The Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 3!

[Bran Vras]

I guess, do we know who other than Mel and Stannis believes this is the Long Night? That this isn't just a few Others and wights, but a serious apocalypse?

Up to this point in the books, I think it's basically Bloodraven (and Bran): "Now you know why you must live. [...] Because winter is coming."

The Old Bear had started to, more sense than, believe that there's something unsusual coming along with the impending winter, Mance and the wildlings have to see it, too, and I suppose that anyone who survived the Fist of First Men should be aware of it by now, provided that they've heard of the legends. However, some of them might be in denial.

To be a bit more explicit, we have Osha’s warnings and Dalla’s « What will stop the Others? ». One can perceive a worry in the Liddle, who had word of Sam's silent ravens. That's all I see.

The uncertainty about the danger is one important plot point in the story. It's one reason why Jon's men might not be loyal to him. It raises the question of the preference of hegemony over survival for every player in the game of thrones. For someone like Melisandre, it's the problematics of doomsayers at risk of being taken for charlatans.

Also, lol, yea, I wasn't sure if "simony" could be used secularly. Is there another word for that? lol, I was hoping no one would notice.

I wanted to add that I didn’t want to make you regret employing this word. It’s a medieval concept largely lost in the modern world that spiritual things must not be exchanged for mundane things such as money. The notion loses some interesting meaning when reduced to mere corruption. I was genuinely interested and I thought you had in mind to connect it somehow to the passage where giving the Gift to Stannis is discussed.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The main reason I think of Bowen Marsh as a follower of the Seven is the episode in aDwD when he suggests that the Old God followers should say their vows in the Sept. I took that to mean that he considered the Sept as a proper "default" fallback when it was too dangerous to go beyond the Wall to find a proper heart tree. I don't think any true follower of the Old Gods would react the same way Marsh does. The wildings that came south of the Wall carved faces on other types of trees when they had no access to a weirwood heart tree. In KL, Ned uses the Red Keep godswood with an oak heart tree. He doesn't use the Sept. I could be wrong about Marsh, though.

Do we really know if House Marsh is from the Neck, and sworn to House Reed? Or is that a wiki error based on the fact that Marsh is a "swampy" name? Bowen certainly isn't a crannogman.

Regarding the nightfire demand by Stannis, I think Marsh sees it as both a violation of Watch religious traditions (the Watch seems to have a Freedom of Religion policy) and as extreme political interference.

[butterbumps!]

I wanted to add that I didn’t want to make you regret employing this word. It’s a medieval concept largely lost in the modern world that spiritual things must not be exchanged for mundane things such as money. The notion loses some interesting meaning when reduced to mere corruption. I was genuinely interested and I thought you had in mind to connect it somehow to the passage where giving the Gift to Stannis is discussed.

I know the ecclesiastical meaning. I wasn't using it for mere "corruption," but because it's specifically the practice of selling offices, which was what Slynt was doing. I'm not sure how that would function wrt the Gift, though-- like offer Stannis the Gift in exchange for supporting him as LC? That would have the same secular meaning I think.

The main reason I think of Bowen Marsh as a follower of the Seven is the episode in aDwD when he suggests that the Old God followers should say their vows in the Sept. I took that to mean that he considered the Sept as a proper "default" fallback when it was too dangerous to go beyond the Wall to find a proper heart tree. I don't think any true follower of the Old Gods would react the same way Marsh does. The wildings that came south of the Wall carved faces on other types of trees when they had no access to a weirwood heart tree. In KL, Ned uses the Red Keep godswood with an oak heart tree. He doesn't use the Sept. I could be wrong about Marsh, though.

Do we really know if House Marsh is from the Neck, and sworn to House Reed? Or is that a wiki error based on the fact that Marsh is a "swampy" name? Bowen certainly isn't a crannogman.

Regarding the nightfire demand by Stannis, I think Marsh sees it as both a violation of Watch religious traditions (the Watch seems to have a Freedom of Religion policy) and as extreme political interference.

The WoIaF App confirms him as a Northman ("Place of birth: the North"). I'm pretty sure he follows the old gods, because I think it's stated that only Manderly keeps the Seven in the North. I thought Bowen counseled against the recruits going to the godswood in DwD because of the danger, not necessarily a lack of respect.

I think seeing the nightfires as a violation of the Watch's religious tolerance policy is a good suggestion.

[Mithras]

Sorry to bring future chapters but there are two examples of people changing their religions(to a certain degree).

