[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIX - The season with no reason

[dogprivilege]

While it was cartoonishly done, the events of 4x08 really did set her up in a much more interesting position for s5 in the Vale than for her book counterpart. Her struggle over trusting LF and adhering to his plans would be a lot more compelling knowing she does have the Vale lords to turn to if need be. It opens up a lot more shades of grey for this seemingly crucial dynamic for both characters and would've definitely been interesting enough as the centerpiece of Sansa's s5 plotline given everything LF has really done and plans to do. They could build up to her finding out how he has hurt her family among numerous other things.

This is why I was frankly excited and relieved when the show indicated they were ready to get on with it in 4x08 rather than stalling around like George did in Feast/Dance. I do think she showed some development in those two books, but it is still very subtle and taking place in baby steps, which is nice, but I think and I at least thought the show saw that we were ready for Sansa to grow up and be more proactive and involved. The show's take on that was, to echo everyone else, lame, unfulfilling, and yes, done primarily for shock value under the guise of seeing Sansa get "empowered".

[LionAndMockingbirdFan1895]

They threw her in with the Boltons so people would give a shit about her. Who wants to watch her twiddling her thumbs with some dork in the Vale while everyone else in the story is actually getting into exciting stuff. Also the confrontation between her and Theon was interesting. The stuff at Winterfell was handled very well, I thought. Sansa's best year since season 2.

Sansa's Winterfell storyline was completely unnecessary. Sansa's best season so far has been Season 4 with all her scenes with Littlefinger and learning how to play the game of thrones.

I wish that David and Dan had kept to the books for Sansa's storyline or at least kept her in the Vale. If there were worries about adding lots of characters from the Vale, then I would just have Harry the Heir as the main addition. Sansa would go around the Vale manipulating all of the different lords with Littlefinger. It would be like an expansion of her A Feast for Crows storyline where she mostly stays in the Eyrie. They could have had included her material from her Winds of Winter chapter and the end of Season 5 would conclude with the Knights of the Vale being led by Harry the Heir on the road to Winterfell after Stannis or Roose has won. Sansa was using her sexuality near the end of Season 4. She could use it again in manipulating Harry the Heir and Littlefinger. Perhaps, also she could manipulate either Littlefinger, Harry the Heir, or Maester Colemon to kill Robin Arrryn. As Littlefinger says "The past is the past. The future is all that's worth discussing." I wonder what will happen with Theon and Sansa. Will they go to the Wall, Eyrie, or one of the Northern lords that have not been a part of the storyline thus far.

[Borodin]

Sansa's Winterfell storyline was completely unnecessary. Sansa's best season so far has been Season 4 with all her scenes with Littlefinger and learning how to play the game of thrones.

I wish that David and Dan had kept to the books for Sansa's storyline or at least kept her in the Vale. If there were worries about adding lots of characters from the Vale, then I would just have Harry the Heir as the main addition. Sansa would go around the Vale manipulating all of the different lords with Littlefinger. It would be like an expansion of her A Feast for Crows storyline where she mostly stays in the Eyrie. They could have had included her material from her Winds of Winter chapter and the end of Season 5 would conclude with the Knights of the Vale being led by Harry the Heir on the road to Winterfell after Stannis or Roose has won.

I would have loved to have watched this version so much more. It would have been great to see Sansa continue her arc, retain coherence in Littlefinger's character. Well put.

[Abelard]

For my part, the incredulity of her willingly going to WF soured everything afterward. For Sansa, WF, KL, and the Towers would be the absolute worst possible outcomes. She is aware of this, yet Littlefinger talks her into it with about 5 sentences. Even if in that moment she is aware that her worth as a human being is limited to her reproductive parts, and accepts this, wouldnt she ask that she be sold off to maybe a family that hadn't just betrayed and murdered her family? Hell, LF could have even ostensibly made that happen if he really is allied with the Tyrells. She isn't aware that Jon is leading the Nights Watch....but she knows he's there....but doesn't consider that option?

Every time she was brutalized or threatened after going to WF I returned to that initial unbelievable decision and it all just seemed so dumb and forced. I don't think LF would have actually given her the choice.....but I do think any reasonable human being would have at least forced his hand.

[A Ghost of Someone]

For my part, the incredulity of her willingly going to WF soured everything afterward. For Sansa, WF, KL, and the Towers would be the absolute worst possible outcomes. She is aware of this, yet Littlefinger talks her into it with about 5 sentences. Even if in that moment she is aware that her worth as a human being is limited to her reproductive parts, and accepts this, wouldnt she ask that she be sold off to maybe a family that hadn't just betrayed and murdered her family? Hell, LF could have even ostensibly made that happen if he really is allied with the Tyrells. She isn't aware that Jon is leading the Nights Watch....but she knows he's there....but doesn't consider that option?

