[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIX - The season with no reason

[Colonel Green]

Does it exonerate him?

What I mean is, the writers aren't playing it like he was deliberately putting her in extreme danger that she didn't know about. Nothing about the way they've written it suggests that we're meant to see this as the moment that turns her against him (aside from which, this would be a really lame substitute for whatever does that in the books, seeing as that would more likely have to do with Littlefinger's actual crimes against her and her family).

Now, does it actually make sense that she'd buy his explanations, potentially resume their alliance? Probably not, but that's a separate matter from what the writers intend.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Littlefinger never promised her that. She asked him what would happen if Stannis lost, and he said then in that case the plan was to manipulate the Boltons.

Now, not only did we never see Sansa try to do that, but Littlefinger was obviously wrong about Ramsay. But if this plot was meant to be the breach in Sansa and Littlefinger's alliance, the writers wouldn't have gone out of their way to exonerate him of any wrongdoing in the matter.

Yes, you are right but what stood out in what she saw was what I should have said. Stannis, according to Littlefinger had the larger army and what Sansa saw was Stannis seemingly outnumbered 3-1 at minimal. Yes, battles are never certain. Agincourt comes to mind, first and foremost.

Regarding the writers exoneration of LF not knowing what he was getting into with Sansa may be Karma as to how Ned did not know what he was getting into when asking and receiving assurance from LF that the Gold Cloaks were behind him when he tried to take the Throne and hold it for Stannis, the True King. It would be poetic justice if Sansa never forgives LF despite him, according to the writers seemingly not intending for Sansa to endure the harm that she did.

[Grail King]

What kills me about the whole Sansa story this year is that apparently the showriters either did not carefully read out how this bullshit plays and realize how nonesensical it is and makes Sansa out to be a complete dumbass or they simply do not care for her character but do for the actress's sex appeal. However, if looking more carefully, the show actually wrote Sansa into a trap that realistically, she could not get out of once she left the safety of Royce's tronghold , Runestone. There is however, an opportunity to make her the bane to one of the most evil characters who has caused immense damage to her family, Westeros and now her, Littlefinger.

The inside the episode of "Unbowed, Unbent and Unbroken" seemingly, showed how really ignorant or determined to rape Sansa, Bryan Cogman and D&D's are and have an intriguing mindset in regards to Sophie Turner as Sansa or Sansa as played by Sophie Turner. It strikes me as potentially more disturbing towards the actress. Also, in particular the twitter argument with Angry GOT Fan got into with Cogman actually caught Cogman in the rape narrative by calling him out on it.

When the showriter Cogman claims that Sansa "made a choice" to marry Ramsay by going to Winterfell, she was at Moat Caillin, surrounded by Littlefinger, 8 knights of the Vale who are "paid very well by Littlefinger" and has no lady retainers, no sworn swords of her own etc.. Littlefinger says she has a choice but she really does not, does she? In the previous episode, Brienne approaches her in the Inn but she is outnumbered and yes, Sansa refuses her but that was logic and it was noticeable that she does not want to stay with Littlefinger but she feared for Brienne a little bit. She had a choice but not really, It was not really until Moat Caillin that she realized that she was the betrothed and that she was actually more of a transported prisoner than a willing bride. She put on her courtessy armor and mounted the horse and road on. She had no choice.

As she passed Moat Caillin and arrived in Winterfell, she is clinging to Littlefinger metaphorically because he is "the man/devil she knows". She is quietly desperate and is hoping, as she has nothing else, that Littlefinger's desire for her will not let her be "harmed" by the Boltons. Littlefinger never tells her how to conduct herself on her wedding night as he seems to be trying to convince her that the wedding will not happen as Stannis has a huge army and will wipe the Boltons out and he, Baelish will align the Vale with him. Sansa is trapped and has no choice.

When Littlefinger approaches her in the Crypts and she realizes he is leaving her there, she is scared but is also feeling betrayed a little. He tells her that Stannis will be there soon and not to worry. She throws out "the next time we meet, I will be a married woman" and Littlefinger just grins and backs away and turns then walks away. It was Sansa's way of saying, "I know you want me, are you going to let some other man have me?"

