[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIX - The season with no reason

[TheCasualObserver]

Or the book. I don't see why she's marrying Harry either.

The only thing I can guess is she's just a child LF has wrapped around his finger.

I agree to some extent, but the scenario presented in the books is dramatically different for three main reasons.

First, bookSansa is still utterly dependent upon LF, because he has convinced her that keeping her true identity secret is the only way of keeping her safe, with the caveat that revealing herself at the wedding will be what empowers her into becoming Sansa Stark once more. Her show counterpart is actually much less dependent on LF because she can now rely on the support of the Vale Lords and can potentially turn them against LF if he tries to make her do something she doesn't want to do. It was actually something I preferred in the show - it looked as though they were fast tracking Sansa towards political power. Instead they just ignored the power they had given her and turned her back into LF's pawn for plot reasons.

Second, Harry the heir is a known quantity in both temperment (ie, a bit of a shit but nothing unusual for Westerosi standards) and power. Whilst Sansa and he court, he has no capacity to hurt her. Even after the wedding, the Lords of the Vale are potential allies for her, and LF is never far away. Sansa and Harry are together in a very controlled environment which LF holds dominion over.

Third and most importantly, whilst Sansa has no power over LF, she potentially has all the power she wants over Harry the Heir because she is approaching him as the sexual aggressor. Without her big name attached, Sansa is little more than a potential roll in the hay for Harry, which is why she has to use her guile to influence him into accepting the match. There is absolutely no comparison with her role here and showSansa's role in Winterell, which is to be a victim of Ramsay from the get go, with nobody but herself to blame for accepting such a ludicrous proposal from LF to begin with.

[Aleenys]

Agreed, Harry's reputation is a womanizer, unfortunately on the show, as far as Sansa's concerned, Ramsay is a nice guy but son of the man that murdered her family. She gets hints here and there from Myranda but the wedding night she finds out the truth. Sansa had no reason to marry him but at this point in the book and at the point in the show where she finds out about the marriage at Moat Caillin, she thinks she is all alone as far as family goes, she is wanted for Regicide and is supposed to be hiding. She is dependent on Littlefinger in the books but in the show, she has him under her thumb until she is taken outside the Vale and does not question it till Moat Caillin. Book Sansa is much smarter than show Sansa.

Not to mention their banner is a flayed man. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out something must be wrong with them, they flay their enemies.

This storyline made 0 (zero) sense.

[Woman of War]

Nobody in the Winterfell story made decisions which make sense. Sansa married into the Boltons without any plan to either appease or manipulate them. LF gave away his best political asset so that if Cersei wins he can stay in her good books (and then helps topple Cersei). The Boltons split with the Iron throne to gain the support of the northern Lords who never actually showed up.

This storyline exists as an extension of the plot. The absence of the Northern Lords is the perfect example. Somewhere in D and D's writing room it was decided that raping Sansa would provide a shocking moment that has previously made the show so popular, but this also allowed Theon's arc to continue more or less OTL. However, the Northern Lords proved a problem; if they were an active presence within Winterfell, it wouldn't make sense for Sansa not to try and talk to them and potentially stage a coup (which may or may not have been successful but that's not relevant here). But if Sansa did that, it would cut into Theon's story - she hardly needs a crippled Theon to help when there are willing friends of Ned Stark on hand. So the Northern Lords had to be removed, even though that makes the Bolton's acceptance of LF's plan nonsensical, and also means that Sansa has nobody to actually try and play the game of thrones with. So her arc was stillborn immediately.

However, because Stannis is now defeated the good guys need another military force, which is why we're hearing rumours of the Northern Lords being cast for Season 6. Of course, the one time they absolutely would be needed near Winterfell was when Stannis was bearing down on the Boltons, so it makes no sense for them to suddenly appear now - but that doesn't matter, because the plot must function above all else.

So you can defend Sansa's arc this season from the perspective of necessary evils in an adaption, but to do so on grounds of characterization is ludicrous.