Every time she was brutalized or threatened after going to WF I returned to that initial unbelievable decision and it all just seemed so dumb and forced. I don't think LF would have actually given her the choice.....but I do think any reasonable human being would have at least forced his hand.

It was so out of character and out of the blue for first Littlefinger to offer her and even worse for her to accept it. It was written by the showriters backwards from the point they wanted to have no matter what and that was Sansa was to marry Ramsay and have a dramatic and traumatic rape scene, that is it, every thing written to get her there was written backwards to fill in the gaps and it was horrendously done. High schoolers could have written a better story to and from the rape if they wanted it that damn bad. the show lost all continuity when they did this. The Whole fucking world knows it.

[Colonel Green]

She isn't aware that Jon is leading the Nights Watch....but she knows he's there....but doesn't consider that option?

TV!Sansa is never suggested to have gone to Winterfell for lack of other options. She had the friendship of the Vale lords, and supposedly (according to the writers) made a real choice to go to Winterfell to take back her home.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

TV!Sansa is never suggested to have gone to Winterfell for lack of other options. She had the friendship of the Vale lords, and supposedly (according to the writers) made a real choice to go to Winterfell to take back her home.

Which makes it worse. She does not need to be there if Stannis won. If the Boltons won, well, why does she want to give legitimacy to the Boltons?

[Abelard]

TV!Sansa is never suggested to have gone to Winterfell for lack of other options. She had the friendship of the Vale lords, and supposedly (according to the writers) made a real choice to go to Winterfell to take back her home.

No I get the reasoning for the writers, it still just doesn't make a damn bit of sense. Unless of course as many have asserted, the plot was always directed rape at the hands of Ramsay.

[Mladen]

No I get the reasoning for the writers, it still just doesn't make a damn bit of sense. Unless of course as many have asserted, the plot was always directed rape at the hands of Ramsay.

I would understand the writers, if they actually did something. If they included Northern Lords, if they wanted Battle of Ice to have a bit more meat to it, if they wanted Ghost of WF, chaos inside the walls of the castle... You know, if they wanted to tell Winterfell plot from ADWD. If they had done that, I doubt many people would have objected. Even with the rape scene, in that case, it would still have some point. This way, it was senseless. It was just about rape, just about things that didn't work. Perhaps they had the idea, but the execution was terrible.

[Borodin]

Writers said in interviews that long before Season 5 they were salivating over the idea of giving Jeyne Poole's ordeal with sexual violence to Sansa. They didn't seem to care about the trainwreck it would cause for every other Winterfell/Vale plot.

[rosehustle1]

They also had the potential of all the Heart tree scenes with Theon that I'm sure the actor could've pulled off fantastically. It wasn't just Sansa who was ruined this season, there's also a lot of wasted potential with Theon.

I agree that the Vale plotline in the books is a bit boring and quite hard to portray on television. But given the massive changes they made anyway, what's to stop them from making the Vale more interesting? Since they ditched the Riverlands plot, they could've had Edmure Tully and/or the Blackfish arriving in the Vale and give them some interactions with Sansa. With the removal of LSH, they could've let Sansa exact some revenge on the Freys. Not as undead Sansa but just let her order Blackfish/Edmure/Vale soldiers to do what LSH does in the books (but less blunt/insane of course).

Out of the many problems with the show, my main issue with it is that D&D don't understand that you have to give your audience hope. Sansa&Theon jumping off Winterfell after their horrible character arcs does not fall under this category.

It's okay if a lot of bad things happen to (semi)good people but there always needs to remain hope. Having Sansa plotting her revenge and learning the game in the Vale would've been great to counter FTW, Stannis' failure, the mess in KL etc.

I agree they could have made the Vale interesting. When they really want to do something they do it. They never saw the value in Sansa's arc in AFFC. They barely see the value in her as a character based on all they have omitted from her characterization.

[Eltharion21]

Considering the quality writing in season 5 , i can imagine that in season 6 will be like they limp to the wall to get help from Jon but end up either with Davos or Asha on boat and then Euron/Victarion ends up capturing them. And then they can merge her role with that of the Dusky woman for budget reasons ....

[Abelard]

I would understand the writers, if they actually did something. If they included Northern Lords, if they wanted Battle of Ice to have a bit more meat to it, if they wanted Ghost of WF, chaos inside the walls of the castle... You know, if they wanted to tell Winterfell plot from ADWD. If they had done that, I doubt many people would have objected. Even with the rape scene, in that case, it would still have some point. This way, it was senseless. It was just about rape, just about things that didn't work. Perhaps they had the idea, but the execution was terrible.

The northern lords sure, but even Stannis, right? It wouldn't have worked out much better long term, but at the time even Stannis is a more sensible decision. At war with the Boltons, was supported (albeit briefly) by Ned, is in possession of an army that would certainly seem to be a better means of retaking Winterfell than marrying into the Boltons.....

