Avengers 2: The SPOILER thread (warning: spoilers NOT in tags)

[denstorebog]

So, we might as well move over to a new thread, as it'll be a while before the U.S. catches up, and constant spoiler tags are tiny and petty.

What did people think? Just came back and having a hard time processing it all, but I'd say that it's about equal with the first Avengers.

On the plus side - more laughs, bigger action scenes and some quite poignant character moments, plus some actual, intriguing, dark weirdness thrown in (the mind games).

On the minus side, too much stuff going on for sure. I know that comic fans are crazy about the Vision and the twins being on the screen, but I could have lived without both. Especially the Maximoffs are actually not contributing to the plot at all. I can't say that I'm looking forward to seeing the Vision or Wanda as new Avengers unless they get a proper fleshing out first. I feel this can be done with Wanda, but Vision struck me as particularly boring from a conceptual standpoint. Also, I have to say that Wanda and Vision are extremely undefined in their powers. With the original team, you always knew who could deal with what, but now we have two more characters that shoot Coloured Power Goo™. No idea about their power levels or, more importantly, limitations.

Another minus for me was that the heroism was a bit on the nose. It's always off-putting to see the Avengers leveling half cities, then worrying about that one survivor on the 10th floor. Too many heroic poses with the sun glinting in the camera. I never thought of Joss being into that stuff, but A1 had a lot of it, and this one has more. Becomes a bit too much in the long run.

The movie was more ambitious, more suspenseful, more tense and less coherent. I would say that at any given time while watching, I was just as entertained as I was by A1, but the movie as a whole is harder to grasp and rank, and I'm not sure that's a positive thing. Probably 7/10 - and looking forward to seeing it again, getting a better understanding of the beast. It's in the MCU top 5.

[The Wolves]

So he killed Quicksilver:-(

[denstorebog]

Yeah, actually I think Wanda *and* Pietro on the new team would have been more exciting that just Wanda. At least they'd be able to play off of each other.

[RumHam]

This is probably nothing, but the last episode of Agents of Shield Coulson suggested that Project T.A.H.I.T.I. was still active. I really hope he was lying, I think people should stay dead. It was however created to revive a fallen Avenger. Coupled with Aaron Taylor-Johnson's comment that his character's fate was up in the air at the moment I think there's a slight chance he may be brought back to life. But again I really hope not.

So why did the Hulk fly off? Does he just have commitment issues?

[denstorebog]

This is probably nothing, but the last episode of Agents of Shield Coulson suggested that Project T.A.H.I.T.I. was still active. I really hope he was lying, I think people should stay dead. It was however created to revive a fallen Avenger. Coupled with Aaron Taylor-Johnson's comment that his character's fate was up in the air at the moment I think there's a slight chance he may be brought back to life. But again I really hope not.

So why did the Hulk fly off? Does he just have commitment issues?

I seriously doubt that Pietro comes back. There are way too many balls in the air already (plus many more to come before Infinity Wars) for them to start reviving characters that we don't really care about anyway.

Hulk flew off because he no longer wanted to be a danger to the people around him; presumably he would go somewhere deserted.

[Liffguard]

My thoughts, reposted from the non-spoiler thread, this time without spoiler tags.

The good:

- Hawkeye's character development. Hawkeye gets loads of development this time with some focus on the more serious side of all the "lol hawkeye" jokes and feelings of inadequacy at being the only normal person in a team of gods, monsters and miracles. Turns out, with a few minor hangups, Hawkeye is actually on a pretty even keel and a very likeable character. Good stuff.

- Banner and Widow's development, both as a couple and as individual characters. We get a little more insight into Widow's upbringing and the interplay between the two characters is great. Real chemistry there.

- Stark's character development. We get to see a bit more of a "mad scientist" side to Stark this time and it's good that the consequences of his PTSD are still being felt. In fact, Stark's PTSD basically initiates and drives the entire plot.

- The humour. There are less of Whedon's trademark quips this time which is a good thing IMO, but despite this being a heavier movie than Avengers 1 they haven't forgotten how to have fun. DC take note.

The bad:

- The plot is just too busy and crowded. Too many characters, too much going on. I honestly lost track of exactly who was doing what several times and that pretty much never happens to me. It just about hangs together but it's straining at the seams. There was also a lot that I thought was pretty superfluous and just cluttered the movie up more. Iron Man vs the Hulk? Pretty fun action scene but I thought it added too much to the movie's runtime without really contributing much to the plot. It would have been possible to do what that scene did for certain characters in less time with less moving parts. Just one example.

