Why didn't Dany send agents to Westeros?

[Katerine459]

Somebody sarcastically answered earlier that it's because she's "just a little girl who knows nothing of the ways of war."

In a way, though, this is actually accurate. She is experienced in the ways of Dothraki-style war, but she's still extremely naive when it comes to the game of thrones. Almost as much as Ned was. For example, at the end of ASOS, she believed every word that the Astapor's envoys told her, even when those envoys were clearly giving her a very biased account/lying.

I say, "clearly," because it's clear to me. And probably to every reader of the books. Because, guess what - most of us come at her chapters in the books, with the benefit of not only age, but also... when we read her chapters, we've just come off of reading Tyrion, Cersei, and Sansa chapters. So our heads are filled with all of the intricacies of the game of thrones, and so we can easily see through all of the deceptions that are put before Dany.

But Dany is not a reader of the books. She doesn't have the same benefit that we have.

[PatrickStormborn]

With how ignorant all these readers are, it's really surprising how they recognize that 'sending agents' doesn't mean just sending for a newspaper delivery boy. I can't believe how the "ignorant" readers totally understand that sending agents means sending those to do your bidding. Like, you know, seeing who would rise for her when she landed in Westeros, figuring out the best place to land, the strengths and weaknesses of each region that can be exploited, and how best to integrate her army with those in Westeros. I mean, Dany herself thinks about lacking agents all the way in her first chapter of AGoT, in the same sentence where she talks of mistrusting Illyrio. But yeah, totally agree with you that it's other readers who are ignorant. In the two years since that first chapter, she just really didn't have the time. Definitely could wait. :dunno:

The OP specifically mentioned sending agents for updates.

But my point still extends to the other uses for agents. Why send agents to start trying to gain allies, despite having no idea when she'll actually land in Westeros? In ACoK her intention was to wait in Pentos until her dragons were grown, so clearly there wasn't much incentive to risk sending someone (and even then, who could she have sent back in ACoK?). In ASoS her motives change and she gets even further away from Westeros. Now that it seems likely that she will take longer to get there, why send anyone? And again - who exactly could she send? And if it's going to be potentially years before she invades, why find out the weak spots/current alliances, when it's likely that they'll have changed drastically by the time she finally does invade?

As far as Dany knows, there's no rush for her to invade Westeros(*). She can travel to Pentos and/or Dragonstone and wait while she collects all the information she needs and sends agents to try and win support for her (like Stannis did).

(*) GRRM will probably push her into invading fast, after she learns of the threat of the Others and the Long Night. But that's not a factor anyone could ever have predicted.

[Florina Laufeyson]

With how ignorant all these readers are, it's really surprising how they recognize that 'sending agents' doesn't mean just sending for a newspaper delivery boy. I can't believe how the "ignorant" readers totally understand that sending agents means sending those to do your bidding. Like, you know, seeing who would rise for her when she landed in Westeros, figuring out the best place to land, the strengths and weaknesses of each region that can be exploited, and how best to integrate her army with those in Westeros. I mean, Dany herself thinks about lacking agents all the way in her first chapter of AGoT, in the same sentence where she talks of mistrusting Illyrio. But yeah, totally agree with you that it's other readers who are ignorant. In the two years since that first chapter, she just really didn't have the time. Definitely could wait. :dunno:

Right? Because not formulating something resembling a spy network is totally logical. ;) Even though we are shown repeatedly that having such is very important in getting shit done.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

With how ignorant all these readers are, it's really surprising how they recognize that 'sending agents' doesn't mean just sending for a newspaper delivery boy. I can't believe how the "ignorant" readers totally understand that sending agents means sending those to do your bidding. Like, you know, seeing who would rise for her when she landed in Westeros, figuring out the best place to land, the strengths and weaknesses of each region that can be exploited, and how best to integrate her army with those in Westeros. I mean, Dany herself thinks about lacking agents all the way in her first chapter of AGoT, in the same sentence where she talks of mistrusting Illyrio. But yeah, totally agree with you that it's other readers who are ignorant. In the two years since that first chapter, she just really didn't have the time. Definitely could wait. :dunno:

This post is both wrong and lacking in critical thinking, obviously. :cool4:

[Dr. Pepper]

The OP specifically mentioned sending agents for updates.

But my point still extends to the other uses for agents. Why send agents to start trying to gain allies, despite having no idea when she'll actually land in Westeros? In ACoK her intention was to wait in Pentos until her dragons were grown, so clearly there wasn't much incentive to risk sending someone (and even then, who could she have sent back in ACoK?). In ASoS her motives change and she gets even further away from Westeros. Now that it seems likely that she will take longer to get there, why send anyone? And again - who exactly could she send? And if it's going to be potentially years before she invades, why find out the weak spots/current alliances, when it's likely that they'll have changed drastically by the time she finally does invade?

