[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XVIII - DeReekerization

[SerGuppy]

I feel that in some ways being abused by Ramsay will turn out less devastating to Sansa's character than being tutored by Littlefinger would have been, who is, to my mind, the greatest monster on the show. Whereas Ramsay is openly cruel and depraved, Littlefinger hides his inhumanity. His violence is colder, mercantile, calculating, yet at the base all the more horrifying. He does not rape, but he is happy to be paid by rapists and murdering psychopaths for providing victims. He contributed more to eradicating the Starks than Ramsay, yet justifies this by claiming to be 'playing/disrupting the game'. Ramsay is naked barbarism, while Littlefinger is cold capitalist brutality. Ramsay is the bloodthirsty predator to Littlefinger's factory farming. It is easier to define yourself against, to resist naked barbarity, and all the easier to become complicit with mercantile murder. I could have seen her drifting further and further away from her Stark roots in Littlefinger's fangs, yet horrible as they may be, the abuses she suffers at the hand of Ramsay may lead her to true rebellion and a return to her self.

[Lord Damian]

I feel that in some ways being abused by Ramsay will turn out less devastating to Sansa's character than being tutored by Littlefinger would have been, who is, to my mind, the greatest monster on the show. Whereas Ramsay is openly cruel and depraved, Littlefinger hides his inhumanity. His violence is colder, mercantile, calculating, yet at the base all the more horrifying. He does not rape, but he is happy to be paid by rapists and murdering psychopaths for providing victims. He contributed more to eradicating the Starks than Ramsay, yet justifies this by claiming to be 'playing/disrupting the game'. Ramsay is naked barbarism, while Littlefinger is cold capitalist brutality. Ramsay is the bloodthirsty predator to Littlefinger's factory farming. It is easier to define yourself against, to resist naked barbarity, and all the easier to become complicit with mercantile murder. I could have seen her drifting further and further away from her Stark roots in Littlefinger's fangs, yet horrible as they may be, the abuses she suffers at the hand of Ramsay may lead her to true rebellion and a return to her self.

Well, Sansa is unawares of all the damge to her family that Littlefinger caused but she should now, atleast hold him at minimal, partly responsible for her suffering in Winterfell. She trusted him as much as she could and made decisions based on that and has paid a very high price. She has, however found out about her brothers and it is that to which she will cling to. I have no idea how the show will proceed going further in this dynamic between Sansa and Baelish. it will be interesting indeed.

[Stannistician]

Well, Sansa is unawares of all the damge to her family that Littlefinger caused but she should now, atleast hold him at minimal, partly responsible for her suffering in Winterfell. She trusted him as much as she could and made decisions based on that and has paid a very high price. She has, however found out about her brothers and it is that to which she will cling to. I have no idea how the show will proceed going further in this dynamic between Sansa and Baelish. it will be interesting indeed.

If she meets up with LF again, hopefully she is smart enough not to tell LF about her brothers.

[artihcus022]

If she meets up with LF again, hopefully she is smart enough not to tell LF about her brothers.

LF probably knows or suspects anyway. He knows Arya is alive and never fingered her to Tywin. Who knows considering how infatuated the show is with TV!Finger maybe they'll have him secretly employ Jaqen to train Arya and take her to Braavos?

[starklover]

After all this reading has anyone just considered that fact maybe it all comes into play. Maybe she does try to escape but is caught and taken back to WF. She then discovers she's pregnant and uses that as armor to save her from rape and beatings but also know she still has to keep Ramsay interested or she may meet a worse fate. I feel her story ends on a sad note for sure.

That leaves her still in ramsays "care"but the pregnancy would at least keep her from being raped/bred/beaten. It's pretty clear to Ramsay she is a womb and a last name. Nothing beyond. The twist would come if Sansa began to bore him. Would roose let him rid himself of her or would Ramsays impulsivity lead to him and roose at odds. Myranda may also end up playing a role. She is Ramsays play thing and is either as sadistic or plays the sadistic role for her own good. How does her jealousy of Sansa being lady Bolton or carrying a baby play in.