- Similarly, most of the action scenes were too busy and crowded. Too much happening on the screen at once, often the pace was too frenetic and there was quite a lot of shaky cam going on. IMO Winter Soldier has had the best action scenes in the series so far and I think the movies would do better trying to stick a little closer to that scale.

- Look, I get that these movies aren't experimental. Marvel has established a formula that reliably brings in the big bucks and I don't expect them to change it up too much when that formula has proven so successful. But did we really need the climax to be another CGI sky battle against a horde of faceless mooks? I get that they want to finish on a big action set piece but maybe they could play about with the staging next time?

Overall, I enjoyed it but there was a lot of wasted potential. Great character dynamics let down by an overly-convoluted story and overly-chaotic action scenes. 7/10

[ab aeterno]

I thought it was pretty good, and I'd probably go 8.5/10 ish if I had to. Some great dialogue, as always, a good nice of action, fun, and seriousness, and generally strong effects. Having said that, I thought it sagged a little in the middle, and that Ultron was a little underdeveloped, all things considered.

I also agree with the comment about the Hulk vs Iron man. Great fan service, and what everyone wanted to see, but it would have been nice if it was actually relevant, rather than essentially a stand-alone after the team has already been defeated. I understand that it's part of showing that Hulk is a danger to everyone around him, but IMO it would have been more impactful if Hulk had gone off on a collateral damage rampage during a battle, rather than after it.

I guess my summary comment, having watched them back to back (Avengers followed by Age of Ultron at midnight,) is that I really enjoyed it, but I wasn't blown away like I was with the first Avengers. I suspect that's just down to the fact that it is a sequel, so we've literally seen it before, whereas Avengers pulled off something special for the first time. Still another great entry though, and I'd say on par with the first.

As for Pietro, I'm somewhat suspicious. Joss showed him looking dead, and Wanda reacts to his apparent death, but there was no follow-through. No funeral/memorial scene, etc. and when we see Wanda again at the end she looks pretty happy. That, combined with Hawkeye regeneration scenes and the Agents of Shield episode makes me think that at the very least they're keeping their options open going forward.

[ab aeterno]

- There was a fairly large fellow came in at the start. Not morbidly obese, but still pretty hefty. He went to sit right down at the front and he broke a chair when he sat down. I don't think I've seen anything as utterly soul destroying in my life. I think he left the theatre instead of going to another seat. Felt really bad for him.

Hulk smash?

[trickster]

Good that we got the spoiler thread.

I think this movie built the tension quite well. I knew Hawkeye will appear in Cap3. But I still kept thinking he was not going to make it. This movie in many ways was about the "other" members (who do not have solo movies) of the team. I also think the Hulk vs Tony fight was quite well handled. It showed how tight a rope they are walking and how the people they are trying to save can so easily become collateral damage.

I don't think the plot was less coherent. Yes there was a lot going on. But I had no issues with that. Also the threat to humanity in this movie was far more real than some aliens on hoverscooters. It also sets up the next phase quite nicely.

[Jon AS]

Overall it was probably as good as the first one: good fun, but certainly also flawed.

Some positives:

-Ultron was fun. I didn't expect that at all from his existentialist monologue in the trailer. A welcome surprise and Spader was just great casting.

-Hawkeye's development. He was probably the most underserved of the superheroes with met in the movies so far, and it turns out he's pretty cool. The vibe of an everyman with a vague sense that he's in way over his head but still trying worked for me, and it comes pretty close to the character in the recent Fraction stories, wich is the only other interpretation I'm really familiar with.

I chuckled at how hard the movie was trying to convince us that he was going to die: look, here's his perfect family, with adorable children and a pregnant wife; and now he's gazing longingly at their picture; and now he's being strafed by a plane in slow motion...

-Likewise, development for Banner and Black Widow was very welcome.

Some negatives:

-Same old final battle. Competently executed, but surely there must be other ways to create a high-stakes finale for a superhero movie?

-I'm gonna say there were too many characters. The opening action worked, but the rest of the film really seemed to struggle giving everyone useful things to do. Thor disappeared for a large stretch in the middle seemingly just to get him out of the way, Captain America was involved in everything but it never seemed like he was truly contributing anything unique.

