[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XVIII - DeReekerization

[starklover]

is sansa even in ep. 9?

[Lothar]

Yes, a douche but not a Ramsay Bolton, that I am sure of.

Wait until the next Alayne chapter when he locks her in her room and forces himself on her.

[Lord Damian]

I hope she refuses him .

She will do it to avenge her family against Cersei and her family. She is the younger, more beautiful queen, I am sure of that.

[Lord Damian]

I have a feeling that the only reason that sansa married ramsay is because she thought she could get revenge on her family.

betray her family is more like it. By having a Bolton baby to perpetuate there House when they wiped hers out or are trying to.

[Lord Damian]

Wait until the next Alayne chapter when he locks her in her room and forces himself on her.

i expect that to be attempted by Littlefinger at some point.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Aegon VI is unmarried and the Vale has an army he needs to take the Iron Throne. If you are LF, Harry or Aegon VI? Should be easy.

But what about Arianne and Dorne? I'm sure he needs to at least throw his lot with Dorne if he wants the IT. They're the only ones that can attest to his legitimacy by marrying the heiress of Dorne to him.

is sansa even in ep. 9?

It's possible. I'm quite sure she'll be in it, because there's just too much they need to solve by Episode 10. There's still the Fat Walda subplot, Myranda's sub-plot, the candle, Brienne...

Wait until the next Alayne chapter when he locks her in her room and forces himself on her.

I don't think this is the direction George is taking with these characters. In fact, HTH seems like the exact pawn Sansa should be able to manipulate at this point, which is what I think she'll do for a part of Winds.

[starklover]

does anyone think that myranda will go with ramsay?

[Lothar]

I don't think this is the direction George is taking with these characters. In fact, HTH seems like the exact pawn Sansa should be able to manipulate at this point, which is what I think she'll do for a part of Winds.

I think the same as you. But you know it won't all go like we think. There will be twists. Chances are it won't all be good for the characters we like.

The point is it's a possibility. It could go down like that and she'd be in the same predicament she is in the show for the exact same reasons. Not knowing who he really is. Being convinced by Littlefinger to do it even though she said she didn't want to.

[Lord Damian]

But what about Arianne and Dorne? I'm sure he needs to at least throw his lot with Dorne if he wants the IT. They're the only ones that can attest to his legitimacy by marrying the heiress of Dorne to him.

Dorne should be with Aegon anyway since his mother (if he is legit) was Princess Elia of Dorne. Besides Aegon's advisers say that while they must have Dorne with them, Dorne is not enough. They mention the Vale specifically.

[Lord Damian]

does anyone think that myranda will go with ramsay?

Maybe, I cannot wait till Sunday.

[Grail King]

does anyone think that myranda will go with ramsay?

personally I hope she dies, after she does in Walda, and Sansa does her in.

I know I sound heartless.

[FreeParking]

Wait until the next Alayne chapter when he locks her in her room and forces himself on her.

It is interesting to note that people tend to say that Harry is like a young Robert, and in AFFC we learn that Robert would sometimes get drunk and go to Cersei's bed and beat her.

Aegon VI is unmarried and the Vale has an army he needs to take the Iron Throne. If you are LF, Harry or Aegon VI? Should be easy.

fAegon marrying Sansa wouldn't bring him the Vale, and Davos has been looking for Rickon for a while now.

[voodooqueen126]

I think Harry the Heir is a bit of a frat boy, without a great filter or aristocratic self control, and at this point in the Sansa's arc, where, whilst she is no longer the pawn that she was from 1-3, she is not yet the queen and certainly not yet the chessmaster, Harry the Heir, given his obvious deficits, is a great practice run for Sansa to manipulate. He is not unstable and psychopathic like Joffrey*, but nor is he self controlled and well rounded like say Garlan or Davos.

*Generally speaking emotional people are easy to manipulate, which is why you should be very wary of people who encourage you to act upon your emotions.

[Lord Freypie]

http://40.media.tumblr.com/fc0bcd3e7877bbb0cd6dd8cec6ffb82c/tumblr_npgmlnAusb1stpcodo5_1280.jpg

Well, it looks like there will be indeed be a pregnancy storyline. Very surprising.

Looks like Sansa will be stuck with Ramsay for a while now. This is not going to end well.

Shes probably going to die next season. Thats why Sophie said over & over that she thinks Sansa will die in S6.

:bang:

I don't really see how you conclude that from this article. It's just said "Sansa relationship with Ramsay will take a new turn".

May mean she will finally succeed to manipulate him, that she will escape and be hunted (it's also said Brienne will be involved), that Roose will die making Ramsay the lord of the north, that Sansa will succeed to out Myranda, or whatever..

Only slightly worrying thing is that it looks like their "relationship" will continue. But was extremely obvious they weren't going to kill their lead vilain before next season after all the time they spent on him, so it's hardly a news for me.

PS :

Thinking about it, there's a big difference between show and book Ramsay that may have an importance : as his Myranda scene showed show!Ramsay don't hate to be criticized the only thing he really hates is to be bored, and he may even be a bit masochistic in addition to being a sadist (Myranda bites him, he likes it as it's "not boring").

He dislikes his victims showing weaknesses (he mocked Theon for his sentimental speech about the Starks), and potentially prefers them ruthlessly counter-attacking (he has let Sansa call him "bastard" two times, what book!Ramsay would never have allowed, imo because he liked that surprising boldness from her).

So now she is armed, Sansa may try to stab Ramsay at some point, fail but instead of being punished, end more respected by him for that, to the point he'll start to prefer her over Myranda and allow Sansa to have the influence / complicit role the former previously had.

