R+L=J v.55

[Aderyn the Sly]

Sure, today the birthing process is cleaner. But it's still a dirty process. Infection can enter by any means. The midwifes hands, the bowl that catches the placenta, the sheets, the privy or the things that generally go into a privy, etc etc etc.

What exactly about the timeline are you disputing? That Ned moves too quickly from KL to Storm's End to the TOJ? What do you think about Cat moving through the Riverlands like a jack rabbit? Sometimes GRRM's traveling speeds don't completely add up. One month seems like more than enough time to get from KL to Storm's End. A small army would be moving at the speed of Renly if they took much longer. Ned then went with only seven men to the TOJ. They can move fast.

From the Trident to KL (all all the stuff that does down there post sack, including an Injured Robert arriving), to Storm's End (and the lifting of the Siege didn't happen in a day) to ToJ. Yes. I don't think that could happen in a month. If you read the earlier posts, I give a reasoning for the timeline and state that it would take about 8 weeks for Ned to get there. Possibly as few as six. Still gives us a two week old baby and one long time for Lyanna to still be dying.

[Jon Icefyre]

Thank you for actual evidence. I take it that is going to be in the World of Ice and Fire book?

Most likely, ya lol.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I think GRRM made a mistake. :shocked: He started out the chapter remembering the reasons for why things were what they were, then came to writing about Rhaella, and needed a tool for Jaime to explain the reasoning of the Kingsguard. So, he inserted Darry, forgetting that Darry was already dead.

Why did Aerys fire (LoL) his Mace and Dagger Hand? Because with the Trident lost he wanted to plant wildfire throughout Kings Landing, in case the rebels breached the fortifications. His Mace and Dagger Hand didn't like that idea, but the pyromancer did, so we get a new Hand, and inspire Aerys to take his right from Rhaella. It just makes too much sense.

:lol: But I think the reason for the wildfire plot (at least according to Jaime) is Tywin's lack of response to the ravens sent at Rhaegar's urging after he returned to KL post Stoney Sept. No response from Tywin caused a paranoid reaction that led to the wildfire build up. After he received the news from the Trident, he decided to implement the plan, but it had been some time in the making.

[MtnLion]

From the Trident to KL (all all the stuff that does down there post sack, including an Injured Robert arriving), to Storm's End (and the lifting of the Siege didn't happen in a day) to ToJ. Yes. I don't think that could happen in a month. If you read the earlier posts, I give a reasoning for the timeline and state that it would take about 8 weeks for Ned to get there. Possibly as few as six. Still gives us a two week old baby and one long time for Lyanna to still be dying.

So, you think that Ned hung around for Robert's coronation, while he was so pissed at Robert that he wanted to start a war with him? Someone earlier mentioned that Tywin likely started for King's Landing before he had news of the Trident. I think that is probably the case, the war is going to be won or lost on the Trident, so Tywin needs to be at King's Landing to show his support for Aerys, or to sack the city if the rebels win. So, he is likely in the field when he learns of Robert's victory. Robert is wounded, but is carted to King's Landing, while Ned takes the lead. He could be just a few hours behind Ned, as armies do not travel that quickly, and the cart is probably in the tail. Remember that we are not counting from the Trident itself, but news of the Trident reaching King's Landing and Rhaella being evacuated. If you don't like the timing, it is equally likely that Daenerys is a bastard, right?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

From the Trident to KL (all all the stuff that does down there post sack, including an Injured Robert arriving), to Storm's End (and the lifting of the Siege didn't happen in a day) to ToJ. Yes. I don't think that could happen in a month. If you read the earlier posts, I give a reasoning for the timeline and state that it would take about 8 weeks for Ned to get there. Possibly as few as six. Still gives us a two week old baby and one long time for Lyanna to still be dying.

You see, right there we are in agreement! I gave six week timeline upthread and you (I think it was you, lol) disagreed with me! If you accept that as a possibility then all the back and forth is pointless because there is no reason to disbelieve the death occurring two weeks post partum. By all accounts given puerperal fever can take up to ten days to set in. It is reasonable to think Lyanna could have lingered up to week, but certainly as long as four days. There are your two weeks. Now we can agree and move on :)

[Dr. Pepper]

From the Trident to KL (all all the stuff that does down there post sack, including an Injured Robert arriving), to Storm's End (and the lifting of the Siege didn't happen in a day) to ToJ. Yes. I don't think that could happen in a month. If you read the earlier posts, I give a reasoning for the timeline and state that it would take about 8 weeks for Ned to get there. Possibly as few as six. Still gives us a two week old baby and one long time for Lyanna to still be dying.

