Arryn connections

[Hippocras]

Which is all fine, but you have to expect people not to agree when a theory really is pure speculation.

Like The Weirwoods Eyes said, love can turn to utter hater in a blink of an eye. I do believe when he was younger, and even when he was older, that he truly did love Catelyn, but then it turned to hatred.

Marrying Catelyn gets him nothing, the Lady usually goes to live with the husband/Lord, especially since Tully lands are Edmure's', not Catelyn's.

I am fine with disagreement. I objected only to them saying we should not speculate at all. I mean, why the hell not? It is interesting. The story could go a number of interesting directions if true.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I don't think LF would have ever become what he is if he had not ended up in KL actually. No Duel no embarrassment, no rejection no broken heart.

No resentment No drive to beat the system, no relationship with Lysa no master of coin,

no master of coin, embarrassment, or resentment or pain = no scheming power grabs. = Life at the Fingers with a very much adored wife and several kiddies.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I'm prety sure there is a no Fan Fic rule on this forum and IMO speculating with NO source is sailing pretty close to Fan Fic.

You can argue why you feel a theory is plausible till the cows come home IF you have textural evidence to back up why you think it is so. But just pulling things out of the air is cutting it close. IMO

There are crackpots and then there are colanders.

[Hippocras]

I do have text evidence.

The theory is character based.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Is it? how? because LF is a schemer?

Hey how about you actually write a clear concise summery of your theory, that way people can actually judge its merits. Right now its speckled throughout the thread with contradictions and vague allusions.

[Hippocras]

Is it? how? because LF is a schemer?

Hey how about you actually write a clear concise summery of your theory, that way people can actually judge its merits. Right now its speckled throughout the thread with contradictions and vague allusions.

I really don't get the point of being annoyed or angry about this. Seriously.

If you don't want to speculate about the possibility that LF's interest in the Tullys was about collecting inheritances then avoid this thread. You don't have to come here if it bothers you so much.

The theory is an extension of what we know about LF: He is a cold hearted murderer, manipulator and schemer. We have never once seen him undertake an act of love of any kind.

We know for a fact that he lies, constantly. Yet people are annoyed by the suggestion his "love" for Catelyn was a lie as well? Please. It is entirely probable.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I'm not angry, I'm just trying to make you aware of how things usually work round here.

And people are merely disputing your belief that his love for Catlyn was false. There is nothing intext to indicate that it was not real and everything to indicate that his current personality is a result of his heart break after realising he could never be with her and that all these Noble Lords & Ladies were looking down on him as an upjumped sellswords grandson and laughing at his desire to be respected as an equal.

Its very plausable that LF has a huge chip on his shoulder and resents the way he was treated by the class system in Westeros. Even now he's still seen as "new Money" and people sniff at him and snigger of his modest keep and Bravossi descent.

So you feel that everything we've been shown in text about his motivations for the schemes he plays is a lie, ok well it seems plenty of people on this thread don't.

No one is angry at you we're just disagreeing. And I am trying to outline how the forum usually works. No Fan Fiction. Its one of the rules. There fore if you have a crackpot you are expected to base it on direct textural reference, hints in the text or even simply the way other storylines have played out ie: mirroring. Foreshadowing or direct textural evidence.

If you just pluck stuff out of thin air or say this character is a liar there fore I think everything we've been told regarding him is a lie, you will be asked to back that up. I could say oh I don't know. Ned Lied about Jon's parentage there fore I think everything he ever said and did was a lie. Or Lysa lied about who killed Jon Arryn there fore everything she said was a lie she never loved Peytr or SR.

Now I doubt either of those examples are the case, and if I want to present them for speculation I would expect for some people to come up with textural evidence that these two statements are wrong.

Using the text as it is written people have come up with reasons your theory on Peytr Baelish having plotted as a small child to gain lands via a Tully marriage and or has a plan to inherit the Eyrie through the Stark line without the need for Harry are both unsubstantiated. There is very real reason to believe he really did fall in love with Cat and there are no hints at all in text that the Arryns wedded the Starks at a point recent enough to provide a claim.

Things like an extension of what we already know about a character are great additional points to use to back up an already supported theory. But without a few in text hints they amount to naught.

[Leonardo]

Why not? It is not like WoW is out and we have that to discuss. Speculation is interesting as long as it is not treated as fact.

