[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIX - The season with no reason

[Grail King]

WOTW's sources have confirmed that Jack Bender (the Season 6 director who appeared to have claimed in a Reddit Ask Me Anything that he'd read TWOW) did not in fact read an advance copy of TWOW. He has seen a Season 6 outline, though, which would undoubtedly contain some TWOW spoilers.

If you want to get someone drunk and press them for spoilery details, I'd suggest Alex Graves. He has revealed in a HitFix interview that he got D&D to tell him stuff about future plotlines and even the endgames of the characters and has been spoiling the actors as well:

yeah read it from two different sources, didn't know about Alex Graves I'll take a look see.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

We're going to differ, but here is a fact, she's not there, she escaped, she used what tools and ideas she picked up and used them, she now has info that is important not just for her but for the North and her family and she did most of it herself.

But can she go with this info to? Stannis is died, Sansa hates LF, Brienne is only one person. An the North itself? Well according to D&D's story this season the North don't seem to care alot about getting rid of the Boltens to rebel or they would have when Stannis came (like the book). So what can she do?

[Grail King]

But can she go with this info to? Stannis is died, Sansa hates LF, Brienne is only one person. An the North itself? Well according to D&D's story this season the North don't seem to care alot about getting rid of the Boltens to rebel or they would have when Stannis came (like the book). So what can she do?

That is the question, she either meets Davos and he agrees to look for Rickon, or if Brieene isn't captured by Ramsey she and Pod goes looking for him.

We have to wait until next year, I just hope she doesn't tell LF if he does come with the troops to kick the Boltons out.

ETA: Until I see Stannis at the tree dead, I say he is at least a 50/50 chance of alive.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

That is the question, she either meets Davos and he agrees to look for Rickon, or if Brieene isn't captured by Ramsey she and Pod goes looking for him.

We have to wait until next year, I just hope she doesn't tell LF if he does come with the troops to kick the Boltons out.

ETA: Until I see Stannis at the tree dead, I say he is at least a 50/50 chance of alive.

Stannis' dead. Everyone, including the director, confirmed it. He said they didn't show the death because it would feel gratuitous, but that Stannis definitely died.

[Grail King]

Stannis' dead. Everyone, including the director, confirmed it. He said they didn't show the death because it would feel gratuitous, but that Stannis definitely died.

I know, but until I see it.... :worried:

[The other prince]

I don't get how any of this was more interesting than her being bastard Alayne in the Vale?

It wasn't. It did however really cut back on the number of cast members needs for a story.

[Colonel Green]

We're going to differ, but here is a fact, she's not there, she escaped, she used what tools and ideas she picked up and used them, she now has info that is important not just for her but for the North and her family and she did most of it herself.

She escaped because Theon took pity on her and rescued her, not because of any deliberate stratagem of her own; likewise, she acquired that information by accident (nor, frankly, is the information of much use, since they could be literally anywhere).

[Grail King]

She escaped because Theon took pity on her and rescued her, not because of any deliberate stratagem of her own; likewise, she acquired that information by accident (nor, frankly, is the information of much use, since they could be literally anywhere).

yeah right, ok.

[Mladen]

yeah right, ok.

Wait a second. Are you seriously arguing that Sansa actually DID something this season? Because my "season with no reason" actually is all about Sansa being retrograded to the most idiotic version of who knows whom (since that was not even Sansa, to begin with). So, I strongly disagree with anyone who is seeing this season as some sort of "empowerment" or basically that she did anything this season.

[Masha]

But can she go with this info to? Stannis is died, Sansa hates LF, Brienne is only one person. An the North itself? Well according to D&D's story this season the North don't seem to care alot about getting rid of the Boltens to rebel or they would have when Stannis came (like the book). So what can she do?

I think, based on D&D writing, Sansa will not be written as if she hates LF. I am pretty sure, if /when they meet again, Sansa will be back to same relationship as it was right before he left WF. I don't think they will have a small conversation on "you should have known". I have that little faith in D&D writing a good Sansa story now.