[Buffy13]

What the heck is going to happen at the Wall next season?

If Sansa shows up there looking for Jon, she may be raped again….after all Gilly, was almost raped and Sam almost killed. With Jon gone they will do as they want, why would they show Sansa any kindness. Is the show going to pretend the Wall isn’t dangerous for her and do what they did for the other character and marry her to a wildling….or just torture and kill her? Same could be said for the Red Witch.
I wouldn’t want to watch a season of crabby Nights Watch members piss and moan all season about what to do with the wildlings and then have them terrorize Sansa when she finally reaches the wall with Theon. I’m going to hope the wildlings leave the wall and make south to find homes, leave the Nights Watch deal with the White Walkers, I’ll be in Dorne with the Martells enjoying the sunshine.

Changing Sansa's storyline this season was reckless. I would have prefered reduced appearances like Bryn to this disaster.

[arieswmn]

Could be that she was just wanting death now rather than being braver or stronger. That's probably the case judging by what she said.

Maybe she does want to die. BUT I think it's also possible that she now knows that begging for mercy is counterproductive with sadists like Ramsay and Joffrey and Myranda. That's what they expect. Any display of emotion just feeds the vicious torture cycle.

I think Sansa has grown up and gotten a lot smarter. I would never go so far as to say this season was "empowering," but there was character development.

[Pies are coming]

What the heck is going to happen at the Wall next season?

If Sansa shows up there looking for Jon, she may be raped again….after all Gilly, was almost raped and Sam almost killed. With Jon gone they will do as they want, why would they show Sansa any kindness. Is the show going to pretend the Wall isn’t dangerous for her and do what they did for the other character and marry her to a wildling….or just torture and kill her? Same could be said for the Red Witch.

I wouldn’t want to watch a season of crabby Nights Watch members piss and moan all season about what to do with the wildlings and then have them terrorize Sansa when she finally reaches the wall with Theon. I’m going to hope the wildlings leave the wall and make south to find homes, leave the Nights Watch deal with the White Walkers, I’ll be in Dorne with the Martells enjoying the sunshine.

Changing Sansa's storyline this season was reckless. I would have prefered reduced appearances like Bryn to this disaster.

Well, she gets to the Wall, only to see the Night King break through. And since human marriages aren't legal under the White Walker legal framework, they marry, of course.

[CerseiStark]

I think Sansa has grown up and gotten a lot smarter. I would never go so far as to say this season was "empowering," but there was character development.

And what is hilarious is all the folks suddenly thinking that somehow this character will never align again with the book character. We simply don't know what the post-Vale plan was for Sansa, or what her end-game position is - and until we know those things, it's impossible to judge how much this will affect anything at all. Yes, it may be a different path - but maybe George was just going to have her sitting at the Vale for an entire book again, like Jamie just hanging out in the woods for a book. Just like Melisandre showing back up at Castle Black at the very end - she may have gone another route, but she got where she needed to be when she needed to be there.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

We simply do not know what Martin intends to write. But I am quite sure Sansa won't be pregnant in the show if she isn't in the books. And a small hint might be that in this first outline of the story by Martin Sansa indeed gets pregnant by "the enemy".

I simply tried to help out concerning the question if Sansa could be pregnant after that jump and when she might find out. But I don't know more than you and you don't know more than I do. And I will wait and see, and since I believe we will get TWOW before the next series there is no point in getting heated about this topic.

I do agree with you, TWOW will come out before season 6. Do you care to make a bet, though? I bet Sansa doesn't marry Ramsay Bolton. And she can't be pregnant with an enemy if she's not actually near one. I don't think she's pregnant in the books as well. And no, I don't think, and in this I agree with most other readers, Sansa will be raped in George's books.

And I haven't seen anyone use the original outline as a hint of a future Arya/Tyrion relationship. If we're going to use the original outline as a guideline, then we should do it fairly. There's the same chance for Sansa to be pregnant with the enemy as to a Tyrion/Jon/Arya romantic triangle. Both are in the outline, after all.

[rosehustle1]

Maybe she does want to die. BUT I think it's also possible that she now knows that begging for mercy is counterproductive with sadists like Ramsay and Joffrey and Myranda. That's what they expect. Any display of emotion just feeds the vicious torture cycle.

I think Sansa has grown up and gotten a lot smarter. I would never go so far as to say this season was "empowering," but there was character development.

But how was marrying Ramsay and giving the Boltons even more of a claim to her ancestral seat smart? How was becoming legal property to Ramsay smart?

[A Ghost of Someone]

But how was marrying Ramsay and giving the Boltons even more of a claim to her ancestral seat smart? How was becoming legal property to Ramsay smart?

It was'nt and i do not think there is anything they can do in season 6 to make it any more logical than they already failed to do. I will not forget this rediculousness.