(f)Aegon is Leia

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I always figured that because of the value placed on an intact maidenhead, especially for women of noble birth, "dishonoring" could also including deflowering a woman out of wedlock (even if consensual). Ned tells Robert that he dishonored himself and Catelyn with "Wylla," so I don't think it's always about rape. Or Barry might have had the Robert/Lyanna syndrome, where he'd only think of it as rape to preserve his image of her. Certainly far too many unknowns to be certain one way or the other though.

The Dany stuff just seems really weird, but I think it's born of people wanting the dragon riders to all be siblings. Maybe Dany takes 2 husbands (like Jorah wanted), both of whom are really her brothers!

Also just remembered; Alayaya is Lyanna's daughter.

Then it would be Ashara who dishonored herself.

Maybe you will be interesting reading this if you haven't seen it.

Robb is Lyanna's son. She (Lyanna) warged Ned and Robb is her son.

[Chebyshov]

Then it would be Ashara who dishonored herself.

Maybe you will be interesting reading this if you haven't seen it.

I agree about Ashara (though given Dornish attitudes towards sex, she might not have felt that way), but Barristan likely had a romantic view of her and laid blame at the guy's feet instead. Either way, I'm not sure Brandon having sex with her vs. anyone else matters that much to the story (unless the baby wasn't stillborn). Ned had his reasons for trusting Ashara as a person, or at least valuing her enough to return Dawn, but the evidence for leaving a baby at her doorstep is quite lacking (plus the possibility of her being SL is slim). That's why this theory stays with the rest of the cracked pottery.

I'm glad you pointed out that wording of Selmy's though; I've been conflating those two sentences about "the man who dishonored her" and "looked to me instead of Stark" in my mind without realizing it. I just can't make heads or tails of Ashara, and I can't help but think the Daynes are going to be important in the long run.

I tried wading into that R+L=D thread, but got mired in RR timeline logistics sadly. I love how so much is contingent on Ned baby-stealing and a 10-year old Viserys having the foresight to agree to pretend a random baby is his sister so that he may sell her into a political marriage later on.

Robb is Lyanna's son. She (Lyanna) warged Ned and Robb is her son.

Oh good! That means Robb and Jeyne were siblings when they married!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

snip

My point is that there is no clue that shows us that Brandon was with Lyanna. The fact that he liked women doesn't mean that he f*cked any woman he saw that is some peoples' fanfiction not what we know from the text. Anyway, Barry for me is one of the most unreliable narrators, he is up there with Cersei. I believe that Ashara was with one of the Starks but not Brandon and that her daughter is alive.

Oh good! That means Robb and Jeyne were siblings when they married!

You know those crazy Targs, incest is in their blood.

[Rorey Targaryen]

Who's Han Solo then? Arianne?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Who's Han Solo then? Arianne?

Good possibility there. Illyrio must be Jabba. JonCon is Senator Organa.

Sam has to be C-3PO. He's too timid to be R2 (that might be Val).

Thanks to this thread I'm picturing Aegon with his hair in those braid buns.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Who's Han Solo then? Arianne?

Daario, obviously. Dany will finally get super fat and he will betray her and seduce fAegon. Then Dany will put fAegon in chains and a golden dress/bikini.

Oh boy, D&D will love this stuff.

[Chebyshov]

Who's Han Solo then? Arianne?

Who would be her Chewie? Hotah?

[Isobel Harper]

I'm not sure how, but I've only recently discovered this theory. I'm surprised at not having discovered it earlier. It verges on the border of true crackpot, but either way, I can't help but love it. There are a few posters I'd wish to reply to, but I figure I'll get to my point more quickly by simply adding some of my own points to the discussion.

Please note that the premise of this theory is that Young Griff is not Aegon, son of Elia, but a different boy altogether - Lyanna's son. I refer to this boy as Young Griff throughout this post to avoid any confusion.

So we have this rough timeline:
Tower of Joy > Young Griff with Ashara > ??? > Young Griff with Illyrio/Varys/JonCon.

First, let's examine the mystery of Septa Lemore's identity. We get the sense that there is more to Lemore than meets the eye from Tyrion.

Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore though... Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I'd judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa? (ADwD, Tyrion VI)

In addition to Tyrion's doubt, Connington refers to Lemore as Lady Lemore, but never Septa Lemore, in both of his ADwD POVs. I suspect that she's somehow connected to the Daynes or the Martells. I propose that Lemore is Lemore. Lemore Dayne, perhaps? If so, there is a possible Sarella=Alleras like name riddle to Lemore's identity: Septa Mordane -> (Septa) Lemore Dayne. Lemore seems to be older than Ashara would be - Ashara's aunt or cousin? If my proposition is incorrect, an additional possibility is that Lemore is Mellario of Norvos, Doran's wife. According to Arianne, Mellario's reason for leaving Dorne was her anger over Doran giving Quentyn over to the Yronwoods to foster, which is peculiar given that she left behind an infant Trystane in doing so. Mellario's age would also fit Lemore's description of "past forty." hero figure in Rhoynar legend of the last Long Night.)

Edit: Edited out quote boxes and corrected spelling and grammar errors.

[Lady Beefheart]

This is interesting and, while I don't see any evidence for it, it's definitely a theory I don't mind.

It does make me wonder if any of the big players know about R+L=J, like Varys or Littlefinger. Surely BR knows. He probably knows what the high septon's birthday is and what Howland Reed ate for dinner last night.

On a semi-related note, seeing "Hey, that would be cool" theories like this makes me want to come up with an implausible crackpot theory just based on how many people it would make upset. I'm sure that's been done before, but I still find the idea amusing.

[kephv]

I agree, TLRG. I'm assuming the 'someone else' Ned sent him with would've had to have been Ashara -- and another important reason why he had to take Dawn back to Starfall -- and then she fakes her death and ends up as Septa Lemore. So Ashara takes Aegon, which may actually be his real name, but the question is whether or not she told anyone who's child he really is. As far as Varys is concerned, it would have been safer to tell him that the child was hers (I'm assuming she got into contact with him sometime after the fact, as he can't know everything). Daynes have the same coloring so it wouldn't be far fetched.

[AllOfTheHours]

I really like this theory and would love if it were true. The Song of ice and fire being twins brought up as Stark and Targaryen sounds quite brilliant.

And yeah, SL's eyes never being mentioned is inconsistent with the way Martin writes and that's the biggest problem with the SL=AD theory for me.

"(f)Aegon is Leia" is my absolute favorite crackpot theory. :)

[TyshaLives]

The main clincher of R+L=J is "Promise me, Ned"

Obviously Lyanna wouldn't ask Ned to protect only one child, so I don't see him taking one and leaving one (only because of the Targ features). If there is another kid, he would have been sent somewhere safe by Ned, not left for Varys (since there's nothing to show that Ned gave fAegon to Varys or that he even trusted Varys. If they had done something like this, they would definitely have a closer relationship.)

[YoungGriff89]

There's always the much more absurd explanation: Jon Snow's Valyrian looking twin exists somewhere in the world being looked after by Ashara Dayne and (F)Aegon is a plot cooked up to capitalize on this knowledge that Varys and Illyrio obtained somehow. All they'd really need is a spy in Starfall. They know Ashara will never come forward because it will put the real twin and herself in danger, so they use a doppleganger who could pass for Targaryen based on the physical features and whatever story they have to to sound convincing to the right people. Maybe post rebellion when there was still unrest in various parts of the kingdom, Rhaeger's bastard with Lyanna probably had a good chance at rallying support but didn't after a short period of time so they cook up a story about smuggling the real Aegon out, take their doppleganger and teach him to be a good ruler who has a claim thanks to a fake name, there you go.

[Isobel Harper]

Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

I recently reread a scene of one of Jon's wolf dreams, and an idea came to me. If my idea is correct, Aegon would be a son of Rhaegar, although theories on whether he's Elia's son or Lyanna's son could both apply.

What if this "one" Jon could no longer sense is Aegon? Ghost senses the Starks and their wolves in his dream; he senses Shaggydog, Nymeria, and Summer. Subconsciously, he knows or senses that there is yet another out there, one he can't detect. Jon doesn't realize it yet, but he has a brother out there that he has not met.

[Frey family reunion]

I'm more inclined to believe that Meera Reed is Jon's twin than Aegon.

From aGoT - Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

From aCoK - Though near Robb’s age, she was slim as a boy, with long brown hair knotted behind her head and only the barest suggestion of breasts. A woven net hung from one slim hip, a long bronze knife from the other. Both Reeds were slight of build, slender as swords and scarcely taller than Bran himself.

No mention of her eyes up till then, can't remember if there is one later in the books.

I agree, the problem that many people have with this theory is that it means that Rhaegar isn't Jon's dad but Howland is. That's why Meera's green eye color isn't an issue, she takes after pop and Jon takes after mom.