I've stated countless times I think Sansa will suffer eternally, as with all the Starks. So again just assume the worst and most fou, inhuman acts and ideas possible and you will be right. Damn you GRRM and D&D!!!!

if she did become pregnant. Would that really keep ramsay from beating her? I am not so sure he will ever stop. I don't roose would ramsay get rid of sansa, but you never know. I think myranda will be try to kill sansa, so that he can marry ramsay. I am pretty sure she's sadistic since she killed that girl in season 4 and had no remorse for it.

[starklover]

I don't think sasnsa will forget theon/reek any time soon. Theon/reek does feel remorse for what he did, but that not enough.

[Stannistician]

LF probably knows or suspects anyway. He knows Arya is alive and never fingered her to Tywin. Who knows considering how infatuated the show is with TV!Finger maybe they'll have him secretly employ Jaqen to train Arya and take her to Braavos?

I think he would be threatened by Bran and Rickon in a way that he wouldn't be with Arya because Sansa would no longer be heir to Winterfell. My fear is that he would want them dead.

The only people who know about Bran and Rickon that are still alive would be Jon, Sam, Ramsay, Roose, and Reek (no Manderly or Glover in the show). The Boltons have every interest in keeping it a secret, and Reek, well...

I guess its possible LF has informants in the Nights Watch who could have found out about Bran and Rickon. But considering that Show LF didn't know anything about Ramsay, the heir to the Dreadfort and Winterfell, I don't find it believable that he knows about Bran and Rickon.

[starklover]

I think he would be threatened by Bran and Rickon in a way that he wouldn't be with Arya because Sansa would no longer be heir to Winterfell. My fear is that he would want them dead.

The only people who know about Bran and Rickon that are still alive would be Jon, Sam, Ramsay, Roose, and Reek (no Manderly or Glover in the show). The Boltons have every interest in keeping it a secret, and Reek, well...

I guess its possible LF has informants in the Nights Watch who could have found out about Bran and Rickon. But considering that Show LF didn't know anything about Ramsay, the heir to the Dreadfort and Winterfell, I don't find it believable that he knows about Bran and Rickon.

I don't think lf knows that bran and rickon are alive. I find it really hard to believe that he knows nothing about Ramsay.

[Lord Damian]

Well, Bran and Rickon (w.Osha and Shaggy dog) better damn well have some quality screen time next year. i have missed them and Rickon and Osha have been gone for 2 years. We want them, we need them and so does Sansa.

[SerGuppy]

Well, Sansa is unawares of all the damge to her family that Littlefinger caused but she should now, atleast hold him at minimal, partly responsible for her suffering in Winterfell. She trusted him as much as she could and made decisions based on that and has paid a very high price. She has, however found out about her brothers and it is that to which she will cling to. I have no idea how the show will proceed going further in this dynamic between Sansa and Baelish. it will be interesting indeed.

I think I disagree with those readers who see her latest character development in the books as generally positive. To me it is depressing to witness her becoming a more manipulative, skilled player. In my mind, what Littlefinger has in stock for Sansa is total debasement. Yes, Sweet Robin is loathsome and perhaps a deserving target, but in the end Sansa would most severely damage herself if she learned to manipulate and use, perhaps even hurt him. This is not the Stark way. A dog can learn to play tricks and adapt to any master. A wolf can be beaten, wounded, but never debased. Ramsay hurt her, humiliated her, but I don't think he can debase her the way that Littlefinger is setting out to do. If Littlefinger is successful in making her his accomplice, he would eradicate her more successfully than perhaps even Theon was eradicated by Ramsay. Theon had to be broken, but Littlefinger is trying to usurp Sansa's soul in a more insidious way, and deep down, there is even some of Theon left that can resurface. I wonder if after years of Littlefingers tuttelage there would be any Stark left in Sansa

[TheCasualObserver]

I think I disagree with those readers who see her latest character development in the books as generally positive. To me it is depressing to witness her becoming a more manipulative, skilled player. In my mind, what Littlefinger has in stock for Sansa is total debasement. Yes, Sweet Robin is loathsome and perhaps a deserving target, but in the end Sansa would most severely damage herself if she learned to manipulate and use, perhaps even hurt him. This is not the Stark way. A dog can learn to play tricks and adapt to any master. A wolf can be beaten, wounded, but never debased. Ramsay hurt her, humiliated her, but I don't think he can debase her the way that Littlefinger is setting out to do. If Littlefinger is successful in making her his accomplice, he would eradicate her more successfully than perhaps even Theon was eradicated by Ramsay. Theon had to be broken, but Littlefinger is trying to usurp Sansa's soul in a more insidious way, and deep down, there is even some of Theon left that can resurface. I wonder if after years of Littlefingers tuttelage there would be any Stark left in Sansa