As far as Dany knows, there's no rush for her to invade Westeros(*). She can travel to Pentos and/or Dragonstone and wait while she collects all the information she needs and sends agents to try and win support for her (like Stannis did).

(*) GRRM will probably push her into invading fast, after she learns of the threat of the Others and the Long Night. But that's not a factor anyone could ever have predicted.

She could send anyone. Jorah was an option, though not a useful one since he'd been exiled so it would be dangerous for him to try to meet with the powers that be in Westeros. She could have hired any numbers of merchants she came across in Qarth or Slaver's Bay and requested they find a way to collect intel when they are next in Westeros and bring it to her when they are next near wherever she is. She is better served learning these things even if she's far away and planning on being far away indefinitely, as no one in Westeros at the time is expecting her to do anything other than be queen in Meereen. Of course, she doesn't know this because she isn't using spies or asking about it. Once she starts making her way west, people's expectations for what she'll be doing will obviously change.

Even if she didn't use spy agents in Westeros, using them in Essos should have been something to consider. Gathering intel about one's neighbors is important and necessary, especially in a war torn region and when she had crippled a section of the Essosi economy. She knows she has enemies. She left Qarth knowing she had enemies and she hit three major cities knowing she was making enemies. Yet not once did she consider setting up even a rudimentary intel network to keep her informed. The closest she comes is sending Daario to Lhazar to negotiate trade (and we know how Daario likes to negotiate, I'm assuming it wasn't a completely diplomatic mission). Even in her own city she lacks a decent spy network. All of her spying is reactionary, and not truly spying at all.

But the question still remains, who would she send? In my opinion, that question should only be asked once the decision is made to utilize spies, and then still only after potential spies have been vetted. Obviously, if she has no one to send now when she's in Meereen, she'll have that same problem when she's in Pentos or at Dragonstone, or sitting on the throne in the bloody Red Keep. You can't send a spy if you don't consider the value of spies and if you don't vet potential spies.

[PatrickStormborn]

She could send anyone. Jorah was an option, though not a useful one since he'd been exiled so it would be dangerous for him to try to meet with the powers that be in Westeros. She could have hired any numbers of merchants she came across in Qarth or Slaver's Bay and requested they find a way to collect intel when they are next in Westeros and bring it to her when they are next near wherever she is. She is better served learning these things even if she's far away and planning on being far away indefinitely, as no one in Westeros at the time is expecting her to do anything other than be queen in Meereen. Of course, she doesn't know this because she isn't using spies or asking about it. Once she starts making her way west, people's expectations for what she'll be doing will obviously change.

Even if she didn't use spy agents in Westeros, using them in Essos should have been something to consider. Gathering intel about one's neighbors is important and necessary, especially in a war torn region and when she had crippled a section of the Essosi economy. She knows she has enemies. She left Qarth knowing she had enemies and she hit three major cities knowing she was making enemies. Yet not once did she consider setting up even a rudimentary intel network to keep her informed. The closest she comes is sending Daario to Lhazar to negotiate trade (and we know how Daario likes to negotiate, I'm assuming it wasn't a completely diplomatic mission). Even in her own city she lacks a decent spy network. All of her spying is reactionary, and not truly spying at all.

But the question still remains, who would she send? In my opinion, that question should only be asked once the decision is made to utilize spies, and then still only after potential spies have been vetted. Obviously, if she has no one to send now when she's in Meereen, she'll have that same problem when she's in Pentos or at Dragonstone, or sitting on the throne in the bloody Red Keep. You can't send a spy if you don't consider the value of spies and if you don't vet potential spies.

Like you said, sending Jorah is borderline impossible and generally not a good idea anyway: he's not just a wanted criminal, he's her best adviser.

How was she supposed to hire merchants in Qarth? She had very little wealth. And even if she could find merchants willing to go to Westeros on her behalf, what does she tell them? "Oh, sorry, I don't exactly know where I'll be next month..." How will their reports be delivered to her?

I don't understand why you think she'd have the same problem in Pentos or Dragonstone? If she was in Pentos, she would be a threat to the city just like any army is; the merchants would voluntarily help her just so she left (we've witnessed this many times, including in Volantis with Aegon and the Golden Company). And if she was actually on Dragonstone it would be far easier to send her trusted advisers and bloodriders, because they would not be half a world away from her.

Utilising a spy network for other cities is a completely different idea, so I'm not sure why you brought it up (I happen to agree with you on this). But I think everyone can agree that, in Slaver's Bay, Dany didn't have time to do that. As soon as she left Astapor she was at war with the Yunkish and the Meereenese and had to face battles and travelling. But doesn't she begin to think about organising a network in Meereen? That's what the Shavepate and Reznak are supposedly for, and she talks about meeting with some of the Yunkish sellsword companies.

Once she begins moving west, it will be far easier for her to pick up information from merchants and sailors, and by the time she's approaching/crossing the Narrow Sea, it will be fairly straightforward for her to begin interacting with the lords of Westeros.

So, yeah, I stand by my initial point: this is not a weakness in Dany's strategy. It's certainly not a strength, but it also doesn't suggest any weakness or stupidity, and I think it's ridiculous to criticise her for it.

[Payme]

Nm

[Rhymes with Weak]

She doesn't really have forward thinking skills. Making a decision like this would require forward thinking skills, hence why she didn't do it.

[Payme]

Really not understanding the opinion that because Dany is not ready to go to Westeros right this second, she doesn't need to at the very least be gathering intel. Dany has already gone looking to gather an army and ships to go take back the Iron Throne. It would be a good time to be at least gathering intel, if not also searching for alliances, ya think?

[Aethermancer]

Because she is just a little girl who knows nothing of the ways of war......

:lol:

Because she is a terrible leader and has no foresight

Because that would be an informed and logical decision.

Because that would involve actual long-term strategic thinking.

:lmao: I :love: this thread so much

[Aethermancer]

As far as Dany knows, there's no rush for her to invade Westeros

And that's exactly why not gathering information on a place you plan to invade is beyond stupid. As far as she knows, there is a rush, or not, or maybe Westeros is amassing 200,000 men to come and invade Essos. I doubt Daenerys could identify half a dozen castles in Westeros or even their geographical importance to each other. These are IMPORTANT things that I'm quite surprised none of her friends have thought to mention to her.

Does that fact that Jorah himself was a spy not clue her in?

At the very least:

1. Figure out who might be possibly on her side, and start courting them. No she might not have set a date for her 'return' but I bet THEY might have some suggestions.

2. Maybe learn a bit about what situation awaits her?

3. See number 2.

[Katerine459]

And that's exactly why not gathering information on a place you plan to invade is beyond stupid. As far as she knows, there is a rush, or not, or maybe Westeros is amassing 200,000 men to come and invade Essos. I doubt Daenerys could identify half a dozen castles in Westeros or even their geographical importance to each other. These are IMPORTANT things that I'm quite surprised none of her friends have thought to mention to her.

Does that fact that Jorah himself was a spy not clue her in?

At the very least:

1. Figure out who might be possibly on her side, and start courting them. No she might not have set a date for her 'return' but I bet THEY might have some suggestions.

2. Maybe learn a bit about what situation awaits her?

3. See number 2.

Now, this is something I can see Tyrion bringing home to her. This is part of what I see his purpose to her being... instructing her in the finer points of the game of thrones, and helping her see the machinations that people go through for power (how she can't just take the word of everybody who comes and talks to her).

[jarl the climber]

I have to agree with Patrick Stormborn on this more or less. Its not even clear if she is ever going to Westeros, why go through the effort of building up a spy network there. She has the Shavepate getting intel for her in Mereen. While I agree that he is not terribly effective I do not think that he really has many sources to work with. The slaves/freedmen to a certian extent are on her side but all of the merchants and the ruling classes are more or less hostile and would refuse to work with her or take her gold. As it is her city is blockaded and most of the cities/civs except for the Lamb Men have refused to trade with her, and by her own admission without slaves Mereen has very little to offer anybody. Her main problem in Mereen is that the noble families are uniformly hostile except for the Shavepates clan and his clan is more or less poorly regarded by the other noble houses.

I think she could find some freedmen who speak the common toungue of Westeros and she has the gold for them to go to Westeros and establish themselves as traders and start giving her info and perhaps reach out to certian Lords and ascertain if there is support for her there but with Mereen under seige and closed off from the sea this is not realistic. As it is she is starting to get a steady stream of visitors from Westeros who can give her the skinny without her having to do anything. Quentyns all ready come and Tyrion and Vic have arrived and Marwyn is on the way. Aegons plans on marrying and allying himself with her so she will have a spy network on the ground set up by the GC's spymaster that she can get information from possibly. So Aegon might all ready be building her a spy network without any effort on her part.

[THElogic]

I think she simply isn't thinking of the Iron Throne or heading home yet.

[Martell Spy]

She has a bigger problem than no spies. She won't listen to information given to her about Westeros with an unbiased ear. Case in point, Stark the usurper's dog.

[Dr. Pepper]

Like you said, sending Jorah is borderline impossible and generally not a good idea anyway: he's not just a wanted criminal, he's her best adviser.