[rosehustle1]

We can't blame Sansa for not having something that the writers didn't give, as far as showing her displeasure with the Boltons, it's a normal reaction, and her actions at the dinner is normal, and she showed some compassion for Theon by criticizing Ramsey which by the way Roose also did, there is nothing wrong or abnormal in her reactions to the Boltons, and she showed politeness to Walda along with some truth, if she was all courteous and happy,happy the Roose would think something isn't right and they could care less of her feelings.

Now what household staff? ( D & D gave only two ) the old woman when they first met, can she trust her? and the second time when she was told to light a candle then the old woman ran out before she could reply. what other staff was she in contact with ? And Theon the food server during the dinner.

Myranda? she's Ramsey's pet sperm collector, the only one she could work on was Theon, using the process LF used on her ( remember your name ) and she got him to reveal info by putting names ( Bran and Rickon ) to "those boys" which by the way is how cops and or psychiatrist do in real cases.

D & D gave her only two people, the old woman and Theon no one else.

Sansa did grow but also went back a step which is a normal process she got played by LF, yet she managed to escape using a corkscrew ( she should have kept the corkscrew ), went to the tower and lit the candle herself, watched the battle then understanding the outcome of the battle made a conscious effort to exit out of WF and we don't know if she was heading to the crypt or not as a Bolton soldier came up as she was heading in that direction, so she had to reverse course and ran into Myranda ( whom she rightfully put in her place ).

People are getting upset with Sansa, because they can't do jack about the screw up D & D did.

Again my opinion

Now I want to read what a certain director said about TWOW.

That's my point though. The writers needed to add these scenes so that her later reactions made more sense. Without these scenes of her utilizing her courtesy it does make her come off out of character and inconsistent later. The writers didn't have a consistent idea of how Sansa would handle this situation and it showed.

I didn't mean she had to trust the household but act like she is trying to be the Lady of Winterfell. I would have loved to see a scene where she was talking with the staff. It didn't need to be for any other reason than to appear that she was 'happy' with the situation. This would have been a great way for her to covertly cause problems later with Roose and Ramsay. They should have actually had a scene where it looked like she was actually winning Ramsay over, but we as the audience would understand that this is pretend for him as well. Also I have to disagree about Sansa showing her displeasure to the Boltons. She learned to hide her displeasure of Joffrey. Why did the writers forget this and have her openly show scorn for her enemies at dinner? In four seasons, she learned to hide how angry and hurt Joffrey's treatment made her feel, so why was that suddenly lost in this situation?

In addition, it would have been better to actually see more of what she was trying to do before marrying Ramsay, rather than just seeing her trying to figure out how to escape. Adding a few of these scenes would have made her much more consistent in characterization. I disagree that the candle lighting was a good idea. It was daytime and a battle was raging. Who would see that light? Again, it's not the character's fault but those who wrote these ideas. I like the Sansa character, but not this Sansa that the writers made for season 5.

[rosehustle1]

Book Sansa, empathetic to her enemies? Up to a point. She comes thisclose to shoving Joffrey to his death, she fantasizes about Joffrey dying, and she suggests giving Harrenhal to Walder Frey when Littlefinger says that Harrenhal has withered every hand that touched it. She has moments of kindness, but she has deeply held rage towards those who have murdered her loved ones or who have betrayed her, make no mistake. She's not some angel of forgiveness towards everybody who's ever wronged her, which is good, because that would be ridiculous; she just saves her darkest feelings towards the Joffreys and Walder Freys of the world, as opposed to the Lancels of the story, who were abusive dicks to her but who weren't personally responsible for the deaths of her kin as far as she knows.

TV Sansa spitefully wishing pain and suffering on someone she believes murdered her family members is completely consistent with her book character.

You have to remember that TV Sansa has legitimate beef against Theon (she believes he murdered her brothers), while Book Jeyne doesn't. TV Sansa's spite and anger towards Theon is wholly consistent with Book Sansa, as I said.

