[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XVIII - DeReekerization

[Lord Freypie]

You don't think the Sansa plot on GRRM web site has nothing to do with Sansa in season 5?

The whole Myranda thing in show is lifted from there.

I'm curious have you found any similitude between book! and show! Myranda out of their name ?

One is a commoner the other noble.

One is the lover of the guy Sansa is to marry, the other probably not.

One is interested in marrying Littlefinger the other not.

One asks questions eventually hinting she suspect Sansa true identity the other don't need to.

One is friendly with Sansa (or at least play the friend) and she ends considering her like her best since Jeyne Poole, the other just try to frighten her and she hate her.

etc...

IMO they are about as similar as show!Lana and book!Lanna.

Only vague parallel I can find is it can be considered that the two warn Sansa about the guy she will be bethroted to (but I'm not sure at all book!Myranda intent is to warn her, she's just gossiping about everything + having bastards isn't really equal to hunting and flaying girls).

[Grail King]

I'm curious have you found any similitude between book! and show! Myranda out of their name ?

One is a commoner the other noble.

One is the lover of the guy Sansa is to marry, the other probably not.

One is interested in marrying Littlefinger the other not.

One asks questions eventually hinting she suspect Sansa true identity the other don't need to.

One is friendly with Sansa (or at least play the friend) and she ends considering her like her best since Jeyne Poole, the other just try to frighten her and she hate her.

etc...

IMO they are about as similar as show!Lana and book!Lanna.

Only vague parallel I can find is it can be considered that the two warn Sansa about the guy she will be bethroted to (but I'm not sure at all book!Myranda intent is to warn her, she's just gossiping about everything + having bastards isn't really equal to hunting and flaying girls).

Yes I do, reread it, change ramsey to LF and or HTH

Myranda playing nice but using cutting words and Sansa hears and picks up on the jealousy in her voice.

and throughout the whole Vale encounter there are tie ins to the show.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

You don't think the Sansa plot on GRRM web site has nothing to do with Sansa in season 5?

The whole Myranda thing in show is lifted from there.

Along with the Make him yours line.

Absolutely it has nothing to do with Sansa in season 5.

In the Alayne chapter on GRRM's website, she is Alayne Stone and she was in the Vale. In the show, she is Sansa Stark and she's in Winterfell. Completely different.

The "whole Myranda thing" in the show that was "lifted from there" is only the name "Myranda". Myranda Royce is in the Vale and she is not Ramsay Bolton's girlfriend. Completely different.

The line (and only that line) is indeed the same line, but one single line doesn't prove equivalence, especially when the entire context surrounding that particular line is completely different.

So, no - they are not alike in any way, shape or form.

[Grail King]

Absolutely it has nothing to do with Sansa in season 5.

In the Alayne chapter on GRRM's website, she is Alayne Stone and she was in the Vale. In the show, she is Sansa Stark and she's in Winterfell. Completely different.

The "whole Myranda thing" in the show that was "lifted from there" is only the name "Myranda". Myranda Royce is in the Vale and she is not Ramsay Bolton's girlfriend. Completely different.

The line (and only that line) is indeed the same line, but one single line doesn't prove equivalence, especially when the entire context surrounding that particular line is completely different.

So, no - they are not alike in any way, shape or form.

I disagree, which is my right as is it yours.

[Lothar]

Not in Season 5 and certainly not for the Sansa story there.

It sure is. Same character with same relation to LF agreeing to marry with similar reasoning and similarly not deciding for herself being coerced into it. The only big difference is show Sansa is doing it for revenge and I'm not sure why book Sansa is doing it other than LF wants it. And Harry the Heir happens to be a psychopath here.

They just basically took Sansa's same plot line from the vale, scratched out Harry the Heir, and wrote Ramsay Bolton.

[Lord Freypie]

Yes I do, reread it, change ramsey to LF and or HTH

Is Littlefinger littlefinger really a little finger ?

Is Ramsay ramsay really a Ram say ?

Don't work. :crying:

[Grail King]

Why do you think GRRM was forced to rush out that sample chapter on Sansa?

It was a heads up.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Doesn't matter how many times you say it, logic isn't really relevant. Are you using it as a synonym for 'sense'?

So you've decided it's fanfiction (which, after all, is still based on the source material!). Cool. Just watch it as that then?

It does seem a bit of an odd position to take given how many centuries people have been adapting other people's works with pretty extreme changes whilst audiences happily called them adaptations throughout, of course, but if that's your take on it, why complain? Just watch it as that or don't bother? That said, I do understand the fun of complaining for complainings sake.

