R+L=J v.55

[MtnLion]

This make perfect sense for the rebels to speed the coronation up to the earliest possible date once they take the Iron Throne. They need all of the Westerosi houses who have sided with Aerys to see that the war is over and Robert is their new king. They won't like it, but that Robert sits the throne in King's Landing and is crowned King is a powerful symbol to everyone.

Thanks for digging that up. Here is how I visualized what we know, and my memory of what was written obviously needed to be refreshed. Jaime slew Aerys and sat on the throne. Ned arrived and stared Jaime down. Robert arrived, and someone handed him the crown, and he promptly sat on the throne and held court. The bodies were brought in, and the fit hit the shan. We are talking about minutes, maybe an hour, but certainly a single day. Ned is not going to be able contain his anger, and Jon Arryn is not going to be able to separate Ned and Robert if he delays. It is not going to be a matter of days or weeks as has been postulated.

ETA: Anything that is not drinking and whoring time is a drag for Robert. I just can't see either of them delaying anything. ;)

[Old-Growth]

I'm saying he would choose credible sources not just a webpage on the internet that anyone can edit. I'm sure he would rather talk to someone in the medical field than type "peurpural fever" into google and go with it. As for factual mistakes, this seems like a big descrepency. (The Timeline, which was my main point, not whether childbirth could kill her).

Ahem... IIRC, There was no Google when our author wrote the first book of the series, or at any rate it was rather underdeveloped.

[Old-Growth]

Just contact "Mladen," she is the OP and VERY nice.

A he actually, and one of the few men who regularly post in Pawn to Player :) Spoken as one who irregularly posts in that thread.

[Old-Growth]

If Martin has been consistent with one thing, it's being inconsistent with timing. From his publishing schedule to character movements even to length of pregnancy (Lollys had a horribly premature babe that apparently came out just fine). He's even stated several times in interviews and at book signings that he didn't nail down the timeline perfectly when he was writing. Hell, he spent five years trying to work out the Meereenese knot and there are still discrepancies in timeline.

Also, the Meereenese knot is not fully untied as of yet. According to a recent SSM there is still one more to arrive in Meereen, as of the present. The one more is Marwyn the Mage, I take it, but Martin did not actually give a name.

[Alia of the knife]

A he actually, and one of the few men who regularly post in Pawn to Player :) Spoken as one who irregularly posts in that thread.

That's right.

We just PM'd each other, but I never paid attention, lol.

HE is VERY nice, and very helpful with any questions.

[FrozenFire3]

Hey folks- just looking back and this thread has already covered fireproof Targs, TPtWP/Three heads, KG @ ToJ, obstetrics and timeline. I think we hit all the major themes in under 500 posts (if we missed any there's still time ;))

Nice one! :cheers:

Gods, I can't believe we are back to square one. Again. The Tower of Sorrow LOL

As for obstetrics and timeline, I'll quote the father of medicine himself, Hippocrates of Kos, who operated in a world comparable (hygiene/diagnostics/therapies wise) to the one created by Martin.

From the Corpus Hippocraticum, book 1 of the Epidemics:

In Thasus, the wife of Philinus, having been delivered of a daughter, the discharge being natural, and other matters going on mildly, on the fourteenth day after delivery was seized with fever, attended with rigor.

He goes on describing her symptoms: abdominal pain, shivering, convulsions, delirium. She dies after a 20 days long agony :(

The wife of Epicrates, who was lodged at the house of Archigetes, being near the term of delivery, was seized with a violent rigor, and, as was said, she did not become heated; next day the same. On the third, she was delivered of a daughter, and everything went on properly. On the day following her delivery, she was seized with acute fever [...]

A very long account of her symptoms and day by day illness evolution follows. She survives but:

She was freed from the fever on the eightieth day.

Here you have two examples of puerperal fever's lenght in Westeros analogue conditions. And this settle any doubts about Lyanna lingering 'a bit too long' after Jon's birth.

As for the bed of blood, as already pointed out by Ygrain, bleeding after delivery can last up to 42 days (6 weeks). Blood loss can be significant and quite debilitating for the puerpera. I'm not mentioning random medical sources. I'm talking by personal experience (38 freaking days, with my poor iron and minerals blood levels close to null). So, incontrovertible LOL

Last and least... obstetrical consideration: why should Lyanna's death in childbed be so far-fetched when complications in childbirth were a leading cause of death among women in ancient times? More important, why should it be so when Martin has already paved the way with a very telling list of precedents? Joanna, Minisa, Rhaella all died in spite of being in relatively 'protected' environments and having all the maester assistance required.

The clues - narrative, symbolic and... pseudo-medical - are all there. The rest is an attempt at 'climbing on the mirrors' (literally translated from my mother tongue, a colourful expression for 'grasping at straws) :lol:

[Ygrain]

As for the bed of blood, as already pointed out by Ygrain, bleeding after delivery can last up to 42 days (6 weeks). Blood loss can be significant and quite debilitating for the puerpera. I'm not mentioning random medical sources. I'm talking by personal experience (38 freaking days, with my poor iron and minerals blood levels close to null). So, incontrovertible LOL

Aye. In Czech, the period is even called "six-weeks" and the woman a "sixweeker". I bled for a about a week shorter, but the first week quite profoundly.

[Alia of the knife]

And childbirth is still risky in 2013.

My co-workers sister works in the medical field, and one of the pharmaceutical reps., 27 years old, former Lacrosse player who was still an active athlete, so she was physically strong, died in the hospital giving birth to twins.

Childbirth is not "routine," but can still be dangerous even with the best care and in the best environment with the best doctors.

[Ygrain]

Gosh, I don't believe I've overlooked such an obvious conclusion... has this been discussed?

- Based on the comparison between Rhaegar and Robert which Ned makes after visiting Barra:

Robert whores - Robert fathers bastards

Rhaegar wasn't the type to whore - Rhaegar wasn't the type to father bastards

(Credits to http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/94174-jon-snows-birth-status-neds-thoughts/ for kicking my thought processes)

[Dio Forel]

Gosh, I don't believe I've overlooked such an obvious conclusion... has this been discussed?

- Based on the comparison between Rhaegar and Robert which Ned makes after visiting Barra:

Robert whores - Robert fathers bastards

Rhaegar wasn't the type to whore - Rhaegar wasn't the type to father bastards

(Credits to http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/94174-jon-snows-birth-status-neds-thoughts/ for kicking my thought processes)

That is actually a good point.

[Ygrain]

He may not be the type to be with whores but he was the type to have an ongoing affair. That makes him the type to father a bastard....

Not if he married Lyanna as his second wife. I believe you have heard about the Targaryen polygamy.

[Dio Forel]

Not if he married Lyanna as his second wife. I believe you have heard about the Targaryen polygamy.

I edited my post. If you meant it shows Ned isnt the type to father a bastard, based on the thought process, I agree.

But Rhaegar was the type. It wasnt known to Westeros that he was married to Lyanna, if he was, so technically its still fathering a bastard.

[Twinslayer]

But Jaime makes the same comparison between himself and Tyrion. Jaime says that he himself does not go with whores but Tyrion does.

And we know Jaime fathers bastards. As far as we know, Tyrion does not.

[Ygrain]

I edited my post. If you meant it shows Ned isnt the type to father a bastard, based on the thought process, I agree.

But Rhaegar was the type. It wasnt known to Westeros that he was married to Lyanna, if he was, so technically its still fathering a bastard.

Eh... what does the Westerosi knowledge have to do with the validity of the marriage if the ceremony did take place? Aye, Ned's knowledge would matter, but he happens to be one of few people who might actually know.

But Jaime makes the same comparison between himself and Tyrion. Jaime says that he himself does not go with whores but Tyrion does.

And we know Jaime fathers bastards. As far as we know, Tyrion does not.

And which of the two is supposed to be the honourable one?

[Twinslayer]

And which of the two is supposed to be the honourable one?

The point is that someone -- like Rhaegar or Jaime -- who does not go to whores can still have shit for honour. And he can still father bastards.

[Ygrain]

The point is that someone -- like Rhaegar or Jaime -- who does not go to whores can still have shit for honour. And he can still father bastards.

The problem is that Rhaegar was honourable.

ETA: Not to mention that Robert didn't father all of his bastards on whores.

[FrozenFire3]

I believe Ygrain's was a strictly in context semantic parallel, not a generalized metaphor :rolleyes:

[Dio Forel]

Eh... what does the Westerosi knowledge have to do with the validity of the marriage if the ceremony did take place? Aye, Ned's knowledge would matter, but he happens to be one of few people who might actually know.

And which of the two is supposed to be the honourable one?

Because Rhaegar is dead and no wedding was known to have taken place. Lyanna was supposedly a captive... So unless proof of a wedding is revealed... Jon would still be a bastard.

Honestly I am sure something did happen ceremony wise... Or was planned to happen... But with the facts available now hed be a bastard.

[Dio Forel]

The problem is that Rhaegar was honourable.

ETA: Not to mention that Robert didn't father all of his bastards on whores.

Rhaegar was definitely honorable... Jaime is in some ways too. Killing Aerys was as honorable as you can get. He saved the realm and is forever condemned for it. That is pretty hard to live with on a daily basis.

[Ygrain]

Because Rhaegar is dead and no wedding was known to have taken place. Lyanna was supposedly a captive... So unless proof of a wedding is revealed... Jon would still be a bastard.

Honestly I am sure something did happen ceremony wise... Or was planned to happen... But with the facts available now hed be a bastard.

Sorry but if the wedding did take place but it is not generally known then he is considered a bastard while not being one. What you claim is like saying that there is no sound of a falling tree if there is no-one to hear it.