[WoIaF Spoilers] Oily Stone: Yeen, Asshai, The Wall, 5 Forts, Hinges of the World

[complexphoenix]

Valyrian roads, the Black Walls of Volantis, and the Inner Walls of Tyrosh are explicitly said to be made of dragonstone. Please note: nowhere does it say that that dragons are required to make dragonstone. The Valyrians had the magical ability to shape hot stone as part of a building process. (Maester Cressen stated this in the aCoK prologue.) I personally have trouble picturing a Valyrian Dragonlord and his fearsome dragon working on a road crew. What would a Dragonlord have to do back in Valyria to get put on the s**t list for that job?

Construction work isn't necessarily ignominious. If you're building something great and wondrous, something you can be proud of, it can be a source of bragging rights, even make you a legend, like Brandon the Builder.

If the involvement of a dragonrider is necessary to produce a superior road, you'd think the dragonriders working on such projects would get plenty of respect.

[Sunstar]

Long time lurker first theory! tiny bit crackpot

So remember these guys here http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Firewyrm ? the "dragons without wings" snake like fire creatures that "can bore through rock, soil, and stone"

and then we have this

It is believed that the Lorathi isles were home to a mysterious race of men that vanished without leaving any trace of themselves - except for the mazes they built and their bones. This race is called 'mazemakers' in the book.

The complex maze like structures they built were made from blocks of hewn stone. Some of these mazes extended to four levels below the ground, with some passages descending five hundred feet. No one understands the purpose of these mysterious structures.

What if infact the maze did serve a purpose and they were passageways created by "warged" firewyrms!? (and this is where it gets cracpot lol) to access pockets of "black stone" and the "huge bones" wee see are infact early giants being forced to mine for the black stone?

Come on guys asshai is like the largest city on planetos built entirely of this substance where the hell did they get it from? how they exported it all that distance im not sure and could go even more crackpot.

So what do you guys think about the warged firewyrm idea ?

[Hrafntýr]

Welcome to the boards, Sunstar! I hope you have fun here.

The firewyrm theory is one that I've long been partial to. I feel that control over firewyrms is how the Children enacted the Hammer, and that it's probably how Hardhome and maybe even the Doom occurred (or given the new tidbits about the Valyrians, perhaps Valyrian control over firewyrms was disrupted in the case of the Doom).

Though there is some sort of fire/water mystery to sort out here. While I understand the mechanics of how manipulating volcanic forces can produce tidal waves, floods etc., it seems that with the exception of Yeen, all the cases of this "strange stone" are near water. Why should that be?

[aryagonnakill#2]

I'd be interested to know just how big the skeletons of the mazemakers are. We are told they are bigger than humans but smaller than giants. The people of Leng come to mind, supposedly extremely tall with the golden eyes of cotf.

[Ser Skwisgaar]

Yes but from the perspective of the stone appearing "oily" i had also considered that this might be a material that is filled with hydrocarbons, or basicly fuel within the stone, like one would have in shale oil even if that would make rather poor building material. The idea would be that the thing can be set on fire, to create a huge fire, might have advantages say in keeping away others, producing light in the darkness...

So if we have castles or structures built with stone that could be ignited...

Does this equal "Waking the Stone Dragon"?

[Ser Lepus]

So what do you guys think about the warged firewyrm idea ?

Mmmm...firewyrms seem so magical as dragons, and I think it was said somewhere that warging a being so magical as a dragon would be a challenge for almost all skinchangers.

A wyvern, on the other hand, seems slightly more "natural", so maybe it could be warged. Krakens, manticores and basilisks are probably just animals and could be warged as normal.

[cgf]

Welcome to the boards, Sunstar! I hope you have fun here.

The firewyrm theory is one that I've long been partial to. I feel that control over firewyrms is how the Children enacted the Hammer, and that it's probably how Hardhome and maybe even the Doom occurred (or given the new tidbits about the Valyrians, perhaps Valyrian control over firewyrms was disrupted in the case of the Doom).

Though there is some sort of fire/water mystery to sort out here. While I understand the mechanics of how manipulating volcanic forces can produce tidal waves, floods etc., it seems that with the exception of Yeen, all the cases of this "strange stone" are near water. Why should that be?

