So how many people think Dany is the younger more beautiful queen?

[tze]

I'm not quite sure how anyone could possibly say Dany is a choice for this prophecy. This prophecy does not say "Queen you shall be, until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down, except not really, because you'll have already been cast down long beforehand, and for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with this person, and take all that you hold dear, except not really, because you'll have already lost everything you hold dear by the time this person show up, and for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with this person, so this person won't actually be able to take anything from you."

I think people are getting way too caught up in certain details of this prophecy, and haven't been connecting them to the actual central question of this prophecy. Guys, the key questions here aren't "who is younger and more beautiful than Cersei?" or "who could be a queen figure?" There are multiple characters who can fulfill those criteria, (noting of course that the "queen" critierium isn't actually specified in the prophecy), characters who can fulfill those criteria without having anything whatsoever to do with Cersei. The key question is, "Who among those younger and more beautiful people is responsible for casting Cersei down and taking all that she holds dear?" Dany makes about as much sense there as Val, which is to say, none at all. It doesn't matter, per se, if someone is younger and more beautiful than Cersei. It also doesn't matter if someone intends on being a Queen of Westeros. (Noting, of course, that the prophecy does not specify a queen.) What matters---the key criteria that people seem to be forgetting---is this person's role in Cersei's downfall.

As of ADWD, Cersei's already lost her power, her position, her dignity, her reputation, her beauty, and her pride. And all for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with Dany. She's lost the protection and support of her family, for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with Dany. One of her children is dead, for reasons that had nothing to do with Dany. Her other children are now in danger from Aegon/Connington, not Dany. Thanks to her misrule in King's Landing and the Walk of Shame, she has zero chance of ever retaking her position in King's Landing, let alone actually being able to rule the Westerlands as Lady of Casterly Rock---and again, for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with Dany. By the time Dany finally lands, what is Cersei even going to have left for Dany to take? (Will Cersei even still be alive by the time Dany finally lands in Westeros??)

Cersei is living her downfall right now. We are seeing her be cast down, and we are seeing her lose all that she holds dear, right now. This is not a question of "Who will cast Cersei down in the future?", because Cersei's downfall is not coming in the future. We're seeing it happen right now. Dany cannot be the person to cast Cersei down and take all that she holds dear, because Dany is not the person doing any of those things. (Speculating about who will cause Cersei's downfall would be like arguing about who we think will end up stabbing Jon at Castle Black.)

Dany is going to take away cersei's kingdom, the iron throne and I think cersei holds that dear above anything else

No, Dany is not going to take away Cersei's kingdom. Because Cersei has already lost her kingdom! Should Dany end up taking the Iron Throne, she won't be taking it from Cersei, because Cersei, having already lost it, will not be holding it when Dany finally arrives.This is my whole point: Dany can't be the person taking things from Cersei because we see Cersei lose everything long before Dany even arrives. Dany cannot be the person to fulfill this prophecy. All of these "Cersei thinks it's Margaery, but that's a red herring, and it'll really be Dany" and "Cersei was ignoring the threat posed by the Targs in AFFC, so Dany will end up taking her down" comments being made here are ignoring the incontrovertible truth that Cersei has already lost her throne and her power and been forced to walk naked through the streets of the capitol, so the idea that Dany will cast her down and take all that she holds dear ignores what we've already seen actually happen to Cersei in the text. .

[larastone]

Aegon is already in Westeros. Dany is still in Essos, not really even near civilization. Aegon has a huge head start and he isn't going to sit on his ass waiting for Dany to get there. Varys killed Pycelle and Kevan and there's a very good theory that the Faith will turn from the Lannister-Tyrell bloc to support Aegon instead.

GRRM saying there'd be a second Dance suggests that Dany and Aegon will be fighting each other. If they're fighting each other, that suggests that the other rivals, namely Cersei's faction, have been dealt with. Aegon is already in Westeros, gaining ground and support, while Dany is out in the middle of the Dothraki Sea. So tell me, which one of them is likelier to be the one to sweep out the Lannisters?

Dany can't take all that Cersei holds dear if Aegon has gotten there early and beat her to the punch. I'm also going to venture to guess that the possibility that Aegon would be the one to topple the Lannisters in King's Landing hadn't actually occurred to you, seeing as I hadn't seen it acknowledged as a possibility before I brought it up.

Aegon to topple the lannisters in KL has 100% occurred to me, but I still think the timing could work out for dany to be the YMBQ because aegon hasn't reached KL yet and who knows how long it will take for him to actually get there, I expect GRRM to throw plenty of twists.