Sam forsake the Seven and took his vows in front of the old gods. I think Sam will have more guidance from Bran. He will take the old gods completely. I expect a confrontatin between Sam and his father and surely this religious change will be one of the clashes between them.

Theon on the other hand practically became a follower of the old gods.

Marsh maybe raised as a typical northmen following the old gods but he may have embraced the Seven at the Wall.

[Bran Vras]

Do we really know if House Marsh is from the Neck, and sworn to House Reed? Or is that a wiki error based on the fact that Marsh is a "swampy" name? Bowen certainly isn't a crannogman.

The WoIaF App confirms him as a Northman ("Place of birth: the North"). I'm pretty sure he follows the old gods, because I think it's stated that only Manderly keeps the Seven in the North. I thought Bowen counseled against the recruits going to the godswood in DwD because of the danger, not necessarily a lack of respect.

I am agnostic on whether Marsh is a northman. But I wish to say that the app is not reliable (I lost all confidence in its accuracy long ago). As to whether all northmen but Manderly follow the old gods, here is a teaching of Luwin to Bran (AGoT).

“To be a knight, you must stand your vigil in a sept, and be anointed with the seven oils to consecrate your vows. In the north, only a few of the great houses worship the Seven. The rest honor the old gods, and name no knights... but those lords and their sons and sworn swords are no less fierce or loyal or honorable. A man’s worth is not marked by a ser before his name. As I have told you a hundred times before.”

In ADwD, it seems that only House Manderly among the great houses of the north (Umber, Karstark, Mormont, Flint, Dustin, Ryswell, Reed, Locke, Hornwood, Bolton, Cerwyn if I am not mistaken) follows the new gods. But I see no reason for the inexistence of smaller exceptions to the rule north=old gods. For instance Ser Wynton Stout at the Wall is a knight, hence (per Luwin) a follower of the Seven. But House Stout is seated in Barrowton, in the north.

Marsh' exclamation "Seven save us" (quoted upthread by Paper Waver) seems a good sign that he follows the Seven.

The question is not negligible since there is a designation of Jon as not quite kosher by Septon Cellador in Jon IX. I insist that Jon's dismissal of the septon (always described as drunk or ridiculous) might be taken as a disinterest or even a contempt for the Faith of the Seven. Perhaps we can trace that back psychologically to Catelyn's sept in Winterfell. In any case, Jon will care little for Cellador's views in ADwD, in spite of the moral authority held by the septon. Certainly Cellador has some influence over the men of the Watch, perhaps even on Marsh.

Edit: I looked quickly at the occurrences of the expression "Seven save us". It is used by Septa Lemore (twice), by Cellador, by Marsh, and even by a an unnamed queen's man who is said to have momentarily forgotten his Red God and also by Tyene (a septa's daughter), by Jaime, Cersei, Daven, Genna (all Lannisters) by Barristan, by Gerris Drinkwater. Draw your conclusions.

[Mithras]

"I have half a mind to take you back to King's Landing with us," Lord Rivers said to Egg, "and keep you at court as my ... guest."

"My father would not take kindly to that."

"I suppose not. Prince Maekar has a ... prickly ... nature. Perhaps I should send you back to Summerhall."

"My place is with Ser Duncan. I'm his squire."

"Seven save you both. As you wish. You're free to go."

This is from TMK. Bloodraven surely worships the old gods. To Dunk and Egg, he says "Seven save you both". I think he is invoking the gods Dunk and Egg worship to watch over them. People belong to the gods they worship and it is necessary to invoke their gods when praying for them. That must be a courtesy. With your permission, I can add another quote from Missandei.

“Honored ser. The prince is beyond pain now. His Dornish gods have taken him home.”

[Mithras]

“You’re as stupid as you are ugly, Hali,” said the tall woman [Osha]. “The boy’s worth nothing dead, but alive… gods be damned, think what Mance would give to have Benjen Stark’s own blood to hostage!”

“This beauty is her sister Val. Young Jarl beside her is her latest pet.”

“I am no man’s pet,” said Jarl, dark and fierce.

“And Val’s no man,” white-bearded Tormund snorted. “You ought to have noticed that by now, lad.”

Mance Rayder had called the dark youth a “pet” of Val, who was sister to Dalla, his own queen, which made Jarl a sort of good brother once removed to the King-beyond-the-Wall.