She is trapped without any possible friends except one little old lady and she really has no choice here either. She comforts herself in what little she has and that is "Littlefinger wants me and would not leave me here if he thought something bad would happen to me". Ignorance is bliss.

The Bolton family dinner should have thrown up red flags galore and clearly she had to know the wedding is coming either on the next day or in a few days but does not light the candle or anything, Reek suffering seemed disturbing but also, she may have liked that he was hurt because of what she thought he did to her brothers and what he actually did do by betraying her family and taking Winterfell, setting this all in motion. Ignorance is Bliss.<SNIP>

This story line, if it is meant to make any sense at all, should be about the complete and utter betrayal of Sansa by Littlefinger, while, in the course of it playing out, helped get Theon out of a funk (he deserved every damn thing he had done to him by Ramsay and more, think about it) and revealed to Sansa (for what purpose) that she has 3 brothers alive after all (Jon's being alive should not be a surprise but LC of the Night's Watch was). Rickon and Bran are hiding with people who can and are most likely preparing for action on their behalf so Sansa's revelation of their status does nothing to advance them at all. They are telling us that Littlefinger was ignorant on all accounts and I hope they realized that whether that is true or not, Sansa must never trust him again and indeed, this is the path to bring down Littlefinger and it needs to be done next season and it must be by Sansa's own hand. Anything else would be unacceptable after what they did to her and us this season.

The bottom line, as disturbing as Sansa story was, if they do not want it to be defined as they wanted her to be "raped" by Ramsay alone, then as Sansa survives, let her became a hard core hater of Littlefinger as well as looking for her brothers to advise of what is going on inside Winterfell with the Bolton clan. Sansa can have a purpose before her character ends on this show and it needs to be the death and destruction of Littlefinger. Her brother and the North will take down the Boltons. Baelish needs to be her target. If anything other than that happens, then her story really was about the rape afterall.

I agree with almost everything, except why she didn't light the candle: In episode 5 - after the old lady left they cut to Sansa walking to the tower as she is looking it over Myranda shows up ( she is following her ) maybe Ramsey told her to keep an eye on his future wife, next is Myranda and her surprise in the kennel where Sansa finds Theon, the next scene is Theon with Ramsey getting ready for the dinner and Theon is telling Ramsey that Sansa saw him, either Ramsey set this whole charade up to test Theon or he ordered Myranda to shadow Sansa; she had no oppurtunity after that to do a candle and Sansa may not have felt threaten at that point.

The next scene is the dinner scene where Ramsey let Sansa know that he knows Theon and her saw each other, and Ramsey begins to humiliate Reek and Sansa pointedly asked why he is doing what he is doing to Theon where we get the "confession"

Episode 6: is the meeting with Myranda and Sansa hearing info about Ramsey and other girls, Sansa putting Myranda in her place, Sansa putting her face in her hands knowing she is now in trouble but can't get out of it at this time, we then segue to the wedding and rape, she has no opportunity to do anything at this point still.

Episode 7: ( I'm using 1 episode = 1 week of time for clarity of time ) We see Sansa bruised and crying, Theon comes in she is scared and panicking ( normal for her situation ) she ask Theon for help, he insist he is Reek not Theon, she continues to remind him he is Theon Greyjoy she tells him that there are friends who can get her out and she puts a candle in his hands and ask him to promise he put the candle in the window, instead he goes straight to Ramsey, my guess on why she did not try to overpower Theon here is maybe too many people in the castle and they may know Ramsey is keeping her under lock and key; the next scene Sansa is escorted to her husband as he is talking to her she spies a corkscrew and picks it up and hides it from Ramsey, she reminds Ramsey that Walda's children will come before him as they are natural born to Roose; she then learns about Jon becoming LC of the NW first bit of good news she has heard since the wedding.