For puerperal fever, that sounds about right. Not sure what your objections are about this.

[MtnLion]

:lol: But I think the reason for the wildfire plot (at least according to Jaime) is Tywin's lack of response to the ravens sent at Rhaegar's urging after he returned to KL post Stoney Sept. No response from Tywin caused a paranoid reaction that led to the wildfire build up. After he received the news from the Trident, he decided to implement the plan, but it had been some time in the making.

Quite true, it is the plan going into motion that leads to the firing. It would be silly to risk the city with wildfire if the Trident had been a crown victory. But, we are talking about Aerys. His responses were way over the top, but the plan going into motion was probably post Trident.

[Aderyn the Sly]

So, you think that Ned hung around for Robert's coronation, while he was so pissed at Robert that he wanted to start a war with him? Someone earlier mentioned that Tywin likely started for King's Landing before he had news of the Trident. I think that is probably the case, the war is going to be won or lost on the Trident, so Tywin needs to be at King's Landing to show his support for Aerys, or to sack the city if the rebels win. So, he is likely in the field when he learns of Robert's victory. Robert is wounded, but is carted to King's Landing, while Ned takes the lead. He could be just a few hours behind Ned, as armies do not travel that quickly, and the cart is probably in the tail. Remember that we are not counting from the Trident itself, but news of the Trident reaching King's Landing and Rhaella being evacuated. If you don't like the timing, it is equally likely that Daenerys is a bastard, right?

My reasoning for the corrination is that Robert had to be corrinated before issuing Royal Pardons. And I agree that Tywin was likely heading for the city before word reached them of the Trident. (He might have even been going to save him until he learned of the battle, but that's a whole other can of worms). But Rhaella and Viserys were safely at Dragonstone (or at least out to sea) by the time of the Sack otherwise the "rebels" could have sent men to overtake them on the road.

[Aderyn the Sly]

For puerperal fever, that sounds about right. Not sure what your objections are about this.

Puerperal Feverl usually sets in within three days and death within a week, you're doubling the time by saying she could still be alive two weeks later. I've quoted multiple sources on this.

Yes GRRM could have made a fanstasy disease that isn't an exact parallel, but even in Westeros two weeks seems far fetched for her to by dying from childbirth.

[MtnLion]

My reasoning for the corrination is that Robert had to be corrinated before issuing Royal Pardons. And I agree that Tywin was likely heading for the city before word reached them of the Trident. (He might have even been going to save him until he learned of the battle, but that's a whole other can of worms). But Rhaella and Viserys were safely at Dragonstone (or at least out to sea) by the time of the Sack otherwise the "rebels" could have sent men to overtake them on the road.

Right, Rhaella had departed a fortnight (at most) after conceiving on the night that Jaime remembers. That is when the sack of King's Landing occurs, a fortnight after Aerys makes the pyromancer Hand, and visits Rhaella while Jaime stands guard. A fortnight after the pyromancer is made Hand, Jaime severs him from Handship, and then uses his sword on Aerys.

So, Robert is giving pardons, and where is Ned? Ned is long gone, because as soon as Robert arrives the feud begins. Ned is aghast at what had been done to the children and Elia, and Robert does nothing. Jon Arryn sees the trouble, and sends Ned packing, to finish the war, so that he doesn't start a new one in King's Landing.

[Ygrain]

Puerperal Feverl usually sets in within three days and death within a week, you're doubling the time by saying she could still be alive two weeks later. I've quoted multiple sources on this.

Yes GRRM could have made a fanstasy disease that isn't an exact parallel, but even in Westeros two weeks seems far fetched for her to by dying from childbirth.

"A temperature rise above 100.4 °F (38 °C) maintained over 24 hours or recurring during the period from the end of the first to the end of the 10th day after childbirth" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerperal_fever#Definition)

Seems like GRRM used other sources.

[Aderyn the Sly]

Right, Rhaella had departed a fortnight (at most) after conceiving on the night that Jaime remembers. That is when the sack of King's Landing occurs, a fortnight after Aerys makes the pyromancer Hand, and visits Rhaella while Jaime stands guard. A fortnight after the pyromancer is made Hand, Jaime severs him from Handship, and then uses his sword on Aerys.