That gets at why I find the legend of the grey king bringing fire from beneath the sea is so curious.

[Ser Skwisgaar]

Huh... I've been re-reading the "Beyond The Bones" section... and somethign pops up that I don't think has ever really been discussed before. In the Yi Ti/Eastern version of The Long Night, it's said that it basically happened to punish the realms of men for their Wickedness. This isn't something that's usually associated with the WW.

[Hrafntýr]

Huh... I've been re-reading the "Beyond The Bones" section... and somethign pops up that I don't think has ever really been discussed before. In the Yi Ti/Eastern version of The Long Night, it's said that it basically happened to punish the realms of men for their Wickedness. This isn't something that's usually associated with the WW.

You might be interested in the thread The Curious Tale of Hyrkoon the Hero, especially the discussion that picks up around here, which engages this more politico-religious interpretation in relation to other Long Nightish mythologies (though there's conversation of the topic scattered throughout the thread).

[RumHam]

I think it was said somewhere that warging a being so magical like a dragon would be a challenge for almost all skinchangers.

I'm curious to know if this was actually said somewhere. I know people have speculated on here that you might need dragonblood to be able to warg them (like Jon.) I was under the impression the idea of skinchanging a dragon (or similar creature) does not come up in the books.

[aryagonnakill#2]

^ I don't think it was brought up in the books either. Varamyr says the larger an animal the harder it is and dragons are certainly large but Varamyr never mentions magical animals.

1 thing I did find interesting in the world book tho was the mention of Brandon the Builder learning to speak the language of the COTF. We are told that is a tale in and of itself and it seemed like the master was dismissing the whole tale, as he had just previously dismissed the notion of warging. I believe some form of warging went down between Brandon and the COTF in order for them to be able to communicate.

[Ser Lepus]

I'm curious to know if this was actually said somewhere. I know people have speculated on here that you might need dragonblood to be able to warg them (like Jon.) I was under the impression the idea of skinchanging a dragon (or similar creature) does not come up in the books.

I think it was during one of GRRM's public appearances, when he was answering questions and somebody asked if Bran could warg a dragon. He didn't answer the question, of course, but implied that it would be difficult.

I would have to dig a lot around the net to find the reference. It could be fake.

EDIT: Fire Eater wrote that GRRM said that no skinchanger has ever managed to control a dragon. Maybe you can ask him for the reference:

GRRM said no dragon has ever been skinchanged. I think that will change when Jon mounts one towards the end of the series.

The dragons of the different parties of the greens and blacks were said to snap at each other when brought together, suggesting that they share their masters' relationships with one another as well.

[RumHam]

Oh I remember now, ConCarolinas.

Q: What can you tell us about a warg dragon rider?

A: There is no history/precedent for someone warging a dragon. There is a rich history of the mythical bond between dragon and rider. There have been instances of dragons responding to their riders even from very far away (hmm) which shows it is a true and very strong bond. We will learn more about this. Keep reading (we hear “keep writing” from the back of the room).

http://www.staceysimms.com/george-r-r-martin-qa/

[Mithras]

Oh I remember now, ConCarolinas.

Q: What can you tell us about a warg dragon rider?

A: There is no history/precedent for someone warging a dragon. There is a rich history of the mythical bond between dragon and rider. There have been instances of dragons responding to their riders even from very far away (hmm) which shows it is a true and very strong bond. We will learn more about this. Keep reading (we hear “keep writing” from the back of the room).

http://www.staceysimms.com/george-r-r-martin-qa/

Are any of us sure that George is not talking from the mouth of a maester with limited knowledge there? Of course this does not change the fact that George subtly avoided shutting down the idea completely (i.e. he didnot destroy the idea that a dragon can be skinchanged).

[RumHam]

Are any of us sure that George is not talking from the mouth of a maester with limited knowledge there? Of course this does not change the fact that George subtly avoided shutting down the idea completely (i.e. he didnot destroy the idea that a dragon can be skinchanged).

Well firstly it's a paraphrase of what he said. So that makes it tricky. But yeah I would assume that when he says there is no history/precedent he's not saying it definitely never happened, just that people in universe have no record of it happening.