I absolutely accept if people dislike Sansa's story because of quite a few inconsistencies like Baelish not knowing about Ramsay and Sansa agreeing to that marriage plot after Baelish convinced her with three sentences. Though I so far disagree and I think that the general idea to put Sansa into Jeyne Poole's storyline is not a bad one, the alternative would have been to store the character for further use in season six. Some posters would have preferred that to what they see as poorly constructed story, I don't. I am convinced that Sansa's story in the books will go into the same direction, with another male character to betray or abuse her.

The benefit of the doubt to showmakers here. And why should Sansa's character development happen without setbacks while all other characters are presented as very fallible, be they Dany, Tyrion or Jon.

What I do not accept is that Sansa more than any other character should be kept out of harm's way from now on because bad things already happened to her. Which one of the main characters did not suffer?! Why is it ok that Jon gets stabbed, on the other hand it is not ok that Sansa gets raped?

There are indeed two ways to critizise the plot:

1. The plot has inconsistencies, might even be poorly constructed

2. The plot makes Sansa suffer and Sansa of all characters should not suffer, well, because she is Sansa and we love her so much.

I can see reasons for the first line of arguing even if I do not completely agree. But I think that the second argument is based on a very personal approach to the character Sansa, an approach not shared by everyone.

[rosehustle1]

I absolutely accept if people dislike Sansa's story because of quite a few inconsistencies like Baelish not knowing about Ramsay and Sansa agreeing to that marriage plot after Baelish convinced her with three sentences. Though I so far disagree and I think that the general idea to put Sansa into Jeyne Poole's storyline is not a bad one, the alternative would have been to store the character for further use in season six. Some posters would have preferred that to what they see as poorly constructed story, I don't. I am convinced that Sansa's story in the books will go into the same direction, with another male character to betray or abuse her.

The benefit of the doubt to showmakers here. And why should Sansa's character development happen without setbacks while all other characters are presented as very fallible, be they Dany, Tyrion or Jon.

What I do not accept is that Sansa more than any other character should be kept out of harm's way from now on because bad things already happened to her. Which one of the main characters did not suffer?! Why is it ok that Jon gets stabbed, on the other hand it is not ok that Sansa gets raped?

There are indeed two ways to critizise the plot:

1. The plot has inconsistencies, might even be poorly constructed

2. The plot makes Sansa suffer and Sansa of all characters should not suffer, well, because she is Sansa and we love her so much.

I can see reasons for the first line of arguing even if I do not completely agree. But I think that the second argument is based on a very personal approach to the character Sansa, an approach not shared by everyone.

I don't think people are saying Sansa cannot suffer. I think people don't like that her suffering made no sense. I also think that like one blogger, Wendy Nerd stated, 'Women are not interchangeable rape dolls." Jeyne and Sansa's story lines were vastly different and represented different things. Jeyne was someone who 'didn't matter' and represented how poorly smallfolk are treated. You feel for her because no one will lift a hand for a girl who isn't really Arya Stark. She represents so many women and girls that 'don't matter' but should matter. Then Theon who is broken down and has everything to lose decides to save a girl 'who doesn't matter' because he sees her as a person beyond her low title. He sees her as a human being with worth. When they put Sansa in that storyline it doesn't work. She is Sansa Stark and already has the name and connections that make her 'matter' to the the other lords. Them placing her in this role diminished the gradual game playing she was learning in the Vale and also diminished Theon's entire arc.

I think the reason they didn't include the Northern Lords was because they knew it wouldn't make sense for them to sit back and let Ramsay rape the real Sansa Stark. It would have been totally illogical. Also killing Mance took away the possibility of the spear wives infiltrating Winterfell to help with rescuing her. They took away the tension of Northern Lords and also any real help. Then Brienne looks completely inept all season. Why would she just wait for a signal? Literally, waiting for a candle light to go on to save someone is a terrible plan. If Sansa is in real trouble she probably won't be able to get to the tower. In addition, Brienne should have been getting intel about WInterfell, utilizing Podrick more, instead of just staring at a tower for six episodes. That was really ridiculous. I kept thinking Podrick would infiltrate WInterfell as a worker, like a spear wife, and give Sansa the means to escape or at least protect herself. Nothing was done.

