[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XVIII - DeReekerization

[Mish Windage]

Could somebody even explain to me why Sansa even agreed to this marriage again? I've pointed out how ridiculous it is for LF to agree to placing her in Winterfell, but what was Sansa's reasoning again?

Mostly LF manipulation (be a player) but I think the easiest rationale would be revenge from the inside.

[artihcus022]

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to grasp and why everyone is intent on arguing that Imagined New Political Genius Sansa should be immune to LF's well-practiced (and endlessly remarked upon) political nous.

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to grasp that the plot makes zero goddamn sense and and why everyone is intent on coming up with lame-o justifications for it.

The biggest idiot is Roose Bolton. Why does Roose Bolton thinks marrying a known fugitive into his family will solve his problems? Where is his famous caution? Let us assume that Roose defeats Stannis, lets also assume that Littlefinger is loyal, lets also assume that after Sansa gives birth to Bolton!Spawn, he offs her and keeps the kid. Even with all this, the Lannister-Tyrells are going to come for him. Many of the Northern Lords will turn to the Crown in droves to kill the traitor, when Winter comes, the Tyrells are totally blocking his food supply and Littlefinger's treachery and Sansa's death, they will hold him responsible for Joffrey's death and finish both him and Roose and wash their past and bad books forever. That is assuming that the Lannisters lose to the Tyrells, which is still a bit iffy. If Cersei and/or Kevan are still around, Roose will be made an example of.

If Roose defeats Stannis, and if he defeats Littlefinger when the latter turns on him, he has to fight the Lannister-Tyrells because he has openly defied the Crown. The Tyrells are guilty as sin and Sansa was framed by them, there is no way that they will let Roose go unpunished especially since it will make them popular in the North. Roose's only option is to become King in the North, a historical Stark title never worn by any Bolton and which the war-weary and Stark-Loyal North will never accept him as. His last option is to conquer Westeros and take the Iron Throne, and I think even Roose's biggest fans can't see him do that.

There is absolutely no profit for Roose Bolton in any of this, except an alliance with Littlefinger, a.k.a. Brothel-Keeper with zero military experience and no land and army of his own and who by harboring Sansa in his custody is plainly, in his eyes, a conspirator to Joffrey's death. You know what book!Roose would have done, he'd clasp LF in chains, torture him, and send him and Sansa to the Crown, in exchange Roose, by displaying his loyalty to Cersei can dictate demands. Soldiers and Food in the North (Cersei would love Tyrells out of KL), getting Sansa as official hostage bride anyway (he can hint to Cersei about Ramsay's plans for her and Cersei would love that) or make Ramsay foster with the Lannisters or something. He has everything to gain by staying loyal to the Lannisters and everything to lose in the most generous scenarios by screwing them over.

[nfe]

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to grasp that the plot makes zero goddamn sense and and why everyone is intent on coming up with lame-o justifications for it.

It's not a case of whether it makes sense or not. It's a case of what is clearly intended. Once you have that nailed down, you can decide whether it makes sense on its own merits. Arguing that the plot doesn't make sense based on a bunch of misrepresented information is pretty disengenuous.

Sansa is clearly being portrayed as still beng under LF's thrall rather than making choices based on her own best interests - although she is beginning to think she has some control over what's happening to her (and of course at this point she's going to be pretty skeptical about LF's intentions, but I'm talking about the last time she was with him, prior to the marriage). Whether you think that's believable or not is up to you.

There's a bunch of other stuff going on as well, of course, all of which make varying degrees of sense, but I've only been talking about Sansa, and I think her scenes are being willfully misread by people displeased with the northern plot as a whole.

[WSmith84]

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to grasp that the plot makes zero goddamn sense and and why everyone is intent on coming up with lame-o justifications for it.

The biggest idiot is Roose Bolton. Why does Roose Bolton thinks marrying a known fugitive into his family will solve his problems? Where is his famous caution? Let us assume that Roose defeats Stannis, lets also assume that Littlefinger is loyal, lets also assume that after Sansa gives birth to Bolton!Spawn, he offs her and keeps the kid. Even with all this, the Lannister-Tyrells are going to come for him. Many of the Northern Lords will turn to the Crown in droves to kill the traitor, when Winter comes, the Tyrells are totally blocking his food supply and Littlefinger's treachery and Sansa's death, they will hold him responsible for Joffrey's death and finish both him and Roose and wash their past and bad books forever. That is assuming that the Lannisters lose to the Tyrells, which is still a bit iffy. If Cersei and/or Kevan are still around, Roose will be made an example of.