[Ser Creighton]

Don't know if this was thrown out there about the Oily rocks, or greasy rocks. But oily and greasy does not mean flammable rock, it describes the luster of the rock, certain types of Basalt fit this.

2. Low iron meteor rocks tend to look this way, which made me think of the story of the moon kissing the sun.

3, The mazes were made by fire worms? Really? The stone was hewn, which means simply cut. They are on an islands in the ocean right? Fire Worms don't fly. Plus it's a nod to another series, though I will say this them bones of the race that built the place had me thinking of the Skags. But underground mazes and cities have been around for a very, very long time in our world.

As for skinchanging Dragons, he was actually pretty clear no precedent exists, it has not happened to date. He did not say we would learn more about it either, he said we would learn more about Dragon bond. That's not to say we won't learn about warging attempts on Dragons, just that he was speaking of Dragon Bonding when he said we would learn more about this. He was not being sly, but think about it. Warging a wolf is one thing, dragons are pure magic, what is the adverse effect when you try and mix magic? What if you can't? If you do, manage it how will it effect you physically and mentally? You basically trying to warg fire. I'll lay odds with anyone doing it is bad mojo for the skinchanger, fire or ice, it's a different form of magic.

[Hrafntýr]

@Ser Creighton: The parts about lustre and the mazes being described as hewn rock have been mentioned upthread (Seastone Chair, Toad effigy, and Yeen show evidence of working by hand, unlike Hightower and Five Forts, which are fused stone). However, I don't think that the fact that some of the oily stone is located on islands rules out firewyrms, which seem to inhabit the depths of the earth. Personally, I think that there is overlap between firewyrms and what we think of as volcanic activity, and of course there are volcanoes beneath the sea.

I think your comments about the unknown effects of attempting to skinchange a magical creature are appropriate, but I think that this could be related to the climatological imbalances on Planetos. I think it's at least plausible that the firewyrms were the sleeping giants awakened by skinchangers/greenseers/Children in the past. In the section on The Breaking (237), the text describes blood sacrifice and says,

"And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled. Great cracks appeared in the earth, and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up. And then the seas came rushing in, and the Arm of Dorne was broken and shattered by the force of the water..."

I think that the similar language used here to the putative power of the Horn of Joramun (to wake the giants) is not incidental, the Horn of course being also linked to the Wall and the powers of Ice. As per your cautionary notes, if the Children/greenseers did try to control firewyrms beneath the earth/waters, it might have had unintended consequences of a magical nature.

[RumHam]

I think your comments about the unknown effects of attempting to skinchange a magical creature are appropriate, but I think that this could be related to the climatological imbalances on Planetos. I think it's at least plausible that the firewyrms were the sleeping giants awakened by skinchangers/greenseers/Children in the past. In the section on The Breaking (237), the text describes blood sacrifice and says,

"And the old gods stirred, and giants awoke in the earth, and all of Westeros shook and trembled. Great cracks appeared in the earth, and hills and mountains collapsed and were swallowed up. And then the seas came rushing in, and the Arm of Dorne was broken and shattered by the force of the water..."

I think that the similar language used here to the putative power of the Horn of Joramun (to wake the giants) is not incidental, the Horn of course being also linked to the Wall and the powers of Ice. As per your cautionary notes, if the Children/greenseers did try to control firewyrms beneath the earth/waters, it might have had unintended consequences of a magical nature.

Hm, so then there would be...Iceworms under the Wall that are gonna wake if the Horn of Joramun is blown?

[OrangeStallion]

If the black stone turns out to be an ancient aliens thing, first I will LOL then I will keep reading and I will love every second of it.

"Aliens"

[Hrafntýr]

Hm, so then there would be...Iceworms under the Wall that are gonna wake if the Horn of Joramun is blown?

Well, I was simply thinking firewyrms to be woken with the Horn, not icewyrms, but if there are ice dragons, which might be wightified dragons (?), maybe there are icewyrms or wightified firewyrms, too. But for now I'm just working with firewyrms, which are more or less confirmed to exist.

But I'm not really sure about whether there's a connection with the black stone, other than that it *could* be volcanic in origin.