Her internal monologue about Sweetrobin quite clearly shows that Sansa is not involved in any attempt on his life and still believes that he will die naturally due to simply being so sickly. She is also still sympathetic to him and others in the Vale; bookSansa's goodness is still very much in evidence. Also, being manipulative in Westeros is essentially mandatory for women who want genuine agency. Lacking military capabilities, a woman in Westeros needs to learn to get others to do what she wants if she is to have any hope of positively affecting the world around her.

I am utterly incapable of seeing this plotline as something either Sansa or Littlefinger would normally do. The lack of sensible characterization leaves me seeing this situation as nothing more than a function of the plot and a shock tactic.

[SerGuppy]

Her internal monologue about Sweetrobin quite clearly shows that Sansa is not involved in any attempt on his life and still believes that he will die naturally due to simply being so sickly. She is also still sympathetic to him and others in the Vale; bookSansa's goodness is still very much in evidence. Also, being manipulative in Westeros is essentially mandatory for women who want genuine agency. Lacking military capabilities, a woman in Westeros needs to learn to get others to do what she wants if she is to have any hope of positively affecting the world around her.

I am utterly incapable of seeing this plotline as something either Sansa or Littlefinger would normally do. The lack of sensible characterization leaves me seeing this situation as nothing more than a function of the plot and a shock tactic.

Being manipulative, as a male or female, is one path to power, sure. But not everyone takes this path. The Starks in general do not manipulate people, Dany does not manipulate, Aria of course relies on needle rather than seduction. And beside that, not everyone wants to affect Westeros. Why can Sansa only have agency if she becomes a player? Can she not have agency by being perhaps the only Stark still able to return to her origin? All other Starks are either dead, undead, or in the process of becoming something - other (except maybe Rickon, no clue what is going on with him). The point I was making in my post was that Littlefinger, over short or long, will lead her to become alienated from her origin. She is kidding herself if she thinks she is not complicit in something sinister coming Sweetrobin's way. Perhaps she is willfully obtuse about it. It is easier for her to go along, instead of opening her eyes and seeing clearly who Littlefinger is. There is no sign she will rebel against him. And this will lead to her doom as a Stark. In the show, back in Winterfell, with a clear villain to oppose, she has a better chance of returning 'home' in a true sense. I would wish that for at least one Stark.

[nfe]

The point is I want to focus on the issue of this thread, that is the specific change the show made to the books by merging Sansa and Jeyne's story together. I cannot call it Bowdlerization because the stuff that happens to Sansa happens to Jeyne Poole, and to me mixing and matching Sansa's story in the middle of a TV show is absurd and senseless on a whole other level.

I'm not trying to focus you on anything else. I was simply providing the example you were looking for.

I cannot call it Bowdlerization because the stuff that happens to Sansa happens to Jeyne Poole, and to me mixing and matching Sansa's story in the middle of a TV show is absurd and senseless on a whole other level.

No you can't, because it isn't. Neither is David and Bathsheba.

The example you cited of this Movie adaptation of David and Bathsheba can only apply in this context if Ramsay and Sansa actually fell in love and had a consensual marriage.

Apply in what context? It is exactly the example you asked for: a massive alteration made in an adaptation of classical literature that vastly changes the narrative and characterisation of the major characters, and moreover is extremely offensive in that it exploits a sexually abused woman to attract its audience, yet was met with adoration, rather than derision, amongst its audience.

Alternatively, by 'can only apply in this context' are you saying only an examples of the exact same change can be compared to refute your point? That would be epitome of a No True Scpotsman fallacy and not really worth taking seriously.

Regardless, can we agree that is an example of a huge change to the 1 Samuel narrative and your claims that such an alteration has never been made in an adaptation of classic literature is invalid?

First, you're making the valid point that many adaptations drastically alter their source material and no-one complains about it. Does that mean that ASOIAF readers have no right to complain about drastic revisions of it...Did you bring it up simply as an example to show that very large changes happen (which we all acknowledge already)?