If Roose defeats Stannis, and if he defeats Littlefinger when the latter turns on him, he has to fight the Lannister-Tyrells because he has openly defied the Crown. The Tyrells are guilty as sin and Sansa was framed by them, there is no way that they will let Roose go unpunished especially since it will make them popular in the North. Roose's only option is to become King in the North, a historical Stark title never worn by any Bolton and which the war-weary and Stark-Loyal North will never accept him as.

There is absolutely no profit for Roose Bolton in any of this, except an alliance with Littlefinger, a.k.a. Brothel-Keeper with zero military experience and no land and army of his own and who by harboring Sansa in his custody is plainly, in his eyes, a conspirator to Joffrey's death. You know what book!Roose would have done, he'd clasp LF in chains, torture him and send him to the crown and have Sansa be declared innocent by the Lannisters while telling Cersei that Sansa will be daily raped and then killed after giving birth to a child. Cersei would totally go ahead with it, provided that she get her head delivered at the appointed time.

Agreed. Sansa's decision to agree to the thing is baffling, but it's Roose and LF who are the real idiots here. Neither actually gains anything from this marriage and LF is risking a valuable piece needlessly.

[WSmith84]

It's not a case of whether it makes sense or not. It's a case of what is clearly intended. Once you have that nailed down, you can decide whether it makes sense on its own merits.

Sansa is clearly being portrayed as still beng under LF's thrall rather than making choices based on her own best interests - although she is beginning to think she has some control over what's happening to her. Whether you think that's believable or not is up to you.

But the plot doesn't make sense regardless of how we view Sansa. LF has no reason to put her in Winterfell; it just risks her life and achieves nothing. Roose has so little to gain from the marriage and so much to lose. Sansa could be a drooling moron or a political genius, but it makes no difference; the story lacks any semblance of logic.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Sansa is clearly being portrayed as still beng under LF's thrall rather than making choices based on her own best interests -

Actually, it's not.

Last season left very clear that Sansa had realised she could control LF. And not only that, she saved him. That's how she "played" the game. He owed her his life.

That alone could have been interpreted as "I'm doing this because I like you" but the whole "I know what you want" and presenting herself in a more sexual attire it was a visual representation of her growing as a woman and a player that had now LF tied to her own little finger. You don't play those games with someone you trust. You play games like that with people you don't trust because you need some leverage and tricks to make them do what you want and what is good for you.

[nfe]

But the plot doesn't make sense regardless of how we view Sansa. LF has no reason to put her in Winterfell; it just risks her life and achieves nothing. Roose has so little to gain from the marriage and so much to lose. Sansa could be a drooling moron or a political genius, but it makes no difference; the story lacks any semblance of logic.

See my edit above. I've only been talking about Sansa. Again though, 'logic' is a very problematic word when you're talking about humans in stressful situations.

Actually, it's not.

Last season left very clear that Sansa had realised she could control LF. And not only that, she saved him. That's how she "played" the game. He owed her his life.

I don't agree last season left that clear at all. What I think it left clear was that Sansa thought she could control LF.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't agree last season left that clear at all. What I think it left clear was that Sansa thought she could control LF.

Then they made her an idiot because it was clear that she owned his ass.

[Grail King]

Broadly this. I think she does trust him, but because of his exploiting her like that. I'm not sure why it's so difficult to grasp and why everyone is intent on arguing that Imagined New Political Genius Sansa should be immune to LF's well-practiced (and endlessly remarked upon) political nous.

No she doesn't, it's stated in her head in the books, it's stated visually in the show in her room scene where she is sewing her dress and her little pout, and it's shown in the North scene in the carriage talk, the crypts talk and even in the Moat Calen over look, he just used her love of her family to mind screw her.

[nfe]

Then they made her an idiot because it was clear that she owned his ass.

Are you responding to the opposite of what I just said? I'm not sure if you've misread it. I said she believed she has some power of him, but that belief is false. Not that she had it but didn't realise it.

Of course, and I'm not sure it's worth repeating given how many times I've said it in pretty short succession, but even if she didn't believe she had the upper hand with LF, or didn't act upon it, that doesn't make her an idiot. People who've been under extreme stress and through traumatic experiences aren't often the first ones to realise or grasp what would logically seem like their opportunities. Such as all those women who never report their husbands who beat them even when there's overwhelming evidence that would put them in prison.

No she doesn't, it's stated in her head in the books, it's stated visually in the show in her room scene where she is sewing her dress and her little pout, and it's shown in the North scene in the carriage talk, the crypts talk and even in the Moat Calen over look, he just used her love of her family to mind screw her.