You're right she internally does feel conflict about helping Lancel. She did consider killing Joffrey. But I think what always is interesting about her is that she still has maintained some of her empathy even towards people who deserve it the least. I mean, she is even able to show kindness to The Hound when he's threatening her life. Her reaction to him shocks him into leaving her alone. I think that this dichotomy is interesting because it shows that she is conflicted about how she needs to handle people who are in power over her, but she still remains at her heart a kind person. They have left so much of this out of her character on the show which is a shame because a lot of this serves as a counter to Cersei. Sansa internally knows that she would prefer the people to love her instead of fear her.

I get that Sansa has problems with Theon because of his betrayal . I just feel that this portrayal is counter to the kind of character she really is. I think that upon first seeing him she would be more shocked by his state than focusing on what he did. I could understand anger being displayed, but I feel like she would be more shocked and even scared that Ramsay did this to him. I think that would be when she should have started wondering what he could do to her. I really think they should have made Theon look physically worse than how he actually appears in the show. Maybe this could have added to the impact of when she sees him again. Then she doesn't even recognize him at first because he has the grey hair and missing teeth. I would have preferred them leaving out his torture scenes, and then when we get back to Winterfell we see the shell he has become. This would have been much more dramatic for us as the audience and for Sansa.

[Grail King]

Wait a second. Are you seriously arguing that Sansa actually DID something this season? Because my "season with no reason" actually is all about Sansa being retrograded to the most idiotic version of who knows whom (since that was not even Sansa, to begin with). So, I strongly disagree with anyone who is seeing this season as some sort of "empowerment" or basically that she did anything this season.

Never said that, or even used that word, what I did say is that despite being put in a idiotic position because of LF ( by way of the writers ) and her falling for the "your Sansa Stark" ( which I hate those guys giving that and other lines to LF) she regained her composure after the Ramsey treatment she got herself out of there and for the most part on her own, she tried to utilize her knowledge of people are willing to aid her, unfortunately she did not realize how badly broken Theon was, she still tried working on Theon using what she picked up on from LF ( I believe she figured out how he got to her ) and tried it on Theon, but he was broken, she then became more forceful and made sure Theon knew there were actually names to "Those Boys".

The one time Ramsey let her out of her room she did take advantage of the one opportunity she had to acquire anything helpful to her and she found a use for it, she got her self out of the room, got to the tower and lit the candle, to bad for her the other person felt her urge for revenge took priority over her vows she said to Sansa.

The fact is she got herself out of a situation that was beyond her training level; and as of now Ramsey and Roose have no Lady Stark to cement their claim on WF.

This season isn't about Sansa and empowerment it's a continuation of playing and learning the game ( which she took a step back ) and keeping her ass alive, empowerment will come later.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I know, but until I see it.... :worried:

I actually learned to like Stannis in the books, so I'm glad to see him go in the show. Take him out of his misery and butchery.

Wait a second. Are you seriously arguing that Sansa actually DID something this season? Because my "season with no reason" actually is all about Sansa being retrograded to the most idiotic version of who knows whom (since that was not even Sansa, to begin with). So, I strongly disagree with anyone who is seeing this season as some sort of "empowerment" or basically that she did anything this season.

She did told Myranda off five minutes before her rape. That's "empowerment" to the show. Honestly, I just wish I could have stopped watching it after 5x01. At least I won't watch season 6.

The most likely is that this storyline was filler for Sansa. Elio, George have almost outright stated that Sansa will not be raped in George's books. No bearing on Sansa's journey or development. I waited until episode 10, so I could say for sure that nothing came of it and that it continues as a hollow shock moment with barely any scraps of a storyline wrapped in it. It reminds me of Elia and the Targaryen heirs, wrapped into Tywin's crimson cloak.

The fact is she got herself out of a situation that was beyond her training level; and as of now Ramsey and Roose have no Lady Stark to cement their claim on WF.

This season isn't about Sansa and empowerment it's a continuation of playing and learning the game ( which she took a step back ) and keeping her ass alive, empowerment will come later.