When Meera arrives at Winterfell she is dressed in bronze scale but she is carrying an Iron greathelm:

Though near Robb's age, she was slim as a boy, with long brown hair knotted behind her head and only the barest suggestion of breasts. A woven net hung from one slim hip, a long bronze knife from the other; under her arm she carried an old iron greathelm spotted with rust; a frog spear and round leathern shield were strapped to her back.

Now which of these things don't belong? The iron greathelm is obviously not something that you would expect to see being carried by a crannog girl. After the fall of Winterfell she takes it with her when she, Jojen, Bran and Hodor are on the run.

Jojen sent Hodor out for wood and built them a small fire while Bran and Meera were cleaning fish and frogs. They used Meera's helm for a cooking pot, chopping up the catch into little cubes and tossing in some water and some wild onions Hodor had found to make a froggy stew.

So why would Meera have an iron helm? Well let's go back to the tale of the Knight of the Laughing tree:

the Knight of the Laughing tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach you squire honor, that shall be ransom enough.'...

The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree.

So, let's say that the greathelm does belong to the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and let us assume that the knight was indeed Lyanna, how does Meera end up with the helm? It follows that the person who found and unmasked the KOTLT was Howland Reed.

So why does Meera keep the helm and bring it to Winterfell? She kept it because it is an heirloom from her mother which is also why she brings it to Winterfell.

Finally Meera and Jon come oh so close to actually meeting. It occurs in two chapters a Bran chapter, and a Jon chapter. Meera, Bran, Jojen and Hodor are hiding out in the Queen's Crown tower. Jon and the wildlings arrive at the tower as well, Jon even taking Ygritte out to the shore of the lake which surrounds the tower. Thus Jon is standing across the lake from his twin. The Bran chapter starts with this line:

The tower stood upon an island, its twin reflected on the still blue waters.

Thus Meera is in the tower and her twin is across the lake on the shore.

[Connartist92]

^ "Yea because nobodys ever lied about their age or identity" -@TheHouseHb

Well you clearly just don't understand the overall intricacies of the situation, regarding how Aegon Targaryen already being older than 2 years old when Jon and his theoretical and fictitious twin were born would ruin the whole façade of passing him off to Jon Connington as Rhaegars son.

That Aegon DID die in KL. Head bashed in and everything. This is the theory that Jon (son of R+L) had a TWIN who was also named Aegon (possibly later after the KL Aegon died). Also, Tyrion says in one of his ADWD chapters that Young Griff/fAegon looks younger than he says he is

[Buried Treasure]

Yeahs Tyrion sucks at guessing ages. Which isn't a knock against him, as guessing the ages of teenagers on first meeting is hard as they grow at different rates and how mature they act has a big weight on how they carry themselves and look; YG was still sheltered by the adults around him so was still a boy rather than an adult himself. Besides, once Tyrion had known YG a while longer he accepted him as either Aegon Targaryen or a passable fake, so Tyrion can't have been too committed to his initial age estimate.

On the other hand, telling apart a six year old (the age Jon C expected Aegon to be when he received him) and a four year old (as this theory seems to suggest) is much easier. Language Language, memory, size, strength, comparisons with peers are all indicators (remember, it would not just require tricking Jon, but fooling YG to grow up thinking he is two years older than he actually is). Frankly I rate Varys and Illyrio as being to competent at scheming to even try and use an imposter more than a few months the wrong age.

[Isobel Harper]

KL-Aegon was 1-2 years older than Jon Snow (and possibly Young Griff). It wouldn't be that difficult to pass off a child 1-2 years older than it is. Sometimes a child is small for his age, making it possible that a 6 year-old could appear 4-5 years old. Sometimes a child is big and mature for his age, making him appear (say) 1-2 years older than he is. My neice is very precocious and tall for her age. She does seem a bit older than she really is, more so when she was around 3-7.

However, I think Connington is aware that Young Griff is Lyanna's son, if the theory is correct.

[Saint Saga]

Meera is Leia, same age as Jon, similar look, Luke stayed with his uncle Owen/Ned , Leia with Bail Organa/Howland Reed . Its known.

[Isobel Harper]

Meera is Leia, same age as Jon, similar look, Luke stayed with his uncle Owen/Ned , Leia with Bail Organa/Howland Reed . Its known.

But who did Meera get her green eyes from? If Lyanna had green eyes, who did Jon get his gray eyes from? And if Lyanna had gray eyes, again, who did Meera get her green eyes from?