R+L=J v.55

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I'm saying she was dying for two weeks at a minimum. That's still assuming that Ned could do all his traveling (in a warzone no less!) and cleaning up the aftermaths of war withing a freaking month. It's not like he spent a few hours at both KL and SE before taking off again. That's some fast traveling and fast talking. 8 weeks is more likely and Lyanna dying for over a month even less likely

I'm saying he would choose credible sourses not just a webpage on the internet that anyone can edit. I'm sure he would rather talk to someone in the medical field than type "peurpural fever" into google and go with it. As for factual mistakes, this seems like a big descrepency. (The Timeline, which was my main point, not whether childbirth could kill her).

Edit: Whether vs weather

One of the reasons we are all convinced of this theory being quite reasonable is that we have done exactly this. Somewhere back in the mid-40's we consulted an obstetrician who agreed that the scenario we presented is 100% medically reasonable. Like I said before, we've been down this road a time or three ;)

[Aderyn the Sly]

Just another little thing to add into the timeline discussion (if it helps any-I suck with timeline stuff).

I think it's also important to keep in mind that while the general length of pregnancy is 40 weeks (equating to about nine months or nine moons), children can be born any time before (pre-mature though I doubt a child would be able survive a premature condition in this time without serious complications) and well over the due date. When I gave birth to my daughter I was two weeks overdue and a lot of the moms in my moms group (who were also first time moms) had been needed to be induced as well (42 weeks is the standard around here).

Obviously it was unlikely, if not impossible, that a birth in this time period would be induced so for a first time mom like Lyanna, she could have easily had a longer pregnancy than a a woman like Rhaella who had already given birth twice (something about the body and how it reacts to the baby and what's happening). So unless it's stated that each pregnancy was exactly nine months, some flexibility should be taken into account.

It's stated that Daenerys was born "nine moons after fleeing to dragonstone" and the discussion came beacuse GRRM state that Jon was born 8 or 9 months before Dany. The length of the pregnancy is irrelevant since we have a relative "birthday" as it were. But having a premature or a late birth would certainly add complications to either women.

[MtnLion]

It's stated that Daenerys was born "nine moons after fleeing to dragonstone" and the discussion came beacuse GRRM state that Jon was born 8 or 9 months before Dany. The length of the pregnancy is irrelevant since we have a relative "birthday" as it were. But having a premature or a late birth would certainly add complications to either women.

Correction, Daenerys said nine moons after they fled to Dragonstone, but she is in no position to know with any accuracy. Is it possible that Jon was born later than we think, and that Daenerys has a different daddy?

[Jon Icefyre]

I'm saying he would choose credible sourses not just a webpage on the internet that anyone can edit. I'm sure he would rather talk to someone in the medical field than type "peurpural fever" into google and go with it. As for factual mistakes, this seems like a big descrepency. (The Timeline, which was my main point, not whether childbirth could kill her).

Edit: Whether vs weather

Actually I'm not so sure he would, GRRM has already said in past interviews that he has modified Westeros genetics in the story from real world genetics in order to make the story work the way he wanted. So why wouldn't he do the same thing for puerperal fever? The point is, this insistence you clearly have to rule death by childbirth out of the equation simply because of some technicality concerning the length of the sickness in the real world, is quite silly, when you consider GRRM has already shown us he'll modify certain aspects of the real world when he needs to, in order to make his story work.

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm saying she was dying for two weeks at a minimum. That's still assuming that Ned could do all his traveling (in a warzone no less!) and cleaning up the aftermaths of war withing a freaking month. It's not like he spent a few hours at both KL and SE before taking off again. That's some fast traveling and fast talking. 8 weeks is more likely and Lyanna dying for over a month even less likely

Frankly, I don't see the issues with him tying up the war stuff in a month. It's not like he was battling along the way. He's no need to linger at Storm's End.