Ramsey then shows her the flayed woman and taunts his wife with the candle sends her back to her room under guard.

Episode 9 no Winterfell , no Sansa.

Episode 10: Stannis marches on to Winterfell, they cut to inside WF people are feverishly getting ready for battle, they cut to Sansa's room she is dressed for escape and uses the corkscrew to open her door she drops the corkscrew why??? she is walking through the courtyard candle in hand, they cut to Pod who sees Stannis marching to WF he runs to Brienne who is watching the tower they talk she gives a last look at the tower and they cut to Sansa approaching the tower, back to Brienne one last look no candle she leaves followed by Pod who takes his axe as he leaves the candle is lit, cut to Stannis and Bolton army, cut to Sansa in the window ( I think this is a continuity error ) she is watching the battle with the candle ( I think it's suppose to be on the other side of the tower ) cut back to Stannis he says we got no chance Sansa sees Stannis can't win she gets out of the tower .... Breinne kills Stannis, Ramsy heads back to WF and his lonely wife,Sansa heads back runs into Myranda.

Long Story short:

Sansa did not get the corkscrew until episode 7 was locked up in her room until episode 10, in episode 8 she gets the info on her brothers and maybe this is why she did not attack him, anyway as long as Ramsey is in WF with the army she is sorta stuck since Theon still refuses to help her, and Sansa has shown before in KL she is very cautious to leave a place unless it's safe to do so or a better gig comes along.

My one question now : will Brienne tell her Arya is alive? since it was sorta stupid not to let Arya know her sister is alive.

[Grail King]

Littlefinger never promised her that. She asked him what would happen if Stannis lost, and he said then in that case the plan was to manipulate the Boltons.

Now, not only did we never see Sansa try to do that, but Littlefinger was obviously wrong about Ramsay. But if this plot was meant to be the breach in Sansa and Littlefinger's alliance, the writers wouldn't have gone out of their way to exonerate him of any wrongdoing in the matter.

It's seems implied,

He tells Sansa she won't be with the Boltons for long Sansa ask him "how do you know" his reply is Stannis has to take WF before going south and she replied "you don't know that", which his reply was "I do" and states that when he frees the North of the Boltons, the North will rally to Stannis cause; Sansa then ask LF if he thinks Stannis can defeat the Boltons, where LF replys Stannis has a larger army, he's a better commander, then " a betting man would put his money on Stannis, as it happens I am a betting man" Sansa ask "and if your right" his reply is "Stannis takes WF he rescues you from the most despised family in the North grateful for your late fathers courage’s support for his claim he names you Wardeness of the North " Sansa is surprised he tells her ( another continuity error ) she is the last surviving Stark he needs you " Sansa ask and what if your wrong,what if the Boltons defeat Stannis his reply was you will take this Bolton boy and make him yours", Sansa replied " I don't know how to do that" he says of course you do, he's already fallen for you, Sansa states Roose frightens her and LF agrees he's a dangerous man, "but even dangerous men can be out maneuver and she learned from the very best" he kissed her and tells her the North will be hers, ask her if she believes him she nods then kissed her ( yeah she did not like it ) Sansa remarks she will be wedded by the time he returns he smirks then leaves.

He definitely sold her a bill of goods, I think he and Roose have been talking more then marriage, Roose probably told most of his knowledge on Stannis to LF, but he kept that to himself, and he has a real inflated opinion of himself, I think the "but even dangerous men can be out maneuver and she learned from the very best" may ( and I hope ) come back and bite him in the ass.

Sansa point blank tells him she doesn't know how to seduce Ramsy and he through lack of knowledge ( per D & D ) tells her Ramsy is smitten by her, all BS it should be in Sansa's eyes, the one spot in this whole scenario he's telling a truth she's going to read it as a bold face lie.