"Doesn't really matter how many times you say it, logic isn't really relevant"????? LOL LOL LOL! Go visit D&D, they'll hire you as a writer. "Logic isn't really relevant" is their M.O.

If the word "logic" is or is not being used as a synonym for "sense" the point is still that D&D's version of the material isn't logical and it doesn't make sense. Both things are true.

And for the nth time, nobody is complaining that they didn't portray the books word-for-word exactly the same. We're all smart people who understand that adapting a literary work for a completely different medium requires changes to the source material. That's fine, really it is. It's just that the changes they have decided to make aren't logical and don't make sense even in the context of an adaptation. Their changes don't make sense even within their own adaptation.

So I disagree absolutely that the show is, at this point, "still based on the source material". It isn't. The only things that are the same are the names of some characters (repeat, some characters; "Yara", anyone?), even if the same-named characters in the book act in exactly the 180-degree opposite way.

I also disagree absolutely that the show is fan-fiction. That label implies that the show is being adapted by fans and I completely disbelieve that D&D are fans. Fans would make every attempt to make the deviations line up with the overarching themes of the original and to preserve the essence of the author's work even if they have to use vastly different means to convey them. But, we should never forget this: "Themes are for 8th-grade book reports," Benioff said, sneering.

[rosehustle1]

Considereing the show wrttiers insinuating that Sansa is being punished for sexually rejecting Tyrion and not consummate the marriage, yeah, they would punish her even more by humiliatingly writing her character to fall at his feet. Anything is possible with her. I suspect the show creators and writers hating Sansa's book character as she may remind them of the pretty girl in school that rejected them so they are taking it out on the show. Maybe Grrm is a little like that but has not gone that far with Sansa, yet.

This is the impression I get too. God, I wish they had some women writers or at least women directors. I think this character is their blind spot, in terms of writing consistent characterization.

[TheKitttenGuard]

Why do you think GRRM was forced to rush out that sample chapter on Sansa?

It was a heads up.

The only reason GRRM "forced to rush" (After nearly 10 years) the Sansa chapters was that the WOW is not out and Sansa would be beyond any publish material. Even HtH and SR poisoning will be beyond published material at this point. Sansa chapter would of happen regardless because they were caught up.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Why do you think GRRM was forced to rush out that sample chapter on Sansa?

It was a heads up.

I'm sure Sansa won't be raped on the books, as I agree with Elio and George on the matter. George said this is a godzilla.

[rosehustle1]

Could somebody even explain to me why Sansa even agreed to this marriage again? I've pointed out how ridiculous it is for LF to agree to placing her in Winterfell, but what was Sansa's reasoning again?

This is something I'm still trying to figure out. She loses more than she gains. Boltons get more power instead of less, and she legally becomes a psychopath's property.

[Mladen]

This is the impression I get too. God, I wish they had some women writers or at least women directors. I think this character is their blind spot, in terms of writing consistent characterization.

From day one, female characters have been blind spot. Daenerys has been transformed into inhuman warrior princess. Catelyn was stripped away of everything but motherhood. Women solely manipulate men by widening their legs - Melisandre with Gendry, Margaery with Tommen. Ellaria has been transformed into God knows what, while Sand Snakes are basically cartoon.

[rosehustle1]

I'm curious have you found any similitude between book! and show! Myranda out of their name ?

One is a commoner the other noble.

One is the lover of the guy Sansa is to marry, the other probably not.

One is interested in marrying Littlefinger the other not.

One asks questions eventually hinting she suspect Sansa true identity the other don't need to.

One is friendly with Sansa (or at least play the friend) and she ends considering her like her best since Jeyne Poole, the other just try to frighten her and she hate her.

etc...

IMO they are about as similar as show!Lana and book!Lanna.

Only vague parallel I can find is it can be considered that the two warn Sansa about the guy she will be bethroted to (but I'm not sure at all book!Myranda intent is to warn her, she's just gossiping about everything + having bastards isn't really equal to hunting and flaying girls).

I agree. The show plot for Sansa is like a parallel universe. It's the same world, mostly the same characters used, but completely different decisions and characterizations.

[Grail King]

I'm sure Sansa won't be raped on the books, as I agree with Elio and George on the matter. George said this is a godzilla.

No, she won't, but I do think she will loose her virginity.

[rosehustle1]

From day one, female characters have been blind spot. Daenerys has been transformed into inhuman warrior princess. Catelyn was stripped away of everything but motherhood. Women solely manipulate men by widening their legs - Melisandre with Gendry, Margaery with Tommen. Ellaria has been transformed into God knows what, while Sand Snakes are basically cartoon.