I'm saying he would choose credible sourses not just a webpage on the internet that anyone can edit. I'm sure he would rather talk to someone in the medical field than type "peurpural fever" into google and go with it. As for factual mistakes, this seems like a big descrepency. (The Timeline, which was my main point, not weather childbirth could kill her).

There are a number of discrepancies in the timeline. For example (I mentioned this above) Cat moved through the Riverlands at a ridiculously fast speed.

You seem to have set your timeline in a specific way without providing any support for it. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that the author is not always on top of his own timeline or thinking the author is infallible or that he doesn't play fast and loose with certain things, like how long a woman might wallow in fever after birth.

But, if it makes you feel better, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that Lyanna incurred another open wound while lying in her bed of blood (aka the birthing bed where she was also recovering). Maybe she got knicked by a knitting needle, maybe she was tired of being confined and tried to draw a sword and she got knicked in the process, perhaps in the process of checking her birthing wounds, Wylla forgot to wash her hands and had just messed with a pig. Ned still thinks that Lyanna died dye to complications in childbirth which sems to indicate that Jon wasn't much older than a couple of weeks.

[Aderyn the Sly]

Frankly, I don't see the issues with him tying up the war stuff in a month. It's not like he was battling along the way. He's no need to linger at Storm's End.

The Tyrells wouldn't have bent their knees the second he arrived. They would talk. Look at the aftermath of the War of Five Kings. Those who were Loyal to Robb until the ended didn't surrender instantaniously. They wanted to ensure pardons. Exchange hostages (if there are). They would want to confirm that what Ned was true, and not just a ploy. They would send their own ravens to their allies. Moreso with King's Landing and all the chaos there. And if we look at other births that killed the mother they seem to be instantanious or within hours, let alone days or weeks (Oberyn tells Tyrion that word of his birth and mother's death reach Oldtown when they were on their way to meet him Tyrion was about 2 weeks (possibly less) when they finally get to Casterly Rock.)

Here was my original interpertation of events:

...

2. (And more importantly IMO) The timeline doesn't fit. Dany was born on Dragonstone about 9 months after fleeing the Red Keep (also confirmed in book one) and GRRM confirmed that Jon was born 8 or 9 months before Daenerys. Which means that Jon was born about the time of the Battle at the Trident, or no more than a month after (it wasn't until this battle was lost that Aerys sent his wife and young Viserys to Dragonstone). Now, Ned goes to KL with his host because Robert was injured. It takes Robert some time to heal enough to travel, then he likely traveled slower due to his injuries. Ned is at KL and with Tywin seems to be clearing out the city of those who remained loyal to the Targaryens, (Tywin gave them the choice between death or the wall, yada, yada, yada...). Ned is there when Robert finally arrieves, Robert is corrinated. Roberts pardons Slemy and Pycelle and Jaime which him and Ned fight about. (So we know Ned was there until after Robert arrives and is Corrinated). Ned rides for Storm's End and lifts the seige. Something happens and he goes to the TOJ. Granted, KL > Storm's End > Dornish Marshes isn't that far, but still, Jon will have been at least 2 months old by the time Ned gets to the TOJ. And that seems to fit with Jon's age compared to both Dany and Robb. And if Jon was 2 months old, why would Lyanna be dying from a birth that long after it happens. (even eclampsia in the real world wouldn't kill that long after childbirth).

and...

Even if it was 8 months and he was born a month after the trident, it still seems like he would be about a month old and it would be too late for her to die of complications, here's how I came to this:

1. It's said in book 1 that it takes about two weeks to get to King's Landing from the Trident. Lets assume it takes at least 3 for Robert because of his injuries.
   
   
2. And he gets to KL and there's a lot to sort out with those who surrendered and make plans for his corination, at least another week.
   