PPS : ok I'm trying to find a logic in show!characterization which may be just a form what booksnob glossary calls honeypoting at this point. But logically they made the alterations of Ramsay character (including showing him having a willful ruthless lover he doesn't mistreat) for some reason, and it may be to allow Sansa to take that place at some point.

[Hath4]

I don't really see how you conclude that from this article. It's just said "Sansa relationship with Ramsay will take a new turn".

May mean she will finally succeed to manipulate him, that she will escape and be hunted (it's also said Brienne will be involved), that Roose will die making Ramsay the lord of the north, that Sansa will succeed to out Myranda, or whatever..

Only slightly worrying thing is that it looks like their "relationship" will continue. But was extremely obvious they weren't going to kill their lead vilain before next season after all the time they spent on him, so it's hardly a news for me.

PS :

Thinking about it, there's a big difference between show and book Ramsay that may have an importance : as his Myranda scene showed show!Ramsay don't hate to be criticized the only thing he really hates is to be bored, and he may even be a bit masochistic in addition to being a sadist (Myranda bites him, he likes it as it's "not boring").

He dislikes his victims showing weaknesses (he mocked Theon for his sentimental speech about the Starks), and potentially prefers them ruthlessly counter-attacking (he has let Sansa call him "bastard" two times, what book!Ramsay would never have allowed, imo because he liked that surprising boldness from her).

So now she is armed, Sansa may try to stab Ramsay at some point, fail but instead of being punished, end more respected by him for that, to the point he'll start to prefer her over Myranda and allow Sansa to have the influence / complicit role the former previously had.

PPS : ok I'm trying to find a logic in show!characterization which may be just a form what booksnob glossary calls honeypoting at this point. But logically they made the alterations of Ramsay character (including showing him having a willful ruthless lover he doesn't mistreat) for some reason, and it may be to allow Sansa to take that place at some point.

I do not think that Sansa is going to become his new evil henchman. that would be beyond silly.

[artihcus022]

Anyway at least this confirms Sansa will remain in WF till episode 10. But Ramsay will probably return to WF by 10 too. I wonder how they will escape, if at all they do.

At this point does anybody give a bloody damn? I mean so what. The characters are not characters anymore, they are cheap melodramatic figures without substance why should anyone really care.

[nfe]

That is because the general belief is people think fantasy does not merit the same prestige and attention to source material as literary fiction. You trying putting non-canonical rapes in adaptations of Charles Dickens, James Joyce, Graham Greene and Tolstoy and see how people react then.

Prospero as a woman on film? That went down fine. Imagine the rage if Jon Snow became Jane Snow!

Sherlock Homes 100 years later? Lauded with praise. Ridiculous huffs would be taken if Game of Thrones began c.400AL and the epoch date is entirely arbitrary so long as the internal dating is consistent!

Nick writing from a sanitarium in The Great Gatsby? No one cares (probably except high school teachers who'll have to mark essays by people who watch the film instead of reading it). Pretend Game of Thrones was entirely presented as Tyrion's memiors.

Everything that happens in every film about classical myths? Classicists just laugh. It's fun and silly! Who cares!

They're the ones off the top of my head. But the world is not short of major changes to classics in adaptations and generally NO ONE CARES.

[artihcus022]

They're the ones off the top of my head.

Well, the top of your head could use more work. Like many blind defender of the show, you parrot senseless arguments and ignore the issue. None of the things you write about are anywhere close to having say Jay Gatsby be raped or Sherlock Holmes made into Moriarty's love slave.

[Lord Freypie]

I do not think that Sansa is going to become his new evil henchman. that would be beyond silly.

I'm not saying she will become the new Myranda, happy to help him hunt girls and all that, but she'll have to play this kind of role to manipulate him.

Would be coherent with what showmakers said about her arc being her trying to learn how to control Ramsay, and their confusion between being a dark character and being a player (+ back to books the question of a "bad side of the force" Sansa evolution is still open, if it certainly wouldn't be the same kind as becoming chief psycho assistant).

[nfe]

Well, the top of your head could use more work. Like many blind defender of the show, you parrot senseless arguments and ignore the issue. None of the things you write about are anywhere close to having say Jay Gatsby be raped or Sherlock Holmes made into Moriarty's love slave.

I'm not defending the show. I'm retorting to what are quite ill-thought-out criticisms. I'm not sure whose arguments I'm parroting or which issues I'm ignoring, either. A person was raped in the book. A person was raped by the same offender in the show, in the same scenario. The victim was changed. This is not the same as conjuring an event totally out of thin air, though because of that victim the changeis substantial. That said, non-canonical major events are added in adaptations of classics with some regularity without incurring outrage - the Gatsby example above, for instance. My point was that it is usually only in genre fiction that this type of thing recieves such derision. A point which I think stands, based on the above. I don't think that has anything to do with people's derisive view of genre fiction, though that's certainly something that exists, but far more to do with the fanbase - in much the same way as bands and artists in niche genres recieve far stronger negative responses from fans for changes in direction than more mainstream acts.

It would be a more pleasant experience all round if you could debate with a bit more politeness. My job centres on research and debate surrounding the relationships between practitioners of different religious systems in Israel and that's generally conducted in a more friendly manner!

Edit: Tell you what though, if we must talk specifically about rape in adaptations of classic literature, how about the coercion and rape of Bathsheba and the murder of her husband in 1 Samuel being transformed into a wholesome love story about a man rescuing a woman abused by her husband in in the Gregory Peck David and Bathsheba?

I don't think you can find a more potentially volatile audience than a religious one and they love that film that not only fundamentally changes the plot, but the origin of the entire lineage and history of Judaism and Christianity!