[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIX - The season with no reason

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Rickon ending in power as heir to the North too neat??? He has the direwolf after all!

This is the only reason the character of Rickon has ever been invented by Martin!

Sansa as Rickon's warden for a few years and then retiring to being Auntie Sansa would be rather anticlimactic. Apart from that she would be just as clueless in her job as Secretary of Commerce, Finance and Agriculture as little Rickon. If the situation were only remotely realistic the people in the North could only hope that some adult takes over to prevent starvation after that global ecological catastrophe. And not two kids.

And Martin really seems to care for the Rickon mystery. Show Osha is great, Davos is even better, so the show would take Rickon's storyline even more seriously than the books.

That's again, one of those questions we have come to the conclusion that only Winds might answer us. I'm not jumping off the Rickon wagon, but his direwolf is called shaggydog. Seriously.

And as for Sansa's role as regent, that's not that much anticlimactic. Think about it - Alayne's been playing with her ability to take care of Robin and her journey is about learning how to play the political game. She orchestrates the Winged Knights, she seduces Harry 'The Heir'. She's a force to be reckon with, Of course, this is not the end of the story. We don't know what will happen. But the author did say that Sansa's journey is about learning not to be a piece, but a player, with her own goals and moving other pieces around. And she has her wits, the same as Littlefinger has.

And about Martin "caring" about Rickon, that's still to see. I do think Rickon will play a role, as in most likely will make LF's plans fail (I'm betting Sansa discovers he's alive, turns the Vale Lords against LF and "slays" him in Winterfell), but that's a part of imagination. So far, Rickon's only really wanted in the North because he's the only one left alive and the heir, but he's on Skagos. Mel also says Davos will again serve the Lord of Light. I'm not sure how, but I'm betting it has to do with his current mission.

[rosehustle1]

If Rickon was too wild and unable to really be a lord could they make Sansa the heir? I mean, she could marry a second son and he could change his last name to Stark then all of their children would still be Starks. She could be the real power behind Winterfell.

[Woman of War]

That's again, one of those questions we have come to the conclusion that only Winds might answer us. I'm not jumping off the Rickon wagon, but his direwolf is called shaggydog. Seriously.

And as for Sansa's role as regent, that's not that much anticlimactic. Think about it - Alayne's been playing with her ability to take care of Robin and her journey is about learning how to play the political game. She orchestrates the Winged Knights, she seduces Harry 'The Heir'. She's a force to be reckon with, Of course, this is not the end of the story. We don't know what will happen. But the author did say that Sansa's journey is about learning not to be a piece, but a player, with her own goals and moving other pieces around. And she has her wits, the same as Littlefinger has.

And about Martin "caring" about Rickon, that's still to see. I do think Rickon will play a role, as in most likely will make LF's plans fail (I'm betting Sansa discovers he's alive, turns the Vale Lords against LF and "slays" him in Winterfell), but that's a part of imagination. So far, Rickon's only really wanted in the North because he's the only one left alive and the heir, but he's on Skagos. Mel also says Davos will again serve the Lord of Light. I'm not sure how, but I'm betting it has to do with his current mission.

Bran as temporary Lord of Winterfell only worked because Maester Luwin as well meaning and qualified advisor sat right beside him. Sansa as management wunderkind? No!

Yes, I know some fans want Sansa to be "a force to reckon with". But, realistically, she is not qualified, at least not in the fields successful management of an economic crisis demands. She may be a diplomatic talent, able to support a ruler, but she could do no more than motivate those who have the qualifications. The old Gods help the smallfolk if Sansa has to organize agricultural problems! Smiling is just not enough.We already had one very young ruler who failed, Robb.

Compare Sansa to Missandei, the girl highly educated at ten, compare her to Dany, who is older, with her determined will, or to Jon who definitely has competences. And even here we may see variations of young rulers not learning on the job but failing.

Of course Rickon without Sansa would be even worse than Sansa as ruler.