Falcon and War Machine were cameos (I was actually surprised Falcon didn't show up at the final battle), neither the Vision nor the twins were that fascinating.

The twins at least gave Ultron some henchmen that weren't faceless robots early in the film, but I'm not sure that the added running time spent on justifying having them in the film at all was really worth it. I mean, the entire train crash sequence was only there to show off their heel face turn and give us another demonstration of their powers, but it was just a really boring scene devoid of tension. At least Pietro is dead, I guess, one less character to worry about for the next film.

And as den said, both Scarlet Witch and Vision have very vague powers. I wasn't even clear on whether SW needed saving at the end, instead of Vision swooping in to get her (how did he know where to find her, anyway?) she could just as easily have magicked up a force field to protect herself and it wouldn't have been an additional strain on the viewers' suspension of disbelief because, according to this film, her powers are that she can do... stuff.

ETA: I am amused by the fact that this movie makes Agents of SHIELD seem utterly irrelevant. While SHIELD has been bickering about who owns the rights to the name and whether superpeople should be treated with extreme suspicion or just shot on sight, the Avengers, which obviouly include several superpowered people, cleaned up the fallout from The Winter Soldier. I don't think the movie contained a single reference to the show.

[The BlackBear]

Lazily going to copy my thoughts in from the previous thread:

Just got in from it. Pretty damn good. I feel as good a film at least as Avengers1 and a good deal shinier. I geeked out less at it maybe, but only because the novelty of seeing them all together was so strong when I first saw A1.

Characters:

The big worry was too many characters, and whilst yes the screen was full at times, I think they got away with it. Folk felt like they needed to each have their moment with others. Characters like Falcon, Rhodey, Hill, Klaw were more cameos at times than really playing their part, and their inclusion helped to draw the universe together.

Ultron was the real star of the show. Much funnier than I was expecting, purposefully like Tony I feel. I feel we were cheated on his true origins, near the end I feel it was implied he was sent by Thanos, but I might be reading too much into it. He had just the right level of childishness, like a kid going through his cynical phase but with incredible power. James Spader was an inspired choice.

Vision was an utter delight. Bettany mentioned a face to face chat with Ultron, I can only imagine he meant the one at the end, but I was expecting something deeper. All the same he offset Ultron perfectly. His late arrival sadly meant he didn’t get too much time to make his mark as the others, but he certainly did for me.

The Twins: Wanda was the less fleshed out, which since it was Pietro was the one who died. I really liked them, they’re powers were fun, and Pietro was just the right level of funny. Their motivation was maybe a little bit of a stretch, sure hold a grudge, but maybe don’t go to the Nazi/Mad Scientist :dunno: (Speaking of which killing Strucker was bold.)

Thor was just there to hit stuff, look like a god, and make funny quirks, he did it perfectly, but definitely a victim of editing. His pool visions were cut, which made his reappearance kind of jarring. And also he got grabbed by Ultron for a period of the final battle and simply vanished.

Hawkeye was expanded upon, but I still didn’t feel the spark as much as the others. Despite us finding he’s got a secret wife! It’s sad because I really like his comic book counterpart. He needs to get in a film with one of the solo guys (Civil War I’m looking at you.) I like his action scenes, and I never really bought the ‘hur hur how useless is Hawkeye’ thing, but more character please.

Iron Man: Just your standard fare really, Tony didn’t seem as remorseful as I felt he should have been, and just jumped straight to trying again. But a solid turn from Downey Jr.

Hulk and Black Widow: these two are together for obvious reasons. They went for it, and it was good. Banner was clearly the most shaken throughout the film. His rampage in South Africa shook him, and he really did have to go off. But there was a nice glimmer in the Hulk that he wasn’t totally at odds with his alter ego (just not quite back to A1 levels.) Widow offset him nicely, and around Banner she could show a softer side. And we got some info on the Red Room! My only issue is she was mostly playing a support role.

Cap was Cap. That’s really it. He’s doesn’t really go anywhere character wise. And is clearly the least affected by the visions. But him desperately fighting Ultron was a great sequence.

Lesser characters, Rhodey got to look badass so that’s fun. Falcon pretty much just popped his head in to say hi. Fury really didn’t need to show up as early as he did. Hill same really, but her being at Avengers tower was more explained. Klaw, oh fucking lord, he’s perfect. Just brilliant, as vile and dirty as you want him, the accent worked so well (although I’m not a South African so can’t speak for it’s accuracy) and he had his arm cut off. I feel they made the right choice not taking us to Wakanda just yet.