And as I've said before, I'm only thinking of endgames and not details because details are much harder to predict and I expect GRRM to make the details with plenty of twists.

Let's just agree to disagree on this because I don't think either of us are going to convince each other of our opinions.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Aegon to topple the lannisters in KL has 100% occurred to me, but I still think the timing could work out for dany to be the YMBQ because aegon hasn't reached KL yet and who knows how long it will take for him to actually get there, I expect GRRM to throw plenty of twists.

Call me crazy, but I think Aegon will have an easier and quicker time getting to King's Landing from Storm's End than Dany getting to King's Landing from the middle of bumfuck nowhere in the Dothraki Sea.

You're trying to shoehorn the endgame to match a conclusion you've already reached, that Dany fulfills this portion of the prophecy. That's all.

Also Tze pretty much destroyed your argument. There's really nothing left to say anyway.

[Mithras]

Actually tze, Cersei did not lose everything yet. She has lost much but the most important thing for her is power (to be the ruling queen), something Varys tries to give her by eliminating Kevan and Pycelle and according to the Mercy chapter,

Cersei returns to power.

Therefore, she still has important things to lose.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Actually tze, Cersei did not lose everything yet. She has lost much but the most important thing for her is power (to be the ruling queen), something Varys tries to give her by eliminating Kevan and Pycelle and according to the Mercy chapter,

Cersei returns to power.

Therefore, she still has important things to lose.

Agreed. She still has Tommen on the throne and that will be the last thing for her to lose: Tommen. Which will more than likely be by her own hand as well. She really is the younger more beautiful one. I also agree with Apple Martini, it is very likley that Aegon will get to the King's Landing first which might be the very thing that forces Cersei's hand.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Actually tze, Cersei did not lose everything yet. She has lost much but the most important thing for her is power (to be the ruling queen), something Varys tries to give her by eliminating Kevan and Pycelle and according to the Mercy chapter,

Cersei returns to power.

Therefore, she still has important things to lose.

Perhaps, but Varys does that because it will make it easier for Aegon. Varys anticipates Aegon arriving shortly and he's greasing the wheels for that to happen with minimal fuss. Which, again, shows that Cersei will probably be taken out (at least out of power, if she's actually still in power) by Aegon's faction before Dany can get there to do it. So the idea that Dany is the candidate because she's going to be the one to show up and push Cersei aside doesn't make much sense.

The idea that Cersei is in the midst of her downfall, despite some perceived second winds (e.g. maybe getting power back momentarily after Kevan dies) is, I think, perfectly sound.

[tze]

Actually tze, Cersei did not lose everything yet. She has lost much but the most important thing for her is power (to be the ruling queen), something Varys tries to give her by eliminating Kevan and Pycelle and according to the Mercy chapter,

No, Varys is not trying to give Cersei power by killing Kevan and Pycelle. Killing Pycelle does not affect Cersei's power status, and killing Kevan does not make Cersei back into the Regent. Kevan became Regent in Cersei's place because the Small Council handed him the job. The current Small Council is filled with Tyrell adherents, (and the new Grand Maester is pretty much guaranteed to be a Tyrell), and the Hand is Mace Tyrell. Cersei has no way to regain her status of Queen Regent. The murders of Kevan and Pycelle do not give Cersei power. Even if she wins her trial, she has no route to power.

And the Mercy chapter does not say that Cersei returns to power.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

No, Dany is not going to take away Cersei's kingdom. Because Cersei has already lost her kingdom! Should Dany end up taking the Iron Throne, she won't be taking it from Cersei, because Cersei, having already lost it, will not be holding it when Dany finally arrives.This is my whole point: Dany can't be the person taking things from Cersei because we see Cersei lose everything long before Dany even arrives. Dany cannot be the person to fulfill this prophecy. All of these "Cersei thinks it's Margaery, but that's a red herring, and it'll really be Dany" and "Cersei was ignoring the threat posed by the Targs in AFFC, so Dany will end up taking her down" comments being made here are ignoring the incontrovertible truth that Cersei has already lost her throne and her power and been forced to walk naked through the streets of the capitol, so the idea that Dany will cast her down and take all that she holds dear ignores what we've already seen actually happen to Cersei in the text. .

I get what you're saying, but at the end, Margaery isn't actually doing anything. Which got me thinking.

Considering my limitations with the language, according to google, "cast down" means something like make one feel less or lower. Just checked in Spanish, it says "to take you down", which indicates a more "active" position, like if the aforementioned Queen will actively try to cast down Cersei. So, as I see it, "cast you down" doesn't imply an action directed towards Cersei, but simply, an action happening that Cersei won't like. Again, I could be wrong.