My main problem with this storyline, besides the ones I've stated before, in some paragraphs, is that Sansa's ability, her weapon, is that she can hide under her courtesies, and she's learning to play the game of thrones, and be not a piece, but a player. That's in the books. But the show put her in a situation that she HAD to be victimized and It just seemed lazy, considering her journey so far. Sansa couldn't play Ramsay as she plays Harry 'The Heir' because Ramsay's a psychopath. So, she couldn't actually train her ability to play the game, because there was no game at play.

If Sansa had made Ramsay kill Fat Walda/Roose, it would at least make more sense. But as it was played, it made no sense. There's still no explanation as to why Sansa decided to go on with revenge without a plan, or how she planned on getting it by marrying Ramsay.

[Grail King]

I actually learned to like Stannis in the books, so I'm glad to see him go in the show. Take him out of his misery and butchery.

She did told Myranda off five minutes before her rape. That's "empowerment" to the show. Honestly, I just wish I could have stopped watching it after 5x01. At least I won't watch season 6.

The most likely is that this storyline was filler for Sansa. Elio, George have almost outright stated that Sansa will not be raped in George's books. No bearing on Sansa's journey or development. I waited until episode 10, so I could say for sure that nothing came of it and that it continues as a hollow shock moment with barely any scraps of a storyline wrapped in it. It reminds me of Elia and the Targaryen heirs, wrapped into Tywin's crimson cloak.

My main problem with this storyline, besides the ones I've stated before, in some paragraphs, is that Sansa's ability, her weapon, is that she can hide under her courtesies, and she's learning to play the game of thrones, and be not a piece, but a player. That's in the books. But the show put her in a situation that she HAD to be victimized and It just seemed lazy, considering her journey so far. Sansa couldn't play Ramsay as she plays Harry 'The Heir' because Ramsay's a psychopath. So, she couldn't actually train her ability to play the game, because there was no game at play.

If Sansa had made Ramsay kill Fat Walda/Roose, it would at least make more sense. But as it was played, it made no sense. There's still no explanation as to why Sansa decided to go on with revenge without a plan, or how she planned on getting it by marrying Ramsay.

She can't make him kill Walda, all she can do is plant a seed in his head which is what she did; but the writers had her do it in a way that would upset him, by having Sansa say bastard twice, they could have had her say I won't let our child be considered illegitimate you must figure something out; but they didn't.

Having Sansa say kill Walda and her baby isn't Sansa.

[rosehustle1]

I actually learned to like Stannis in the books, so I'm glad to see him go in the show. Take him out of his misery and butchery.

She did told Myranda off five minutes before her rape. That's "empowerment" to the show. Honestly, I just wish I could have stopped watching it after 5x01. At least I won't watch season 6.

The most likely is that this storyline was filler for Sansa. Elio, George have almost outright stated that Sansa will not be raped in George's books. No bearing on Sansa's journey or development. I waited until episode 10, so I could say for sure that nothing came of it and that it continues as a hollow shock moment with barely any scraps of a storyline wrapped in it. It reminds me of Elia and the Targaryen heirs, wrapped into Tywin's crimson cloak.

My main problem with this storyline, besides the ones I've stated before, in some paragraphs, is that Sansa's ability, her weapon, is that she can hide under her courtesies, and she's learning to play the game of thrones, and be not a piece, but a player. That's in the books. But the show put her in a situation that she HAD to be victimized and It just seemed lazy, considering her journey so far. Sansa couldn't play Ramsay as she plays Harry 'The Heir' because Ramsay's a psychopath. So, she couldn't actually train her ability to play the game, because there was no game at play.

If Sansa had made Ramsay kill Fat Walda/Roose, it would at least make more sense. But as it was played, it made no sense. There's still no explanation as to why Sansa decided to go on with revenge without a plan, or how she planned on getting it by marrying Ramsay.

I too wish they had tried to explain the revenge plan. Marrying Ramsay gives her less power instead of more. She becomes his property. Also there is no guarantee that Stannis will follow her lead if he had won or that he would trust someone allied with Littlefinger. Then there is the fact that he lost and she would still be married to a vicious man.