So, Robert is giving pardons, and where is Ned? Ned is long gone, because as soon as Robert arrives the feud begins. Ned is aghast at what had been done to the children and Elia, and Robert does nothing. Jon Arryn sees the trouble, and sends Ned packing, to finish the war, so that he doesn't start a new one in King's Landing.

It wasn't just the children's death they argued over. He argued with him pardoning Jaime and allowing him to remain a kingsguard, when Ned argued for him to take the black. Jaime was pardoned with Slemy, Varys, Pycelle, etc...

"A temperature rise above 100.4 °F (38 °C) maintained over 24 hours or recurring during the period from the end of the first to the end of the 10th day after childbirth" (http://en.wikipedia....ever#Definition)

Seems like GRRM used other sources.

Because he'd use wikipedia over a medical journal documenting the spread of the diesease through the middle ages? Also the source that Wikipedia cites for that deffinition is an unfished report on a variety of types of sepsis that includes Puerperal fever.

[Jon Icefyre]

Puerperal Feverl usually sets in within three days and death within a week, you're doubling the time by saying she could still be alive two weeks later. I've quoted multiple sources on this.

Yes GRRM could have made a fanstasy disease that isn't an exact parallel, but even in Westeros two weeks seems far fetched for her to by dying from childbirth.

Again Queen Jane Seymour of England is believed to have died from puerperal fever due to a bacterial infection contracted during the birth or a tear in her perineum which became infected. She suffered for 12 days before she died, so that's pretty much two weeks right there in the real world. Therefore, I really don't think it's nearly as much of a 'stretch' for GRRM to have it happen in a freakin 'fantasy' novel as you seem to think it is.....

[Dr. Pepper]

Puerperal Feverl usually sets in within three days and death within a week, you're doubling the time by saying she could still be alive two weeks later. I've quoted multiple sources on this.

Yes GRRM could have made a fanstasy disease that isn't an exact parallel, but even in Westeros two weeks seems far fetched for her to by dying from childbirth.

Oh dear, so he was off by up to four days based on your timeline? That's a HUGE discrepancy!

[MtnLion]

It wasn't just the children's death they argued over. He argued with him pardoning Jaime and allowing him to remain a kingsguard, when Ned argued for him to take the black. Jaime was pardoned with Slemy, Varys, Pycelle, etc...

Exactly, Ned argued with Robert's preferential treatment of the Lannisters after what Ned saw as crimes, and breaches of oaths. Jaime killed the King, and his oath made it his responsibility to prevent that from happening. Ned only had a few words with Robert before Jon sent him packing. You don't see that Ned's anger would be scarcely under control? Reread what Littlefinger says about Starks, in general, and Ned in particular; "Quick anger, slow understanding."

[Ygrain]

Because he'd use wikipedia over a medical journal documenting the spread of the diesease through the middle ages? Also the source that Wikipedia cites for that deffinition is an unfished report on a variety of types of sepsis that includes Puerperal fever.

And why should he look for further sources if he's not writing a medical article? Really, what's your issue? That average estimates are just that, average estimates and there can be exceptions?

Plus, it's not like GRRM doesn't make factual mistakes, e.g. two-handed swords cannot be drawn over the shoulder.

[Alia of the knife]

I believe we might have a partial analogy in

those two KG being with Rhaenyra at Dragonstone - it might seem that assigning two KG to the protection of the heir apparent was a common practice :-)

While I agree on the many things becoming corrupted, I believe that those three are depicted as the ones NOT bending the rules. Their "absence" from duty based on other orders seems no more than an analogical situation to the one we see in the books time and again: a KG is assigned something else to do, while the king is guarded by the others. Arys and Balon are sent to Dorne, Loras to Dragonstone, Hightower and Dayne were hunting the outlaws, Lewyn Martell was sent to gather Dorne's forces... We are shown that the need to protect the king and be in his vicinity doesn't apply to each single KG individually but rather to the KG "organisation" as a whole, so as long as some of them carry out the duty, the others can be ordered to other tasks. They are definitely not free to leave or not attend on their own.

Thanks for reaching out and giving some clarification, because while I've never doubted their purpose at the TOJ in the latter part of this journey, it just feels to me like to me there is something strange going on in their initial response and how they came to be at the TOJ at all.

Also agree that they don't necessarily have to be attached at the hip to the King.

I have to admit, whether or not we accept R+L=J (which I DO), this has always still perplexed me.

The fact that three of the country's best Kingsguards remain at the TOJ even after the Battle of Trident, and so in the time gap that Rhaegar is killed and Aerys remain King with Aegon as his heir, the Kingsguards still remain at the ToJ and do not head for Kings Landing.

I apologise if we are going over old ground and if someone has already explained this (it has been a long time since I read Game of Thrones), but I find it slightly perplexing. I always imagine that an old hat such as Hightower reknowned for rigidly sticking to every rule would have told them all to go South.

I take account of Ygrain's comment, however I have also read another comment elsewhere which suggests that Rhaegar may have relieved Aerys of his Kingly duties before the Battle of Trident. After all, he did mention that "changes" were afoot. I cannot offer any evidence at all for this statement - it is just a theory at the moment, but do you think it is plausible? It might shed some light as to why the Kingsguards remained at the ToJ after Rhaegar's demise?

Right, and this is one of the issues that are a "peeve" to me, because as you say, their later duty at the TOJ, and their purpose I don't question, especially on the matter of Jon.

But they as much tell Ned when he says "I looked for you on the Trident" that they could have turned the tide of the rebellion, and had they been there, Aerys would still sit the throne.

Either they had a high opinion of their abilities, or they were telling the truth, and there could be a little frustration reflected in that statement in that they were stymied by whatever order they were following.

It seems as if Aerys himself would have had to give the order, or approve Dayne and Whent riding off with Rhaegar to the TOJ, and then ordered to guard him while there. Either that, or Dayne and Whent made an independent decision to follow Rhaegars orders regarding events at the TOJ.

Again, another possibility of the KG playing at the GOT as Selmy alludes.

Could the TOJ have been as much a political "nest" as much as it was obviously a place of love and happiness for him where he declared a new wife in defiance of Aerys?

All the more reason to want to remove his father beyond his madness,( which I don't actually blame him for wanting to do any of this btw).

[MtnLion]

And why should he look for further sources if he's not writing a medical article? Really, what's your issue? That average estimates are just that, average estimates and there can be exceptions?

Plus, it's not like GRRM doesn't make factual mistakes, e.g. two-handed swords cannot be drawn over the shoulder.

Heh, I don't think I can draw a cutlass over my shoulder and I have a sleeve length of 37-38.

[Aderyn the Sly]

Oh dear, so he was off by up to four days based on your timeline? That's a HUGE discrepancy!

I'm saying she was dying for two weeks at a minimum. That's still assuming that Ned could do all his traveling (in a warzone no less!) and cleaning up the aftermaths of war withing a freaking month. It's not like he spent a few hours at both KL and SE before taking off again. That's some fast traveling and fast talking. 8 weeks is more likely and Lyanna dying for over a month even less likely

And why should he look for further sources if he's not writing a medical article? Really, what's your issue? That average estimates are just that, average estimates and there can be exceptions?

Plus, it's not like GRRM doesn't make factual mistakes, e.g. two-handed swords cannot be drawn over the shoulder.

I'm saying he would choose credible sourses not just a webpage on the internet that anyone can edit. I'm sure he would rather talk to someone in the medical field than type "peurpural fever" into google and go with it. As for factual mistakes, this seems like a big descrepency. (The Timeline, which was my main point, not whether childbirth could kill her).

Edit: Whether vs weather

[Rhaegar's Love]

Just another little thing to add into the timeline discussion (if it helps any-I suck with timeline stuff).

I think it's also important to keep in mind that while the general length of pregnancy is 40 weeks (equating to about nine months or nine moons), children can be born any time before (pre-mature though I doubt a child would be able survive a premature condition in this time without serious complications) and well over the due date. When I gave birth to my daughter I was two weeks overdue and a lot of the moms in my moms group (who were also first time moms) had been needed to be induced as well (42 weeks is the standard around here).

Obviously it was unlikely, if not impossible, that a birth in this time period would be induced so for a first time mom like Lyanna, she could have easily had a longer pregnancy than a a woman like Rhaella who had already given birth twice (something about the body and how it reacts to the baby and what's happening). So unless it's stated that each pregnancy was exactly nine months, some flexibility should be taken into account.