They do have a terrible track record. I wonder why they don't try to hire more women in the writing department, since these have been criticisms for the entire run of the show. A little humility and understanding that maybe they don't get women characters the way they think they do and researching, would really improve these narratives. George Miller hired Eve Ensler for help with writing realistic rape survivors in Mad Max. I think it's good to recognize one's ignorance in a certain field and then learn from others who actually have some knowledge.

[Mladen]

They do have a terrible track record. I wonder why they don't try to hire more women in the writing department, since these have been criticisms for the entire run of the show. A little humility and understanding that maybe they don't get women characters the way they think they do and researching, would really improve these narratives. George Miller hired Eve Ensler for help with writing realistic rape survivors in Mad Max. I think it's good to recognize one's ignorance in a certain field and then learn from others who actually have some knowledge.

Can you imagine a guy stating "Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen." showing that sign of maturity? I agree completely with you, but we are where we are...

[nfe]

"Doesn't really matter how many times you say it, logic isn't really relevant"????? LOL LOL LOL! Go visit D&D, they'll hire you as a writer. "Logic isn't really relevant" is their M.O.

If the word "logic" is or is not being used as a synonym for "sense" the point is still that D&D's version of the material isn't logical and it doesn't make sense. Both things are true.

Logic isn't relevant to narrative, I'm afraid. Because human actions are often illogical. Most of us do illogical things and make illogical choices almost daily. A narrative in which everyone behaves logically would be pretty dull, not to mention extremely hard to take seriously. Whether it is coherent is a different matter and you can argue it isn't if you want, but that's a very different issue that whether itis logical or not. It's a problem if Spok does something illogical, but it's entirely believeable is Sansa Stark does.

I presume you think GRRM is an imbecile for having Robb sleep with someone when he was due to marry another? Not a logical move, but an entirely believable one.

So I disagree absolutely that the show is, at this point, "still based on the source material". It isn't. The only things that are the same are the names of some characters (repeat, some characters; "Yara", anyone?), even if the same-named characters in the book act in exactly the 180-degree opposite way.

You can disagree if you like. I think it is. In the same fashion that an untold number of adaptations are unchallengingly described as such regardless of a wealth of changes. To each his own.

I also disagree absolutely that the show is fan-fiction.

So do I. I was responding to the quoted post.

[rosehustle1]

Logic isn't relevant to narrative, I'm afraid. Because human actions are often illogical. Most of us do illogical things and make illogical choices almost daily. A narrative in which everyone behaves logically would be pretty dull, not to mention extremely hard to take seriously. Whether it is coherent is a different matter and you can argue it isn't if you want, but that's a very different issue that whether itis logical or not. It's a problem if Spok does something illogical, but it's entirely believeable is Sansa Stark does.

I presume you think GRRM is an imbecile for having Robb sleep with someone when he was due to marry another? Not a logical move, but an entirely believable one.

You can disagree if you like. I think it is. In the same fashion that an untold number of adaptations are unchallengingly described as such regardless of a wealth of changes. To each his own.

So do I. I was responding to the quoted post.

I think characters can make bad decisions but still be in character. I think that is what is the issue. Sansa's characterization has been different every episode. In addition, some logic has to be applied for the characters to remain in-character, because it doesn't seem logical for Littlefinger to give away a powerful asset like Sansa to someone he doesn't know much about. He is a character that gains his power through the knowledge he has on others. It is not logical for him to suddenly not be this person just to suit a story arc. Just as it isn't logical for Roose to agree to this marriage when he is going against a powerful ally and this could get out. He is much more cautious than this. Additionally, it isn't logical for Sansa to give up her agency, because that's what marriage will do by making her Ramsay's property, when she had just proven to have the upperhand on Littlefinger and the Vale Lords were on her side. The Sansa who saved Littlefinger last season and understood what a duplicitous man he is, would have questioned how she would get revenge instead of just going off some vague notion.

[nfe]

I think characters can make bad decisions but still be in character. I think that is what is the issue.

I'd agree. But then you go on to say:

it isn't logical for Sansa to give up her agency...when she had just proven to have the upperhand on Littlefinger and the Vale Lords were on her side. The Sansa who saved Littlefinger last season and understood what a duplicitous man he is, would have questioned how she would get revenge instead of just going off some vague notion.

No, it isn't logical. But it is believable with even cursory attention to how wildly people can behave under stress, and not necessarily in conflict with the character of a young girl full of both fear and rage.

Anyway, I'll leave this argument be as it's broadly semantic and borne of people simply using the word 'logic' incorrectly - I accept in most cases people mean 'believable'.