[Colonel Green]

And why should Sansa's character development happen without setbacks while all other characters are presented as very fallible, be they Dany, Tyrion or Jon.

What I do not accept is that Sansa more than any other character should be kept out of harm's way from now on because bad things already happened to her. Which one of the main characters did not suffer?! Why is it ok that Jon gets stabbed, on the other hand it is not ok that Sansa gets raped?

There are indeed two ways to critizise the plot:

1. The plot has inconsistencies, might even be poorly constructed

2. The plot makes Sansa suffer and Sansa of all characters should not suffer, well, because she is Sansa and we love her so much.

People weren't arguing that Sansa should not suffer. Setting aside all the logic problems, the point is that this plot completely derails Sansa's arc of character/skill growth in favour of resetting her to book 2 Sansa, plot-wise. "Growing pains" implies growth, after all, but Sansa was not growing this season -- she never tried to do anything other than run away, and even that she failed at.

The Boltons split with the Iron throne to gain the support of the northern Lords who never actually showed up.

And Littlefinger and the Vale, who the Boltons immediately forgot about as soon as he leaves, seeing as Ramsay is allowed to imprison her, brutalize her at will, and apparently is making plans to gradually mutilate her, with nobody ever mentioning what her patron, the guy they're supposed to be working with (and whose support they desperately need, given that they've tacitly declared war on the Iron Throne) would think of all this.

It's almost like they know Littlefinger isn't coming back to Winterfell during this plot and is soon to invade, so they don't have to worry about it.

[missingm]

I think the reason they didn't include the Northern Lords was because they knew it wouldn't make sense for them to sit back and let Ramsay rape the real Sansa Stark. It would have been totally illogical. Also killing Mance took away the possibility of the spear wives infiltrating Winterfell to help with rescuing her. They took away the tension of Northern Lords and also any real help. Then Brienne looks completely inept all season. Why would she just wait for a signal? Literally, waiting for a candle light to go on to save someone is a terrible plan. If Sansa is in real trouble she probably won't be able to get to the tower. In addition, Brienne should have been getting intel about WInterfell, utilizing Podrick more, instead of just staring at a tower for six episodes. That was really ridiculous. I kept thinking Podrick would infiltrate WInterfell as a worker, like a spear wife, and give Sansa the means to escape or at least protect herself. Nothing was done.

In the beginning Brienne did have at least one contact inside Winterfell, so she probably wouldn't need Pod inside for intel. She obviously doesn't know anything about Reek, but it could have been a plus to have her see him from a distance in one of the episodes in hindsight, and wonder "Who is that freak?"

Why would there have to be reason in justifying what happened outside of what we have been told on the show? Her being married then escaping would lead to some conflict between Ramsey and his father, possibly lead Ramsey on a quest to hunt her down. Maybe that is what exposes them to an oncoming army from the Vail?

[Colonel Green]

LF will win WF very early in the season. No battle. the Boltons will open their gates for him.

No way will that happen. Most obviously, the Boltons have been raping and torturing Littlefinger's emissary to them; they can't possibly be expecting to remain on friendly terms with him, and they'd have to be dumb to think it innocuous that he suddenly showed up with a huge army.

[faris92]

While I disagree with the rape scene on moral grounds as well as the fact that Sansa is one of my favourite characters (Sophie's such a good actress!), I always view the rape as telling Sansa that the game of thrones is not as easy as she thought it will be. At the beginning of the season, she had a complete makeover, her confidence was very high and she looked like she's finally ready to be a player. Well, she was free from the Lannisters, she had the backing of LF and the Vale, she's also the apparent heir of the North, fiercely loyal to the Starks. If I were her, even I would be confident enough to be a player. That's probably the reason why he accepted LF's ludicrous marriage proposal because she probably thought that she can rally the North for her and started playing the game of thrones. Not to mention that she probably had kept her anger and vengeance long enough that she's impatient to get her revenge.

The rape, to me, laid out the cold hard truth to Sansa that the war is not as easy as she thought it would be. You can't just win the war with you sitting pretty in Winterfell. Dany had to marry the man she did not love, she had to go against her very own principle (pit reopening etc.) and had to suffer various times just for her to be at her current position. Cersei had to lose Myrcella to secure her family's position, she had to walk naked just for Tommen. Not saying that the rape is justified but that's how I view it. It made Sansa realise that she has to give it all if she really wants to be in the game, if she really wants to have her vengeance. This is all IMO. No evidence from the books or the show itself.

[TheCasualObserver]

Yes, they will suddenly become dumb just like LF turned into a retard in S5. Because the plot demands it.

Ex-

Stannis for 48 episodes - I LOVE YOU SHIREEN

Stannis Ep 49 - BURN HER.

Nobody will care about logic because evil Boltons are dead YAY! BEST SHOW EVER!!!!!

If this happens and everyone celebrates "because the Boltons are dead - Hooray!" I will eat my own car keys in anger.

[TheCasualObserver]

While I disagree with the rape scene on moral grounds as well as the fact that Sansa is one of my favourite characters (Sophie's such a good actress!), I always view the rape as telling Sansa that the game of thrones is not as easy as she thought it will be. At the beginning of the season, she had a complete makeover, her confidence was very high and she looked like she's finally ready to be a player. Well, she was free from the Lannisters, she had the backing of LF and the Vale, she's also the apparent heir of the North, fiercely loyal to the Starks. If I were her, even I would be confident enough to be a player. That's probably the reason why he accepted LF's ludicrous marriage proposal because she probably thought that she can rally the North for her and started playing the game of thrones. Not to mention that she probably had kept her anger and vengeance long enough that she's impatient to get her revenge.

The rape, to me, laid out the cold hard truth to Sansa that the war is not as easy as she thought it would be. You can't just win the war with you sitting pretty in Winterfell. Dany had to marry the man she did not love, she had to go against her very own principle (pit reopening etc.) and had to suffer various times just for her to be at her current position. Cersei had to lose Myrcella to secure her family's position, she had to walk naked just for Tommen. Not saying that the rape is justified but that's how I view it. It made Sansa realise that she has to give it all if she really wants to be in the game, if she really wants to have her vengeance. This is all IMO. No evidence from the books or the show itself.

"The game of thrones is not as easy as she'd thought it will be." That's a really idiotic lesson for her to have to learn, under the circumstances. Ignoring the fact that LF's plan makes sense, no 16 year old girl agrees to a marriage for revenge without having any plan or idea how she's going to accomplish anything.

[Woman of War]

Rosehustle , thank you, I'll answer later, I have to work now, sorry

[faris92]

"The game of thrones is not as easy as she'd thought it will be." That's a really idiotic lesson for her to have to learn, under the circumstances. Ignoring the fact that LF's plan makes sense, no 16 year old girl agrees to a marriage for revenge without having any plan or idea how she's going to accomplish anything.

That's the point. Sansa is new to this, she is naive and her past has shown she's really brash/less thoughtful in this kind of decisions (informing Cersei of Ned's plan, completely oblivious that her marriage to Loras can be interrupted anytime, slapping Robert Arryn, being oblivious again to her aunt etc.). Her confidence was elevated because she had LF and the Vale, she probably thought she will have the North as well (LF made it obvious every 5 minutes that the North is hers). She probably had no idea that she was gonna get tortured/raped/mistreated by Ramsay or the fact that the North was so crippled by the war. LF admitted to know very little about Ramsay and he probably did not expect Sansa to be treated that badly as well.

She was so against the wedding that only after LF kicked the trigger of 'you must stop being a bystander, avenge them' that Sansa believed that she can do this. When LF announced that he's leaving for KL, Sansa was shocked. It was only after LF ensured that he will be back and that Stannis will save her that she's relieved. Of course, she had no idea that LF's return will be delayed by Faith Militant or Stannis would be decimated, I don't expect her to see that coming. I believe when Sansa agreed to the marriage, she seemed to have envision things going differently than what she was about to experience. That's why it taught her that the game is not as easy as to rely on other people (she really is dependent on LF's plan).

Although I am quite disappointed as to what happened to Sansa afterwards, she seemed to have slow recovery and her arc really went BS after that. Hopefully, they'll get something fantastic to happen to her in Season 6. She is one of the characters that I really look forward to in Season 6.

[TheCasualObserver]

That's the point. Sansa is new to this, she is naive and her past has shown she's really brash/less thoughtful in this kind of decisions (informing Cersei of Ned's plan, completely oblivious that her marriage to Loras can be interrupted anytime, slapping Robert Arryn, being oblivious again to her aunt etc.). Her confidence was elevated because she had LF and the Vale, she probably thought she will have the North as well (LF made it obvious every 5 minutes that the North is hers). She probably had no idea that she was gonna get tortured/raped/mistreated by Ramsay or the fact that the North was so crippled by the war. LF admitted to know very little about Ramsay and he probably did not expect Sansa to be treated that badly as well.

She was so against the wedding that only after LF kicked the trigger of 'you must stop being a bystander, avenge them' that Sansa believed that she can do this. When LF announced that he's leaving for KL, Sansa was shocked. It was only after LF ensured that he will be back and that Stannis will save her that she's relieved. Of course, she had no idea that LF's return will be delayed by Faith Militant or Stannis would be decimated, I don't expect her to see that coming. I believe when Sansa agreed to the marriage, she seemed to have envision things going differently than what she was about to experience. That's why it taught her that the game is not as easy as to rely on other people (she really is dependent on LF's plan).

Although I am quite disappointed as to what happened to Sansa afterwards, she seemed to have slow recovery and her arc really went BS after that. Hopefully, they'll get something fantastic to happen to her in Season 6. She is one of the characters that I really look forward to in Season 6.

I disagree. One, Sansa going to Wintefell makes no sense for either her, the Boltons or LF. It exists as a function of the plot. Second, Sansa made no attempt to control, manipulate or appease the Boltons. So unless you thinnk it's in keeping with her character to just expect everything to fall into place for her without her doing anything, it's characterization which doesn't make sense, and ultimately makes her look braindead.

[Mladen]

While I disagree with the rape scene on moral grounds as well as the fact that Sansa is one of my favourite characters (Sophie's such a good actress!), I always view the rape as telling Sansa that the game of thrones is not as easy as she thought it will be. At the beginning of the season, she had a complete makeover, her confidence was very high and she looked like she's finally ready to be a player. Well, she was free from the Lannisters, she had the backing of LF and the Vale, she's also the apparent heir of the North, fiercely loyal to the Starks. If I were her, even I would be confident enough to be a player. That's probably the reason why he accepted LF's ludicrous marriage proposal because she probably thought that she can rally the North for her and started playing the game of thrones. Not to mention that she probably had kept her anger and vengeance long enough that she's impatient to get her revenge.

The rape, to me, laid out the cold hard truth to Sansa that the war is not as easy as she thought it would be. You can't just win the war with you sitting pretty in Winterfell. Dany had to marry the man she did not love, she had to go against her very own principle (pit reopening etc.) and had to suffer various times just for her to be at her current position. Cersei had to lose Myrcella to secure her family's position, she had to walk naked just for Tommen. Not saying that the rape is justified but that's how I view it. It made Sansa realise that she has to give it all if she really wants to be in the game, if she really wants to have her vengeance. This is all IMO. No evidence from the books or the show itself.

So please tell me when can we expect every other female player to be raped? The argument "Sansa needed to got raped in order to find out some "cold" truths" is borderline nonsensical. Sansa has been suffering through a number of bad things and adding rape served no purpose. Did it make Sansa realize anything that she wasn't aware before that? Absolutely not. Did it make smarter or more mature in any way? Absolutely not and the mere idea of that is disgusting.

Basically, this argument also needs sort of proof. Like, if you claim that rape laid out something to Sansa, then tell us how it affected her and how it changed her. And then of course, we will deal with the disgusting notion of rape serving as some sort of lesson for Sansa.

[PureGold]

I am convinced that Sansa's story in the books will go into the same direction, with another male character to betray or abuse her.

As am I. "Sansa continues to suffer" "Sansa continues to make mistakes like she did in season 2" Waahhhhhhh. It's surreal. No wonder D&D don't pay too much attention to online criticism.

Sansa is pretty much Littlefinger's side kick in the books right now. She will operate and maneuver upon direction from HIM. If you take LF away from her I have know doubt she would flounder. That's what happened in the show. She was confident and assured when she had his backing, she knows he killed a monstrous King, outplayed the likes of Tywin, Cersei and Tyrion. She knew or was confident that she was of value to him on a sexual level if nothing else and felt secure with that knowledge. When he left Winterfell she was at a loss, I don't think she would have gone if she thought LF was going to leave her there.

I also imagine she thought the alliance between the Boltons and Littlefinger would offer her some protection. Had she been in Kings Landing with anyone other than Joffrey she would have been correct, but she's not in the south anymore. Ramsay is a monster who's dangerous thanks to a mixture of unparalleled savagery and the cunning of a predator.

I can't bother taking to heart the OT complaining about how this derails Sansa's arc or overreaching story until SOMEONE shows me the quote where GRRM said so. Or they are going to have to tell me WHERE the Sansa character ends up at the end of ASOIAF since they CLEARLY know. If they can't provide those things than it's just people being pissed that things didn't go the way they want or the way people think they should with the character. And in that case I can't blame D&D for no doubt thinking, "cry me a river."

Pointing to the sample TWOW Alayne chapter just tells where Sansa is in the beginning, in ASOS she started off having tea with House Tyrell and becoming unofficially betrothed to Willas Tyrell. She ended up in a VASTLY different place. The same thing could and likely will happen in book 6. In the show she's now married, no longer a maiden and truly on her own with absolutely NO political backing. That is not where or who she was in Season 2.

I think the show demonstrates Sansa will get married again, lose her maiden head and it is very likely to be in a volatile manner. We as readers don't know what Harry the Heir is REALLY like, we only know his reputation. We also didn't realize just how much of a villain Lysa Arryn was until we spent more time with her, I have know doubt the same will prove true for Harry (and I actually liked Sansa's interaction with him).

And I thought it made total sense for LF to return to Kings Landing because Cersei SUMMONED him. She's not out of power yet and he wanted to make sure she had know reason to suspect he was up to anything to ambitious. She was under the impression he was at the Eyrie. I think the Ramsay/Sansa marriage may have gone differently if LF had stayed although maybe it wouldn't have, I think he had every intention of staying with Sansa but again the Dowager Queen called and he's isn't able to tell her to screw off quite yet.

[Lord Freypie]

So please tell me when can we expect every other female player to be raped? The argument "Sansa needed to got raped in order to find out some "cold" truths" is borderline nonsensical. Sansa has been suffering through a number of bad things and adding rape served no purpose. Did it make Sansa realize anything that she wasn't aware before that? Absolutely not. Did it make smarter or more mature in any way? Absolutely not and the mere idea of that is disgusting.

Basically, this argument also needs sort of proof. Like, if you claim that rape laid out something to Sansa, then tell us how it affected her and how it changed her. And then of course, we will deal with the disgusting notion of rape serving as some sort of lesson for Sansa.

As I wouldn't be surprised if Daenerys-without-dragon is set to "be empowered" by half a Dothraki khalazar in early s6 only to trigger her "fire and blood" evolution, and then be rescued as a good damsel in distress, I'm not that sure Sansa treatment will remain the worse.

I even had a vision of the inside the episode justifications "this idea was suggested in the books, if it was only his brother imaging this scenario", "it actually happens to some minor character Daenerys often think about", "it was more adapted to tv-medium than diarrhea", etc....

