The way I see it, secrecy was the issue. Lyanna had to stay hidden from both the rebels and Aerys, and Hightower could be trusted to keep the location secret from anyone but Aerys. If the king ordered him to disclose the secret, he would have to tell. The option of Aerys seizing Lyanna would definitely be one that Rhaegar would have tried to avoid, and he had a bigger bargaining chip: Aerys needs him. If Aerys ordered Hightower to convince Rhaegar to return at any cost, then regardless what he might have ordered concerning Hightower's return, Lord Commander would have to prioritize and break one order to fulfill another, more important. He wouldn't be too happy for that for sure but he would have no other option.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Melancholy? I'd attribute that more to the gloominess of the Wall and such. I wish I hadn't lent my copy of AGOT out so I could see if he seemed that way in his first couple chapters.

Check out the Jon Snow reread project. You'll find summaries of all his chapters and a lot if insight into his personality;

[FrozenFire3]

I have digital versions but was having an issue with my search function this morning. I did get it to locate the one in AGoT that you referenced, so once I work out my bug I should be able to find any others.

I will pm you if I find anything interesting!

Thanks a bunch!

Let us know if you find anything 'juicy' ;)

This literally just dawned on me and i apologize if its been said 100 times, but in ASoS when we get Jaimes POV he starts thinking about how he's not sad that Joff died and he says "He was my seed but not my son"

This kinda mirrors Jon and Ned, Jon was not of Ned's seed but he was his son.

Just something I think GRRM throws in to say that just because you donated some sperm it doesnt make you a father.

No doubt Ned is Jon's father by nurture. I'd like to point out though, that fate was slightly unfair to Lyanna (the ovule donor) and Rhaegar (the sperm donor). None of them choose to be merely a 'donor' and had things gone differently, they probably would have loved and nurtured their son. Jaime and Cersei made a choice. A realpolitik choice but a choice nevertheless. R+L never had one.

This theory seems legit (Tower of Joy, Ned's grief)...

but what Targaryen features does Jon have? You would think with their generations of in-breeding their genes would be very dominant and make it unlikely that any of their offspring would not have Targaryen features.

Indeed. Add Jon's single-mindedness and his focus on duty (and the sense of his duty, not its wording), and Jon's character seems to fit Barristan's recollection of Rhaegar almost to the t.

Add Jon's rage issues (waking the dragon and all that) and empathy that most of his cousins lack (while he shares it with Dany), and it starts staring you in the face that Jon is just as much a Targ as a Stark.

:agree: with theguyfromtheVale. I posted a comparison some time ago with some characterial parallels between Rhaegar and Jon. I'll try to put it down again black and white:

Jon is a skilled warrior. Rhaegar, quoting Barristan: "I will require a sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior." [...] He did it well, for he did everything well.

Jon is smart and stubborn. Rhaegar: Able, above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded.

Jon knows about tactics and politics and also how to form plans and execute them. Rhaegar: King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent's tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together.

Jon, like Rhaegar, was born in grief and melancholic at times.

He is inclined to follow his heart even at the cost of breaking oaths.

He is irremediably incapable to give up mercy and compassion for duty. See the parallels between Rhaegar's likely behaviour with the KotLT and Jon's with Ygritte. Interesting to note that Jon questions his adherence to Ned's mold when faced with the duty vs compassion struggle of Ygritte's execution: He was his father's son. Wasn't he? Wasn't he?

Not to mention the subtly ironic and foreshadowing quality of the passage.

So there's so much more than Ned in Jon... beyond nurture, nature. A brooding complexity which is great part of his appeal as character. He IS a Stark, with Stark blood. He was brought up as a Stark. But thanks the gods he is not a bi-dimensional carbon copy of Ned. It's in the tense moments when he struggles with his 'nurture legacy' (and echoes of a 'nature legacy' affirm themselves) that he fully owns the scene. Full rounded characters are never simply something. Not black or white. Not Ice or Fire. They rather integrate contradictions and complexities, most of times at a dire personal cost. Yeah, Ice... AND Fire.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I'm honored to be in good company, and YES, She-Hulk was AWESOME!