   
3. Looking at a map the distance between KL and Storms End is about the same (by the road) as it is to the Trident. At least another two weeks for Ned to get there. (Possibly longer because the road goes through the Kingswood Forest)
   
   
4. It didn't take a day to get them all to surrender, maybe another week (possibly half of one)
   
   
5. At least 1 week to get to the ToJ.
   

So it's at least 8 weeks (1 and a half months) for Ned to get to the ToJ. So Jon would be between 3 weeks to 2 months old (Depending if it was 8 or 9, and if it took longer than the 8 weeks). Even 3 weeks seems like a stretch for Lyanna to be dying. Even Puerperal fever would take no longer than a week, and eclampsia within 48 hours.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Quite true, it is the plan going into motion that leads to the firing. It would be silly to risk the city with wildfire if the Trident had been a crown victory. But, we are talking about Aerys. His responses were way over the top, but the plan going into motion was probably post Trident.

Here is the passage, quoted in its entirety:

He floated in heat, in memory. “After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King’s Landing. Beneath Baelor’s Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself. “Everything was done in the utmost secrecy by a handful of master pyromancers. They did not even trust their own acolytes to help. The queen’s eyes had been closed for years, and Rhaegar was busy marshaling an army. But Aerys’s new mace-and-dagger Hand was not utterly stupid, and with Rossart, Belis, and Garigus coming and going night and day, he became suspicious. Chelsted, that was his name, Lord Chelsted.” It had come back to him suddenly, with the telling. “I’d thought the man craven, but the day he confronted Aerys he found some courage somewhere. He did all he could to dissuade him. He reasoned, he jested, he threatened, and finally he begged. When that failed he took off his chain of office and flung it down on the floor. Aerys burnt him alive for that, and hung his chain about the neck of Rossart, his favorite pyromancer. The man who had cooked Lord Rickard Stark in his own armor. And all the time, I stood by the foot of the Iron Throne in my white plate, still as a corpse, guarding my liege and all his sweet secrets. “My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father’s son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all.” He remembered how Rossart’s eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. “Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I’ll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him . . . that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash. “Ned Stark was racing south with Robert’s van, but my father’s forces reached the city first. Pycelle convinced the king that his Warden of the West had come to defend him, so he opened the gates. The one time he should have heeded Varys, and he ignored him. My father had held back from the war, brooding on all the wrongs Aerys had done him and determined that House Lannister should be on the winning side. The Trident decided him. “It fell to me to hold the Red Keep, but I knew we were lost. I sent to Aerys asking his leave to make terms. My man came back with a royal command. ‘Bring me your father’s head, if you are no traitor.’ Aerys would have no yielding. Lord Rossart was with him, my messenger said. I knew what that meant. “When I came on Rossart, he was dressed as a common man-at-arms, hurrying to a postern gate. I slew him first. Then I slew Aerys, before he could find someone else to carry his message to the pyromancers.

My reading of this hinges on the bold parts. Aerys' paranoia escalates after Tywin does not respond. He has the pyromancers begin laying the caches. Rhaegar is possibly still present when Chelsted confronts Aerys about the plot (and thus possibly still present when Aerys rapes Rhaella later that night) Rhaegar and Darry depart for the Trident (we know together, based on Jaime's last memory of Rhaegar) and when word of the defeat reaches KL, Rhaella is sent away, after which Aerys threatens to deploy the wildfire, leading to Jaime assassinating him and killing Rossart, and later the other pyromancers. This compresses the timeline between Rhaegar's departure and the Sack to two weeks (based on the length of Rossart's Hand-ship) but that actually seems reasonable, since we've already shown that the distance can be travelled in far less than the two weeks it took Cersei's ridiculous wheelhouse. It also leaves Rhaella parked at KL for a good while (a week or so?) after the rape. So the question is, does any other text actually rule that out?

[Dr. Pepper]

The Tyrells wouldn't have bent their knees the second he arrived. They would talk. Look at the aftermath of the War of Five Kings. Those who were Loyal to Robb until the ended didn't surrender instantaniously. They wanted to ensure pardons. Exchange hostages (if there are). They would want to confirm that what Ned was true, and not just a ploy. They would send their own ravens to their allies. Moreso with King's Landing and all the chaos there. And if we look at other births that killed the mother they seem to be instantanious or within hours, let alone days or weeks (Oberyn tells Tyrion that word of his birth and mother's death reach Oldtown when they were on their way to meet him Tyrion was about 2 weeks (possibly less) when they finally get to Casterly Rock.)

Here was my original interpertation of events:

and...

Yeah, sometimes women hemmorhage during labor and die. Sometimes they have eclampsia and die quickly. Sometimes they have infection and linger. Not all deaths during childbirth are of the same cause. Just because Joanna died quickly after a difficult labor does not mean that anther woman would follow in the same way.

I've read your interpretation of the timeline. I've yet to read your evidence for it beyond 'it's said it takes two weeks to get to KL'. How about taking a look at someof the timelineprojects. You'll note that readers have picked up on a number of discrepancies in the timeline. I believe in these discussion, SSMs are linked where GRRM notes that he sometimes plays fast and loose with timelines and movements. If those SSMs aren't in those threads, do a search. GRRM has even changed the ages of Rhaenyra and Aegon II several times. The one thing that has remained consistent about Jon's birth is that as an infant he could be believably passed off as younger than Robb, who was concived shortly into the rebellion.

The Tyrells likely would have been informed already that KL had fallen. They would have been prepared for Ned's arrival. It was more a formality by this time.

[MtnLion]

Here is the passage, quoted in its entirety: My reading of this hinges on the bold parts. Aerys' paranoia escalates after Tywin does not respond. He has the pyromancers begin laying the caches. Rhaegar is possibly still present when Chelsted confronts Aerys about the plot (and thus possibly still present when Aerys rapes Rhaella later that night) Rhaegar and Darry depart for the Trident (we know together, based on Jaime's last memory of Rhaegar) and when word of the defeat reaches KL, Rhaella is sent away, after which Aerys threatens to deploy the wildfire, leading to Jaime assassinating him and killing Rossart, and later the other pyromancers. This compresses the timeline between Rhaegar's departure and the Sack to two weeks (based on the length of Rossart's Hand-ship) but that actually seems reasonable, since we've already shown that the distance can be travelled in far less than the two weeks it took Cersei's ridiculous wheelhouse. It also leaves Rhaella parked at KL for a good while (a week or so?) after the rape. So the question is, does any other text actually rule that out?

Not that I know of, off hand. There is this bit, right in the center:

“My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father’s son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all.” He remembered how Rossart’s eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same.

So, then we would need Rhaegar and Prince Lewynn, Barristan, and Darry to gather the army and return (at least Darry) for the night that had seen Chelsted roasted. Then the army to move to the Trident and engage Robert's army, and news of the defeat to reach King's Landing in less than a fortnight. We need a day for Rhaella to depart, and Jaime does not connect that day with the sack, so time is pretty thin. I think GRRM just played fast and loose with the timetable, and we will find out that Jaime is pretty unreliable at remembering details. ;)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Not that I know of, off hand. There is this bit, right in the center: So, then we would need Rhaegar and Prince Lewynn, Barristan, and Darry to gather the army and return (at least Darry) for the night that had seen Chelsted roasted. Then the army to move to the Trident and engage Robert's army, and news of the defeat to reach King's Landing in less than a fortnight. We need a day for Rhaella to depart, and Jaime does not connect that day with the sack, so time is pretty thin. I think GRRM just played fast and loose with the timetable, and we will find out that Jaime is pretty unreliable at remembering details. ;)

No doubt, though I think the Brothers were away rallying the troops after Stoney Sept and Rhaegar remained at KL making the plans.

Trying to pin this down is like herding cats, with Jon Darry being the most annoying sneak-through-your-legs-and-trip-you-up cat of all ;)

[Ygrain]

Heh, I don't think I can draw a cutlass over my shoulder and I have a sleeve length of 37-38.

I know I definitely can't, and neither could any of the other guys who tried with a replica of a Southern cavalry sabre - it didn't seem long as it was hanging on the wall, barely an arm's length, yet, no go :-)

RPGing with people who have various blades at home is an advantage :-)

[Aderyn the Sly]

I've read your interpretation of the timeline. I've yet to read your evidence for it beyond 'it's said it takes two weeks to get to KL'. How about taking a look at someof the timelineprojects. You'll note that readers have picked up on a number of discrepancies in the timeline. I believe in these discussion, SSMs are linked where GRRM notes that he sometimes plays fast and loose with timelines and movements. If those SSMs aren't in those threads, do a search. GRRM has even changed the ages of Rhaenyra and Aegon II several times. The one thing that has remained consistent about Jon's birth is that as an infant he could be believably passed off as younger than Robb, who was concived shortly into the rebellion.

I've read a lot of the others on timeline inconsistencies and the big difference I think between this and say the argument that Stannis couldn't have arrived at the wall in time is that this is something that GRRM explicitly stated stated something that would otherwise have remained ambiguous and it directly conflicts in a very obvious way vs. The Stannis issue that is built up by two different POVs in different ends of the continent who's stories don't follow an exact parallel in the timeline and were pieced together from common events after the fact.

[MtnLion]

I know I definitely can't, and neither could any of the other guys who tried with a replica of a Southern cavalry sabre - it didn't seem long as it was hanging on the wall, barely an arm's length, yet, no go :-)

RPGing with people who have various blades at home is an advantage :-)

I am an ex-Navy Chief Petty Officer, and my sidearm is a cutlass. I have a real one, so we don't play games with it, but it is shorter than a sabre. I always chuckle at the heroes drawing their swords over their back, like Sucker Punch. It might be possible to draw a cutlass over my left shoulder with my right hand. It would be a very complicated move, though.

[Ygrain]

I am an ex-Navy Chief Petty Officer, and my sidearm is a cutlass. I have a real one, so we don't play games with it, but it is shorter than a sabre. I always chuckle at the heroes drawing their swords over their back, like Sucker Punch.

Wow, I didn't know blades were still used in present-day armies - knives, sure, but... forgive me for asking, does it have any practical use?

[Alia of the knife]

I am an ex-Navy Chief Petty Officer, and my sidearm is a cutlass. I have a real one, so we don't play games with it, but it is shorter than a sabre. I always chuckle at the heroes drawing their swords over their back, like Sucker Punch. It might be possible to draw a cutlass over my left shoulder with my right hand. It would be a very complicated move, though.

Living in Annapolis not far from the Naval Academy, during ceremonies, especially weddings at old St. Anne's Parish, we see some of the mids with swords still. Would they be just Officers who carry them, or are swords still used as a part of every midshipman dress code?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Wow, I didn't know blades were still used in present-day armies - knives, sure, but... forgive me for asking, does it have any practical use?

Ceremonial for officers, I'm guessing? I'm butting in because I have (ceremonial) sabre in my possession that belonged to my husband's grandfather, who was a general in the Danish Army in the mid-20thC. I just tried to pull it over my shoulder for kicks and the results were hysterical :lol:

[SFDanny]

So, you think that Ned hung around for Robert's coronation, while he was so pissed at Robert that he wanted to start a war with him?

Fairly certain the coronation takes place shortly before Tywin presents the bodies to Robert, and therefore before Ned argues with his new king and leaves King Landing.

edit: Finally returned to my computer and I'm able to provide the quotes that make me "fairly certain."

I base that on three quotes.

At Robert's coronation, I was made to kneel at the royal feet beside Grand Maester Pycelle and Varys the eunuch, so that he might forgive us our crimes before he took us into his service." (ACoK 600 US hardback)

Jaime talking to Catelyn in the Riverrun dungeons.

