[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIX - The season with no reason

[Newstar]

So she won't be assaulted or suffer a horrendous marriage in TWOW. Thank you so much for assuring me. I was on the edge of my seat with worry. But knowing that you can guarantee NONE of that will happen to the Sansa character is a relief.

I thought that was VERY believable. LF proved he's one of the baddest operators around. I couldn't blame her for thinking she had finally "arrived", she clearly didn't know about the fate that Roz met or how he disposes of bad investments. She thought the most dangerous man was on her side no matter what. And tip of the hat to you over the Lannister Parallel.

I was impressed with her during 4X08. I thought it was shrewd and a maneuver I could see her pulling off around people that didn't know her. Or have any reason to doubt her. She fed them honesty and crafted her "embellishments" around that. But the Boltons aren't interested in tea parties or courtesies. Different animals that don't care WHO is mistreated or brutalized, be they high or low. Whatever serves them best is what they'll do.

The Vale lords in the show seemed to be good people, sympathetic and loyal to the Stark cause, and credulous: easy pickings for Sansa. None of these things are true of the Boltons.

[Colonel Green]

The funny thing about Book Sansa is that as she's written, she needs a man to tell her what to do, and those so eager to play armchair psychologist with D&D and speculate about how a Sansa-type girl must have been mean to them in high school--which is hilarious to me, never change, fandom--would do well to look at what it says about GRRM that that's what he writes.

Book Sansa has never, since everything went to crap, been in a position remotely like the one TV Sansa was in at the end of last season. Nor does it really make sense to assume this all come from having Baelish around, because she made her big play when he was completely up a creek without a paddle.

The rape, to me, laid out the cold hard truth to Sansa that the war is not as easy as she thought it would be. You can't just win the war with you sitting pretty in Winterfell.

That's a completely idiotic "lesson", as nobody would ever think that, not even AGOT Sansa at her most naive. Moreover, there was never a remotely credible idea for why she had to be at Winterfell for this plan to work in the first place, nor did we ever see her even attempt the one thing Littlefinger suggested she do, that being to charm Ramsay.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

This is a valid criticism but not about Sansa as character. It is about the women who don't matter but who should and it is about Theon.
And it is about hypocrisy. Not you are the hypocrite, obviously, but those who think the rape story is only outrageous because Sansa is concerned. Those posters were ok with Martin's writing since the story was basically about Theon and Jeyne was a tool to allow Theon's character to develop. And Theon's development would be diminished when he supports a girl he knows and may have liked instead of having the strength to support some servant's daughter.
In that case you believe that Sansa has been instumentalized for Theon. I do not agree. I think the show has developed a plot according to what Martin will write in a similiar manner and they have used an already existing version. Thus taking away the focus from that anonymous abused girl who is treated like millions of forced prostitutes and women enslaved by forced and arranged marriages in our world. That might be sad but only because it shifts away the focus from Jeyne who deserves just as much pity as Sansa.
But I believe that a similiar story will happen to Sansa in the books and that in the end focusing on Sansa instead of forgetting about her being in the Vale will offer more to viewers in shaping Sansa into an even more interesting character.
And critics about Sansa's not existing development away from being victim may be very premature since Martin might write just the same: She will still stay Littlefinger's pawn for a while and then she might turn into a force to reckon with - or not.

That's debatable. You don't actually know what will happen on the books - And neither do I. I can come up with a theory that Sansa will warg in Nymeria and it has the same validity. Of course, there's what we think is going to happen due to our interpretation of her arc, but that is entirely subjective. Hence, why Sansa fans and haters have vastly different interpretations, that according to both sides, are correct. A hater might argue that Sansa's story is about following a man - As I've seen some argue - And a Fan might argue that Sansa's story is about learning to play the political game. Anyhow, we do know they have changed storylines and characters vastly, hence, Arianne's being erased, Tyrion's journey, Barristan's death, Shireen's burning. George has said this is a Godzilla - His words, not mine - In regards to Sansa's book plot, so there's no "This is what will happen!". We do NOT know, and what we do know is that Alayne Stone (Not Sansa Stark) is charming Harry 'The Heir', and apparently successfully. We do know that she's not going to get raped by Ramsay Bolton on Winterfell though, because that's not her arc on the books, and whilst George might ship her off to Ramsay in Winds, I don't see it as a likely twist.