I really think the lack of Northern lords was because D and D knew it wouldn't make sense for the real Sansa Stark to be raped and brutalized and for the Northern lords not to save her. It's the same reason Littlefinger is conveniently gone when she is married and raped. If Littlefinger had been there this wouldn't have been so easy for Ramsay to get away with.

[rosehustle1]

double post

[voodooqueen126]

Well I can't speak for anyone else but for me it was the simple fact that she was written not as a character but as a revenge fantasy against the stuck up hot chick. I don't understand the desperate need to offer an apologetic for really bad writing. She had no believable motivations, she acted in an unrealistic manner, her story arc was ludicrous. In other words she was not Sansa she was a lust/revenge object and moral lesson.

:agree:

Thank you! Gosh this sums it up. It wasn't written with thought for her character (aka good writing) but to make an ideological point (bad writing)

[Newstar]

Well I can't speak for anyone else but for me it was the simple fact that she was written not as a character but as a

revenge fantasy against the stuck up hot chick.

Armchair psychoanalysis of the creators' decisions as the creators' "revenge fantasies" of any description as a way of criticizing them is lazy, unseemly and gross. It's also hilarious to do so in this context given that GRRM is given a pass on such armchair psychoanalysis despite writing very similar stuff; no one muses about Sansa being beaten and humiliated in KL as GRRM's ultimate revenge fantasy against the stuck-up hot chick, or ponders the deep-seated nature of GRRM's misogyny as evidenced by the sexualized humiliation to which he subjects one of the most powerful women in the books through the walk of shame. If we don't do that to GRRM, D&D warrant the same consideration. There's plenty to criticize in Sansa's Season 5 storyline on its own merits without resorting to this type of nonsense.

The fans who've been suggesting or outright stating in some instances that D&D wrote a rape into Sansa's storyline because they were so eager to sexualize the beautiful Sophie Turner for their own erotic delectation can fuck right off as well. Jesus Christ, people.

[Mladen]

Never said that, or even used that word, what I did say is that despite being put in a idiotic position because of LF ( by way of the writers ) and her falling for the "your Sansa Stark" ( which I hate those guys giving that and other lines to LF) she regained her composure after the Ramsey treatment she got herself out of there and for the most part on her own, she tried to utilize her knowledge of people are willing to aid her, unfortunately she did not realize how badly broken Theon was, she still tried working on Theon using what she picked up on from LF ( I believe she figured out how he got to her ) and tried it on Theon, but he was broken, she then became more forceful and made sure Theon knew there were actually names to "Those Boys".

The one time Ramsey let her out of her room she did take advantage of the one opportunity she had to acquire anything helpful to her and she found a use for it, she got her self out of the room, got to the tower and lit the candle, to bad for her the other person felt her urge for revenge took priority over her vows she said to Sansa.

The fact is she got herself out of a situation that was beyond her training level; and as of now Ramsey and Roose have no Lady Stark to cement their claim on WF.

This season isn't about Sansa and empowerment it's a continuation of playing and learning the game ( which she took a step back ) and keeping her ass alive, empowerment will come later.

I am sorry, but Sansa most definitely DID NOT get herself out of a situation. Take Theon out of equation, and she is dead. That is not on her, that is on Theon. I can't even begin to explain what is inherently wrong in Sansa-Theon approach this season. Basically someone forgot how these people were supposed to react and how basically Sansa on the first sight of Theon should have known who is she dealing with. People talk "Ramsay was nice", WTF? He literally played the monster card in front of her, and based on some unknown logic, she was clueless until he raped her. I mean, give me a break. Sansa was tormented by Joffrey for years. There is no way Ramsay's behavior didn't raise all the red flags.

The thing about Theon is that they half-used of what Sansa is. And made a tragic mistake in the process. If we are talking about Sansa gaining some power, it has always been about her making people do what she wants them to do. But this time that is lost somewhere in the process. Her entire approach to Theon was borderline hysterical. And the sole idea that she is only able to compassionate with Theon after having suffered "Ramsay treatment" is a clear indication of what is wrong here. Not to mention that Myranda conversation and her insult of Theon right before she was raped. I only wonder what was the point of those... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: