A Question Why is Sandor and Tyrion Not A Gross Hook Up For Sansa

[DogLover]

Sansa accepting his cloak twice? I'm sure she would have accepted anyone's cloak in those two situations.

In the first instance, yes, but what about the second? As far as the first time, it's not so much that she accepts his cloak to cover herself after being stripped naked, but how it's actually written:

Sandor Clegane unfastened his cloak and tossed it to her. Sansa clutched it against her chest, fists bunched hard in the white wool. The coarse weave was scratchy against her skin, but no velvet ever felt so fine.

As for the second time, that's when she's in her room. Sandor rips off his cloak and leaves it on the floor. She then gets up out of bed and wraps herself in it. She's in her room, so if she's cold, she has other available options, like her bed covers or a clean cloak of her own. Yet she chooses to wrap herself in a blood and smoke stained cloak, which she keeps.

When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pate green ghosts dancing against the stars. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor shivering. ACoK

"I wish the Hound were here." The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night wondering if she had been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. ASoS

Also, regarding Sansa having fantasies about other men, specifically Loras, as others have mentioned, she compares all other men to the Hound, and they don't quite measure up. In AFfC, she thinks of Loras, but then her thoughts drift to the unkiss:

Ser Loras had given Sansa Stark a red rose once, but he had never kissed her... As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. "He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak."

[Juli]

Also about the F**k her bloody, thing he was crushed when he heard about her marrying Tryion, I would think he was there when Tryion's first wife was.

[DogLover]

Also about the F**k her bloody, thing he was crushed when he heard about her marrying Tryion, I would think he was there when Tryion's first wife was.

Yes, he would most certainly know about what happened to Tysha. I posted about this on page three. I interpret the "fucked her bloody" comment as an indictment against Tyrion and Sandor's own horror at what he imagines can happen to Sansa.

[Booknerd2]

He spews stuff out and can't back it up....with the ladies. Nor does he want to as far as physically hurting either girls. To him, the verbal inappropriateness does not register with him. He is not polished in that way.

He was never hurting Sansa and he never hurt Arya. All talk. He is gruff with both of them and scares the hell out of them at times. Well, maybe more Sansa than Arya. But more like, he acts like a complete idiot around them, especially Sansa.

The f*** her bloody was being angry and cursing at the situation. I always thought it was like cursing fate or himself. Like, she would have been better off with me of all people than Tyrion.

Just my opinion.

[Woman of War]

Yes, he would most certainly know about what happened to Tysha. I posted about this on page three. I interpret the "fucked her bloody" comment as an indictment against Tyrion and Sandor's own horror at what he imagines can happen to Sansa.

It is not impossible that Sandor not only knows what happened to Tysha but that he was part of it, though there is certainly no proof of it. And don't tell me "he would never have done something like that since he is our favorite character". Tyrion may not recognize Sandor as part of the gang rape since he for sure had no eye for the guards at that situation. How else would Sandor know more than rumors but details about what really happened to Tysha? Maybe he'll do a "Jaime" if Tyrion and he should ever meet again and tell Tyrion what he knows, even help him find Tysha. Well, IF since I hope that Sandor has found some peace where he is.

That would explain the somewhat irrational dislike from Sandor's side against Tyrion since Tyrion's mere presence may remind him of a horrible crime.

[Booknerd2]

My only thing is...and I can't remember...was the Mountain there too? Was that stated or am I thinking of Elia?

[DogLover]

It is not impossible that Sandor not only knows what happened to Tysha but that he was part of it, though there is certainly no proof of it. And don't tell me "he would never have done something like that since he is our favorite character". Tyrion may not recognize Sandor as part of the gang rape since he for sure had no eye for the guards at that situation. How else would Sandor know more than rumors but details about what really happened to Tysha? Maybe he'll do a "Jaime" if Tyrion and he should ever meet again and tell Tyrion what he knows, even help him find Tysha. Well, IF since I hope that Sandor has found some peace where he is.

That would explain the somewhat irrational dislike from Sandor's side against Tyrion since Tyrion's mere presence may remind him of a horrible crime.

I won't tell you that Sandor didn't do it merely because he's my favorite character. And while it isn't necessarily impossible, it is highly unlikely based on what's included in the text and what's lacking from the text. There is nothing that connects Sandor to the Tysha incident. Also, Tyrion would certainly know if Sandor participated since Sandor has a face that's hard to forget and Tyrion specifically tells Bronn that Tywin forced him to watch (at this time, I believe Sandor is Cersei's bodyguard, so Tyrion would certainly know who he is):

They paid her fair enough. A silver for each man, how many whores command that high a price? He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me watch...