I should have phrased that better. My bad. I don't mean that she thinks 'yay LF totally has my best interests at heart!' but that she thinks 'doing what LF wants is my best avenue here'.

[artihcus022]

LF has no reason to put her in Winterfell; it just risks her life and achieves nothing.

With Show!Littlefinger its kind of hard to talk because the way they have written him you can ascribe the most senseless motivations to him and still make it work.

The only way Littlefinger's actions make sense is if he's a suicide bomber who wants to take as many things down as possible before he blows up.

1) Littlefinger is hated by the Vale Lords and only thanks to Sansa did he get away with murder and get a good reputation and respect from Royce and Waynwood. Both of them you can reasonably expect (they would know from Robin Arryn who is fostered with Royce) would think that Sansa will marry Robin somewhere down the line and unite Stark and Arryn. By puting Robin in Royce's care and Sansa in Bolton's, LF has no bargaining chip left among the Vale Lords, aside from being Robert's Lord Protector. If the Vale finds out about Sansa marrying Bolton they will think that the Sansa they saw was an impostor, or that Sansa is a femme fatale who seeks Winterfell and her brother's claim and actually collaborated with the Lannisters and Boltons on the Red Wedding and is a Lady MacBeth type, they can say "Well she's crazy Lysa's niece after all". Either way, LF is ruined.

2) He gets an Okay from Cersei to go medieval on Roose Bolton's ass. That means that he has to eventually kill Sansa if Roose Bolton wins because his only other option is to go into rebellion and fight the Iron Throne. The only way LF can continue to struggle against Cersei is by turning cloak and joining Stannis. Or he can prove to be genuinely loyal to the Boltons and fight with them against the Lannisters and Tyrells (why the Vale lords would support the Boltons is beyond me but I think LF puts love potion in their drinks or something) and the Boltons can't win in any scenario against the Iron Throne.

[Lothar]

Could somebody even explain to me why Sansa even agreed to this marriage again? I've pointed out how ridiculous it is for LF to agree to placing her in Winterfell, but what was Sansa's reasoning again?

In both the book and the show, it's something she really doesn't want to do and doesn't think she can do, but LF is able to convince her that it's a good idea. They're not exactly on equal footing. It's a teacher/student relationship. Remember, she's in her mid teens. She agreed because she wants revenge and LF convinced her that he has a way for her to do it. She knows he's smart and a master of plans. She knows LF well enough to know he isn't trying to trick her when he tells her Ramsay has fallen for her. She just doesn't know that LF has been tricked.

[artihcus022]

In both the book and the show...

Please fo not under any circumstances bring the books into this.

[Grail King]

Please fo not under any circumstances bring the books into this.

Why not ? it's the bases for the show.

[artihcus022]

Why not ? it's the bases for the show.

Not in Season 5 and certainly not for the Sansa story there.

[nfe]

Not in Season 5 and certainly not for the Sansa story there.

Are you one of these folks that says Sherlock is not based on the works of Arthur Conan Doyle (but probably accepts that the Lion King is based on Hamlet)?

[Grail King]

Not in Season 5 and certainly not for the Sansa story there.

You don't think the Sansa plot on GRRM web site has nothing to do with Sansa in season 5?

The whole Myranda thing in show is lifted from there.

Along with the Make him yours line.

[artihcus022]

You don't think the Sansa plot on GRRM web site has nothing to do with Sansa in season 5?

The whole Myranda thing in show is lifted from there.

I have read all that yes, but the point is that its definitely not the books in the show. The show is fanfiction, stripped of any legitimacy as adaptation. Trying to sort out any semblance of logic is pointless.

[nfe]

I have read all that yes, but the point is that its definitely not the books in the show. The show is fanfiction, stripped of any legitimacy as adaptation. Trying to sort out any semblance of logic is pointless.

Doesn't matter how many times you say it, logic isn't really relevant. Are you using it as a synonym for 'sense'?

So you've decided it's fanfiction (which, after all, is still based on the source material!). Cool. Just watch it as that then?

It does seem a bit of an odd position to take given how many centuries people have been adapting other people's works with pretty extreme changes whilst audiences happily called them adaptations throughout, of course, but if that's your take on it, why complain? Just watch it as that or don't bother? That said, I do understand the fun of complaining for complainings sake.

[Grail King]

I have read all that yes, but the point is that its definitely not the books in the show. The show is fanfiction, stripped of any legitimacy as adaptation. Trying to sort out any semblance of logic is pointless.

I don't see anyone agreeing with the logic, but it isn't total fan fiction either, and part of her show arc is from the books just changed scenery and names to protect the innocent and guilty alike.