Now, my issue in regards to Sansa's story in Winterfell has little to do with the rape itself, but the leaps the plot had to do to put Sansa in such a position, which is the point I'm most against. Ramsay raping Sansa is logical after she's in Winterfell in the position she's put by the writers - But why was she there anyway? That's just the first point. Then comes the butchery of Theon's arc, and the fact that what's poignant in Theon's arc is that he saves Jeyne, not Sansa. The Northern Lords would care if it was Arya. But they're fine with looking away at Jeyne's suffering - And Theon's "redemption" comes from that, that he can empathize with a nobody such as Jeyne Poole. Jeyne herself is a character that deserved to be represented, even brutal as her situation is, because you can understand why Jeyne breaks and her own suffering - And even more importantly, in the books, we barely know Ramsay, Reek and Jeyne at that point. We aren't familiar with Ramsay's brutality, unlike the show. After Sansa, Theon's my favorite character and I feel offended that his storyline was reduced to saving someone. Theon helping Jeyne says a lot more about him than him "saving" Sansa.

Then, your point that George will do something similar, and hence, it's okay to interchange both characters, is false, simply because we do not know what George will do, and even if Sansa's raped, it most certainly won't be by the family that killed her brother, in her childhood home, and it most certainly will make sense, and if it's the case, then I won't oppose to it

Then, there's the fact that Sansa's arc was butchered without repair as well - You can't manipulate a psychopath such as Ramsay, rendering her mission useless - and her characterization, even according to the show, quite confusing. There's no explanation as to what Sansa will gain by marrying Ramsay. There's no revenge plan. If Stannis' wins, she's named Wardeness, but if he loses, she gets her revenge by making Ramsay hers? And if Stannis wins, can't she just send him a letter from the Vale explaining her situation? Then, Show!Sansa's apparently aware in Episode 4 that she's going to sleep with Ramsay "I'll be a married woman by the time you return". But by episode 6, she's apparently clueless as to what she'll do in her wedding night. Of course, that's plot-indulged characterization, because she needs to be raped and Theon needs to see.

So, in conclusion, my problem isn't about the rape in itself, nor do I feel less for Jeyne and would be okay with the pain inflicted on her. Rape should be represented. The difference is, in the books, it makes sense, whilst the show plot did not. So, regardless of them being sexist or not, of misogyny issues and not, there's something that cannot be denied. It's bad writing. It's not even about being Sansa - Hell, I don't think one needs to like Arianne to notice how Dorne's been dreadful, nor like Tyrion to notice how his character's been altered without the Tysha revelation and his final scene in Storm done differently, adding to his impoverishment as a character in the show. And hell, I had characters I liked being raped before - Lucrezia Borgia was raped in her wedding night in the Borgias. But the difference there was, It was well written. And well, good writers and bad writers make different works, I'm afraid.

[Grail King]

But we have already seen that development in Sansa at the vale in the last season where she played Petyr. There was absolutely no reason in making her a victim again before getting the courage to be rescued again. This is what people mean when they say there was no growth. Your examples exclude that she went two steps back in her growth arc before coming back one step ahead. She went back to becoming a victim, suffering again.

And it almost seems now that the rape word is used as a clutch more by the show defenders than the ones who are criticizing Sansa's arc. I don't think anyone has just said, Sansa was ruined because....rape. They are just tired of the whole - Sansa becomes a victim again, we see her sad and miserable yet trying to control her emotions and keep a low profile, a knight in shining armor appears (the hound, Tyrion, Dontos, Reek), she believes them grudgingly and suspiciously, they rescues her at the last moment and she runs from the place into the next trouble- cliche repeated every season

Edited for spelling and adding some words.

Exclude nothing really, you don't think people don't have failures?

Sansa may have to go a step or two back to go forward with more knowledge and skills, set backs yes; but no where is she showing falling back to a total victim.

Just my take.

[Colonel Green]

Exclude nothing really, you don't think people don't have failures?

Sansa may have to go a step or two back to go forward with more knowledge and skills, set backs yes; but no where is she showing falling back to a total victim.

Just my take.

What "knowledge and skills" has she gained from this season-long story? Her only role in Winterfell was quite literally to sit there and wait to be rescued. She never tried any sort of manipulation, politicking, alliance-building, or anything to build on in the future, and her only actual actions, trying to escape, both failed for reasons beyond her control, and then succeeded for reasons beyond her control. Likewise, the one possible plot nugget, that Bran and Rickon are alive, was dropped into her lap, not something she made efforts to acquire (nor, really, is there much to do with that information).

[Grail King]

What "knowledge and skills" has she gained from this season-long story? Her only role in Winterfell was quite literally to sit there and wait to be rescued. She never tried any sort of manipulation, politicking, alliance-building, or anything to build on in the future, and her only actual actions, trying to escape, both failed for reasons beyond her control, and then succeeded for reasons beyond her control. Likewise, the one possible plot nugget, that Bran and Rickon are alive, was dropped into her lap, not something she made efforts to acquire (nor, really, is there much to do with that information).

Really?

What you did not think she picked up on the mind game Baleish used on her? She quickly tried to put it to use on Theon, but she did not know how broken he is, she then moves to a stick formula and tells Theon she would have done more to him if she could, but instead she went to a reasoning approach and forced him to slip up and reveal the truth ( this is a skill that she learned unconsciously); and whether we call it a skill or an attempt her using the corkscrew to get her ass out of the room worked, she wasn't expecting Myranda but lunging toward her was instant death she was willing to die, just as book Sansa was when going to the Godswoods in KL.

She did not wait to be rescued she did the attempt on her own, waiting means she stayed in her room until Theon, Brienne, Stannis or Podrick come busting in and take her by the hand and say let's go my lady sorry that did not happen and the stronger personality in this series is Sansa not Theon and if anyone thinks that taking a offered hand in a possible death jump is a sign of weakness well they know nothing.

Sorry but people are missing things and also forgetting she's only 14 -16 in the show.

[TheCasualObserver]

Really?

What you did not think she picked up on the mind game Baleish used on her? She quickly tried to put it to use on Theon, but she did not know how broken he is, she then moves to a stick formula and tells Theon she would have done more to him if she could, but instead she went to a reasoning approach and forced him to slip up and reveal the truth ( this is a skill that she learned unconsciously); and whether we call it a skill or an attempt her using the corkscrew to get her ass out of the room worked, she wasn't expecting Myranda but lunging toward her was instant death she was willing to die, just as book Sansa was when going to the Godswoods in KL.

She did not wait to be rescued she did the attempt on her own, waiting means she stayed in her room until Theon, Brienne, Stannis or Podrick come busting in and take her by the hand and say let's go my lady sorry that did not happen and the stronger personality in this series is Sansa not Theon and if anyone thinks that taking a offered hand in a possible death jump is a sign of weakness well they know nothing.

Sorry but people are missing things and also forgetting she's only 14 -16 in the show.

You're right. How could we fail to see that she leveled her Speech and Lockpicking!

In all seriousness though, what do these token achievements matter to her character? However much she learnt in Winterfell would pail in comparison to the total idiocy of marrying Ramsay in the first place on nothing more than some extremely vague promise of revenge and that "there must always be a Stark in winterfell"? (Incidentally, there hasn't been a Stark in Winterfell for the last two seasons and the show didn't care at all). Her actions this season amounted to nothing more than threatening the most broken man in Westeros and picking a lock. Well worth getting raped I'm sure.

Defense of Sansa's characterization baffles me this season; how can it possibly be in keeping with her book counterpart if she is actually standing in for another role entirely? It's a plot point which requires Sansa to be a complete moron for the duration of Season 5 and I heartily disprove. It's inconsistent, nonsensical and exploitative.

[rosehustle1]

This is a valid criticism but not about Sansa as character. It is about the women who don't matter but who should and it is about Theon.

And it is about hypocrisy. Not you are the hypocrite, obviously, but those who think the rape story is only outrageous because Sansa is concerned. Those posters were ok with Martin's writing since the story was basically about Theon and Jeyne was a tool to allow Theon's character to develop. And Theon's development would be diminished when he supports a girl he knows and may have liked instead of having the strength to support some servant's daughter.

In that case you believe that Sansa has been instumentalized for Theon. I do not agree. I think the show has developed a plot according to what Martin will write in a similiar manner and they have used an already existing version. Thus taking away the focus from that anonymous abused girl who is treated like millions of forced prostitutes and women enslaved by forced and arranged marriages in our world. That might be sad but only because it shifts away the focus from Jeyne who deserves just as much pity as Sansa.

But I believe that a similiar story will happen to Sansa in the books and that in the end focusing on Sansa instead of forgetting about her being in the Vale will offer more to viewers in shaping Sansa into an even more interesting character.

And critics about Sansa's not existing development away from being victim may be very premature since Martin might write just the same: She will still stay Littlefinger's pawn for a while and then she might turn into a force to reckon with - or not.

A work of fiction that takes a female protagonist seriously does not necessarily have to give her an uplifting story, does not have to make her to be successful, needs not present her as someone learning from mistakes and for sure does not have to present her as gloriously overcoming limitations of the world she lives in. Remember Tess d'Urbervilles, Anna Karenina and Effi Briest. In describing where these women failed, where they got damaged, even killed by their society the autors unveiled the oppressive structures they were confronted with. No, we may like a good ending for female characters in fiction but it is no more likely than for women in our world, and certainly not very likely for women in a timesetting like Martin's. If Sansa continues to be a victim she shares the fate of 90 percent of the women in her world.

Yes, we root for her to get herself out of that mess and we may project, with story hindsight and present day ideas in our heads, our potential decisions on her, that we would never have been so stupid for example. But Martin on one hand and the show on the other hand have given her a fictional life of her own where our hopes and wishes are irrelevant.

I think this is where things are getting miscommunicated. It is not because Sansa gets raped that it is outrageous but because the creators put her into a storyline for the main purpose to rape her. They bent all logic and made characters that are usually smart like Littlefinger do things completely opposite to their previous behavior, so that Sansa would be in the Jeyne role. I never said she has to have an uplifting storyline or that she may not be a victim of a dubious sexual incident in the books, but so far, her character in the books is not married to Ramsay nor is she being groomed to be married to him. She is being groomed to marry Harry. She is in a situation that is much safer than literally living with her family's enemies. It does bug me that D and D lost sight of the importance of Jeyne and actually played into the idea that she doesn't matter thus believing the audience wouldn't care. It's like they totally missed the point of who Jeyne Poole is and how she is a sad parallel to Sansa in the books. They missed out on bringing light to the struggles of girls like her and the hypocrisy of the feudal system built on chivalry that allows this girl to be abused.

I think if the endgame wasn't just to rape Sansa and actually was presented in a logical manner then it wouldn't have been so terrible. Unfortunately, they bent logic to get her there, she never actually does anything to win over Ramsay or to win over the household, and then she gets raped. It was great that she picked the lock, but to then go to the tower and use the candle was silly. It was daytime and a battle was raging. How would anyone see that candle light? I also didn't applaud her accepting death. In the books this girl fought Lysa when she was pulling her to the moon door and she went out of her way to burn her bed down to avoid letting Joffrey ever know she menstruated. Why would Sansa just accept her fate at this point? Especially, now that she knows her brothers are alive? It seemed like it went counter to that 'hopeful' scene when she found out that information, just so they could to set up Theon's sudden redemption.

Oh, I agree Theon wasn't served well in this plot either. There was no real buildup to why he would suddenly save Sansa. There was no moments in which he was contemplating his past or even a heart tree scene. It works in the books because he is a P.O.V character. He sees what is happening to Jeyne, and it does slowly shake him from his Reek state. But in the show it doesn't work because Sansa is a protagonist and she already is a P.O.V character. Neither Sansa or Theon were given the attention needed. In Sansa's case, she became an object of the rape instead of the victim experiencing it, which was baffling. Then Theon is pushed more to the background so that Ramsay can have even more screen time to have random sex with Myranda,have war talks about 20 men going into Stannis' camp, and showing no mercy to a lone soldier after the battle. It was all poorly created and really served no purpose.

[rosehustle1]

Really?

What you did not think she picked up on the mind game Baleish used on her? She quickly tried to put it to use on Theon, but she did not know how broken he is, she then moves to a stick formula and tells Theon she would have done more to him if she could, but instead she went to a reasoning approach and forced him to slip up and reveal the truth ( this is a skill that she learned unconsciously); and whether we call it a skill or an attempt her using the corkscrew to get her ass out of the room worked, she wasn't expecting Myranda but lunging toward her was instant death she was willing to die, just as book Sansa was when going to the Godswoods in KL.

She did not wait to be rescued she did the attempt on her own, waiting means she stayed in her room until Theon, Brienne, Stannis or Podrick come busting in and take her by the hand and say let's go my lady sorry that did not happen and the stronger personality in this series is Sansa not Theon and if anyone thinks that taking a offered hand in a possible death jump is a sign of weakness well they know nothing.

Sorry but people are missing things and also forgetting she's only 14 -16 in the show.

I get what you are saying, but I think we needed to see more of her courtesy as armor in the beginning of the season, so that it would make more logical sense for her to be completely taken aback by Ramsay and the situation later. She only showed this tool once, and that was when she first greeted Roose. But later at the dinner she is openly rude and says things that shows her dislike for them and the situation. She also never tries to talk with the household staff or win over the Bolton men. I thought they would at least include one scene where she was trying to win them over with her smiles and courtesy. If they had even two scenes of this it would have been much more understanding to see her shocked by Ramsay later. I think the creators made the mistake of having her see Theon before the wedding. That should have been saved for the day itself. Then from there build the tension of what she has really gotten herself into. Not that I even like her in this storyline, but they could have at least done things in a smarter manner. I mean, actually show Ramsay pretending to like her and her thinking she has him down. Then she sees Theon and it goes downhill from there. But they didn't show any of this and Sansa came off out of character many times. She is an empathetic person in the books and even will help those who hurt her i.e. Lancel. But in the show she's wishing she tortured Theon, which again screws up the arc of Theon and Jeyne as both victims sharing an abusive situation. I was glad Sansa got the corkscrew, but the candle thing should have been abandoned. It was daylight and a battle is raging not to mention it looked snowy out there. How would anyone see that candle? I was hoping she would just escape to the crypts or possibly use the corkscrew in self-defense but neither happened. I think Sansa deserved much better than this plot and this inconsistent characterization.

[Newstar]

She is an empathetic person in the books and even will help those who hurt her i.e. Lancel.

Book Sansa, empathetic to her enemies? Up to a point. She comes thisclose to shoving Joffrey to his death, she fantasizes about Joffrey dying, and she suggests giving Harrenhal to Walder Frey when Littlefinger says that Harrenhal has withered every hand that touched it. She has moments of kindness, but she has deeply held rage towards those who have murdered her loved ones or who have betrayed her, make no mistake. She's not some angel of forgiveness towards everybody who's ever wronged her, which is good, because that would be ridiculous; she just saves her darkest feelings towards the Joffreys and Walder Freys of the world, as opposed to the Lancels of the story, who were abusive dicks to her but who weren't personally responsible for the deaths of her kin as far as she knows.

TV Sansa spitefully wishing pain and suffering on someone she believes murdered her family members is completely consistent with her book character.

But in the show she's wishing she tortured Theon, which again screws up the arc of Theon and Jeyne as both victims sharing an abusive situation.

You have to remember that TV Sansa has legitimate beef against Theon (she believes he murdered her brothers), while Book Jeyne doesn't. TV Sansa's spite and anger towards Theon is wholly consistent with Book Sansa, as I said.

[Grail King]

I get what you are saying, but I think we needed to see more of her courtesy as armor in the beginning of the season, so that it would make more logical sense for her to be completely taken aback by Ramsay and the situation later. She only showed this tool once, and that was when she first greeted Roose. But later at the dinner she is openly rude and says things that shows her dislike for them and the situation. She also never tries to talk with the household staff or win over the Bolton men. I thought they would at least include one scene where she was trying to win them over with her smiles and courtesy. If they had even two scenes of this it would have been much more understanding to see her shocked by Ramsay later. I think the creators made the mistake of having her see Theon before the wedding. That should have been saved for the day itself. Then from there build the tension of what she has really gotten herself into. Not that I even like her in this storyline, but they could have at least done things in a smarter manner. I mean, actually show Ramsay pretending to like her and her thinking she has him down. Then she sees Theon and it goes downhill from there. But they didn't show any of this and Sansa came off out of character many times. She is an empathetic person in the books and even will help those who hurt her i.e. Lancel. But in the show she's wishing she tortured Theon, which again screws up the arc of Theon and Jeyne as both victims sharing an abusive situation. I was glad Sansa got the corkscrew, but the candle thing should have been abandoned. It was daylight and a battle is raging not to mention it looked snowy out there. How would anyone see that candle? I was hoping she would just escape to the crypts or possibly use the corkscrew in self-defense but neither happened. I think Sansa deserved much better than this plot and this inconsistent characterization.

We can't blame Sansa for not having something that the writers didn't give, as far as showing her displeasure with the Boltons, it's a normal reaction, and her actions at the dinner is normal, and she showed some compassion for Theon by criticizing Ramsey which by the way Roose also did, there is nothing wrong or abnormal in her reactions to the Boltons, and she showed politeness to Walda along with some truth, if she was all courteous and happy,happy the Roose would think something isn't right and they could care less of her feelings.

Now what household staff? ( D & D gave only two ) the old woman when they first met, can she trust her? and the second time when she was told to light a candle then the old woman ran out before she could reply. what other staff was she in contact with ? And Theon the food server during the dinner.

Myranda? she's Ramsey's pet sperm collector, the only one she could work on was Theon, using the process LF used on her ( remember your name ) and she got him to reveal info by putting names ( Bran and Rickon ) to "those boys" which by the way is how cops and or psychiatrist do in real cases.

D & D gave her only two people, the old woman and Theon no one else.

Sansa did grow but also went back a step which is a normal process she got played by LF, yet she managed to escape using a corkscrew ( she should have kept the corkscrew ), went to the tower and lit the candle herself, watched the battle then understanding the outcome of the battle made a conscious effort to exit out of WF and we don't know if she was heading to the crypt or not as a Bolton soldier came up as she was heading in that direction, so she had to reverse course and ran into Myranda ( whom she rightfully put in her place ).

People are getting upset with Sansa, because they can't do jack about the screw up D & D did.

Again my opinion

Now I want to read what a certain director said about TWOW.

[PureGold]

For me nothing has been derailed because GRRM hasn't given that impression. When he spoke about Sansa's Rape he said some things will happen differently but that they will end up in the same place. This tells me that GRRM doesn't think Sansa's over-reaching plot has been derailed. He's publicly stated that the show will have to come up with something to compensate for the future and important appearances of Willas and Garlan Tyrell. I got the impression that GRRM is very capable of seeing how Sansa goes from where she is in the show, to her ultimate fate as a character.

I really like the iciness the show has developed in the Sansa character. I feel like she feels contempt for just about everyone she comes across but in a different way then Cersei.

As for going forward, if she meets up with Littlefinger again, I wouldn't blame her for throwing in with him. I still maintain that for the purpose of survival, which is Sansa's driving force right now, Baelish is her best bet. He has the Vale (and it's clear Cersei thought LF was in the Vale while he was at Winterfell so someone is in place to cover for him) which has one of the few undiminished armies left.

And I question whether Book!Myranda will turn out to be the same kind of character as Myranda in the show.

[Newstar]

For me nothing has been derailed because GRRM hasn't given that impression. When he spoke about Sansa's Rape he said some things will happen differently but that they will end up in the same place. This tells me that GRRM doesn't think Sansa's over-reaching plot has been derailed. He's publicly stated that the show will have to come up with something to compensate for the future and important appearances of Willas and Garlan Tyrell. I got the impression that GRRM is very capable of seeing how Sansa goes from where she is in the show, to her ultimate fate as a character.

I really like the iciness the show has developed in the Sansa character. I feel like she feels contempt for just about everyone she comes across but in a different way then Cersei.

As for going forward, if she meets up with Littlefinger again, I wouldn't blame her for throwing in with him. I still maintain that for the purpose of survival, which is Sansa's driving force right now, Baelish is her best bet. He has the Vale (and it's clear Cersei thought LF was in the Vale while he was at Winterfell so someone is in place to cover for him) which has one of the few undiminished armies left.

And I question whether Book!Myranda will turn out to be the same kind of character as Myranda in the show.

The reason I and others think Book Sansa won't be raped is that GRRM has supposedly said that he has no interest in writing POV rapes...although he's broken that rule already in the books (Book Dany is fairly graphically raped several times in the first few days of her marriage, and Book Cersei recalls being raped by Robert), so I don't know how much stock we can place in that statement, to be honest.

While I think Sansa will lose in her virginity in the books as well, as that's an important plot point, I imagine TV Sansa will wind up in the same place as Book Sansa by the TV writers ignoring that she lost her virginity through rape (and was subsequently brutally raped on multiple occasions), just as the TV writers ignored TV Shae's characterization to get her to where she needed to be for her plot to resolve the way it did in the books (betraying Tyrion and Sansa).

Your comment made me think of the Cersei/Sansa parallels throughout this work. It would have been interesting to see Sansa turning into Cersei--bitter, power-hungry, caring about her children and nothing else--through enduring the awfulness of the patriarchal system (making unwanted marriages, being raped by her husband, hating her husband, being treated as a brood mare, etc.), but of course we know that Book Cersei was always an insane psychopath, whereas the worst we can say of Sansa is that she was utterly insufferable for most of AGOT, so the parallel only goes so far.

I doubt Book Myranda will turn out to be a psychopath or will openly threaten Sansa's life, but I can buy her jealousy and resentment of Sansa causing problems for Sansa down the road. I'm actually surprised that Sansa appears to be so chummy with Myranda as of TWOW, considering that 1) Littlefinger warned her about Myranda, 2) Sansa realizes that Myranda is deeply hurt over the Harry thing and 3) all the women who've aggressively tried to befriend Sansa have wound up fucking her over (Cersei, Margaery, Lysa, etc.). You'd think she'd learn.

[Grail King]

The reason I and others think Book Sansa won't be raped is that GRRM has supposedly said that he has no interest in writing POV rapes...although he's broken that rule already in the books (Book Dany is fairly graphically raped several times in the first few days of her marriage, and Book Cersei recalls being raped by Robert), so I don't know how much stock we can place in that statement, to be honest.

While I think Sansa will lose in her virginity in the books as well, as that's an important plot point, I imagine TV Sansa will wind up in the same place as Book Sansa by the TV writers ignoring that she lost her virginity through rape (and was subsequently brutally raped on multiple occasions), just as the TV writers ignored TV Shae's characterization to get her to where she needed to be for her plot to resolve the way it did in the books (betraying Tyrion and Sansa).

Your comment made me think of the Cersei/Sansa parallels throughout this work. It would have been interesting to see Sansa turning into Cersei--bitter, power-hungry, caring about her children and nothing else--through enduring the awfulness of the patriarchal system (making unwanted marriages, being raped by her husband, hating her husband, being treated as a brood mare, etc.), but of course we know that Book Cersei was always an insane psychopath, whereas the worst we can say of Sansa is that she was utterly insufferable for most of AGOT, so the parallel only goes so far.

I doubt Book Myranda will turn out to be a psychopath or will openly threaten Sansa's life, but I can buy her jealousy and resentment of Sansa causing problems for Sansa down the road. I'm actually surprised that Sansa appears to be so chummy with Myranda as of TWOW, considering that 1) Littlefinger warned her about Myranda, 2) Sansa realizes that Myranda is deeply hurt over the Harry thing and 3) all the women who've aggressively tried to befriend Sansa have wound up fucking her over (Cersei, Margaery, Lysa, etc.). You'd think she'd learn.

Yeah she's chummy, because she is suddenly happy because 1. some ideas she come up with, Petyr is using she isn't proficient yet to see the poor results, she sees only one side of it, 2. she at the moment is not under threat of death ( it's hidden from her ) because of where she is.

She definitely knows Myranda is hurt from her tones and words.

I’d sooner marry Lord Petyr. Then I’d be your mother. How little

is his finger, I ask you?”

“The betrothal was my father’s doing,” Alayne protested, as she had a hundred times before.

She is only teasing, she told herself… but behind the japes, she could hear the hurt.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Yeah she's chummy, because she is suddenly happy because 1. some ideas she come up with, Petyr is using she isn't proficient yet to see the poor results, she sees only one side of it, 2. she at the moment is not under threat of death ( it's hidden from her ) because of where she is.

She definitely knows Myranda is hurt from her tones and words.

I’d sooner marry Lord Petyr. Then I’d be your mother. How little

is his finger, I ask you?”

“The betrothal was my father’s doing,” Alayne protested, as she had a hundred times before. She is only teasing, she told herself… but behind the japes, she could hear the hurt.

I think Myranda's role will be to reveal Sansa's true identity to the Lords of the Vale. We know something will happen in the Vale, and something big. Sansa Stark being revealed in the Vale? That might do the trick to shake the balance LF established. It's also curious that everyone that matters in the Vale's currently in the Gates. That has got to mean something.

[Newstar]

I think Myranda's role will be to reveal Sansa's true identity to the Lords of the Vale. We know something will happen in the Vale, and something big. Sansa Stark being revealed in the Vale? That might do the trick to shake the balance LF established. It's also curious that everyone that matters in the Vale's currently in the Gates. That has got to mean something.

Someone pointed out that the Alayne chapter has a bit of the feel of the PW: the socializing, the seemingly innocent conversations and mindless patter, etc. There's even similar dialogue: Petyr telling Alayne she'll be the most beautiful woman in the hall that night, just as Tyrion told Sansa the same thing before the PW, I think. That suggests that something big is going to happen, if not at the feast itself then soon.

[Newstar]

Again my opinion

Now I want to read what a certain director said about TWOW.

WOTW's sources have confirmed that Jack Bender (the Season 6 director who appeared to have claimed in a Reddit Ask Me Anything that he'd read TWOW) did not in fact read an advance copy of TWOW. He has seen a Season 6 outline, though, which would undoubtedly contain some TWOW spoilers.

If you want to get someone drunk and press them for spoilery details, I'd suggest Alex Graves. He has revealed in a HitFix interview that he got D&D to tell him stuff about future plotlines and even the endgames of the characters and has been spoiling the actors as well:

You can't do anything you don't know what's going on, but then you have to tell your actors what's going on, and they're incredibly grateful for it. A lot of that comes down to sitting down with Dave and Dan and saying, "What happens in season 6? Because I don't know what I'm doing." And they'll tell you what you're doing. I've had many moments with the actors where I've taken them aside and told them, "This is what happens next season" or even at the end of the whole series. And they'll go, "Oh, thank God you told me that. Now I know how to play it."

[Grail King]

Someone pointed out that the Alayne chapter has a bit of the feel of the PW: the socializing, the seemingly innocent conversations and mindless patter, etc. There's even similar dialogue: Petyr telling Alayne she'll be the most beautiful woman in the hall that night, just as Tyrion told Sansa the same thing before the PW, I think. That suggests that something big is going to happen, if not at the feast itself then soon.

Someone said Sansa's idea of guards for SR actually gives LF important hostages, also possibly HH is killed and he whisk Sansa away to WF

the tournament melee

[Colonel Green]

What you did not think she picked up on the mind game Baleish used on her? She quickly tried to put it to use on Theon

No, there's no suggestion that that was a "mind game", let alone her emulating Baelish. When you're confronted with a guy who has been brainwashed into being an obedient servant, it's no mind game to remind him of who he really is, when that's what she was already calling him and is the 'identity' that would be the most use to her.

she then moves to a stick formula and tells Theon she would have done more to him if she could, but instead she went to a reasoning approach and forced him to slip up and reveal the truth ( this is a skill that she learned unconsciously)

There is, again, nothing indicating she was trying to accomplish anything with Theon there. She was just ranting at him for betraying her again. That it actually produced useful information was accidental and unintended, nor does she appear to have done that with any goal of turning Theon to her side, seeing as she is by that point apparently already thinking of using the corkscrew to open the door, which she proceeds with without any further interactions with Theon.

And as for the corkscrew, opening a door is not a useful skill in playing the game of thrones. It is, at most, useful for running away, and she failed at that too.

[Grail King]

No, there's no suggestion that that was a "mind game", let alone her emulating Baelish. When you're confronted with a guy who has been brainwashed into being an obedient servant, it's no mind game to remind him of who he really is, when that's what she was already calling him and is the 'identity' that would be the most use to her.

There is, again, nothing indicating she was trying to accomplish anything with Theon there. She was just ranting at him for betraying her again. That it actually produced useful information was accidental and unintended, nor does she appear to have done that with any goal of turning Theon to her side, seeing as she is by that point apparently already thinking of using the corkscrew to open the door, which she proceeds with without any further interactions with Theon.

And as for the corkscrew, opening a door is not a useful skill in playing the game of thrones. It is, at most, useful for running away, and she failed at that too.

We're going to differ, but here is a fact, she's not there, she escaped, she used what tools and ideas she picked up and used them, she now has info that is important not just for her but for the North and her family and she did most of it herself.