I'm pretty sure I've stated explicitly a couple of times that I brought up David and Bathsheba exclusively because Atihcus022 said radical changes have never been made in adaptations of classic literature, that their audience would not stand for it, that it is a special kind of 'treachery' reserved for genre fiction, and so could I please provide an example.

I think I can leave the rest of your post because it all revolves around you thinking I'm trying to achieve something different, yeah?

[Lord Damian]

I think I disagree with those readers who see her latest character development in the books as generally positive. To me it is depressing to witness her becoming a more manipulative, skilled player. In my mind, what Littlefinger has in stock for Sansa is total debasement. Yes, Sweet Robin is loathsome and perhaps a deserving target, but in the end Sansa would most severely damage herself if she learned to manipulate and use, perhaps even hurt him. This is not the Stark way. A dog can learn to play tricks and adapt to any master. A wolf can be beaten, wounded, but never debased. Ramsay hurt her, humiliated her, but I don't think he can debase her the way that Littlefinger is setting out to do. If Littlefinger is successful in making her his accomplice, he would eradicate her more successfully than perhaps even Theon was eradicated by Ramsay. Theon had to be broken, but Littlefinger is trying to usurp Sansa's soul in a more insidious way, and deep down, there is even some of Theon left that can resurface. I wonder if after years of Littlefingers tuttelage there would be any Stark left in Sansa

Sansa and SweetRobin are first cousins too. I have a feeling that Littlefinger to totally break Sansa, would try and have her "off" little Robin Arryn and if she does, she would be cursed by the Gods as a kinslayer. Littlefinger is poison. In the show, he set up this current abuse of Sansa but the showriters are giving him an "out" by saying he knows nothing of Ramsay and Sansa belived, it, hook, line and sinker. She has suffered for it. It also sets up an interesting scenario where Litttlefinger, show wise is on his way to Winterfell with Vale forces. Will he find out what Sansa has been subjected to? If he does, what will he do about it if Ramsay is "obtainable" for him to do something about it? This sets up some interesting things either for the end of the season or early next season.

[Lothar]

I don't understand why Book Sansa decides to marry Harry either. Littlefinger said he would give her the Eyrie and Winterfell. But at no time in her thoughts does she ever come across like she desires this sort of power.

It looks like she's just doing what he wants her to do. This is why I see book Sansa as the same character as show Sansa.

[Stannistician]

Marry Harry = she gets the Vale

Once she has the Vale, she tries to win back her home WF.

And restore the Starks. Power is incidental. She wants the Boltons out of WF.

That's only true if Sweet Robin dies. Given that, does Sansa break bad and assist LF in killing Sweet Robin or stay willfully ignorant of what LF might do to Sweet Robin? Or does she defy LF and help SR, thereby rendering the whole marry HtH, get the Vale, and take back WF plan moot?

[Lothar]

Ugh, why are you posting previews and saying what happens for Ep 10? I don't even want to see a preview for Ep 9. I pressed stop as soon as the credits rolled so I didn't have to see a preview.

You know Episode 9 hasn't aired yet, right?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I think Stannis will die in the battle by Brienne in ep 10.

Mel will burn Sansa alive to save Stannis and Jon will be resurrected instead.

Definitely looks like that from the preview. What a sad end for her character.

Now i understand why Sophie said so many times she thinks Sansa will die.

I haven't seen such thing. It makes no sense. I think Sansa's line doesn't scream "death by fire". In fact, when she says "When there's still some of me left", It has to be about Ramsay. Sansa's surviving this season, of that I'm sure.

Edit: I think Sansa's line is for Ramsay, not Stannis. Also, I think Brienne chooses her duty over vengeance and Sansa opens the gates of Winterfell to Stannis.

Edit2: Last time I tried to predict things, I was wrong. So, in that line, rest in peace, Lady Stark.

[Colonel Green]

I think Stannis will die in the battle by Brienne in ep 10.

Mel will burn Sansa alive to save Stannis and Jon will be resurrected instead.

Definitely looks like that from the preview. What a sad end for her character.

Now i understand why Sophie said so many times she thinks Sansa will die.

That's hardly 'ambiguous', is it?

Regardless, that's not happening.

[Lord Damian]

I think Sansa will die but rise as Lady Stoneheart, Mel will give her the Kiss if they reach Winterfell.