Stannis, Victarion or Kevan - Who is/was the most dutiful younger brother?

[No Song so Sweet]

Seriously? What is worse than murder and when did Renly did that?

Renly gathered an army against his brother and declared war against him, betraying him in the process even though he had no rights. That's worse than murder.

[Sullen]

Renly gathered arms against his brother and declared war against him, even though he had no rights and that was a betrayal. That's worse than murder.

Renly gathered arms against his nephew and declared war on him, not his brother.

He even expected his brother to join him, in case you had forgotten.

Stannis is the one who declared war on Renly, not the other way around.

[Lord Reaver]

I'm not sure I follow. Stannis is not younger than Renly.

Which is quite beside the point. If you're going to take it that literally, take Vic off the list entirely, since he cannot be compared, apparently.

All three of them are devoted to their eldest brother. Two of them have younger brothers to whom they are less devoted. Just because Vic is 3rd and not 2nd shouldn't really matter.

[David Selig]

Renly gathered an army against his brother and declared war against him, betraying him in the process even though he had no rights. That's worse than murder.

Stannis did the same. How the hell is gathering an army but not using it in battle worse than a murder anyway?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Renly gathered an army against his brother

No. He gathered an army against the Lannisters. Back then, Stannis had never expressed any interest in the Iron Throne.

and declared war against him,

No. Stannis attacked Renly, not the other way around.

betraying him in the process even though he had no rights. That's worse than murder.

If crowning oneself with no regard to superior claims is worse than a murder, then - logically - Robb was worse than Joffrey. Dude, I seriously don't comprehend your morality.

[Bini]

Which is quite beside the point. If you're going to take it that literally, take Vic off the list entirely, since he cannot be compared, apparently.

All three of them are devoted to their eldest brother. Two of them have younger brothers to whom they are less devoted. Just because Vic is 3rd and not 2nd shouldn't really matter.

Well, I suppose the whole point is discussing who is the most dutiful younger brother.

Victarion was a younger brother to 2 men.

Victarion was pretty dutiful to his older brother Balon (on par with Kevan, I suppose).

Victarion is not quite so dutiful to his older brother Euron, if he thinks on working against him (of course he has very well reason to do so, but it doesn't change the fact that it's not dutiful at all).

What Stannis's killing of Renly has to do with this?

[Lord Reaver]

What Stannis's killing of Renly has to do with this?

Well, if we're not comparing them on equal grounds, then that must be factored in.

Stannis gets a pass on killing Renly, simply because he was born 2nd ? By that logic, Vic is 2x as dutiful as everyone else, since he has twice as many brothers to be dutiful to.

Even if we discount his being dutiful to Euron (which he is, he accepts him as King, and leads his fleet in the assault, it isn't until he's sent halfway around the world, he starts thinking about disobeying), he's still as good as or better than the other two.

[Pod The Impaler]

The most dutiful man of them is Stannis, obviously.

All those years of marching dutifully into Selyse's bed. Such noble sacrifice.

[Bini]

Well, if we're not comparing them on equal grounds, then that must be factored in.

Stannis gets a pass on killing Renly, simply because he was born 2nd ? By that logic, Vic is 2x as dutiful as everyone else, since he has twice as many brothers to be dutiful to.

Even if we discount his being dutiful to Euron (which he is, he accepts him as King, and leads his fleet in the assault, it isn't until he's sent halfway around the world, he starts thinking about disobeying), he's still as good as or better than the other two.

Stannis does not "get a pass on killing Renly". That situation, being Renly a younger brother to him, simply has nothing to do with his dutifulness to his older brother and is thus irrelevant to the scope of the discussion.

Likewise, if Victarion had beaten, plotted against or killed Aeron that would also have nothing to do with his dutifullness to Balon or Euron as a younger brother to them.

Fact is that now he intends to make a move against his older brother Euron, which makes his "dutifulness as a younger brother" decrease somewhat, as I see it.

[Ser Frasier of House Crane]

Stannis did the same. How the hell is gathering an army but not using it in battle worse than a murder anyway?

Stannis only raised his banners against Renly when Renly rose up against him. And while it's debatable whether or not Stannis had any knowledge of what Melisandre was going to do in regards to Renly, Renly made it pretty clear that Stannis was not going to leave the battlefield alive. That could be construed as an implicit threat of murder under the guise of war. I'm not saying Stannis's hands are clean, but Renly's hands were plenty dirty, too.