Plot:

It felt very sequential, much like A1. There wasn’t a great deal of smooth flow, but not enough to truly bother me. It is however long.

We start of at Struckers castle, carnage is to be had Strucker is good when he’s on screen. Good Hulk stuff, and the Twins are unleashed to suitable effect. Scartlet Witch sends Tony on his path and it’s clunky but alright. The anti-Avengers mood is set up nicely.

Tony builds Ultron with a surprising lack of fanfare. The party is a nice calm before the storm moment, Stan Lees cameo is average. Ultrons appearance is nice, peace in our time indeed.

Ultron brings over the Twins and it’s a nice set up. The church as the centre and coming back to it is a nice touch.

If memory serves after this falling out they go to South Africa to find Klaw. Klaw is brilliant as I’ve already said. I might be being picky but it didn’t seem he had as much Vibranium as the end suggests. The mind games are alright, but they don’t get too much focus. Hawkeye escaping it was pleasing. Cap’s was utterly pointless except for Hayley Atwell to show up. Thor’s would have worked better if we’d seen the later pool scene. Natasha’s worked well with the later revelations to Banner. And the Hulk. It was very pleasing, but I do regret having seen the first half of it online beforehand. The range of Hulbuster toys was especially good. And the fallout from it was good.

Bartons house. Thor buggers off and we don’t get nearly enough of what he sees, but sure the screens rammed as it is. Barton gets more to him but I still didn’t care somehow. Tony gets a pep talk from Fury, but really that’s just setting up his cavalry arrival at the end. Banner and Natasha get a nice talk. These two almost steal the show as far as emotional arcs go.

Tony vanishes to find Jarvis.

Ultron starts to create Vision, and we see the Mind Stone (can’t remember if it was stated, could have been the Soul, but Mind fits more for me, the colours are all switched around anyway.) Ultrons intention to become a ‘real boy’ is a nice one. Wanda finds out his plans and is suitably horrified. What follows is a good, but largely superfluous action chase scene, which mainly serves as a vessel for Barton and Romanov to prove their worth. Pietro Wand and Cap team up to save the train and go some way to building a bridge. Ultron then absconds with Romanov for seemingly no real reason, except to tell Barton where they are and to show us Ultrons nice Vibranium body, even more Adonis like than the last.

We have stalemate about Jarvis/Vision/UltronMark2 which Thor solves nicely. Banner goes pretty dark here. Although I may be a missing a little how his lightning put Jarvis into vision since Pietro had removed the cable.

Vision is a joy when he appears. And it’s all topped by Thor’s hammer.

The final sequence is very similar to the Avengers 1 sequence but with more at stake, and more dangerous opponents. It’s hectic and just unrestrained joy, Vision is a boss. The Helicarrier swoops in to help, and highlights that the Avengers alone can’t solve the problem. Ultron absconding with Thor for a while kind of sucks as he’s the real menace, but he’s brilliantly dogged and petty, gunning down Pietro was a great turn. And Wanda killing him was fitting. I feel the death toll would have still been monumental but it’s not dwelt upon. Hulk leaves which was absolutely the right direction to go.

The ending is nice not too drawn out. And we see a new Avengers roster.

The post credit scene doesn’t tell us anything we didn’t know, but it’s nice to have Thanos out of that damn chair, with the Gauntlet, and looking to my eye a little more realistic than in Guardians

and also I don't understand how they can consider him defeated when he's literally part of the internet. Defeating his physical forms should do nothing, and that was repeated time and again through the film.

Vision deleted him from the internet.

[ab aeterno]

Oh, one minor issue I did have with the finale was Ultron's army of robots. Presumably, since Ultron is all about improvement and evolution, rather than inferiority, the army he creates is supposed to be at least as strong/powerful as the Iron Legion suits.

For most of the movie, they do come across like that, but by the end, he has hundreds of them and they start going down as though they're made of paper. It's particularly noticeable in the case of Hawkeye who's just casually dropping them with arrows - and many of the arrows appear to just be standard (for him,) arrows. It kinda raises the question of why Tony would create the Iron Legion but make them so vulnerable to such a basic weapon (wielded by a character who was his enemy for a time not so long ago,) or why Ultron would take Tony's design and make it that vulnerable.

Realistically, it's just a side effect of the scale of the final battle - by bringing things in in overwhelming quantities you up the stakes, but then they all have to go down more easily.