By the sixth hour, Jarl had moved ahead of Grigg the Goat again, and his men were widening the gap. “The Mance’s pet must want a sword,”

Why did Mance want a Stark hostage so much way from the beginning? Jarl was Val's pet but he was fool enough to not notice that. OTOH, Magnar described him as the Mance's pet.

How can a clever person like Mance seemingly not have any plan about the survival of the Free Folk once they came south of the Wall? Sooner or later, the Northern Lords would unite and slay them all. Or did Mance want to have a Stark hostage to make his puppet lord of Winterfell and marry him to wildling princess to make his puppet so that the Free Folk would be pardoned by this Lord Stark?

I think such a plan may exist and Stannis may get the notion of his puppet Lord Stark married to Val and rally the North and the wildlings to him from Mance consciously or not. In either case, I think Jon would have been Mance's pet as he always wanted, not the pet of Stannis.

I suggest keeping this frame in mind because in ADwD, things will get more complicated. When Jon first met Val, he paid no attention to her. She was grey eyed and playing with his pet Jarl. There is a remarkable change in her appearance and the impression she makes on Jon in ADwD.

“I see a woman.” He glanced at Dalla.

Mance took her by the hand and pulled her close. “My lady is blameless. I met her on my return from your father’s castle. The Halfhand was carved of old oak, but I am made of flesh, and I have a great fondness for the charms of women . . .”

Dalla was no ordinary woman. I suspect her to be a kind of wood’s witch. So her womanly charms may have supernatural origins.

Mance was very kind and polite to Jon. After he discovered his lie about the Great Ranging, he started get prickly on him.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

some things i noticed, Stannis in SOS there are "victories and victories" Stannis to Axel is simailr to what Jon will later tell Stannis

Sam wonders how Aemon knew Jon Snow didn't cast a vote at dinner (Jon's on the wall talking to Stannis). Did Ameon know they were going to make Jon an offer?

[Bran Vras]

Sam wonders how Aemon knew Jon Snow didn't cast a vote at dinner (Jon's on the wall talking to Stannis). Did Ameon know they were going to make Jon an offer?

While we do not know fully the interaction between Stannis, Aemon and Melisandre, it seems that Stannis’ offer to Jon remained a secret all along. Later in ADwD, Jon deliberately refrains from mentioning Stannis’ offer to defend himself as Axell Florent paints him as bastard entertaining an unavowed and guilty desire for his father’s seat. However, Stannis will renew the offer in Jon IV, ADwD with all his captains in attendance (including Mance). Leaks were possible from there.

The explanation of Aemon’s knowledge might lie in his extraordinary perception. In three occasions, the blind maester is able to hear conversations and identify voices from across large crowded rooms. Hence I think he is able to realize that Jon Snow is not present among the voters.

Indeed, Jon has no interest in the election, and spends his time fighting in the yard. He is grieving for Ygritte and his brothers, Sam tells us. He seems resigned to Slynt’s victory. Since Lord Janos has named him a turncloak, a traitor’s bastard, and a warg, that would mean for Jon a bland career as a steward, at best. At worst, it could be simply be death, like when Jon was sent to assassinate the King-beyond-the-Wall.

When he joined the Watch, Jon thought he could easily become someone like his uncle. Even after the initial disillusionment, he was favoured by Mormont, and given a privileged place for a newcomer. After the recent events, the Watch seems less promising than ever, which makes the lordship of Winterfell all the more tempting for Jon.

Of course, this is not a justification for oathbreaking, which accepting Stannis’ offer would be. Especially since the understanding that Jon has of the mission of the Watch must have evolved: Tyrion’s derision in AGoT (Snarks and grumkins) isn’t credible anymore and the purpose of the Watch to defend the realm against the danger beyond the Wall is firmly re-established. So the duty of the men who have sworn the oath is now urgent and should prevail against personal ambition.

Jon might reason that a Stark in Winterfell is a stronger asset for the Watch than a bastard among his stewards (compare with Bloodraven who has kept his cloak while he sat on his weirwood throne). But would that be honest?

[butterbumps!]

Hey everyone! Lummel's been having some log-in issues, so I'm posting the summary he sent me for Jon XII, the final aSoS Jon chapter:

Jon XII ASOS

Overview

The last chapter of this final third of Jon and Sam's arc in ASOS, the penultimate chapter in ASOS. Winterfell, a key presence ever since Stannis' offer in Jon XI, will be rebuilt in snow by Sansa in the next chapter. This chapter happens either shortly after the previous Sam chapter or might even overlap with it.