With that in mind, Maggy's prophecy has a different meaning:

"Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear".

Cersei is taking the prophecy as if a new Queen (or new woman), younger and beautiful will be working against her, which Margaery is not really doing. At least, she holds nothing personally against Cersei. What Margaery is doing is a natural event of things: Cersei was meant to be Queen UNTIL his son was King and had a wife, which indeed happened too and was going to happen even if she had married Rhaegar and had his children. The fact she's younger and more beautiful is also a consequence of life, for instance, Mrs. Smith being the ONE mrs. Smith until the younger Mr Smith gets married and a new Mrs. Smith, younger and beautiful, arrives.

So, Maggy's prophecy pretty much only says "Queen you shall be, until your son marries and there is a new Queen, which obviously will be younger, and more beautiful, and your time as Queen will end".

So, yeah. I think it's Margaery.

(I like the idea of her being also Lyanna, but this makes sense)

[Septa Mordane]

LOL @ people who say Cersei has already lost everything. Her downfall has only just begun.

[Mithras]

Apple Martini, fAegon does not have the power to take KL for the time being

even after taking Storm's End and there is a Tyrell host coming to him. Assuming that Mace gets killed and Tarly bends knee to him, he will still not have the Fleet to take KL. To do that, he needs Hightowers and Redwynes. By the time he takes their support, I think Dany will come and they will both involved in the Second Dance. I think both fAegon and Dany will not want to take KL before defeating their opponent decisively.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Apple Martini, fAegon does not have the power to take KL for the time being

even after taking Storm's End and there is a Tyrell host coming to him. Assuming that Mace was killed and Tarly bends knee to him, he will still not have the Fleet to take KL. To do that, he needs Hightowers and Redwynes. By the time he takes their support, I think Dany will come and they will both involved in the Second Dance. I think both fAegon and Dany will not want to take KL before defeating their opponent decisively.

He doesn't need to take it back immediately, he just needs to beat Dany to the punch. Are you going to argue that that isn't the most plausible outcome?

LOL @ people who say Cersei has already lost everything. Her downfall has only just begun.

Yes, it's begun. And Dany has had fuck all to do with it.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

No, Varys is not trying to give Cersei power by killing Kevan and Pycelle. Killing Pycelle does not affect Cersei's power status, and killing Kevan does not make Cersei back into the Regent. Kevan became Regent in Cersei's place because the Small Council handed him the job. The current Small Council is filled with Tyrell adherents, (and the new Grand Maester is pretty much guaranteed to be a Tyrell), and the Hand is Mace Tyrell. Cersei has no way to regain her status of Queen Regent. The murders of Kevan and Pycelle do not give Cersei power. Even if she wins her trial, she has no route to power.

And the Mercy chapter does not say that Cersei returns to power.

I do think Varys is restoring Cersei's power by allowing her to influence Tommen by removing Kevan. Had Kevan not died, Cersei would have been sent to Casterly Rock so Varys does restore her to power, at least the type of power she had before. She will make a few more blunders before things crash completely but I agree, the crash has already begun and her complete ruin is eminent by her own doing and her decline is not about to begin by the arrival of Dany.

[larastone]

Call me crazy, but I think Aegon will have an easier and quicker time getting to King's Landing from Storm's End than Dany getting to King's Landing from the middle of bumfuck nowhere in the Dothraki Sea.

You're trying to shoehorn the endgame to match a conclusion you've already reached, that Dany fulfills this portion of the prophecy. That's all.

Also Tze pretty much destroyed your argument. There's really nothing left to say anyway.

I'm not trying to shoehorn anything lol. I'm only saying that I have a theory of an endgame based on some of the themes of the text so far (NOTE: themes NOT timing). My main belief for why Dany is the YMBQ is because I just think she has a greater chance than any of the other candidates: she is queen, she is younger, she is more beautiful. and she's a queen in her own right and there are deliberate parallels between. Dany and Cersei in AFFC/ADWD. none of the other candidates fit all these categories.

I just prefer coming up with theories based on the themes rather than the timing, thats why I'm not worried about Aegon. And nobody can destroy my argument because nobody knows what will happen yet. Unless Tze is GRRM, he/she has not destroyed any argument rme.

[Mithras]

The idea that Cersei is in the midst of her downfall, despite some perceived second winds (e.g. maybe getting power back momentarily after Kevan dies) is, I think, perfectly sound.

That was my suggestion as well. Varys was restoring her because she was doing a fine job in alienating the Tyrells and destroying their alliance. Varys can always remove Cersei by his machinations and revealing her "dirty secrets". Thus, I think Cersei will get her second time in ruling position but because of the Second Dance, she will keep her position in KL longer than anticipated.