"Ser Barristan once told me that the rot in King Aerys's reign began with Varys. The eunuch should never have been pardoned. No more than the Kingslayer. At the least, Robert should have stripped the white cloak from Jaime and sent him to the Wall as Lord Stark urged. He listened to Jon Arryn instead. I was still at Storm's End, under siege and unconsulted." (ASoS 411 US hardback)

bold emphasis added. Stannis to Davos in Dragonstone's dungeons

and,

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to clam that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing. (AGoT 93-94 US hardback)

bold emphasis added. Ned thinking back to the time he and Ned argued over Tywin's display of Elia and her children's bodies

The first quote tells us that Jaime, Pycelle, and Varys are pardoned at the coronation. The second tells us that the pardoning takes place before Ned relieves the siege at Storm's End, and the last tells us that Robert is king before Ned leaves King's Landing. It seems very clear to me that the timeframe in which the coronation takes place is limited to after Robert arrives in King's Landing from the Trident to before Ned leaves King's Landing in his "cold rage" and goes on to lift the siege at Storm's End, fight at the Tower of Joy, finds Lyanna, goes on Starfall, etc.

This make perfect sense for the rebels to speed the coronation up to the earliest possible date once they take the Iron Throne. They need all of the Westerosi houses who have sided with Aerys to see that the war is over and Robert is their new king. They won't like it, but that Robert sits the throne in King's Landing and is crowned King is a powerful symbol to everyone.

[Ygrain]

Ceremonial for officers, I'm guessing? I'm butting in because I have (ceremonial) sabre in my possession that belonged to my husband's grandfather, who was a general in the Danish Army in the mid-20thC. I just tried to pull it over my shoulder for kicks and the results were hysterical :lol:

It's a shame, I can't recall, who was Arthur's grandfather? :D

Ah, I can see that exempla trahunt - reminds me when I complained to a friend that my character in a PC game was unrealistically swaying her hips while running, and the first thing she did was try it in front of the mirror :laugh:

[Dr. Pepper]

I've read a lot of the others on timeline inconsistencies and the big difference I think between this and say the argument that Stannis couldn't have arrived at the wall in time is that this is something that GRRM explicitly stated stated something that would otherwise have remained ambiguous and it directly conflicts in a very obvious way vs. The Stannis issue that is built up by two different POVs in different ends of the continent who's stories don't follow an exact parallel in the timeline and were pieced together from common events after the fact.

I'm not really understanding what you are trying to say in this post.

Stannis needed to get to the wall at a certain time but also needed to be at Dragonstone for a certain amount of time, so the timeline is sketchy. Of course, with Stannis, GRRM included a reason for travel that happened too quickly - Melisandre and her spell for favorable winds.

In most cases where two characters needed to meet up, there isn't this magical assistance to explain inconsistencies in speed of travel. He needed two characters to meet at a certain point or an event to be discussed at a certain time and decided to do it, fuck the timeline. What's so different about needing Ned to meet with Lyanna before she died? Jon had to be born around the same time as Robb for Ned's lies to work, but Ned also had to meet with Lyanna. Timeline fudging is bound to happen. It would be completely different if the timeline and travel speeds were absolutely consistent everywhere else. But you're deciding on your own that this one instance is different, and you'd decided without providing evidence for why it's different.

[Aderyn the Sly]

I'm not really understanding what you are trying to say in this post.

The point I'm trying to make is that the timeline for the other challenges that are "inconsistant" or "don't fit" are fuzzy (like the Stannis one) and it's only by scrutinizing them that people realize the timeline doesn't fit. With the one I'm challenging its pretty obvious that there's something up with the timeline.

I'm refering to the SSM here that states the Stannis issue is one (amongst many I'm sure) example of why he doesn't use dates. But in the example of Jons birth he did give us a fairly specific date.