Sansa, while being over sixteen in the show would still need a quasi regent as regent. We should rather reflect storywise who might that be if Sansa stays in the North at all, the Blackfish? Or Jon? Davos? Fanfiction just as Sansa being ruler of WF.

[rosehustle1]

Bran as temporary Lord of Winterfell only worked because Maester Luwin as well meaning and qualified advisor sat right beside him. Sansa as management wunderkind? No!

Yes, I know some fans want Sansa to be "a force to reckon with". But, realistically, she is not qualified, at least not in the fields successful management of an economic crisis demands. She may be a diplomatic talent, able to support a ruler, but she could do no more than motivate those who have the qualifications. The old Gods help the smallfolk if Sansa has to organize agricultural problems! Smiling is just not enough.We already had one very young ruler who failed, Robb.

Compare Sansa to Missandei, the girl highly educated at ten, compare her to Dany, who is older, with her determined will, or to Jon who definitely has competences. And even here we may see variations of young rulers not learning on the job but failing.

Of course Rickon without Sansa would be even worse than Sansa as ruler.

Sansa, while being over sixteen in the show would still need a quasi regent as regent. We should rather reflect storywise who might that be if Sansa stays in the North at all, the Blackfish? Or Jon? Davos? Fanfiction just as Sansa being ruler of WF.

Well, you don't know how far Sansa will come into her own by the last book. I think that the characters in the story and the readers often underestimate her, and I think Martin has created her character to be seen in that way for a reason. I definitely think she may surprise everyone with her abilities in the end.

[Woman of War]

Well, you don't know how far Sansa will come into her own by the last book. I think that the characters in the story and the readers often underestimate her, and I think Martin has created her character to be seen in that way for a reason. I definitely think she may surprise everyone with her abilities in the end.

Well, of course I do not know anything.

And Sansa may surprise everyone, I guess she will, probably with unexpected courage, be it in doing the right thing when it counts or being dark and dangerous. Though I am not sure if Sansa will turn dark, the show seems to keep her as morally positive character, at least in the end.

But I doubt that Sansa can surprise anyone with things she never learned and has never tried to do: understanding the more down to earth parts of administration and ruling. She would be a helpless victim to those trying to take advantage of Northern peasants via contracts, she could hardly defend the rights of merchants and their trade, not knowing how trade works. Finally she might be forced to send armed troops against her own people because someone more clever and greedy started seed grain speculation with Northern harvests and she did not understand the contracts she herself signed....... And so on, being well intentioned may simply be not enough and that is what Martin has told us several times.

Only the story will be over when we see the South eating the sparse Northern grain and we will never hear about it. Fairy tale ending, we never see the royal couple fight and we never see the new ruler rule. All is well, and thank you very much.

[voodooqueen126]

That's again, one of those questions we have come to the conclusion that only Winds might answer us. I'm not jumping off the Rickon wagon, but his direwolf is called shaggydog. Seriously.

And as for Sansa's role as regent, that's not that much anticlimactic. Think about it - Alayne's been playing with her ability to take care of Robin and her journey is about learning how to play the political game. She orchestrates the Winged Knights, she seduces Harry 'The Heir'. She's a force to be reckon with, Of course, this is not the end of the story. We don't know what will happen. But the author did say that Sansa's journey is about learning not to be a piece, but a player, with her own goals and moving other pieces around. And she has her wits, the same as Littlefinger has.

And about Martin "caring" about Rickon, that's still to see. I do think Rickon will play a role, as in most likely will make LF's plans fail (I'm betting Sansa discovers he's alive, turns the Vale Lords against LF and "slays" him in Winterfell), but that's a part of imagination. So far, Rickon's only really wanted in the North because he's the only one left alive and the heir, but he's on Skagos. Mel also says Davos will again serve the Lord of Light. I'm not sure how, but I'm betting it has to do with his current mission.

I think there is a difference between a someone who can skillfully maneouver her way into power and someone who can actually govern a country.

Think of Empress Dowager Cixi, she was very good at making her son Emperor and herself Empress Dowager, then keeping in power with a succession of nephews etc... But she was terrible for China because she had no life experience outside the harem of the forbidden city and despite being a highly intelligent woman she spent the money for the modern chinese navy on a marble boat in the Summer Palace.

From what I understand the sultanate of women in the Ottoman empire had similar issues (but then after the introduction of the Kafes, all the Ottoman sultans lacked life experience).

So whilst I think the idea that Rickon is this amazing badass, whose so kool and of the north with his wild direwolf, is actually very silly because his childhood bares more similarities to that of Ivan the Terrible than any other famous leader.

So whilst I want/would love Sansa to become regent of Winterfell (for life if possible, given how incompetent Rickon would actually be* I think scheming Littlefinger is probably not the best teacher, maybe an internship with a family of Gulltown merchants would make her better suited to this role.

*One of the beauties of ASOIAF is that it doesn't give it's heroes passes for things that people wouldn't survive in the real world. Well if real world human brains and child development are at play then Rickon should be worse than Joffrey)

[Colonel Green]

But I doubt that Sansa can surprise anyone with things she never learned and has never tried to do: understanding the more down to earth parts of administration and ruling. She would be a helpless victim to those trying to take advantage of Northern peasants via contracts, she could hardly defend the rights of merchants and their trade, not knowing how trade works. Finally she might be forced to send armed troops against her own people because someone more clever and greedy started seed grain speculation with Northern harvests and she did not understand the contracts she herself signed....... And so on, being well intentioned may simply be not enough and that is what Martin has told us several times.

Only the story will be over when we see the South eating the sparse Northern grain and we will never hear about it. Fairy tale ending, we never see the royal couple fight and we never see the new ruler rule. All is well, and thank you very much.

I don't think any of the characters in the story are spending much time studying mercantile practises.

I have no idea what Sansa will end up doing, but regency doesn't mean you singlehandedly run the whole government. You have advisors for things you aren't personally familiar with. The key is to identify qualified and loyal people.

[Woman of War]

Any ruler needs advisors but she or he should at least be able to understand and to control their advisors, to ask the right questions and not be completely dependent on them, thus being easy prey for manipulators.

[Colonel Green]

Any ruler needs advisors but she or he should at least be able to understand and to control their advisors, to ask the right questions and not be completely dependent on them, thus being easy prey for manipulators.

In the books, Sansa is involved in running the Eyrie, and we see things like the grain supply being discussed as a political tool. So issues of management are hardly foreign to her story. Indeed, those sorts of things would have been part of her education at Winterfell to begin with.

That said, again, none of the characters in the books are spending their time learning commercial law.

[Winter's Cold]

The only Stark who is qualified to run winterfell is Jon. I doubt Sansa will rule in the north considering she lacks a direwolf. The Northmen only respect strength.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

The only Stark who is qualified to run winterfell is Jon. I doubt Sansa will rule in the north considering she lacks a direwolf. The Northmen only respect strength.

I'm having doubts about his leadership skills from the grave. Jon died. He might return, but he died. He's not going to end alive.

Moreover, Rickon has a direwolf, and so does Arya and Bran.

[voodooqueen126]

The only Stark who is qualified to run winterfell is Jon. I doubt Sansa will rule in the north considering she lacks a direwolf. The Northmen only respect strength.

Then the Northmen are stupid. If they continue on 'only respecting strength' then they will end up in a worse position than Tsarist Russia.

Fortunately the Northmen are not as stupid as you think, since most Stark Lords have been without direwolves.

[Winter's Cold]

Then the Northmen are stupid. If they continue on 'only respecting strength' then they will end up in a worse position than Tsarist Russia.

Fortunately the Northmen are not as stupid as you think, since most Stark Lords have been without direwolves.

Well there has never been a ruling Northern Queen in all of its history. The most successful Northern rulers have either had strong magical powers like Bran, the ruthlessness of Arya or the calm diligence of Jon. Either way they don't follow people who are followers like Sansa.