The chapter is divided into three parts, like Gaul under the Romans, Jon's training session in the practise yard with Iron Emmett which gives him Winterfell flash backs, a middle meditative and reflective section and then finally, the election. The election marks the beginning of a new stage – Jon as ruler and so parallels the last Daenerys ASOS chapter. While she “achieves greatness” Jon is among those others who “have greatness thrust upon them”.

Observations

“In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett” - well there's one more for Mirijam's list of Elk incidents or just an indication of how much passion Jon has for Winterfell.

“Winterfell belongs to the old gods” - but not my father's gods

Bowen Marsh has a letter from Tywin, presumably the one described in ASOS

Jon feels the cold of the wall even as he felt the heat of Melisandre in Jon XI

“A son was something Jon had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall” compare with his reaction to Benjen suggesting that he might father a child before going to the Wall in Jon I AGOT. Still waters run deep?

“May the gods forgive me” even the desire for Winterfell is illicit

The Wall blocks Jon's perception of Ghost – but does it affect more powerful persons in the same way?

Two references to the death of Qhorin Halfhand, one joking and one serious, in the chapter. Jon is the source of the story – illustrates that tales spread around the watch.

“hang him for a turncloak and a warg” interesting that being a warg is a capital offence!

“He walked across the castle, wondering if he was dreaming, with the raven on his shoulder and Ghost at his heels” - quite an image

“The Wall was his, the night was dark, and he had a king to face.”

Analysis

The Biblical parallel

The idea of comparing Jon XIII ADWD with John 13 from the New Testament has been present for a while on the board, so I took a look at John 12 – it is the chapter in which Jesus is anointed and then hailed as King. There is even a heavenly voice if we are looking for the part played by Mormont's raven. Are there parallels between Jon VIII ACOK and John 8 or Jon IX AGOT and John 9?

And elsewhere in other beliefs...

Of course the religious parallels aren't all Christian. At the end of the chapter Lord Snow leaves with Mormont's raven on his shoulder and Ghost by his side. Both ravens and wolves were associated with Woden/Odin but he was also a figure who died or at least came close to death in order to gain secret knowledge which brings us back to the knot of associations involving sacrifice around Jon.

Bastard, Traitor, Warg

Slynt's accusations form an easy framework for the chapter. The opening section sees Jon remember that “you can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard born” (note how the role of being Lord of Winterfell is equivalent to named heroes of chivalry). The blood in the mouth from the blow he had taken both frames the this memory and emphases the emotional wound which is still raw, although largely hidden or denied “I thought I had forgotten that”.

Unfortunately to make life easy the offer of Winterfell comes from Stannis. His eyes remind Jon of Catelyn. Jon's impression of both is of brittleness. The association of Stannis with Catelyn suggests a greater reserve in Jon towards Stannis than we might have expected after reading Jon XI. Note how Jon's reoccuring dream of the crypts and his memory of Catelyn come together in his mind. Both the ancestors and his Father's wife seem to be denying Jon a place in Winterfell. A theme all the way through Jon's arc is where is his place. The prospect of Janos Slynt winning the election promise a short future for Jon on the Wall. He wasn't a wildling and he is clearly conflicted over Winterfell. “Ygritte wanted me to be a Wildling. Stannis wants me to be the lord of Winterfell”. So what is to become of him?

To possess Winterfell Jon must be a traitor to the Stark tradition and burn the weirwood. Soaking in the bath reminds Jon of the muddy pools before the Weirwood, which reminds us of his dream of Ygritte dissolving into those waters. There's a phyiscality to Jon's thoughts about Winterfell. They are solid, rooted, the individual however is nothing before the power of the old gods. The Weirwood red and the white of Ghost's eyes and fur surprise Jon again as they did in Jon VI AGOT. This simple emotional realisation makes Jon decide that he will turn down Stannis' offer. “He had his answer then” Again as with the Old Man and as in Jon XIII ADWD the decision comes through images and is an emotional reaction, not calculated or intellectual.

What is particularly interesting about this is that he is convinced that Slynt will win the election and that this may well mean his death (“Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos...”). Does this mean that Jon is prepared to become a martyr for the old gods? Also this isn't an intellectual decision, nor is Jon prepared to negotiate with Stannis over his proposal– he is prepared to accept the probability of death rather than to destroy the Winterfell weirwood. Winterfell belongs to the old gods. Interesting statement. Winterfell belongs not to the Lord of Wintefell, not to the Stark in Winterfell but to the old gods. The implication is that the Stark in Winterfell holds it trust for them, is this why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell – to protect it for the old gods?