Like I said, only a minor issue, but one that I kept noticing throughout the climax.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I've enjoyed about as much as the first Avengers.

This felt even more of an ensemble movie than the first, with good character development for the three characters that didn't appear in solo movies between the first two Avengers; Hawkeye specially, since even Whedon acknowledged he didn't give him much to do in the first, and made him fit the team so plausibly it wouldn't even be strange or surprising to see him even leading the (or a) team after CW if Cap ends dead or in prison as is speculated (no spoilers here). Banner and Natasha are well developed as well, and so is Stark, still feeling the effects of the PTSD.

By contrast, Cap and Thor don't have that much development, but just like the comics usually leave their development to the solos, I had no problems with it.

Ultron was also well developed and superbly cast; Spader makes him enough of a threat, while also being very deranged and somewhat insane. The character does miss a lot without the Oedipal complex with Pym/Janet, but he works well enough here.

The action was pretty good, even if a bit generic in the end. The Hulk vs Hulkbuster was pretty awesome, though. I disagree with those that said it contributed with nothing, because it:

a- Showed what Hulk in a complete rampage of destruction can do (which surely will contribute to Civil War);

b- Wanda messing with his mind and the ensuing rampage contributed to Banner abandoning everything and everyone. Of course, whether that will have consequences later on we can't say for sure.

That said, I think this movie could have worked fine without Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, and given more time to Rhodey and Falcon instead. If they had to kill someone, Rhodey, being Tony's best friend and a user of his technology, would have been a more fitting target.

[AndyBaelish]

Wait so Pietro does die? Called it. I can't wait.

Only a week to go.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Also, I have to say that Wanda and Vision are extremely undefined in their powers. With the original team, you always knew who could deal with what, but now we have two more characters that shoot Coloured Power Goo™. No idea about their power levels or, more importantly, limitations.

That's always been Wanda's problem. At first, all she could do was alter probability in a fairly limited way. Then she became a sorceress on par with Dr. Strange at one point. I'm not sure Marvel has ever settled on a clear definition of her powers. The Vision I most remember had complete control of his density. He could be as hard as a diamond or as immaterial as a ghost. That, and he could release energy from the solar gem that powered him in the form of "optic beams". There was a later version of the character that was kind of similar to the Living Laser, but I believe that was a fairly short-lived iteration.

[Winterfell is Burning]

That's always been Wanda's problem. At first, all she could do was alter probability in a fairly limited way. Then she became a sorceress on par with Dr. Strange at one point. I'm not sure Marvel has ever settled on a clear definition of her powers. The Vision I most remember had complete control of his density. He could be as hard as a diamond or as immaterial as a ghost. That, and he could release energy from the solar gem that powered him in the form of "optic beams". There was a later version of the character that was kind of similar to the Living Laser, but I believe that was a fairly short-lived iteration.

The thing is that Wanda's original power was "altering probabilities", but writers eventually realized that meant much more and her potential was nearly infinite.

[RumHam]

I think it's a pretty safe bet that Thanos will finish decorating his pretty little glove at some point during one of the Infinity War movies. Does this mean Vision has to die? Or can he exist without the Mind Gem?

[The BlackBear]

Well in the comics it's a solar jewel not the mind gem, so he does need that to function. Whether he needs the gem is unclear. If he draws power from it, removing it should shut him down at the very least. Thor says he'd let Vision keep it and didn't seem to concerned about killing him if he'd had to have taken it.

[Jon AS]

Regarding the revelation that the sceptre did indeed contain the Mind Gem, that means that Big Bad Thanos so far hasn't just failed to acquire any of the Infinity Gems, he's lost one in the process. Not the most impressive track record.

[The BlackBear]

It is kind of funny. If Loki still kind of wants to ally himself with him, the Space gem shouldn't be too hard to get. I'm perplexed how he's going to get the Power Stone, the reality gem shouldn't be too hard depending upon how heavy the Collector's security is after the explosion in GotG (he might even be allied with Thanos for all we know, but I doubt it.) Getting the Mind gem just needs a surprise attack.

I was interested to see that the mind gem was in fact yellow despite the blue material around it. Which means the Space gem isn't necessarily the same colour as the cube.

Just to keep up on the colours:

Soul

Time

Space Blue?

Mind Yellow

Reality Red

Power Purple

Which leave Green and Orange which are the comic book colours for those gems. The others colours have been rotated.