And regarding the poor planning issue, I do the same thing. It's agony for a Capricorn to read this book, because I go back and practically re-strategize everything for Ned and Robb.

If I were Ned:

1). Send daughters back to Winerfell:

2).Don't speak to one "spider," "bird," or cleaning lady, sneak out of KL in the middle of the night, (hey, if Good Sister can do it so can I), and once safely back in Winterfell, THEN send ravens out to every House regarding Cersei/Jaimie findings.

3). Create a new Motto: "Winter came and went, and is never going back:"

If I were Rhaegar:

Before battle, send whore, booze, laced with a little dreamwine and a good luck note:

If I were Robb:

Send Edmure, (how well did I really know him), and best regards to the nuptials, but sadly tell the Freys I couldn't attend because I fell and hit my head and am seeing snarks.

Just ANYTHING other than what they did. :crying:

Exactly! :rofl:

[Fino]

I have a little question and I hope this is the right Thread.

I'm German and I read the German books and when I re-read the first books I found this:

"Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon’s place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them,

as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son." (Posting the German sentence would make no sense ;) ).

The German version and the English version means the same....for me as a non-English speaking person. :laugh:

It means Jon his Ned's son, or not?

[Ygrain]

I have a little question and I hope this is the right Thread.

I'm German and I read the German books and when I re-read the first books I found this:

"Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon’s place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them,

as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son." (Posting the German sentence would make no sense ;) ).

The German version and the English version means the same....for me as a non-English speaking person. :laugh:

It means Jon his Ned's son, or not?

Hello and welcome to the forums :-)

Actually, it means neither - it only relays what Catelyn thinks/knows about the topic.

[The guy from the Vale]

I have a little question and I hope this is the right Thread.

I'm German and I read the German books and when I re-read the first books I found this:

"Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon’s place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them,

as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son." (Posting the German sentence would make no sense ;) ).

The German version and the English version means the same....for me as a non-English speaking person. :laugh:

It means Jon his Ned's son, or not?

As another German speaker, welcome :D (although I only ever read the books in English...)

As for your question, Ygrain already answered that - Catelyn's thoughts on Jon's parentage are no proof whatsoever who his parents are.

[Fino]

As another German speaker, welcome :D (although I only ever read the books in English...)

As for your question, Ygrain already answered that - Catelyn's thoughts on Jon's parentage are no proof whatsoever who his parents are.

Oh...I don't know why but I thought this were Ned's thoughts. :D

Thank you. :)

[bacchys]

Is there any example of a half-Targ boy, from any time in Westeros history, who definitely had no Targ qualities at all?

Aerion, Egg's brother and the first Targaryen Dunk meets. He doesn't look like a Targ at all. Just a drunk.

[Alia of the knife]

Isn't there a Prince Valaar, (I think he was Baelor's son) who is not pure either.

Who was Baelors wife?

[MtnLion]

It'd be a serious flaw. But I don't remember when Ned thinks that Aegon is dead.

He might even think Aegon is dead since he saw the corpses until Lyanna introduced him to the real Aegon.

I remind you that I'm searching for a reason for Hightower to stay at ToJ, and I'm probing the possibility that Aegon were the reason. It'd answer many questions, but flaws have to be cleared.

The reason that Hightower was at the tower when Ned arrived is because Rhaegar had told him to stay and guard his wife. Rhaegar was taking three with him to the Trident, and one of the Kingsguard; Jaime; would stay in the Red Keep with the king. It is all too obvious that three for Rhaegar, and three for Lyanna is a good division, since they are both in hostile territory during the war.

[MtnLion]

I don't think he'll survive the northern winter. I don't know why, but I've never been able to take him in earnest.

Well, I think the TV series has hinted something. Stannis says to Davos that he has seen a great battle in the snow in his visions of hte fires.

[MtnLion]

Sometimes I get lost with unimportant details: Clegane, Lorch.... in the end,

That is part of the problem with discussing things with you. You take license with the story, but fail to get the details correct.