Problem is that Harry dying means Sansa no longer has the Vale, and hell probably gets her and LF both chucked out or killed.

There is no Sansa getting the Vale any other way but through Harry or SR.

We know for a fact there is already a branch of the Arryns in Gulltown, and there are likely intermarriages with their lords bannermen throughout the history, so right there is a number of people who will inherit first.

Hell Daenerys probably a better claim on the Vale than Sansa. The North is traditionally isolationist, they don't often intermarry into the southron houses.

[Hippocras]

I'm not angry, I'm just trying to make you aware of how things usually work round here.

And people are merely disputing your belief that his love for Catlyn was false. There is nothing intext to indicate that it was not real and everything to indicate that his current personality is a result of his heart break after realising he could never be with her and that all these Noble Lords & Ladies were looking down on him as an upjumped sellswords grandson and laughing at his desire to be respected as an equal.

Its very plausable that LF has a huge chip on his shoulder and resents the way he was treated by the class system in Westeros. Even now he's still seen as "new Money" and people sniff at him and snigger of his modest keep and Bravossi descent.

So you feel that everything we've been shown in text about his motivations for the schemes he plays is a lie, ok well it seems plenty of people on this thread don't.

No one is angry at you we're just disagreeing. And I am trying to outline how the forum usually works. No Fan Fiction. Its one of the rules. There fore if you have a crackpot you are expected to base it on direct textural reference, hints in the text or even simply the way other storylines have played out ie: mirroring. Foreshadowing or direct textural evidence.

If you just pluck stuff out of thin air or say this character is a liar there fore I think everything we've been told regarding him is a lie, you will be asked to back that up. I could say oh I don't know. Ned Lied about Jon's parentage there fore I think everything he ever said and did was a lie. Or Lysa lied about who killed Jon Arryn there fore everything she said was a lie she never loved Peytr or SR.

Now I doubt either of those examples are the case, and if I want to present them for speculation I would expect for some people to come up with textural evidence that these two statements are wrong.

Using the text as it is written people have come up with reasons your theory on Peytr Baelish having plotted as a small child to gain lands via a Tully marriage and or has a plan to inherit the Eyrie through the Stark line without the need for Harry are both unsubstantiated. There is very real reason to believe he really did fall in love with Cat and there are no hints at all in text that the Arryns wedded the Starks at a point recent enough to provide a claim.

Things like an extension of what we already know about a character are great additional points to use to back up an already supported theory. But without a few in text hints they amount to naught.

Well the way Catelyn described their kissing experiments seems like it was not love at all to me. That description sounded to me like sexual aggression. There is not a single memory Catelyn has of him doing something that was ever in any way loving. He kissed both sisters indiscriminately. He took more than Catelyn ever offered. I look for evidence of love in the text and find none at all except his words. The words of a known liar.

[Hippocras]

Problem is that Harry dying means Sansa no longer has the Vale, and hell probably gets her and LF both chucked out or killed.

There is no Sansa getting the Vale any other way but through Harry or SR.

We know for a fact there is already a branch of the Arryns in Gulltown, and there are likely intermarriages with their lords bannermen throughout the history, so right there is a number of people who will inherit first.

Hell Daenerys probably a better claim on the Vale than Sansa. The North is traditionally isolationist, they don't often intermarry into the southron houses.

This thread aimed to speculate that may not be true, and what if it turns out that Catelyn's grandmother was an Arryn.

My hope was to discuss the story possibilities this would open up. But instead we are bickering about evidence, which is not quite as fun.

[Leonardo]

This thread aimed to speculate that may not be true, and what if it turns out that Catelyn's grandmother was an Arryn.

My hope was to discuss the story possibilities this would open up. But instead we are bickering about evidence, which is not quite as fun.

Because if she was recently descended at all, then they wouldn't be marrying her off to Harry

They would just need to be seeing a few people die off, or just get enough people to support her claim over a few others as there aren't a ton of recently descended people aside from the cadet Arryn branch in Gulltown.

[Hippocras]

Because if she was recently descended at all, then they wouldn't be marrying her off to Harry

They would just need to be seeing a few people die off, or just get enough people to support her claim over a few others as there aren't a ton of recently descended people aside from the cadet Arryn branch in Gulltown.

This is quite true - if the marriage even happens.