[rosehustle1]

I agree with almost everything, except why she didn't light the candle: In episode 5 - after the old lady left they cut to Sansa walking to the tower as she is looking it over Myranda shows up ( she is following her ) maybe Ramsey told her to keep an eye on his future wife, next is Myranda and her surprise in the kennel where Sansa finds Theon, the next scene is Theon with Ramsey getting ready for the dinner and Theon is telling Ramsey that Sansa saw him, either Ramsey set this whole charade up to test Theon or he ordered Myranda to shadow Sansa; she had no oppurtunity after that to do a candle and Sansa may not have felt threaten at that point.

The next scene is the dinner scene where Ramsey let Sansa know that he knows Theon and her saw each other, and Ramsey begins to humiliate Reek and Sansa pointedly asked why he is doing what he is doing to Theon where we get the "confession"

Episode 6: is the meeting with Myranda and Sansa hearing info about Ramsey and other girls, Sansa putting Myranda in her place, Sansa putting her face in her hands knowing she is now in trouble but can't get out of it at this time, we then segue to the wedding and rape, she has no opportunity to do anything at this point still.

Episode 7: ( I'm using 1 episode = 1 week of time for clarity of time ) We see Sansa bruised and crying, Theon comes in she is scared and panicking ( normal for her situation ) she ask Theon for help, he insist he is Reek not Theon, she continues to remind him he is Theon Greyjoy she tells him that there are friends who can get her out and she puts a candle in his hands and ask him to promise he put the candle in the window, instead he goes straight to Ramsey, my guess on why she did not try to overpower Theon here is maybe too many people in the castle and they may know Ramsey is keeping her under lock and key; the next scene Sansa is escorted to her husband as he is talking to her she spies a corkscrew and picks it up and hides it from Ramsey, she reminds Ramsey that Walda's children will come before him as they are natural born to Roose; she then learns about Jon becoming LC of the NW first bit of good news she has heard since the wedding.

Ramsey then shows her the flayed woman and taunts his wife with the candle sends her back to her room under guard.

Episode 9 no Winterfell , no Sansa.

Episode 10: Stannis marches on to Winterfell, they cut to inside WF people are feverishly getting ready for battle, they cut to Sansa's room she is dressed for escape and uses the corkscrew to open her door she drops the corkscrew why??? she is walking through the courtyard candle in hand, they cut to Pod who sees Stannis marching to WF he runs to Brienne who is watching the tower they talk she gives a last look at the tower and they cut to Sansa approaching the tower, back to Brienne one last look no candle she leaves followed by Pod who takes his axe as he leaves the candle is lit, cut to Stannis and Bolton army, cut to Sansa in the window ( I think this is a continuity error ) she is watching the battle with the candle ( I think it's suppose to be on the other side of the tower ) cut back to Stannis he says we got no chance Sansa sees Stannis can't win she gets out of the tower .... Breinne kills Stannis, Ramsy heads back to WF and his lonely wife,Sansa heads back runs into Myranda.

Long Story short:

Sansa did not get the corkscrew until episode 7 was locked up in her room until episode 10, in episode 8 she gets the info on her brothers and maybe this is why she did not attack him, anyway as long as Ramsey is in WF with the army she is sorta stuck since Theon still refuses to help her, and Sansa has shown before in KL she is very cautious to leave a place unless it's safe to do so or a better gig comes along.

My one question now : will Brienne tell her Arya is alive? since it was sorta stupid not to let Arya know her sister is alive.

I actually think it was wise for Brienne to keep quiet about Arya being alive. It would have been really dangerous to let Sansa know this with Littlefinger sitting there. I think if Sansa had been able to talk with Brienne in private then she would have told Sansa about Arya.

[Grail King]

I actually think it was wise for Brienne to keep quiet about Arya being alive. It would have been really dangerous to let Sansa know this with Littlefinger sitting there. I think if Sansa had been able to talk with Brienne in private then she would have told Sansa about Arya.

I wasn't talking about in front of LF, I'm talking about if she and Pod save Sansa and Theon, there was no real danger of letting Arya know even with the Hound there as he would have protected her too.

[rosehustle1]

I wasn't talking about in front of LF, I'm talking about if she and Pod save Sansa and Theon, there was no real danger of letting Arya know even with the Hound there as he would have protected her too.