[JonNonRegis]

Rhaenys and Baelor are both said to have had the "Dornish look". Do you know what the Dornish look is? The Dornish look is dark hair and dark eyes. There are three types of Dornishmen Salty, Sandy, and Stony. The Stony Dornishmen like the Daynes of Starfall that are descendents or the first men aren't included when someone describes "The Dornish look" because again they don't come from the Rhoynish like the Sandy and Salty Dornishmen do. So when GRRM says that Rhaenys and Baelor had "the Dornish look" he is saying that they both had dark hair and eyes. If either of them had purple eyes it would have been mentioned the way Bittersteel's eyes were, but it's not mentioned because GRRM told us their eye colors when he he said they both had "the Dornish look" which again is both dark hair and eyes. If they only had dark hair then their look wouldn't have been Dornish because there are plenty of regions in Westeros that have houses with dark hair. What makes the look Dornish is the dark hair as well as dark eyes which Dorne is famous for....

So let me see if I follow your logic.

1. There are three types of Dornishmen.

2. Some, like the Daynes, do not have dark hair and dark eyes. They can have much paler skin and purple eyes, rather like the Targs.

3. Oh, but never mind that. They aren't really Dornish; the only "Dornish look" is that of dark hair and dark eyes.

You see my problem with this, I think.

It's mighty convenient simply to say, blithely, that the Dornish look is only X and certainly cannot be Y, in the face of blatant contradictions supplied in the text.

Similarly, it's a bit of a problem that Ned and Lyanna had no earthly way to be sure, in advance, that Jon would never manifest any Targ trait.

How did they know that would happen? I don't think they did... and if Jon had turned out to have purple eyes and Rhaegar's face, it would be the axe for both him and Ned. I think, instead, that this worry never entered their minds. The issue was instead much simpler: that Ned had no desire to introduce a bastard not of his own making, lying to his wife and everyone else in the process. That's where his shame comes from.

Finally, there is the elephant in the room: Would Ned Stark, so proud of and driven by his stainless honor, really have committed treason -- harbored and raised a secret Targaryen -- for sixteen years in his home, in flat defiance of the known wishes of the king, his good personal friend, who would unquestionably have wanted that boy put to death as a threat to his rule?

I do not think so. Whatever else you may say of Ned, treason is not his thing.

[Maxpey]

So let me see if I follow your logic.

1. There are three types of Dornishmen.

2. Some, like the Daynes, do not have dark hair and dark eyes. They can have much paler skin and purple eyes, rather like the Targs.

3. Oh, but never mind that. They aren't really Dornish; the only "Dornish look" is that of dark hair and dark eyes.

You see my problem with this, I think.

It's mighty convenient simply to say, blithely, that the Dornish look is only X and certainly cannot be Y, in the face of blatant contradictions supplied in the text.

Similarly, it's a bit of a problem that Ned and Lyanna had no earthly way to be sure, in advance, that Jon would never manifest any Targ trait.

How did they know that would happen? I don't think they did... and if Jon had turned out to have purple eyes and Rhaegar's face, it would be the axe for both him and Ned. I think, instead, that this worry never entered their minds. The issue was instead much simpler: that Ned had no desire to introduce a bastard not of his own making, lying to his wife and everyone else in the process. That's where his shame comes from.

Finally, there is the elephant in the room: Would Ned Stark, so proud of and driven by his stainless honor, really have committed treason -- harbored and raised a secret Targaryen -- for sixteen years in his home, in flat defiance of the known wishes of the king, his good personal friend, who would unquestionably have wanted that boy put to death as a threat to his rule?

I do not think so. Whatever else you may say of Ned, treason is not his thing.

Yes he would, if he swore to Lyanna that he would protect Jon from Robert, no matter the cost.

That's why Ned has been tortured for 14 years.

(and this comes from someone who wishes R + L = J was not true).

[MtnLion]

Finally, there is the elephant in the room: Would Ned Stark, so proud of and driven by his stainless honor, really have committed treason -- harbored and raised a secret Targaryen -- for sixteen years in his home, in flat defiance of the known wishes of the king, his good personal friend, who would unquestionably have wanted that boy put to death as a threat to his rule?

I do not think so. Whatever else you may say of Ned, treason is not his thing.

Turn it on its head, and look at it from the perspective of a young Ned who nearly started a war with Robert in King's Landing. They were on a serious falling out, and only Jon Arryn managed to keep the peace, and send Ned to finish the cleanup of the war. Now, with his state of mind in our thoughts, we get to the tower, and Lyanna asks Ned for a promise. A promise that means treason, but to an enemy. Still Ned may have hesitated to give Lyanna his word, because his word is his bond, and he would honor it to his death. Does he really worry about Jon's looks as he matures? Maybe, maybe not, we don't get that information. As it turns out, it doesn't matter, becasue Jon looks like him, and Arya, a true Stark look. Much like Rhaenys took after her mother, in looks.

Ned is about family, first. He broke his honor to favor Sansa, as you might recall. Jon is his family, per his pledge to Lyanna. Some secrets are too dangerous to share with even those you loved. What would Catelyn have done if she knew that harboring Jon would threaten her and the lives of her children. No, too much adds up, about Ned and his honor. Too much makes sense about his thoughts and actions, if Jon is Rhaegar's and Lyanna's true born son.

[FittleLinger]

snip

Yeah, right, Ned who confessed to false treason only to protect someone he loved (his daughters). Don't you see the similarities?

Ned also commited treason when he didn't tell Robert about Cersei and Jaime right away.

I suggest you'd read the first summarizing post of every thread, there are far larger "elephants" there.

[Ygrain]

So let me see if I follow your logic.

1. There are three types of Dornishmen.

2. Some, like the Daynes, do not have dark hair and dark eyes. They can have much paler skin and purple eyes, rather like the Targs.

3. Oh, but never mind that. They aren't really Dornish; the only "Dornish look" is that of dark hair and dark eyes.

You see my problem with this, I think.

It's mighty convenient simply to say, blithely, that the Dornish look is only X and certainly cannot be Y, in the face of blatant contradictions supplied in the text.

This is ridiculous. Not every Swedish person is blonde and blue-eyed, but would you really claim that there is any doubt what “Swedish look” signifies?

There are three types of Dornishmen, out of whom two are described as dark and who occupy the majority of Dorne proper (coast and mainland). The third type lives basically along the border with the rest of Westeros and resemble the common Westeros population. Now, tell me what might be the predominant Dornish look, and why should the people of Westeros label someone’s look as Dornish if they look exactly like everyone else.

BTW, isn’t Arya surprised by Ned Dayne’s non-Dornish look? Just saying.

Similarly, it's a bit of a problem that Ned and Lyanna had no earthly way to be sure, in advance, that Jon would never manifest any Targ trait.

How did they know that would happen? I don't think they did... and if Jon had turned out to have purple eyes and Rhaegar's face, it would be the axe for both him and Ned. I think, instead, that this worry never entered their minds. The issue was instead much simpler: that Ned had no desire to introduce a bastard not of his own making, lying to his wife and everyone else in the process. That's where his shame comes from.

And even if he did resemble Rhaegar, so what? How many people in the North have ever seen him? How many would look for the semblance in Jon’s face? And, seeing Jon developing some tale-telling traits, don’t you think that Ned would have had enough time to come up with some solution?

Finally, there is the elephant in the room: Would Ned Stark, so proud of and driven by his stainless honor, really have committed treason -- harbored and raised a secret Targaryen -- for sixteen years in his home, in flat defiance of the known wishes of the king, his good personal friend, who would unquestionably have wanted that boy put to death as a threat to his rule?

I do not think so. Whatever else you may say of Ned, treason is not his thing.

What stainless honour are you talking about here? You mean how Ned lied through his teeth to his king to protect his wife when she kidnapped Tyrion? Or when he sold his honour to protect Sansa, thus effectively committing treason against Stannis as the rightful heir? There is one thing that Ned values far above his honour, and that’s his family. If protecting those he loves requires treason, then treason is what it takes to protect them. He wouldn’t have harboured a Targ, but the son of his beloved sister, on her deathbed wish? Sure thing.