[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIX - The season with no reason

[Doremus Coldwater]

[many wise words]

Nailed it. Season 5 represented zero charcter development for Ramsay, nor for Sansa if you discount the ways in which theyy regressed her character in order to squeeze her into their desired plot.

It was pure repetition of Sansa's previous victim status, based om the utterly nonsensical premise that she would give up the position of genuine power that she had finally obtained and willingly put herself back in a position which no logical chance of achieving anything worthwhile.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Nailed it. Season 5 represented zero charcter development for Ramsay, nor for Sansa if you discount the ways in which theyy regressed her character in order to squeeze her into their desired plot.

It was pure repetition of Sansa's previous victim status, based om the utterly nonsensical premise that she would give up the position of genuine power that she had finally obtained and willingly put herself back in a position which no logical chance of achieving anything worthwhile.

When i struggle back to the wedding episode when she "I take this man", she goes into that room and is told to undress. She has the look like "what am I to do?". Seriously, what did her character think was going to happen? Really, she did not have any good reason to go there, to Winterfell at all, plotwise, before and after the first rape. The writters need to be hammered for this at all of the conventions they go to. They need to answer for this shit they did to her character. I would love a questioner to call them out and tell them, after watching this season, it seems as though you guys wanted Sansa's character to get a dramatic rape scene and that was that. WHY? What was the point? Someone needs to ask them this when they sit on their panels in front of the crowds. PLEASE !

[TheCasualObserver]

When i struggle back to the wedding episode when she "I take this man", she goes into that room and is told to undress. She has the look like "what am I to do?". Seriously, what did her character think was going to happen? Really, she did not have any good reason to go there, to Winterfell at all, plotwise, before and after the first rape. The writters need to be hammered for this at all of the conventions they go to. They need to answer for this shit they did to her character. I would love a questioner to call them out and tell them, after watching this season, it seems as though you guys wanted Sansa's character to get a dramatic rape scene and that was that. WHY? What was the point? Someone needs to ask them this when they sit on their panels in front of the crowds. PLEASE !

We've been through this. It has nothing to do with character and everything to do with condensing plots. There weren't willing to cut Sansa because Sophie Turner is one of their rising stars (unlike Isaac Hempstead Wright sadly) but didn't want another location to pay for, film and fit into the run time.

Pushing Sansa into Winterfell meant that Theon had someone to empathize with, but more importantly meant that a rape scene occurred in ep 6 just as viewership was flagging. People don't care if the plot makes sense - most watch it for the shocking moments so they can later commiserate with each other.

If you're going into GOT expecting consistent characterization, you're going to have a bad time. Each character has the unenviable task of being part of the shocking moments that have made the show successful, but also doing the iconic moments of the book, even if it doesn't make sense. It's not solid characterization making all the money; it's shock.

[A Ghost of Someone]

We've been through this. It has nothing to do with character and everything to do with condensing plots. There weren't willing to cut Sansa because Sophie Turner is one of their rising stars (unlike Isaac Hempstead Wright sadly) but didn't want another location to pay for, film and fit into the run time.

Pushing Sansa into Winterfell meant that Theon had someone to empathize with, but more importantly meant that a rape scene occurred in ep 6 just as viewership was flagging. People don't care if the plot makes sense - most watch it for the shocking moments so they can later commiserate with each other.

If you're going into GOT expecting consistent characterization, you're going to have a bad time. Each character has the unenviable task of being part of the shocking moments that have made the show successful, but also doing the iconic moments of the book, even if it doesn't make sense. It's not solid characterization making all the money; it's shock.

I do not think the viewership falling was ever a concern. The fans were there before the diversion. If there was any true concerns over fans leaving, it was because the Starks are either missing (Bran and Rickon were not in season 5) or the ones who were left were in dire straights.Season 5 did not help that. After the red wedding, people were devastated but the books ADWD started getting Stark supporters excited. Season 5 negated all of that good stuff and made things worse by marrying Sansa to Ramsay to be raped. They wanted the rape and left us with nothing but dread and nothing inspirational for the Starks, the good guys.

[rosehustle1]

I do not think the viewership falling was ever a concern. The fans were there before the diversion. If there was any true concerns over fans leaving, it was because the Starks are either missing (Bran and Rickon were not in season 5) or the ones who were left were in dire straights.Season 5 did not help that. After the red wedding, people were devastated but the books ADWD started getting Stark supporters excited. Season 5 negated all of that good stuff and made things worse by marrying Sansa to Ramsay to be raped. They wanted the rape and left us with nothing but dread and nothing inspirational for the Starks, the good guys.