Oh, okay. I thought you were talking of that scene at the inn a few episodes back.

[Grail King]

Oh, okay. I thought you were talking of that scene at the inn a few episodes back.

NP, one of the few things Brienne did right, she should had listen to Pod then she wouldn't be on LF radar.

[voodooqueen126]

I am not speaking about my expectations, I am talking what a failure this season is. I am not expecting Sansa to be a saint, but given how she behaved throughout books, I would expect her not to be rather OK with what happened to Theon. There is a difference size of Pacific between those two.

Sansa was a supporting cast this year to what was supposedly her arc. Again, she influenced nothing and no one. Everything happened in spite of her, which is why Sansa could have never and should have never been replacement for Jeyne.

It's true that Book!Sansa tried to push Joffrey off the battlements, and wanted to give Harrenhall to Walder Frey, but she took no pleasure from watching Joffrey-who had sadistically beaten her and cut off her father's head- die scratching his own throat.

So I think there is a huge difference between wanting someone dead, and wanting someone tortured to and humiliated the way Theon-Reek was.

So that's the difference between Book Sansa (gets angry in the privacy of her own mind or covers up her real rage with a joke about Walder Frey to Petyr) to "I wish I could do to you Theon what Ramsay did to you"

[voodooqueen126]

I have a feeling the rape and how it affected her will never be brought up again. The most we may get is her wanting revenge because of what Ramsay did but nothing else. My biggest problem with this whole scenario is that D and D thought that Sansa couldn't possibly be angry enough to want revenge based on the already established fact that this family betrayed and murdered hers, or that she was living with and made to marry into the other family that was behind her father's death prior to even coming back to Winterfell. This girl has already been through a hell of a lot of trauma that could motivate her to want to take back her home and end the Boltons, Freys, and Lannisters.

I think it's based on the notion that women are irrational, and incapable of abstract/big picture thinking. That women have to experience say, rape personally or years of abuse before they will learn...

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I think it's based on the notion that women are irrational, and incapable of abstract/big picture thinking. That women have to experience say, rape personally or years of abuse before they will learn...

At least book!Sansa doesn't need a rape to be "empowered". She's already a powerhouse by herself, no rape in her childhood home by the man that helped to murder her family needed.

[voodooqueen126]

At least book!Sansa doesn't need a rape to be "empowered". She's already a powerhouse by herself, no rape in her childhood home by the man that helped to murder her family needed.

Amazing. George can create female characters that are smarter than chimpanzees...

Julia Martell has this post about Catelyn-how Show Catelyn lacks the intelligence of book Catelyn-so given that women were dehumanised can it surprise us the way that the show treats rape.

[A Ghost of Someone]

At least book!Sansa doesn't need a rape to be "empowered". She's already a powerhouse by herself, no rape in her childhood home by the man that helped to murder her family needed.

I wonder if any of Sophie's family and friends have read the books and sample chapters and if so, have told her that apparently, they had your character raped for the scene and that they have somewhat degraded her character to do it?

[Woman of War]

I wonder if any of Sophie's family and friends have read the books and sample chapters and if so, have told her that apparently, they had your character raped for the scene and that they have somewhat degraded her character to do it?

Rape is always degrading, there is no way around it. But it is not degrading for the actress, it is degrading for the character she plays. And for the character who rapes.

And I guess that none of Anna Gunn's relatives has read the script of the episode where Skyler White gets raped and advised her to refuse the job.

Turner might have an agent but, honestly, do you really think that a professional actress not minor anymore should let her family choose the roles for her? No rape or violence for my precious little one!? She is a professional and I would rather not make job decisions for my grown kids.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Rape is always degrading, there is no way around it. But it is not degrading for the actress, it is degrading for the character she plays. And for the character who rapes.

And I guess that none of Anna Gunn's relatives has read the script of the episode where Skyler White gets raped and advised her to refuse the job.