He doesn't need to take it back immediately, he just needs to beat Dany to the punch. Are you going to argue that that isn't the most plausible outcome?

One thing we learn from tPatQ is that taking KL is not always a bright idea, especially before defeating the opponent completely. Just ask Rhaenyra. I think Tyrion will oppose it. Dany will be based in Harrenhal and Oldtown will be fAegon's base.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I'm not trying to shoehorn anything lol. I'm only saying that I have a theory of an endgame based on some of the themes of the text so far (NOTE: themes NOT timing). My main belief for why Dany is the YMBQ is because I just think she has a greater chance than any of the other candidates: she is queen, she is younger, she is more beautiful. and she's a queen in her own right and there are deliberate parallels between. Dany and Cersei in AFFC/ADWD. none of the other candidates fit all these categories.

I just prefer coming up with theories based on the themes rather than the timing, thats why I'm not worried about Aegon. And nobody can destroy my argument because nobody knows what will happen yet. Unless Tze is GRRM, he/she has not destroyed any argument rme.

But there's no theme in saying she's a queen and younger and more beautiful. What's the theme of that?

ETA:

ah. you explained.

[larastone]

But there's no theme in saying she's a queen and younger and more beautiful. What's the theme of that?

the theme is that "cersei is her own worst enemy", thats why I believe that cersei and the YMBQ don't need to have personal history, and Cersei hasn't lost everything yet either. the fact that dany fits all the criteria is just the icing on the cake.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not trying to shoehorn anything lol. I'm only saying that I have a theory of an endgame based on some of the themes of the text so far (NOTE: themes NOT timing). My main belief for why Dany is the YMBQ is because I just think she has a greater chance than any of the other candidates: she is queen, she is younger, she is more beautiful. and she's a queen in her own right and there are deliberate parallels between. Dany and Cersei in AFFC/ADWD. none of the other candidates fit all these categories.

I just prefer coming up with theories based on the themes rather than the timing, thats why I'm not worried about Aegon. And nobody can destroy my argument because nobody knows what will happen yet. Unless Tze is GRRM, he/she has not destroyed any argument rme.

You're arguing plot, not themes. Dany having the best chance because she's a queen is based on plotting (even though, again, the prophecy does not specify that it's a queen). Her being younger and more beautiful is not thematic in any real way.

Dany and Cersei may be set up to have parallels, but that's as much to do with ruling style as anything and doesn't necessarily suggest that Dany has a role in Cersei's downfall.

the theme is that "cersei is her own worst enemy", thats why I believe that cersei and the YMBQ don't need to have personal history, and Cersei hasn't lost everything yet either. the fact that dany fits all the criteria is just the icing on the cake.

OK, but again, this doesn't say ANYTHING about why this figure has to be Dany. Cersei is still her own worst enemy no matter who fulfills the prophecy. It does not immediately follow that the figure is Dany because Cersei is her own worst enemy.

[Mithras]

No, Varys is not trying to give Cersei power by killing Kevan and Pycelle. Killing Pycelle does not affect Cersei's power status, and killing Kevan does not make Cersei back into the Regent. Kevan became Regent in Cersei's place because the Small Council handed him the job. The current Small Council is filled with Tyrell adherents, (and the new Grand Maester is pretty much guaranteed to be a Tyrell), and the Hand is Mace Tyrell. Cersei has no way to regain her status of Queen Regent. The murders of Kevan and Pycelle do not give Cersei power. Even if she wins her trial, she has no route to power.

And the Mercy chapter does not say that Cersei returns to power.

The power resides with the monarch. That is what Renly told to Ned when he urged him to take Cersei's kids. That was also what Bloodraven did while he was the Hand. No one saw King Aerys without his leave and his Raven's Teeth were guarding the RK. Cersei is sharper and more self-controlling after the Walk. She always had a certain cunning. She is given permission to see Tommen and it is mentioned that Tommen signs every document that was brought before him. So, I can see Cersei acting fast and producing a royal decree to give the regency back to her and having Tommen sign it.

The Mercy chapter does not specifically mention Cersei but Margaery does not sound right in that context.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

the theme is that "cersei is her own worst enemy", thats why I believe that cersei and the YMBQ don't need to have personal history, and Cersei hasn't lost everything yet either. the fact that dany fits all the criteria is just the icing on the cake.

If Cersei is her own worst enemy, then the person who deals the final blow is irrelevant. It's all about Cersei and her own actions.

[Bael's Bastard]

I thought it was Renly? Threat averted.