[RainGhost]

I very much disagree. Kevan did think for himself. We don't see much of him before Tywin's death, but there is e.g. his plan of securing Darry for Lancel by marrying him to Amy. True enough he agrees to most of Tywin's actions, but that seems to be because he really agrees with them not because he just says yes. And after Tywin's death we see very clearly that he has a mind of his own and doesn't agree to every of Cersei's stupid ideas.

Then again, following your older brother because he is clever and you agree with him is a very sweet duty.

I'm not a big fan of Kevan so that may cloud my judgement. You're right that Kevan could think for himself after Tywin's death when he was forced to. Tywin was a monster but Kevan doesn't seem to be that bad. However, Kevan never objected to any of the atrocities that Tywin ordered his men to do. Tyrion says that Kevan never had a thought that Tywin had not had first. Stannis is dutiful but he would still object to something he thought was wrong. So, I see Kevan as merely the weaker younger brother following the orders of his stronger older brother. That was not the case with Robert and Stannis.

[It's Not That Littlefinger]

Lord Reaver, on 03 Aug 2014 - 11:21 PM, said:

Renly. Obviously. If you're going to be counting second brothers like Euron, why ignore what Stannis did to Renly ?

well, just keeping to the topic title, stannis was loyal to robert who was his older brother. I wasn't considering the renly thing, because that wasn't about stannis being a younger brother.

[Erkan12]

Stannis could choose Aerys over Robert. It was a toss up.

[Bryanfury]

Victarion and Kevan are as dutiful as each other. They even both support their brothers spiteful and deliberately targeted rape and pillaging of smallfolk. One just personally rapes and murders people, and enjoys it too.

[The Onion Sleight]

I love to see that my thread gets so many answers, and that the answers are really, really different.

I think, really everybody so far was very often mentioned as candidate for the first place.

- Kevan is seen by many as clearly the winner, yet others say he had it way easier than the other two (and some consider him as strict follower).

- Stannis was often called the winner, but also often seen on the third place; the flight to Dragonstone when he knew about the incest is something many hold against him (and some consider him as too whiny about the things Robert did to him).

- Victarion is a special case, 'cause of his very different relationships to his two older brothers. Vic/Balon is quite the same as Kevan/Tywin, and certainly no less first place-worthy than Kev, yet with Euron he has the most terrible brother and relationship of all, and many hold the fact that he's now about to betray him against Vic (and some emphasize, it's only the kingslaying-taboo which keeps him from killing Euron).

Still, no question easy to answer (I have not really an answer for myself), especially with the different definitions of duty and loyalty to a brother, we may have.

And it's hard to say if the sort of relationship between brothers should matter or not, and if dutifulness can/should be rated affected by this.

But it's great to see the different opinions about this!

[No Song so Sweet]

Renly gathered arms against his nephew and declared war on him, not his brother.

He even expected his brother to join him, in case you had forgotten.

Stannis is the one who declared war on Renly, not the other way around.

No. He gathered an army against the Lannisters. Back then, Stannis had never expressed any interest in the Iron Throne.

No. Stannis attacked Renly, not the other way around.

If crowning oneself with no regard to superior claims is worse than a murder, then - logically - Robb was worse than Joffrey. Dude, I seriously don't comprehend your morality.

Are you both serious? Renly knew that Stannis would declare for kingship, and he declared himself first. But Stannis was interested in being king, in fact he considered himself king already. He just hadn't declared yet because he was waiting for the opportune moment where he would be most strong or he would have no other choice. Renly also knew that Stannis wouldn't come with him and wouldn't bend. He fully expected to kill him in combat. By declaring himself king before his elder brother he most definately declared war against his brother. It's not like they talked beforehand and Renly said "Hey Stannis I don't want to harm you but I am gonna declare myself king". Stannis went to Renly to parley first giving Renly a chance to stop his treason (which of course he wouldn't take and then he attacked him).

Robb was not worse than Joffrey because he had just cause (ie like Robert's Rebellion) and Joffrey was illegitimate... Renly had no cause at all except personal ambition and believing that Stannis wasn't "fit for the throne". Guess who becomes king by that logic... Renly! Oh what a coincidence!

[RainGhost]

Are you both serious? Renly knew that Stannis would declare for kingship, and he declared himself first. But Stannis was interested in being king, in fact he considered himself king already. He just hadn't declared yet because he was waiting for the opportune moment where he would be most strong or he would have no other choice. Renly also knew that Stannis wouldn't come with him and wouldn't bend. He fully expected to kill him in combat. By declaring himself king before his elder brother he most definately declared war against his brother. It's not like they talked beforehand and Renly said "Hey Stannis I don't want to harm you but I am gonna declare myself king". Stannis went to Renly to parley first giving Renly a chance to stop his treason (which of course he wouldn't take and then he attacked him).

Not true. Renly never knew about the twincest - he believed Joffrey was Robert's son, so he could not have known that Stannis would declare himself king.

[Sullen]

Are you both serious? Renly knew that Stannis would declare for kingship, and he declared himself first.

No, Renly thought that Joffrey was the lawful King, not Stannis. He was not aware of the incest in case you had forgotten.

He just hadn't declared yet because he was waiting for the opportune moment where he would be most strong or he would have no other choice.

He had not declared because he preferred skulking on Dragonstone.

Renly also knew that Stannis wouldn't come with him and wouldn't bend. He fully expected to kill him in combat.

False, he initially thought that Stannis would join his forces and support his cause. He includes Stannis and the Lords of the Narrow Sea in the lords that would soon join him when he enumerates his force to Catelyn. He is as surprised as anybody when Stannis strikes on Storm's End.

By declaring himself king before his elder brother he most definately declared war against his brother.

He declared himself King of a new dynasty, the old line of succession doesn't matter, as it didn't with Robert. Besides, Stannis only comes after Tommen and possibly Myrcella. He declared war against Joffrey, not Stannis.

Stannis went to Renly to parley first giving Renly a chance to stop his treason (which of course he wouldn't take and then he attacked him).

You're wrong on that again, Stannis attacked considerably before the parley, and Renly had no reason to believe what seemed like self-serving lies. Both him and Stannis were committing treason against the lawful ruler of the Seven Kingdoms.

Robb was not worse than Joffrey because he had just cause (ie like Robert's Rebellion) and Joffrey was illegitimate... Renly had no cause at all except personal ambition and believing that Stannis wasn't "fit for the throne". Guess who becomes king by that logic... Renly! Oh what a coincidence!

So Renly protecting himself and avenging his brother's murder is not a just cause? You also need to read the books again if you think Robb rebelled because Joff was a bastard born of incest, he even points out that neither Stannis nor Renly are the rightful rulers of the Seven Kingdoms, Joffrey and Tommen after him are.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Are you both serious?

Right back at ya.

Renly knew that Stannis would declare for kingship, and he declared himself first. But Stannis was interested in being king, in fact he considered himself king already.

Yeah... alas, Renly wasn't privy to Stannis' thoughts on this issue. Without the knowledge of the twincest (and Stannis personally ensured that nobody had the knowledge) it was impossible to figure out. What his motivation would be? "Everybody's rebelling against Robert's rightful heir Joffrey, so I'm gonna join the party and declare against Joffrey and all the rebel factions already on the board"? To quote a fellow poster, "are you serious"?

[No Song so Sweet]

That's not how I see it but I get how a person favorable to Renly may see things your way. If you see things through the POV of Stannis though he was definitely not the one who betrayed and I think he is clearly in the right.

There is a bad king on the throne, Joffrey. Renly just acts like a turd and leaves Stannis out of everything without even sending him a raven and then actually expects Stannis to serve him... He knows or should know that is not going to happen. Stannis only served Robert in the rebellion because it was his duty as a younger brother, and he still had doubts because it wasnt rightful. Renly should also know that.

So Renly does betray Stannis. He just expects that Stannis won't attack him because he is strong, but he is still the one who provoked. And even if he didn't, he should back down when his brother claimed and he should take Stannis' offer. Stannis did make an offer before killing him, and it was a good one. Sure some of the lords Renly had gathered would go with the Lannisters and they would never serve Stannis, but that would be the right thing to do for Renly.

Stannis knew of the incest with evidence so he was certainly not commiting treason. Renly may have seen it that way though. I know that both Renly and Robb didn't know of the incest when they started the war. When Stannis declared though, they read of it, and may have chosen not to believe it.