Turner might have an agent but, honestly, do you really think that a professional actress not minor anymore should let her family choose the roles for her? No rape or violence for my precious little one!? She is a professional and I would rather not make job decisions for my grown kids.

I said degraded her character as in Sansa, not Sophie in particular. Sophie's personal character is not really part of this discussion although I like her and think well of her. I think you should walk back your comments a little bit. They strike me as a tad bit too personal towards me, unjustifiably.

[TheCasualObserver]

I said degraded her character as in Sansa, not Sophie in particular. Sophie's personal character is not really part of this discussion although I like her and think well of her. I think you should walk back your comments a little bit. They strike me as a tad bit too personal towards me, unjustifiably.

You're both getting off topic. Obviously Sophie Turner doesn't complain - it's a part which allowed her to showcase her acting talent, playing multiple roles (because her character is so inconsistent). There wasn't even a rape scene to actually film, just crying noises introduced in ADR.

The real problem with her comments on the subject was that they were used as a way of deflecting criticism of the storyline itself. You don't win any points by pointing out that no one was really raped; the problem is that it made no sense for Sansa to be there, that the show runners bent logic and logistics to create something shocking which would fire up debates about the show and boost viewing figures. It's exploitative sure, but not of Sophie Turner. The fact that this happened the year she turned eighteen does give me the creeps though.

[rosehustle1]

You're both getting off topic. Obviously Sophie Turner doesn't complain - it's a part which allowed her to showcase her acting talent, playing multiple roles (because her character is so inconsistent). There wasn't even a rape scene to actually film, just crying noises introduced in ADR.

The real problem with her comments on the subject was that they were used as a way of deflecting criticism of the storyline itself. You don't win any points by pointing out that no one was really raped; the problem is that it made no sense for Sansa to be there, that the show runners bent logic and logistics to create something shocking which would fire up debates about the show and boost viewing figures. It's exploitative sure, but not of Sophie Turner. The fact that this happened the year she turned eighteen does give me the creeps though.

This is what I am confused by. Sophie said that the scene was traumatic for everyone on set to watch. So, did they actually film a rape scene but just decided to cut the visual and leave the audio?

[Pc2004]

This is what I am confused by. Sophie said that the scene was traumatic for everyone on set to watch. So, did they actually film a rape scene but just decided to cut the visual and leave the audio?

That would seem to be the thought if it was traumatic for everyone on set. I guess they did rip the dress so maybe the trauma was for those who had worked with the actress since young and seen her grown up and now seeing possibly more skin exposed?? I would think with the way the show shows a lot of nudity and sex that if they did a full blown rape scene it would have been shown.

[A Ghost of Someone]

This is what I am confused by. Sophie said that the scene was traumatic for everyone on set to watch. So, did they actually film a rape scene but just decided to cut the visual and leave the audio?

I wonder about this too in the "deleted scenes" posts. It would seem that something was shot on film but was decided it would be too much, even for game of thrones.

[A Ghost of Someone]

You're both getting off topic. Obviously Sophie Turner doesn't complain - it's a part which allowed her to showcase her acting talent, playing multiple roles (because her character is so inconsistent). There wasn't even a rape scene to actually film, just crying noises introduced in ADR.

The real problem with her comments on the subject was that they were used as a way of deflecting criticism of the storyline itself. You don't win any points by pointing out that no one was really raped; the problem is that it made no sense for Sansa to be there, that the show runners bent logic and logistics to create something shocking which would fire up debates about the show and boost viewing figures. It's exploitative sure, but not of Sophie Turner. The fact that this happened the year she turned eighteen does give me the creeps though.

Off topic ? I get it that Sophie likes traumatic scene, she is a drama Queen, I get it but she says she cares about Sansa's character, I was just wondering if it occured to anyone in her "inner circle", since she does not read the books, that they have or have not told her that her character makes no sense anymore. I agree with you in that there is no sense in her being there. That was the point I was trying to make. Woman of War seemed to be offended at what she thought I was writing about and I was merely tryng to defend myself.