How was she supposed to hire merchants in Qarth? She had very little wealth. And even if she could find merchants willing to go to Westeros on her behalf, what does she tell them? "Oh, sorry, I don't exactly know where I'll be next month..." How will their reports be delivered to her?

I don't understand why you think she'd have the same problem in Pentos or Dragonstone? If she was in Pentos, she would be a threat to the city just like any army is; the merchants would voluntarily help her just so she left (we've witnessed this many times, including in Volantis with Aegon and the Golden Company). And if she was actually on Dragonstone it would be far easier to send her trusted advisers and bloodriders, because they would not be half a world away from her.

Utilising a spy network for other cities is a completely different idea, so I'm not sure why you brought it up (I happen to agree with you on this). But I think everyone can agree that, in Slaver's Bay, Dany didn't have time to do that. As soon as she left Astapor she was at war with the Yunkish and the Meereenese and had to face battles and travelling. But doesn't she begin to think about organising a network in Meereen? That's what the Shavepate and Reznak are supposedly for, and she talks about meeting with some of the Yunkish sellsword companies.

Once she begins moving west, it will be far easier for her to pick up information from merchants and sailors, and by the time she's approaching/crossing the Narrow Sea, it will be fairly straightforward for her to begin interacting with the lords of Westeros.

So, yeah, I stand by my initial point: this is not a weakness in Dany's strategy. It's certainly not a strength, but it also doesn't suggest any weakness or stupidity, and I think it's ridiculous to criticise her for it.

She had enough wealth in Qarth. She ends up using most of it as a bribe to meet with the Pureborn. She still had her crown, then later she claimed the three ships Illyrio sent as her own and which she freely used. Plus, she has dragons, which people paid to come and see. She never once considers paying for intel. Once, a trader called Quhuru Mo brings news, and she offers him intel instead. She's even confused when he says he feels there is no debt as he got to see dragons. And still, she doesn't consider paying for her own spies or pieces of intel. She assumes they will just come to her and does not at all consider cultivating agents on her own, despite her very first chapter in the series remarking on her lack of agents. She knows that these things are useful tools in theory, but does not recognize that in order to be useful she must actively seek to employ them.

She gains even more wealth in Slaver's Bay. She has a slave army and all of those freedmen who could be tapped as resources for gathering intelligence. All it would take is, "here's some gold (because I have plenty of it), go forth and gather news. Pay for it if you are unable to adequately acquire it on your own without being caught. Then return to me. Oh, and while you're gone, I'll be sure to care for your family or whatever else you hold dear. You will be rewarded even more upon your return or when any information you gather reaches me. I plan to stay in Meereen for x amount of time, then will move west via land." Some may take the gold and run, but some will likely return. It's a small step that would show long-term strategic thinking and something that her advisers actually did teach her at one point. It's also a lesson she knew when she was 13. She has the ability and resources to use spies, yet she doesn't. Sure, she can pick up info along the way, but she's still relying on others instead of taking the initiative and gather the intelligence that's useful to her for specific reasons. This lack of foresight will not magically disappear just because she lands in Pentos or at Dragonstone unless she recognizes the strategic value of managing the type of news that meets her ears.

[StuSeaworth]

I guess I see this as pretty impractical. Who would she send? Unless she was able to send someone who can pose as a somewhat highborn person, the best information they are going to come back with is word of mouth stories and info in taverns and on the streets.

I doubt she could just send Rakaro or Belwas to King's landing and have them listening in court.

[RedChick]

I guess I see this as pretty impractical. Who would she send? Unless she was able to send someone who can pose as a somewhat highborn person, the best information they are going to come back with is word of mouth stories and info in taverns and on the streets.

I doubt she could just send Rakaro or Belwas to King's landing and have them listening in court.

Now I have this funny image of Strong Belwas sitting in a council meeting.

[Net-Viper X]

Dany hasn't sent them because if brains were gasoline Dany wouldn't have enough to drive a piss ant's motor scooter around a dime. :D

[Dr. Pepper]

I guess I see this as pretty impractical. Who would she send? Unless she was able to send someone who can pose as a somewhat highborn person, the best information they are going to come back with is word of mouth stories and info in taverns and on the streets.

I doubt she could just send Rakaro or Belwas to King's landing and have them listening in court.

Spying in someone's court isn't the only way to gain intelligence. A large amount of news that is spread is done so in taverns and ports. We see Arya and Davos are only two examples of characters gathering intel this way. Jesters, singers and prostitutes also learn valuable information. We even have people like Varys and Illyrio who earned their wealth by sneaking into windows and stealing written secrets. In other words, one doesn't need to dine with the Queen to learn what she likes to eat.