But some people have speculated LF will kill Robert and frame Harry. It is a theory with no evidence, but still. If LF REALLY plans for Sansa to marry Harry, he must realize he will lose control of her at that point. His sexual moves on her will make less sense because he will not be able to marry her himself, as he seems to want to do.

So say LF believes her to be next in line after Harry - he still controls her, He still has the Vale if Harry dies, and he has the appearance of innocence because he tried to marry one heir to another, not set them up in competition.

[Minsc]

And people are merely disputing your belief that his love for Catlyn was false. There is nothing intext to indicate that it was not real

There is nothing to indicate that it was real also and the fact that he is extremely awful to her points to it being false, simply one doesn't destroy the life and family of someone they love because they are angry they didn't get together because the other followed the authority of their family.

[Hippocras]

There is nothing to indicate that it was real also and the fact that he is extremely awful to her points to it being false, simply one doesn't destroy someone they love life and family because they are angry they didn't get together because the other followed the authority of their family.

I agree

[Leonardo]

This is quite true - if the marriage even happens.

But some people have speculated LF will kill Robert and frame Harry. It is a theory with no evidence, but still. If LF REALLY plans for Sansa to marry Harry, he must realize he will lose control of her at that point. His sexual moves on her will make less sense because he will not be able to marry her himself, as he seems to want to do.

So say LF believes her to be next in line after Harry - he still controls her, He still has the Vale if Harry dies, and he has the appearance of innocence because he tried to marry one heir to another, not set them up in competition.

I think you are underestimating LF's ability to manipulate and get what he wants(not to mention he still holds the Vale right now) and overestimating how clever Harry may or may not be

LF wouldn't be marrying her to him if he didn't think he could control the both of them - killing Harry gets him nothing but a chance to be caught, while if he is tractable he holds the Vale, the North, and the Riverlands all together once he can rally his own bannermen to his cause by using their armies.

She's definitely not in line after Harry though, and she is definitely behind the Gulltown Arryns

And if LF didn't love Cat, then what was the duel with Brandon?

Brandon by rights could have killed him and no one would have batted an eye.

His spurned love for cat is the entire catalyst that created the character we have now in him. Like Varys becoming a eunuch, it was such a powerfully negative experience that it drove them to near madness and many would say genius.

[Winnief]

Also, if we're going to deal with hypotheticals, Sansa might well end up marrying a rightful Vale heir who takes over following the deaths of SR and HtH-a member of one of those poor but proud Arryn branches out there. When recounting the fate of all of the daughter of Elys and Alys, he did seem to spend a lot of time on that one daughter who married a gallant young Arryn from a poor branch of the family...maybe history will repeat itself?!?

I think its entirely possible that Sansa might find a new husband in the Vale...but it might be someone of her choosing rather than Lord Baelish's....

[HexMachina]

I think its time to stop ovwr complicating things for.some of us. If we decide to disbelieve everything we are told about LF (or any other character for that matter) it changes from intriguing mysteries to downright bad storytelling

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I think that Littlefinger confused his obsession for Catelyn for love. That's all.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Actually, a year or two after the marriage, Hoster and Edmure would have died under vastly different circumstances, with any remote suspicion about the nature of the deaths directed deftly at some other person who happened to be in the way of LF's ambitions.

Catelyn was next in the Tully line of succession after Edmure.

LOL

He was a teenage boy, a ward of the Tullys. He had no influence and is unlikely to of planned 2 or more people's demise down the line.

He became who he was in part because of the way he was treated by the Tullys, not before it. And he has gained his influence over the years by working in three of the 5 cities and controlling desirable positions and making the right contacts. He would never of been able to do that at Riverrun.

[GinesthoiOfIce]

In this case, I think that there are only two possibilities for Sansa to get the Vale in her own right :

1) I read somewhere here I think that somehow, Jon Arryn could have decided to make Ned Stark his heir before the War, when Sweetrobin was obviously not even conceived and Brandon not yet dead. It's really unlikely but well, still a possibility, especially considering how old Jon Arryn was already at the time.

It would still be a very hard claim to press on, would require hard to find proof and real desire from the bannermen of the Vale to follow Sansa.

2) SweetRobin names Sansa as heir. Would be a kind of Edward VI/ Jane Grey situation with, hopefully, a better issue for Sansa. Of course, this, just as the first option, would require the reveal of Alayne as Sansa, since well, blood ties (even on the wrong side) do better in inheritance laws than mere liking of the person.