Tyrion has a POV and spends a great deal of time thinking about Tysha, yet he never connects Sandor to the event even though Sandor is an ingrained part of the Lannister/Baratheon household.

Who said Sandor knows actual details rather than rumors? It could be rumored that Tyrion gladly participated, and considering how much Cersei hates Tyrion, who knows what shitty things she's been saying about Tyrion. But it is clear that, as contemptuous as Sandor is of most people, he is especially contemptuous of Tyrion.

As far as pulling a Jaime, I'm not sure what you really mean. Tyrion witnessed the crime. The soldiers who participated witnessed Tyrion's presence. And, considering how much Sandor hates Tyrion, if they ever meet again, I wouldn't be surprised if Sandor kills, or at least attempts to kill, Tyrion.

[Winter's Knight]

Just for reference's sake, Jane Austen's Emma is 16 years younger than Mr. Knightley.

She was also twenty one if I remember correctly-as was Lizzie and even Fanny Price was eighteen.

[Le Cygne]

Great answer, DogLover! :) Also he called the kind of men who did that "rats".

Let's stick to the text, we were almost all getting along for a while there.

More age differences.

Sense & Sensibility, Marianne, 16, Colonel Brandon, 35

Amy Dorrit, 22, Arthur Clennam, 38

Jane Eyre, 18, Mr. Rochester 38+

[Holdfast]

Great answer, DogLover! :) Also he called the kind of men who did that "rats".

Let's stick to the text, we were almost all getting along for a while there.

More age differences.

Sense & Sensibility, Marianne, 16, Colonel Brandon, 35

Amy Dorrit, 22, Arthur Clennam, 38

Jane Eyre, 18, Mr. Rochester 38+

Another literary example of a successful relationship despite a large age difference:

Little Women: Jo March and Friedrich Bhaer - 20 years.

[A wilding]

40ish men marrying girls of 20 was a commonplace in the upper reaches of British society a century or more ago (as in many other societies). A man would make his fortune, often abroad, and would then settle down, buy or build a mansion, marry a young fertile wife and raise a family. This is why Victorian and Edwardian society was full of formidable old ladies whose husbands had died years before.

As for Sandor or Gregor being part of Tysha's rape: Tywin selected a barracks of guardsmen to do it. The Cleganes are from a minor noble family and are knights. It is unlikely that either of them were ever just ordinary Lannister guards living in barracks.

[Lord Freypie]

My only thing is...and I can't remember...was the Mountain there too? Was that stated or am I thinking of Elia?

It wasn't stated, and I think Tyrion would have remembered him even more than Sandor I think.

+ Sandor joined Lannister service as a mercenary the day Gregor became lords after the strange death of their father in an hunting accident. Gregor had his own castle and no reason to be in Lannisters guard.

IMO none of the Clegane was there, Sandor was probably serving the Lannisters in King's Landing protecting the Queen, and Gregor in his castle.

That said I find strange the angelification of Sandor by some, what do you think more likely, that he is a virgin, that he had an happy sentimental and sexual life, or that this disfigured heavy drinker had the same kind of sexuality as Tyrion including whoring and eventually rape ? For all the examples we got having been a mercenary working for the Lannisters, he is not unlikely to have done even worse things at some point of his life, even if he looks like he may be past that.

All that to be in denial part of the appeal of this story (like every tales using beauty and the best archetypes) is based on rape fantasies (or more exactly it's an un-rape fantasy, where the potential rapist turn into a prince charming), which look rather absurd considering this analysis of stories using B&B archetypes* is made by the psychanalysts analyzing fairytales since they are studied. When Martin use this trope and make Sandor threathen Sansa at knife point it's not gratuitous it's to trigger something (whatever the intentions of that fictionnal character may be argued to have been).

And when following that she develops fantasies about him and "his cruel mouth pressing down on her own" up to developping false memories of that (a psychanalyst would probably diagnosis a symptom of some form of erotomania there), it clearly show Sansa herself is not alien to these fantasies (which is logical as she is a victim of repeated rape threats and according to psychology litterature the source of this kind of fantasies is often a mental reconstruction to make bearable some awful memories).

* It may less apply to brother Grimm's version of Beauty of the Beast, which is one of the less sexualized tale based on these archetypes, being a rewritting on an already expurged litterary fairytale of the 18th century, by de Villeneuve, where beauty and beast aren't even married. But the beauty and the beast archetypes as they appear in oral tradition, are far more sexualized in other tales, where the beast-to-become-prince is also more violent (he's not just an ugly good guy, but a guy behaving like a beast until he become the prince charming).

For example there are several traditionnal tales where the beast archetype is also the bluebeard archetype, the beast-prince killing his wifes during their wedding night, while the beauty is the third daughter sold by her parents to be forcibly married to him, each having the occasion to perform a good action -usually helping an old woman carry something-, but only her doing it, she is then advised by the old woman she must wear 7 robes for her wedding night, and when she undresses a layer of the beast skin is removed with each, untill it reveals the prince charming hidden behind.

In another, a little closer from Grimm's version, the beast who never stop to threaten to kill Beauty's father obtain more and more from her, asking her to live with him, speak with him, marry him, let him untie her hair, look at him,... and it's beauty realising he is weeping when asking, and forestalling his next (and seventh) desire by kissing him that turns the beast into a prince charming.

(That Sansa sings to Sandor a part of the hymn of the seven may even be a subtile allusion to these tales where B&B archetypes are associated with the number 7, 7 robes or 7 tasks to turn the beast into prince charming.)

By the way Sansa-Tyrion and Sansa-Sandor are two variant of the b&b tale,

Sansa-Tyrion including the beauty living with the beast part of the Grimm's/Villeneuve's tale (in some twisted way, as in the traditionnal version beauty is given to the beast / or offer herself to live with him to save her father's life, while in Martin's world she already failed at that and is given to the beast by his killers), is closer to the popular version (except the beauty refusing to marry and the beast not insisting of the prude Grimm's tale, is replaced by Sansa forcibly married but not wanting to have sex and Tyrion not forcing her) with very similar thematics, but as Martin diverts fantasy tropes, he deconstructs that fairytale as well :

B&B Grimm's version : "Marry such an ugly monster? She would rather die! But she did not want to hurt the feelings of one who, after all, had been kind to her."

But Martin, while making Sansa recognize Tyrion's kindness, answers with : "Why should I spare his feelings when nobody care about mine ?"

Grimm's version (after beauty refuse to marry) : "I quite understand! And I'm not offended by your refusal!" [said the Beast]. Life went on as usual, and nothing further was said"

Tyrion's : "that is why the gods made whores for imps like me." then life went on too, and they too never speak about the tabboo topic again, but "His marriage was a daily agony. (...) Sansa's misery was deepening every day. Tyrion would gladly have broken through her courtesy to give her what solace he might, but it was no good".

Grimm : "Then it started to say a few kind words, till in the end, Beauty was amazed to discover that she was actually enjoying its conversation. The days passed, and Beauty and the Beast became good friends."

Martin : "No words would ever make him fair in her eyes. Or any less a Lannister.."

D&D seem to have decided to be closer to Grimm there, making them look like potential friends in the show before Sansa learns about the Red Wedding.

Grimm "And the Beast would sit, for hours on end, only a short distance away, silently gazing at her."

Sansa "Why is he looking at me that way? (...) He looks like a starving child, but I have no food to give him. Why won't he leave me be?"

Etc...

And finally fairytale become a complete horror story when it touches the part where Beast offers Beauty who is missing her family a way to see them...

Grimm "One day, the Beast presented Beauty with a magnificent magic mirror. When Beauty peeped into it, she could see her family, far away."You won't feel so lonely now,""

Tyrion "You have never asked me how Robb died, or your lady mother."

Sandor-Sansa story has less direct links with Grimm version, mostly the archetypes (and even, Sandor, out of being disfigured, has less common points than Tyrion with the most common fairytale beast-to-become-prince character who is usually either immensely rich either already prince if not charming).

He is also far to be kind with Sansa, doing no less than threatening to kill her in their first intimate dialog (also giving him a bluebeard aspect as it's killing her if she reveals his secret), then threatening her knife in hand to obtain something in their second key conversation (which also explain the Sandor-Ilyn Payne parallel in Sansa's dreams someone mentionned above, Sandor has good reasons to be associated with death), which make him closer to some oral tradition frightening versions of the beast than to brother Grimm's ugly cool guy, which is to oral tradition Beast archetype what Disney's version is to Grimm's one.

But it's perhaps why it's more likely to work in a world like Martin's, as dark as the true myths.

[Minsc]

That said I find strange the angelification of Sandor by some, what do you think more likely, that he is a virgin, that he had an happy sentimental and sexual life, or that this disfigured heavy drinker had the same kind of sexuality as Tyrion including whoring and eventually rape ?

Jaime directly says at one point that rape doesn't sound like something that Sandor would do when he hears about Rorge's pillaging of the Salt Plains while wearing Sandor's helm.

[DogLover]

That said I find strange the angelification of Sandor by some, what do you think more likely, that he is a virgin, that he had an happy sentimental and sexual life, or that this disfigured heavy drinker had the same kind of sexuality as Tyrion including whoring and eventually rape ? For all the examples we got having been a mercenary working for the Lannisters, he is not unlikely to have done even worse things at some point of his life, even if he looks like he may be past that.

I haven't seen any angelification of Sandor in this thread. Saying he isn't a rapist isn't the same as calling him a virgin. After all, Varys did tell Tyrion that Sandor goes to brothels. But as Minsc pointed out, Jaime, who hates rape and punishes rapists, thinks to himself that that crime does not sound like something Sandor would commit, but it does sound like Gregor. Sandor hates Gregor and has actively tried to separate himself from his brother, whom he also considers a monster. Sandor is a killer, but he kills quickly and efficiently. He does not seem to relish prolonging the pain and suffering of a victim.

[Le Cygne]

Loved when Jaime had SI cut off Pia's rapist's head, then hand it to her, and she smiled.

And in super mega pain and dying, all Sandor could think about was what Sansa had to go through at Kings Landing. Nobody else remembered, but he couldn't forget.

That's why I like those two characters. Not angels, but put themselves in the woman's shoes, and gave a damn.

Another age difference -

Rebecca - Mrs. De W (the author made a bet she'd write a whole book and never name her heroine), 18 or so

Maxim De Winter, 40

[Booknerd2]

It does seem apparent that he truly thought he was dying and Arya thought so to.

And, yeah, it does seem that his "last" thoughts are of Sansa and feeling bad that if he took her she might not have had to suffer more of what he had witnessed at KL, and now imagined what was going on now that she had married Tyrion. Because worst case scenario for his Bird was totally going through his mind.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Who said Sandor knows actual details rather than rumors? It could be rumored that Tyrion gladly participated, and considering how much Cersei hates Tyrion, who knows what shitty things she's been saying about Tyrion. But it is clear that, as contemptuous as Sandor is of most people, he is especially contemptuous of Tyrion.

Honestly, I don't think Tysha is a big part of Sandor's hate for Tyrion. I think it was something more simple. He was Cersei's and then Joffery's sworn shield. Tyrion didn't get along with either of them and was constantly an asshole to them. Regardless of how much either deserved it, Sandor probably only saw Tyrion as an asshole since that would be more or less his only contact with him. It's also quite possible Tyrion included him in those barbs.

I just think including Sandor into the Tysha subplot is unnecessary and kind of random after five books with no mention of it.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't think he would hate someone just for rape. He didn't have any sympathy for Lollys.

[DogLover]

Honestly, I don't think Tysha is a big part of Sandor's hate for Tyrion. I think it was something more simple. He was Cersei's and then Joffery's sworn shield. Tyrion didn't get along with either of them and was constantly an asshole to them. Regardless of how much either deserved it, Sandor probably only saw Tyrion as an asshole since that would be more or less his only contact with him. It's also quite possible Tyrion included him in those barbs.

I just think including Sandor into the Tysha subplot is unnecessary and kind of random after five books with no mention of it.

I don't think it plays a big part, but I think it influenced his choice of wording when he was trying to provoke Arya into killing him. I definitely think Tyrion's attitude toward him and Cersei's own feelings toward Tyrion contributed to Sandor's hatred for Tyrion.

ETA: Just to be clear, I brought up Sandor's contempt for Tyrion in response to WoW's scenario that Sandor would pull a "Jaime." Since Sandor hates Tyrion, I don't know why he would go out if his way to do anything for him.

[Booknerd2]

Bleary-eyed tired and I totally missed the response to my query regarding if the Mountain or Sandor or both were at the Tyrion/Tysha/Tywin incident.

Sandor left the Clegane lands after his dad died. Surely, he thought he was next to die. So, I thought he entered Lannsiter service. I was under the impression he did that a few years before he became Joff's "dog" right? I would think he would have to prove himself a bit and let Cersei gauge his personality before he got near her precious Joff. You would think she would have reservations after the brother's rep. Some people are cautious and think that way...

For some reason, I couldn't picture them both at the Tysha thing. And I could be totally wrong. But I always imagined it would be awkward for the two of them being both in the Lannister's service and in too close a proximity.

Until the tourney when Sandor jumped in for Loras, I would imagine both brother's ignored each other, stayed out of each other's way, etc. Nothing was said so it is up in the air for speculation.