Yeah, the cynicism in the plot line is what really gets me. D and D made sure that Sansa was 'punished' right after declaring, "I am Sansa Stark of WInterfell. This is my home. You can't frighten me." I get this feeling that they don't empathize with the Starks as much as the Lannisters. This is why the Lannister characters are being so whitewashed. Even when the Starks make mistakes we as the audience still want them to win because they are the good guys. They are an honorable family consisting of decent people. There is a reason the Northern lords want them back as do the small folk. They treated their people well. Why aren't we getting more of this in the show?

In terms of the whole show, the vibe is very cynical and nihilistic. Why do they believe people are going to continually tune into a show where there is no hope? Shock for the sake of shock becomes predictable. After a while, all the storylines lack meaning because there is no real growth or narrative logic.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Yeah, the cynicism in the plot line is what really gets me. D and D made sure that Sansa was 'punished' right after declaring, "I am Sansa Stark of WInterfell. This is my home. You can't frighten me." I get this feeling that they don't empathize with the Starks as much as the Lannisters. This is why the Lannister characters are being so whitewashed. Even when the Starks make mistakes we as the audience still want them to win because they are the good guys. They are an honorable family consisting of decent people. There is a reason the Northern lords want them back as do the small folk. They treated their people well. Why aren't we getting more of this in the show?

In terms of the whole show, the vibe is very cynical and nihilistic. Why do they believe people are going to continually tune into a show where there is no hope? Shock for the sake of shock becomes predictable. After a while, all the storylines lack meaning because there is no real growth or narrative logic.

Maybe because the show writers grew up with silver spoons in their mouths like the Lannisters do and they naturally empathise with them because of it. "Do not judge and hate us because we are rich and influential" is seemingly what they are saying. Remember Jaime to Brienne in the bath at Harrenhal i think it was. He was talking about the look Ned Stark gave him as he came into the throne room after Ser Jaime killed Aerys. Jaime was sitted in the Iron Throne. Jaime said to Brienne "By what right does the Wolf judge the Lion?" It seems D&D are Lannisters at heart and look at the Starks as their natural life adversaries.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

You know I noticed that this season Sansa was the one Stark to take on the task of revenge. Jon declines Winterfell to defeat the Boltons. Arya hides Needle and tries to become a Faceless Man. Sansa is told to get revenge and goes to Winterfell with that intent. But she is the only Stark to get no revenge at all right? Jon kills Janos, unknowingly avenging his 'father' who Janos betrayed. Arya avenges Syrio and Sansa by killing Trant.

[A Ghost of Someone]

You know I noticed that this season Sansa was the one Stark to take on the task of revenge. Jon declines Winterfell to defeat the Boltons. Arya hides Needle and tries to become a Faceless Man. Sansa is told to get revenge and goes to Winterfell with that intent. But she is the only Stark to get no revenge at all right? Jon kills Janos, unknowingly avenging his 'father' who Janos betrayed. Arya avenges Syrio and Sansa by killing Trant.

And Sansa marries Bolton's heir, agrees to bed him but is raped instead and finally figures out she is nothing but an intended baby mama to the family that tried to exterminate hers. then realizes, finally, that this was a big mistake. UGGHHHH

[voodooqueen126]

Did you read the Allayne Sample Chapter? I started liking Lord Robin Arryn a whole lot more. She could "make him hers" over time and he seems to be the only one that actually cares about her.

And it would be easy to make Tyrion, with his desperate hunger and need for love, to make him hers. The question is, beyond the material advantages (Lady of the Vale or Lady of Casterly Rock) why would any woman want such a creature in her bed?That the man in your bed loves you is only part of the equation: it matters that you love and desire the man.

Upthread, it was asked what dark place Book Sansa would go that Show Sansa can't, my answer is that Sansa will probably help Baelish kill Robert Arryn. Killing a disabled child is A much more dark and ugly place than being a victim.

[WSmith84]

I posted this in the episode discussion, but it's pretty relevant to this thread.

Littlefinger would not risk a piece, no matter the value, if he doesn't have to.

LF tells Cersei that Sansa has married Ramsey. Cersei asks for no evidence (and LF has none to give). Cersei then gives him the Crown's permission to take the armies of the Vale to crush the Boltons. Now, why even bother actually wedding Sansa to Ramsey? Just tell Cersei that they married and you achieve the same result. How will she check on this? Is she going to write to Roose Bolton and ask? He'll deny it either way, but if for some reason he confesses he will throw LF under the bus with him. Will she rely on spies in the North? Well surely those spies would also mention that it was LF who brought Sansa there.

Now, in the various outcomes of Stannis vs Boltons, Sansa being in Winterfell doesn't aid LF at all. LF gets a better outcome in all possible scenarios if he simply lies to Cersei that Sansa married Ramsey.

1) Stannis wins, Sansa marries

Well, here LF (if he wants to ally with Stannis) has to explain why he arranged a marriage between the last Stark and Stannis' enemies. Sansa's life is at risk during the battle/siege of Winterfell. Stannis may simply kill LF for treason against him. If LF wishes to fight Stannis, Stannis could attempt to use Sansa as a hostage against either LF or the Lords of the Vale (Royce, for instance) or he could attempt to rally the remaining Northerners around Sansa by naming her Wardeness of the North. If Sansa survives, she will be very very angry with LF; so angry, in fact, that she might tell the Vale Lords about Lysa's death.

2) Stannis wins, LF lies

Here, LF can present Sansa to the triumphant Stannis. Stannis is grateful, or at least, as grateful as Stannis can be. Sansa will be named Wardeness of the North and LF may be allowed to marry her (if he so wishes) securing an alliance between the Vale and North. Sansa is not at risk for any of this and she will be much better inclined towards LF, though she may reject the marriage proposal (and has Lysa's death as her trump card). If LF wishes to fight Stannis, Stannis has no hostage or Stark rallying point.

3) Boltons win, Sansa marries

LF now has to lead the armies of the Vale against the weakened Bolton army. The Boltons will attempt to use Sansa as a hostage (again, against either LF or the Vale Lords). Roose might even write to KL to inform Cersei that LF was the one who arranged the marriage, in an attempt to bring down LF with himself. Sansa is at risk in the battle/siege of Winterfell and the second one with the Vale. If she survives, she will be very very angry with LF; so angry, in fact, that she might tell the Vale Lords about Lysa's death. Cersei might uphold her bargain to name LF Warden of the North.

4) Bolton wins, LF lies

LF leads Vale armies against the Boltons. The Boltons have no hostage. Roose could write to KL and make something up in an attempt to bring LF down. Cersei might uphold her bargain to name LF Warden of the North. Sansa will be grateful that LF rid her home of the family that killed hers. LF might propose a marriage to her; maybe she will accept.

Now, in which of these scenarios does actually marrying Sansa to Ramsey benefit Littlefinger? Answer: none. Lying is better: it costs him nothing, he doesn't have to risk a piece needlessly, Sansa is more inclined to help and trust him and much less likely to reveal the truth about Lysa.

End result; Littlefinger's plan is stupid.

[arieswmn]

I posted this in the episode discussion, but it's pretty relevant to this thread.

Littlefinger would not risk a piece, no matter the value, if he doesn't have to.

LF tells Cersei that Sansa has married Ramsey. Cersei asks for no evidence (and LF has none to give). Cersei then gives him the Crown's permission to take the armies of the Vale to crush the Boltons. Now, why even bother actually wedding Sansa to Ramsey? Just tell Cersei that they married and you achieve the same result. How will she check on this? Is she going to write to Roose Bolton and ask? He'll deny it either way, but if for some reason he confesses he will throw LF under the bus with him. Will she rely on spies in the North? Well surely those spies would also mention that it was LF who brought Sansa there.

Now, in the various outcomes of Stannis vs Boltons, Sansa being in Winterfell doesn't aid LF at all. LF gets a better outcome in all possible scenarios if he simply lies to Cersei that Sansa married Ramsey.

1) Stannis wins, Sansa marries

Well, here LF (if he wants to ally with Stannis) has to explain why he arranged a marriage between the last Stark and Stannis' enemies. Sansa's life is at risk during the battle/siege of Winterfell. Stannis may simply kill LF for treason against him. If LF wishes to fight Stannis, Stannis could attempt to use Sansa as a hostage against either LF or the Lords of the Vale (Royce, for instance) or he could attempt to rally the remaining Northerners around Sansa by naming her Wardeness of the North. If Sansa survives, she will be very very angry with LF; so angry, in fact, that she might tell the Vale Lords about Lysa's death.

2) Stannis wins, LF lies

Here, LF can present Sansa to the triumphant Stannis. Stannis is grateful, or at least, as grateful as Stannis can be. Sansa will be named Wardeness of the North and LF may be allowed to marry her (if he so wishes) securing an alliance between the Vale and North. Sansa is not at risk for any of this and she will be much better inclined towards LF, though she may reject the marriage proposal (and has Lysa's death as her trump card). If LF wishes to fight Stannis, Stannis has no hostage or Stark rallying point.

3) Boltons win, Sansa marries

LF now has to lead the armies of the Vale against the weakened Bolton army. The Boltons will attempt to use Sansa as a hostage (again, against either LF or the Vale Lords). Roose might even write to KL to inform Cersei that LF was the one who arranged the marriage, in an attempt to bring down LF with himself. Sansa is at risk in the battle/siege of Winterfell and the second one with the Vale. If she survives, she will be very very angry with LF; so angry, in fact, that she might tell the Vale Lords about Lysa's death. Cersei might uphold her bargain to name LF Warden of the North.

4) Bolton wins, LF lies

LF leads Vale armies against the Boltons. The Boltons have no hostage. Roose could write to KL and make something up in an attempt to bring LF down. Cersei might uphold her bargain to name LF Warden of the North. Sansa will be grateful that LF rid her home of the family that killed hers. LF might propose a marriage to her; maybe she will accept.

Now, in which of these scenarios does actually marrying Sansa to Ramsey benefit Littlefinger? Answer: none. Lying is better: it costs him nothing, he doesn't have to risk a piece needlessly, Sansa is more inclined to help and trust him and much less likely to reveal the truth about Lysa.

End result; Littlefinger's plan is stupid.

Excellent points....I'm glad Sansa isn't in the Vale, like in the books, but surely they could have kept her with Littlefinger or something.

[voodooqueen126]

Excellent points....I'm glad Sansa isn't in the Vale, like in the books, but surely they could have kept her with Littlefinger or something.

There were ways to make Sansa's arc interesting. They could've had her learning to decode letters, snoop through LF desk, discover secret drawers, passage ways etc. It would be like an 18th century Gothic Novel, but with a better heroine. It's not what book Sansa does, but it would save them the effort of casting a huge number of people and locations.

[Lord Freypie]

Thinking about it, they should have done the contrary of what they did, with the characters they weren't wanting to adapt the plots, sending Jaime to Winterfell (ie : Lannister ambassador to the Boltons) and Sansa to Dorne (sent to hide in a court whose prince had defended Tyrion and her innocence).

Jaime having to interact with the Boltons again, when it costed him a hand last time, and hesitating between his mission and turning against Ramsay after seeing some tortures (and real Jeyne Poole story), and some dialog between the two "killers" of Bran (him and Theon), and final cooperation to save "Arya", would have been great.

Sansa under a false identity becoming friend with Myrcella and Trystane would have been a far better way to introduce the lovely teen couple of the season, and she could have been involved in Faularia plot, her discovering who Sansa is, and wanting to use her (of course at the last minute, after considering to accept this revenge against Joffrey's sister, Sansa would have refused to poison an innocent).

Finally Brienne could still have been sent north (as logical course to search Stark girls), but ended the season with Jaime, pleasing both the shippers and the cultists still believing in LSH appearing one day.

And Bronn could still have been sent south, as knight serving the crown here to escort Myrcella/Trystane, if they absolutely wanted some snake fu action (and Dorne ending still happen, but with Trystane instead of Jaime as witness of the poisoning)

[rosehustle1]

Thinking about it, they should have done the contrary of what they did, with the characters they weren't wanting to adapt the plots, sending Jaime to Winterfell (ie : Lannister ambassador to the Boltons) and Sansa to Dorne (sent to hide in a court whose prince had defended Tyrion and her innocence).

Jaime having to interact with the Boltons again, when it costed him a hand last time, and hesitating between his mission and turning against Ramsay after seeing some tortures (and real Jeyne Poole story), and some dialog between the two "killers" of Bran (him and Theon), and final cooperation to save "Arya", would have been great.

Sansa under a false identity becoming friend with Myrcella and Trystane would have been a far better way to introduce the lovely teen couple of the season, and she could have been involved in Faularia plot, her discovering who Sansa is, and wanting to use her (of course at the last minute, after considering to accept this revenge against Joffrey's sister, Sansa would have refused to poison an innocent).

Finally Brienne could still have been sent north (as logical course to search Stark girls), but ended the season with Jaime, pleasing both the shippers and the cultists still believing in LSH appearing one day.

And Bronn could still have been sent south, as knight serving the crown here to escort Myrcella/Trystane, if they absolutely wanted some snake fu action (and Dorne ending still happen, but with Trystane instead of Jaime as witness of the poisoning)

Wow, that is a really interesting alternate season you thought up. I wish they had done even a fraction of this in the show.

[voodooqueen126]

Also do D&D not understand that courtesy is useful in the real world? Even with ones boss, or shop assistants it is useful. Yet they have Sansa behave rudely to people who could torture her to death?

[Arya442]

Especially since one of them has already spent the last few days/weeks raping her EVERY NIGHT! People like to hold that up as Sansa's big "awesome standing up for herself moment" this season, but it just makes her look like a complete idiot. Well going to WF with the "justification" that LF gave her already did that, but this definitely made it worse. And they're not even consistent about it since her "defiance" seems to come and go with no rhythm or reason to it.

[TheCasualObserver]

Especially since one of them has already spent the last few days/weeks raping her EVERY NIGHT! People like to hold that up as Sansa's big "awesome standing up for herself moment" this season, but it just makes her look like a complete idiot. Well going to WF with the "justification" that LF gave her already did that, but this definitely made it worse. And they're not even consistent about it since her "defiance" seems to come and go with no rhythm or reason to it.

It means even less when you consider that her "moment of defiance" is directed not at her abuser, but rather someone who warned her that she would be abused.

And if this is the thread to tear down LF's plan, I'm game.

What does Littlefinger actually gain from marrying Sansa to the Boltons? I think we are expected to think that this is a complex plan in which LF wins no matter which faction comes out on top, both in the North and the South. If Stannis wins, Sansa stays on as regent, doing LF's bidding. If the Boltons win, LF has an asset within Winterfell. If Cersei wins, she won't complain when LF uses the Vale to crush the Boltons, as agreed in episode 6.

Let's discuss why this is batshit crazy.

First and foremost, almost all of this uncertainty can be avoided by simply waiting for the situation in the North to resolve itself without involving Sansa at all. Either Stannis or the Boltons will come out fatally weakened, at which point LF can sweep in with the Knights of the Vale to grab Sansa's birthright (more of which later). Sansa doesn't actually need to be in WF at all for the broad scope of this plan to work.

The only reason why Sansa actually needed to go to Winterfell then and there is so that LF has a pretext to invade the North with Cersei's permission. Is that really enough to justify sacrificing your most valuable political piece? By her own admission Cersei will provide no troops for this plan - but you have to question how much Cersei could interfere with LF's plans of taking over the North if that is something she lacks the strength to do. Add to that the fact that LF knows Cersei's position is about to become even less stable (WOS is known to him as shown in his conversation with Olenna) and him sacrificing Sansa just for Cersei's permission to invade the North with his own men becomes even more bizarre. What would he have done if Cersei had rejected his proposal because him controlling three whole Kingdoms would be just too much? I suspect the writers have no answer to that.

And as if that wasn't enough, the speed with which Cersei throws the Boltons under the bus (prior to Sansa even marrying Ramsay) suggests that LF has grossly overestimated the strength of the Bolton/Lannister alliance. Cersei had no idea Sansa was in the North, so LF had to volunteer the information, which Cersei accepts immediately without question. We know she can't have her own spies in the North, otherwise they would have seen Sansa arrive with LF, so wherein lied the necessity for Sansa to go at all? Evidence of a betrothal would seemingly have been enough to turn Cersei against the Boltons. In any case, actually marrying Ramsay to Sansa was a collossal mistake on LF's part, not just because of how Ramsay treated her, but also because LF gets so little out of it.

Finally, there's no way for LF to convince the Lords of the Vale to attack the North without Sansa's claim on it being in jeopardy. Placing Sansa in Winterfell means that she is physically in danger - which I acknowledge is probably enough to convince the Lords of the Vale to go save her, but that's completely unnecessary. The correct play would be to marry Sansa to Robin Arryn. Not only is Robin very easy to control (and would never have the will, nor capacity to do Sansa any harm at all, making him the perfect political husband) but the North becomes Robin Arryn's property through Sansa, giving the Vale a compelling reason to deal with whomever wins in the North in order to seize Sansa's dowry. Cersei's hatred of Sansa is a problem, but since he, Roose and Cersei herself have already acknowledged that Lannister power is spent (and other threats are coming which are far more pressing from both Dany and the Faith militant) what does it matter what Cersei thinks? This plan will net LF three of the seven Kingdoms and Sansa is never placed in any danger, nor given a reason to hate LF for an ill conceived marriage plot which gets her raped.

In short, LF's season 5 plan is such an illogical mess, I'm forced to assume that he suffered an off screen head injury prior to the Season beginning. That, or the showrunners just wanted to see Sansa get raped.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

I don't understand why they didn't cast these characters for the fifth season? What was the point of having no Northern lords at all then to just have them magically appear a season later.

Because D&D are pro-Renly and probably hated the idea of Stannis being in any which shape or form the guy who rallies the North against the Boltens

[ArabellaVidal]

The title of this thread says it all. The season with no reason.

Because D&D are pro-Renly and probably hated the idea of Stannis being in any which shape or form the guy who rallies the North against the Boltens

Heh. I was thinking they had this same bias against Catelyn when they gave all her best ideas to other people and blamed her not loving Jon as the entire reason for everyone's suffering. Of course, they had her deliver this hideous reasoning... Then even if you understand why they can change an iconic line like "Only Cat" to "Your Sister" (I don't) why the heck would they change Cat of the Canals to Lana? It's as if Catelyn never existed.

For Sansa all they had to do was keep her in the Vale, not give her storyline too much screen time and concentrate on telling a better story for the other characters instead of murdering the characterisation and progress of Jaime, Brienne, LF, Sansa, Theon etc. Cast Arianne and Jeyne Poole. Or cut out Dorne altogether and just have Nym arrive at KL. Everyone's stories would have benefitted from a little thought. Why waste all those resources on Dorne (Alexander Siddig, the Alcazar)? Keep the Northern storyline, pare it down yes, but keep it. Gah. It's just sooo annoying how Sansa and the other characters have been disserviced by the unnecessary inclusion of the Sand Fakes and the Ramsay Snow fanclub.

[rosehustle1]

The title of this thread says it all. The season with no reason.

Heh. I was thinking they had this same bias against Catelyn when they gave all her best ideas to other people and blamed her not loving Jon as the entire reason for everyone's suffering. Of course, they had her deliver this hideous reasoning... Then even if you understand why they can change an iconic line like "Only Cat" to "Your Sister" (I don't) why the heck would they change Cat of the Canals to Lana? It's as if Catelyn never existed.

For Sansa all they had to do was keep her in the Vale, not give her storyline too much screen time and concentrate on telling a better story for the other characters instead of murdering the characterisation and progress of Jaime, Brienne, LF, Sansa, Theon etc. Cast Arianne and Jeyne Poole. Or cut out Dorne altogether and just have Nym arrive at KL. Everyone's stories would have benefitted from a little thought. Why waste all those resources on Dorne (Alexander Siddig, the Alcazar)? Keep the Northern storyline, pare it down yes, but keep it. Gah. It's just sooo annoying how Sansa and the other characters have been disserviced by the unnecessary inclusion of the Sand Fakes and the Ramsay Snow fanclub.

They should have just focused on Kings Landing, Meereen, Bravos,The Wall, and the North. I agree they could have just showed one or two scenes of Sansa in the Vale. I would have also been fine with Sansa out for the season like Bran. I mean, maybe then everything would have played better and had more logic behind it. Pacing was really crazy this season. Everything felt rushed. Maybe even have a few episodes that only centered on two locations would have helped establish things better. Maybe they could have just introduced Dorne in a few scenes at the end of the season to set that arc up for next season. Like in The Walking Dead they may introduce a new character or location in the last episode which gives everyone something to look forward to next season. Also I seriously think they need to cut down the intro. It's nice to look at but it takes up like 3mins that they could use in the story.

I don't know why they ever believed Sansa as Jeyne would be received well. The most obvious problem is that it gives Sansa absolutely no power, in fact it takes her power away. The other issues is that they are basically saying Sansa and Jeyne are interchangeable characters when that couldn't be further from the truth, which is evidenced by how inconsistent Sansa became as they tried to make her both women at once. The other issue is that it makes everyone else in the plot act out of character as well. And this is a big part of it, no one wants to see an actress that they saw as a twelve year old being raped on that same show that they watched them grow up on. It's disturbing as hell. Knowing that Sansa is not in this situation with Ramsay in the books also adds insult to injury when looking at the show. There was just no way this would work and in the end it led to nothing. And there were no Northern Lords at all. It was so fucking bleak and there was no hope at all.