I thought the transition from Jon's Winterfell hunger to Ghost's taste for deer was pretty smooth. There's a touch of Don Quixote and Sancho Panza here, crazy dreams, building castles in the air contrasted with the need for food that leads the two into the election scene.

Oddly there isn't more surprise and panic when Jon turns up in Castle Black among Stannis' soldiers with Ghost, perhaps GRRM was saving the negative reaction for Slynt to express, or again possibly Slynt's extreme reaction reflects attitudes at court in Kings Landing? Nor is there ant comment from the Watchmen.

Clearly Sam managed to swing the block votes of Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower behind Jon, but I wonder if Jon's warg status also helps him. A warg is after all powerful, but this is the watch's warg, on their side. Rather as Sam plays upon Jon's bastard status to suggest that he is a rough and tumble character, perhaps Ghost has a similar effect suggesting to the Watch that they can fight against Wildlings using their own weapons? Yes he's a bastard, traitor and a warg, but he's our bastard, traitor and warg...

Elections in ASOIAF

What is power and who has it are central themes in ASOIAF so it is no surprise that there a lot of elections through the course of the series. Firstly the election of the Baratheon kings: Robert, Stannis and Renly as well as that of Robb Stark to be King of the North and the Riverlands (a Wolf with a fish in its mouth?). Then the elections of two High Septons. There are elections in Volontis and perhaps Pentos as well as the two which get the most pages devoted to them: the Kingsmoot and Jon's election to be Lord Commander.

The elected is both publicly invested with power by their supporters while potentially manipulated into power by backroom fixers at the same time (though Sam, perhaps with some assistance from Bloodraven, succeeds while Damphair fails, block votes are more useful than controlling the procedure it seems !). This encourages us not to think of the elected person as simply powerful but of occupying a greyzone between exercising their own authority, being beholden to those who support them and influenced by those who got them elected in the first place (Euron can't get the Ironborn to do what he wants, he has to lead them to do what they want, to achieve his own objectives he relies on his brother and those loyal to Victarion).

Characters like Illyrio are explicit in preferring to exercise power behind the scenes rather than become the political figurehead. “Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less...A shadow on the wall” (Tyrion II ACOK).

Where does this leave Jon? Does the watch vote for him for positive reasons – he's our bastard, tough with magic powers and of Stark heritage - or for negative reasons – he's better than the alternatives.

In the King's Moot the candidates attempt to win votes through their vision. One is too dreamy, one is too rooted in past glories, another too practical, Euron is just right and appeals to the crowd's desire for plunder.

In the Lord Commander Election people are speaking about issues, but this is largely hidden from us. We know that Dolorous Edd proposes Jon as a candidate, but we don't know what he said only that there is uproar in the hall when Jon arrives. There is consideration of the requirements of the job. The Lord Commander has to be capable of conducting himself as a Great Lord (Mallister), the Lord Commander has to be a fighter (Pyke) the Lord Commander has to be politically acceptable to the powers that be (Thorne), it's better to have served for longer on the wall, to be a stark – or perhaps more generally the blood of a respected person - and to have served the previous Lord Commander (Yarwyck). In the aftermath of the election does Jon have to be his own champion, harper and fool to create an effective base for his authority?

Initially this chapter seemed to end on an upbeat note, but on consideration it becomes darker. There are people who don't support Jon, Stannis' mere presence on the Wall and engagement with the Watch opens a gulf between the Watch and Kings Landing. The shadow of further conflict lies over the wall as ASOS ends.

[Fire Eater]

Nice job, bumps!

"Snow."
Sam glanced up at the sound. Lord Commander Mormont's raven was circling the fire, beating the air with wide black wings.

Drogon's wide black wings beat the air.

From FrozenFire3, foreshadowing for Jon's heritage as well as him possibly mounting Drogon.

Jon's fight with Iron Emmett reminds me of a legend I heard in grade school. When he was a young boy, Alexander the Great was training with Ptolemy with Alexander getting tired and Ptolemy having the upper hand, until Alexander flew into berserker mode and knocked Ptolemy's shield from his hand, and was slashing is shield into splinters.

When Jon and Robb fought, Jon said he was Aemon the Dragonknight and Ryman Redwyne, both LCs of the KG. Another king hint for Jon?

Jon wrenched free of his friends, and returned to the armory, alone.

Jon takes up residence in Noye's quarters in the armory. This can be foreshadowing that Jon isolates himself from his friends when he becomes LC, and goes it alone in his position.

[Bran Vras]

Nice job, bumps!

Let's give to Caesar what is due to Caesar. He has divided Gaul in three parts after all: thanks to Lummel.

I have a different perspective on the election that requires a long elaboration (I will post later) and will resonate, I think, with the OP’s thought on the nature of power. Lummel's general reflections are spot on, despite missing a central element in the chapter.

For now I would like to submit the following reflection on the second part of Lummel’s tripartite analysis. The Jon/Stannis relationship has been compared to the Ned/Robert association in the analysis of Jon XI by Ragnorak. Why not continue in this vein? It leads to a pretty interesting conclusion.

Jon is surprisingly lucid in his acknowledgment that he wants Winterfell. Most characters in ASoIaF are not so honest with their desires. I have suggested upthread that he could rationalize that a Stark in Winterfell would be for the best of the Night’s Watch. To his credit, the argument never comes to him. But he thinks of providing shelter for the two babies currently at the Wall. This is an echo of Ned's trademark: the protection of children. While Jon acknowledges the state of his heart, Ned wasn’t as honest when he accepted Robert’s offer. Let’s re-examine.

Here is the passage when Ned Stark is convinced to go south by Luwin and Catelyn. (Catelyn II, AGoT)

“The Hand of the King has great power, my lord. Power to find the truth of Lord Arryn’s death, to bring his killers to the king’s justice. Power to protect Lady Arryn and her son, if the worst be true.”

Ned glanced helplessly around the bedchamber. Catelyn’s heart went out to him, but she knew she could not take him in her arms just then. First the victory must be won, for her children’s sake. “You say you love Robert like a brother. Would you leave your brother surrounded by Lannisters?”

“The Others take both of you,” Ned muttered darkly.

Jon’s thoughts follow closely those of his father on protecting the weak. (Jon XII, ASoS)

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister’s son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly’s boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We’d find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance’s son and Craster’s would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. it was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger... he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

Should we attribute to Ned a similar desire? Ned is influenced by Maester Luwin and Catelyn (who are precisely non-representative of the old gods) and their debate does not occur under the auspices of the heart tree of Winterfell. Compare with the preceding chapters Catelyn I, AGoT, under the heart tree, and Eddard I, AGoT, in the crypts. Ned seems determined to decline the offer then. Here is Robert’s offer. (Eddard I, AGoT)

Ned dropped to one knee. The offer did not surprise him; what other reason could Robert have had for coming so far? The Hand of the King was the second-most powerful man in the Seven Kingdoms. He spoke with the king’s voice, commanded the king’s armies, drafted the king’s laws. At times he even sat upon the Iron Throne to dispense king’s justice, when the king was absent, or sick, or otherwise indisposed. Robert was offering him a responsibility as large as the realm itself.

It was the last thing in the world he wanted.

“Your Grace,” he said. “I am not worthy of the honor.”

Robert groaned with good-humored impatience. “If I wanted to honor you, I’d let you retire. I am planning to make you run the kingdom and fight the wars while I eat and drink and wench myself into an early grave.”

Despite being determined to refuse, Ned is impressed by the power offered to him. After being convinced by Catelyn and Luwin, Ned thinks of his father.

“The Others take both of you,” Ned muttered darkly. He turned away from them and went to the window. She did not speak, nor did the maester. They waited, quiet, while Eddard Stark said a silent farewell to the home he loved. When he turned away from the window at last, his voice was tired and full of melancholy, and moisture glittered faintly in the corners of his eyes. “My father went south once, to answer the summons of a king. He never came home again.”

It’s easy now to combine with Barbrey Dustin’s denunciation of Rickard Stark’s "southron ambitions" (indeed Brandon was destined to become hand of the king) to have coherent picture of three generations of Starks tempted by power in the south, which leads to the looming question.

Should we see Ned Stark as betraying his duty as a Stark and betraying the old gods for accepting Robert’s offer?

Ned gave the direwolves to his children, and had none as his own. Ghost’s arrival prevents Jon from succumbing to the temptation.

Jon feels guilty and asks to be forgiven by the gods as he feels the desire for Winterfell mounting in him. Did Jon submit himself to the judgement of the old gods by going beyond the Wall for his deliberation, and sitting on a tree stump? Should we see in Ghost’s appearance an answer to a prayer? (Compare with Jaqen's appearance to Arya in Harrenhal, and the washerwomen coming to Theon in Winterfell. Prayers are answered.)

Little things.

Hey everyone! Lummel's been having some log-in issues, so I'm posting the summary he sent me for Jon XII, the final aSoS Jon chapter:

[...]

“In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett” - well there's one more for Mirijam's list of Elk incidents or just an indication of how much passion Jon has for Winterfell.

[...]

Two references to the death of Qhorin Halfhand, one joking and one serious, in the chapter. Jon is the source of the story – illustrates that tales spread around the watch.

“hang him for a turncloak and a warg” interesting that being a warg is a capital offence!

Could Mirijam remind us of those elk’s moments? I suppose they include the attempted strangling of Thorne in Jon IX.

Don’t forget Rattleshirt’s tales to Slynt and Thorne. Qhorin Halfhand and his men had their suspicions after Jon’s wolf’s dreams. But the Lord of Bones is the one who plainly identified Jon as a warg, and reported it to Slynt and Thorne, along his version of the Halfhand’s death.

Yes, hanging Jon for being a warg resonates with Haggon the skinchanger's assertion that wargs are hunted without mercy in the south.

[Mithras]

Jon feels guilty and asks to be forgiven by the gods as he feels the desire for Winterfell mounting in him. Did Jon submit himself to the judgement of the old gods by going beyond the Wall for his deliberation, and sitting on a tree stump? Should we see in Ghost’s appearance an answer to a prayer? (Compare with Jaqen's appearance to Arya in Harrenhal, and the washerwomen coming to Theon in Winterfell. Prayers are answered.)

There was the bole of an olive tree with long leaves growing strongly in the courtyard, and it was thick, like a column. I laid down my chamber around this … Then I cut away the foliage of the long-leaved olive, and trimmed the trunk from the roots up, planning it with a brazen adze, well and expertly, and trued it straight to a chalkline, making a bedpost of it, and bored all hones with an auger.

The bed of Odysseus was basically carved from the stump of an olive tree which was sacred to the gods. That was the last test to fully crack the ice between Odysseus and his dear wife.

Theon saw this strange dream (The Feast of the Dead) while he was "The Prince of Winterfell" and sleeping in Ned's bed. The dead Starks and their household were feasting. Strangely, Jon dreams the same all the time, only difference is that he does not attend the feast, he hears the sound. Theon's dreams were not normal dreams. He was like the suitors in Odysseia, constantly warned about the impending doom by the gods and the people but not heeding any attention.

I am not sure whether the nature of the bed was explained to us. Is it possible that the bed of Ned was carved from a weirwood tree stump by Bran the Builder and this secret is forgotten by the Starks long ago?

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you need to be connected to the WWN to skin change across the wall, maybe because there is a weir wood built in at the night fort

[Arya Targaryen]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you need to be connected to the WWN to skin change across the wall, maybe because there is a weir wood built in at the night fort

It may be right, though I'm not so sure about that. Bran managed to reach out for Jon in ACOK, while he was in the WF crypts and Jon was beyond the Wall. However it is possible that Bran used the WWN unconsciously, as he appeared as a weirwood tree in Jon's dreams.

[Mithras]

I personally dont believe the theory that the Wall blocks warg telepathy. Varamyr should be flying his eagle in and out without any loss of signal. If the magical boundary is only limited to the solid ice of the Wall, then the Others can build giant trebuchets and throw themselves over the Wall. Or they can cast a massive blizzard to pile up a snow hill and simply walk over it.That does not make sense to me.

I also believe BR from time to time takes residence in Ghost without Jon realizing it (like the case where Ghost led Jon to the dragonglass stash). I think it is more likely that BR wanted to keep a significant part of Jon (which is Ghost) away from him for a period. So he blocked Jon not the Wall.

It may also be related to the fact that Jon is fighting his nature rather than embracing it. He says "I am not a wolf" just like Robb while Arya (and Bran) says "I am a wolf" all the time.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

What is the first important consequence of Jon's election as LC?

"Supper," screamed the raven. "Supper, supper."

The hungry men he now leads get to eat.

A bit of foreshadowing, perhaps?

We observed Jon the Hiltmaker (for the dragonglass dagger blades, or for the legendary hiltless sword that is magic) upthread. Now we see Jon the Foodbringer. Jon is collecting sobriquets.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Lord Janos was red-faced and quivering. "The beast," he gasped. "Look! The beast that tore the life from Halfhand. A warg walks among us, brothers. A WARG! This...this creature is not fit to lead us! This beastling is not fit to live!"

Slynt goes way over the top on the warg issue. He never even knew Qhorin. It seems to be a major personal prejudice on his part. Jojen told Bran that some people might react like this, but we've never seen it until now. Most of the NW were neutral towards Ghost, and Mormont and Qhorin saw him as an asset.

Slynt is a commoner from the Crownlands, right? I don't see how he could have ever had a traumatic personal experience connected to a warg. Did someone tell him scary warg stories when he was a child? It seems like an aberration. Or is he making an issue of it for political reasons, to help him win the election? I read this as a genuine reaction on Slynt's part, not acting.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

It may be right, though I'm not so sure about that. Bran managed to reach out for Jon in ACOK, while he was in the WF crypts and Jon was beyond the Wall. However it is possible that Bran used the WWN unconsciously, as he appeared as a weirwood tree in Jon's dreams.

That was after Ghost "howled" and Ghost may very well be connected to the network

[Lummel]

Hello, hello, my weirnet connection is resolved and I'm glad to be able to be back with you all!

...Jon wrenched free of his friends, and returned to the armory, alone.

Jon takes up residence in Noye's quarters in the armory. This can be foreshadowing that Jon isolates himself from his friends when he becomes LC, and goes it alone in his position.

yeeessss. Could be. I mean in general terms I agree, but in specifics I'm not sure if he has moved into the Armoury yet. In Jon XI he still has his own cell as someplace distinct from the armoury. My sense of the phrase is that in Jon XII he's returning the gear to the armoury but that he hasn't moved in there yet. iirc correctly he takes up residence there after his election.

...Theon saw this strange dream (The Feast of the Dead) while he was "The Prince of Winterfell" and sleeping in Ned's bed. The dead Starks and their household were feasting. Strangely, Jon dreams the same all the time, only difference is that he does not attend the feast, he hears the sound. Theon's dreams were not normal dreams. He was like the suitors in Odysseia, constantly warned about the impending doom by the gods and the people but not heeding any attention.

I am not sure whether the nature of the bed was explained to us. Is it possible that the bed of Ned was carved from a weirwood tree stump by Bran the Builder and this secret is forgotten by the Starks long ago?

There is no suggestion in the books that any of the beds in winterfell are made from weirwood. At times the idea has been generally accepted on these forums, but having gone through all the winterfell chapters several times there is no mention of the beds being made of weirwood or being white or any suggestion that they might be.

Jon is also having abnormal dreams. I note that in the appendix to ADWD that Bloodraven is referred to as a dreamwalker. Make of that what you will.

...The hungry men he now leads get to eat.

A bit of foreshadowing, perhaps?

We observed Jon the Hiltmaker (for the dragonglass dagger blades, or for the legendary hiltless sword that is magic) upthread. Now we see Jon the Foodbringer. Jon is collecting sobriquets.

Something that is common in saints lives is the miraculous provision of food. Either making food out of apparently nothing, or being able to provide food in times of want and starvation. It is interesting that you pick up on that - Jon as foodbringer is a motive that reoccurs in ADWD, there is the apple or an onion scene, there is the inspection of the larders, there is the negotiations over the loan to buy food. Hunger and satisfaction (thinking of Arya, hungry but not for food) can be stand ins for other needs too, but I'm not sure if that is the case for Jon here. But the suggestion of Jon as provider, giving nourishment is interesting.

Slynt goes way over the top on the warg issue. He never even knew Qhorin. It seems to be a major personal prejudice on his part. Jojen told Bran that some people might react like this, but we've never seen it until now. Most of the NW were neutral towards Ghost, and Mormont and Qhorin saw him as an asset.

Slynt is a commoner from the Crownlands, right? I don't see how he could have ever had a traumatic personal experience connected to a warg. Did someone tell him scary warg stories when he was a child? It seems like an aberration. Or is he making an issue of it for political reasons, to help him win the election? I read this as a genuine reaction on Slynt's part, not acting.

Yes it is quite over the top and he seems to be the only one who reacts in that way. I'm happy to go with the scary bedtime warg stories theory! :laugh: