R+L=J v.55

[SFDanny]

We have been down this road before. Jaime starts off the entire piece, that ALL of his brothers were away. Then, he remembers that Darry had said on an earlier occasion. Either he is wrong that all of the Kingsguard are away, or he is wrong that Darry is present, if you take it literally. So, on literal basis it is entirely vapor. If you interpret it, then you have to assume that Jaime is remembering Darry's words, and that Darry is indeed dead.

This is only a problem if one takes an absolutist interpretation to Jaime's statement instead of reading it as his sworn brothers are away on assignments so they don't see the wildfire plot developing - which is his point - and don't allow for any of them ever returning to the city during the whole period. I don't see a conflict in Darry being there when Aerys rapes Rhaella, which he obviously was, and he not being there to see the the plot taking place, which, again, is the point of Jaime's first statement.

[Dr. Pepper]

The point I'm trying to make is that the timeline for the other challenges that are "inconsistant" or "don't fit" are fuzzy (like the Stannis one) and it's only by scrutinizing them that people realize the timeline doesn't fit. With the one I'm challenging its pretty obvious that there's something up with the timeline.

I'm refering to the SSM here that states the Stannis issue is one (amongst many I'm sure) example of why he doesn't use dates. But in the example of Jons birth he did give us a fairly specific date.

So basically, you have the author telling you to put away the stopwatch and the ruler and just enjoy the story because he didn't intend for people to scrutinize movements like this and yet you...keep having issues with the speed of Ned's movements from the Trident to King's Landing the Storm's End to Tower of Joy?

You do realize Ned's movements are only apparent when the timeline is scrutinized, right? Jon's birth is given a pretty specific timeframe, yes. It's Ned's movements that become fuzzy....and the author has clearly stated that he'd rather readers just go with it. GRRM is clearly not one who cares much for schedules and timeframes and such.

[Aderyn the Sly]

So basically, you have the author telling you to put away the stopwatch and the ruler and just enjoy the story because he didn't intend for people to scrutinize movements like this and yet you...keep having issues with the speed of Ned's movements from the Trident to King's Landing the Storm's End to Tower of Joy?

You do realize Ned's movements are only apparent when the timeline is scrutinized, right? Jon's birth is given a pretty specific timeframe, yes. It's Ned's movements that become fuzzy....and the author has clearly stated that he'd rather readers just go with it. GRRM is clearly not one who cares much for schedules and timeframes and such.

That's my point, I don't see it as fuzzy. It's not apparent only when it's scrutinized, because I quesioned it after reading that SSM before ever trying to map out the timeline. If he said nine months or eight, combined with what we already know from the very first book it leads us to conlude he was born at the time Dany fled, or shortly after. He says he doesn't give dates, but in this case he did. That's why I think it's different.

[Ser Creighton]

So basically, you have the author telling you to put away the stopwatch and the ruler and just enjoy the story because he didn't intend for people to scrutinize movements like this and yet you...keep having issues with the speed of Ned's movements from the Trident to King's Landing the Storm's End to Tower of Joy?

You do realize Ned's movements are only apparent when the timeline is scrutinized, right? Jon's birth is given a pretty specific timeframe, yes. It's Ned's movements that become fuzzy....and the author has clearly stated that he'd rather readers just go with it. GRRM is clearly not one who cares much for schedules and timeframes and such.

Well Martin is write you can't really get that to into the timeline of what Ned was doing or how many days it took him to go from A to B. It's not really that important. When Martin wrote the story he never had mapped out Westeros or gone in depth in to military troop movments by foot or by horse. Or the actual distance from point A to point B. There is no exact distance or travel time to any one place. That's why movments in the books are all over the place. Sometimes it takes months and weeks and sometimes it takes days.

I don't personally mind that because this is not a historical account. Ned got to such and such when he got to such and such.It took a fortnight to go from KL to the trident and back. Fine it took a fotnight. Do the miles from any of the maps add up? No. Does it matter? No he didn't draw those maps or scale them and they are really just there for reader enjoyment. This is Westeros it's big, this is were some places are. I also don't need an exact battle plan for any of the battles, they one they lost that's the battle.

I can see why Martin gets exausted with some of the fans, who want every single exact detail to be perfect.

[Ser Creighton]

That's my point, I don't see it as fuzzy. It's not apparent only when it's scrutinized, because I quesioned it after reading that SSM before ever trying to map out the timeline. If he said nine months or eight, combined with what we already know from the very first book it leads us to conlude he was born at the time Dany fled, or shortly after. He says he doesn't give dates, but in this case he did. That's why I think it's different.

How did you conclude that?

[Dr. Pepper]

Well Martin is write you can't really get that to into the timeline of what Ned was doing or how many days it took him to go from A to B. It's not really that important. When Martin wrote the story he never had mapped out Westeros or gone in depth in to military troop movments by foot or by horse. Or the actual distance from point A to point B. There is no exact distance or travel time to any one place. That's why movments in the books are all over the place. Sometimes it takes months and weeks and sometimes it takes days.

I don't personally mind that because this is not a historical account. Ned got to such and such when he got to such and such.It took a fortnight to go from KL to the trident and back. Fine it took a fotnight. Do the miles from any of the maps add up? No. Does it matter? No he didn't draw those maps or scale them and they are really just there for reader enjoyment. This is Westeros it's big, this is were some places are. I also don't need an exact battle plan for any of the battles, they one they lost that's the battle.

I can see why Martin gets exausted with some of the fans, who want every single exact detail to be perfect.

Oh Ser Creighton, I almost feel weird agreeing so vehemently with you. :P

If Martin has been consistent with one thing, it's being inconsistent with timing. From his publishing schedule to character movements even to length of pregnancy (Lollys had a horribly premature babe that apparently came out just fine). He's even stated several times in interviews and at book signings that he didn't nail down the timeline perfectly when he was writing. Hell, he spent five years trying to work out the Meereenese knot and there are still discrepancies in timeline.

Regarding the dates, I have no idea how this other poster concluded GRRM doesn't give us dates. We get tons of dates, whether inside the story, in the appendix, in supplementary material or interviews and such. If we didn't have these dates and other timeline markers, a sketch of the timeline wouldn't be possible. This should be obvious, but apparently it isn't.

[Ser Creighton]

This is only a problem if one takes an absolutist interpretation to Jaime's statement instead of reading it as his sworn brothers are away on assignments so they don't see the wildfire plot developing - which is his point - and don't allow for any of them ever returning to the city during the whole period. I don't see a conflict in Darry being there when Aerys rapes Rhaella, which he obviously was, and he not being there to see the the plot taking place, which, again, is the point of Jaime's first statement.

Jaime is sworn to keep the Kings secret he never tells his brothers, he mentions this. But the events of what Jaime said don't have any holes that I can see. It's as simple as Darry returning after the hand was burned. If Darry is an hour or two up the road at the time then he is an hour or two up the road and away from KL. He clearly had returned as he spoke to Jaime twice, once during the rape and once the next Day when Rhaegar marched. Yes he was away with the other brothers, helping to assemble the army, and yes he returned. That was his job, go assemble these men and return with them. He returned after the burning and before the rape. A one or two hour window is all he would need to explain not being there. It never said he was away and never returned. He was away he returned, then he left again. It's a war people are busy and doing things.

He was away he came back, people do that. I am going to go get some food, but I will return, maybe even tonight. I am mysterious like that. But I gotta go, I am hungry, I can smell a donut sealed in a plastic bag from a mile away at this point in my diet. It smells so good, to bad for me it's time for more raw greens and maybe chicken or tuna. Yummy bland food. Maybe I will treat myself to some brown rice.

[Ser Creighton]

Oh Ser Creighton, I almost feel weird agreeing so vehemently with you. :P

If Martin has been consistent with one thing, it's being inconsistent with timing. From his publishing schedule to character movements even to length of pregnancy (Lollys had a horribly premature babe that apparently came out just fine). He's even stated several times in interviews and at book signings that he didn't nail down the timeline perfectly when he was writing. Hell, he spent five years trying to work out the Meereenese knot and there are still discrepancies in timeline.

Regarding the dates, I have no idea how this other poster concluded GRRM doesn't give us dates. We get tons of dates, whether inside the story, in the appendix, in supplementary material or interviews and such. If we didn't have these dates and other timeline markers, a sketch of the timeline wouldn't be possible. This should be obvious, but apparently it isn't.

What? WHAT? Agree with me? I take it back, I take it all back. I don't have a counter argument for what I said, but if there is one that's what I would use. Agree with me? Don't be silly, there must be something you don't agree with, we have a long standing relationship of disagreeing, keep the streak alive.

[Jon Icefyre]

What? WHAT? Agree with me? I take it back, I take it all back. I don't have a counter argument for what I said, but if there is one that's what I would use. Agree with me? Don't be silly, there must be something you don't agree with, we have a long standing relationship of disagreeing, keep the streak alive.

Hahaha :lmao:

[SFDanny]

Jaime is sworn to keep the Kings secret he never tells his brothers, he mentions this. But the events of what Jaime said don't have any holes that I can see. It's as simple as Darry returning after the hand was burned. If Darry is an hour or two up the road at the time then he is an hour or two up the road and away from KL. He clearly had returned as he spoke to Jaime twice, once during the rape and once the next Day when Rhaegar marched. Yes he was away with the other brothers, helping to assemble the army, and yes he returned. That was his job, go assemble these men and return with them. He returned after the burning and before the rape. A one or two hour window is all he would need to explain not being there. It never said he was away and never returned. He was away he returned, then he left again. It's a war people are busy and doing things.

He was away he came back, people do that. I am going to go get some food, but I will return, maybe even tonight. I am mysterious like that. But I gotta go, I am hungry, I can smell a donut sealed in a plastic bag from a mile away at this point in my diet. It smells so good, to bad for me it's time for more raw greens and maybe chicken or tuna. Yummy bland food. Maybe I will treat myself to some brown rice.

Hmmmm ..... dooough..nuts :drool:

[Alia of the knife]

I just saw this and YES! Lol I'm definitely gonna have a look at this thread, sounds very interesting indeed. Thanks!

Just contact "Mladen," she is the OP and VERY nice.

EDIT: HE is the OP.

[Alia of the knife]

On the topic of Lyannas "bed of blood, " I really think it's another case of Martin using thematic imagery in the literary sense, evoking the concept of the very different battle that women wage, which is to bring forth life as war takes it.

Mystery is supposed to surround Lyanna and her death, I think if she died any other way Martin would come out and say so.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Jaime is sworn to keep the Kings secret he never tells his brothers, he mentions this. But the events of what Jaime said don't have any holes that I can see. It's as simple as Darry returning after the hand was burned. If Darry is an hour or two up the road at the time then he is an hour or two up the road and away from KL. He clearly had returned as he spoke to Jaime twice, once during the rape and once the next Day when Rhaegar marched. Yes he was away with the other brothers, helping to assemble the army, and yes he returned. That was his job, go assemble these men and return with them. He returned after the burning and before the rape. A one or two hour window is all he would need to explain not being there. It never said he was away and never returned. He was away he returned, then he left again. It's a war people are busy and doing things.

He was away he came back, people do that. I am going to go get some food, but I will return, maybe even tonight. I am mysterious like that. But I gotta go, I am hungry, I can smell a donut sealed in a plastic bag from a mile away at this point in my diet. It smells so good, to bad for me it's time for more raw greens and maybe chicken or tuna. Yummy bland food. Maybe I will treat myself to some brown rice.

That's pretty much what I said, only I said it with much less style ;)

You're on an agreeable streak Ser! Enjoy your rice :P

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Hey folks- just looking back and this thread has already covered fireproof Targs, TPtWP/Three heads, KG @ ToJ, obstetrics and timeline. I think we hit all the major themes in under 500 posts (if we missed any there's still time ;))

Nice one! :cheers:

[Jon Icefyre]

Just contact "Mladen," she is the OP and VERY nice.

Ok thanks, will do :thumbsup:

Hey folks- just looking back and this thread has already covered fireproof Targs, TPtWP/Three heads, KG @ ToJ, obstetrics and timeline. I think we hit all the major themes in under 500 posts (if we missed any there's still time ;))

Nice one! :cheers:

Red rubies, or perhaps a little R+L=J northern conspiracy anyone?

[Alia of the knife]

Hey folks- just looking back and this thread has already covered fireproof Targs, TPtWP/Three heads, KG @ ToJ, obstetrics and timeline. I think we hit all the major themes in under 500 posts (if we missed any there's still time ;))

Nice one! :cheers:

LOL, You forgot if Jons mom was really "Mrs Pauls"

[W1NT3RF3LL]

On the topic of Lyannas "bed of blood, " I really think it's another case of Martin using thematic imagery in the literary sense, evoking the concept of the very different battle that women wage, which is to bring forth life as war takes it.

Mystery is supposed to surround Lyanna and her death, I think if she died any other way Martin would come out and say so.

Yes, I agree and which is why I say that to keep this a mystery if it is not Jon then it makes no sense what so ever as it accomplishes nothing.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Ok thanks, will do :thumbsup:

Red rubies, or perhaps a little R+L=J northern conspiracy anyone?

Ooh... forgot those! Two of my faves too :)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

LOL, You forgot if Jons mom was really "Mrs.

Pauls"

:shocked:

Somehow that got by me ;)

[MtnLion]

Wow, I didn't know blades were still used in present-day armies - knives, sure, but... forgive me for asking, does it have any practical use?

Living in Annapolis not far from the Naval Academy, during ceremonies, especially weddings at old St. Anne's Parish, we see some of the mids with swords still. Would they be just Officers who carry them, or are swords still used as a part of every midshipman dress code?

Ceremonial for officers, I'm guessing? I'm butting in because I have (ceremonial) sabre in my possession that belonged to my husband's grandfather, who was a general in the Danish Army in the mid-20thC. I just tried to pull it over my shoulder for kicks and the results were hysterical :lol:

Yes, in full dress officers are required to carry swords, and Chief Petty Officers may also be required to carry cutlasses, depending on the occasion. During war time officers and Chief Petty Officers are armed aboard ship. The choice is open for either the pistol (now a 9mm, but was a .45 when I was active) or a sword/cutlass. Ceremonial swords and cutlasses may not appear much different than the real thing, and I have a few ceremonial swords, but to me, holding the real thing I can feel the difference. Cutlasses are a bit shorter and heavier than a sabre, just about right for cutting mooring lines with a single stroke, and short enough for confined spaces aboard ship.