[Woman of War]

I don't think people are saying Sansa cannot suffer. I think people don't like that her suffering made no sense. I also think that like one blogger, Wendy Nerd stated, 'Women are not interchangeable rape dolls." Jeyne and Sansa's story lines were vastly different and represented different things. Jeyne was someone who 'didn't matter' and represented how poorly smallfolk are treated. You feel for her because no one will lift a hand for a girl who isn't really Arya Stark. She represents so many women and girls that 'don't matter' but should matter. Then Theon who is broken down and has everything to lose decides to save a girl 'who doesn't matter' because he sees her as a person beyond her low title. He sees her as a human being with worth. When they put Sansa in that storyline it doesn't work. She is Sansa Stark and already has the name and connections that make her 'matter' to the the other lords. Them placing her in this role diminished the gradual game playing she was learning in the Vale and also diminished Theon's entire arc

........

This is a valid criticism but not about Sansa as character. It is about the women who don't matter but who should and it is about Theon.

And it is about hypocrisy. Not you are the hypocrite, obviously, but those who think the rape story is only outrageous because Sansa is concerned. Those posters were ok with Martin's writing since the story was basically about Theon and Jeyne was a tool to allow Theon's character to develop. And Theon's development would be diminished when he supports a girl he knows and may have liked instead of having the strength to support some servant's daughter.

In that case you believe that Sansa has been instumentalized for Theon. I do not agree. I think the show has developed a plot according to what Martin will write in a similiar manner and they have used an already existing version. Thus taking away the focus from that anonymous abused girl who is treated like millions of forced prostitutes and women enslaved by forced and arranged marriages in our world. That might be sad but only because it shifts away the focus from Jeyne who deserves just as much pity as Sansa.

But I believe that a similiar story will happen to Sansa in the books and that in the end focusing on Sansa instead of forgetting about her being in the Vale will offer more to viewers in shaping Sansa into an even more interesting character.

And critics about Sansa's not existing development away from being victim may be very premature since Martin might write just the same: She will still stay Littlefinger's pawn for a while and then she might turn into a force to reckon with - or not.

A work of fiction that takes a female protagonist seriously does not necessarily have to give her an uplifting story, does not have to make her to be successful, needs not present her as someone learning from mistakes and for sure does not have to present her as gloriously overcoming limitations of the world she lives in. Remember Tess d'Urbervilles, Anna Karenina and Effi Briest. In describing where these women failed, where they got damaged, even killed by their society the autors unveiled the oppressive structures they were confronted with. No, we may like a good ending for female characters in fiction but it is no more likely than for women in our world, and certainly not very likely for women in a timesetting like Martin's. If Sansa continues to be a victim she shares the fate of 90 percent of the women in her world.

Yes, we root for her to get herself out of that mess and we may project, with story hindsight and present day ideas in our heads, our potential decisions on her, that we would never have been so stupid for example. But Martin on one hand and the show on the other hand have given her a fictional life of her own where our hopes and wishes are irrelevant.

[Newstar]

Sansa is pretty much Littlefinger's side kick in the books right now. She will operate and maneuver upon direction from HIM. If you take LF away from her I have know doubt she would flounder. That's what happened in the show. She was confident and assured when she had his backing, she knows he killed a monstrous King, outplayed the likes of Tywin, Cersei and Tyrion. She knew or was confident that she was of value to him on a sexual level if nothing else and felt secure with that knowledge. When he left Winterfell she was at a loss, I don't think she would have gone if she thought LF was going to leave her there.

The funny thing about Book Sansa is that as she's written, she needs a man to tell her what to do, and those so eager to play armchair psychologist with D&D and speculate about how a Sansa-type girl must have been mean to them in high school--which is hilarious to me, never change, fandom--would do well to look at what it says about GRRM that that's what he writes. In fact, like with Arianne, for whom things go horribly until she decides to meekly follow her father's lead, Sansa's worst blunder occurs where she exercises her "agency," acts against the advice of her patriarch: running to Cersei. Let's review:

Sandor: Tells her how to deal with Joffrey in AGOT

Dontos: Tells her what to do, gives her a ready-made escape plan, and prepares her for escape in ACOK and ASOS

Littlefinger: Tells her what to do in ASOS, AFFC and the TWOW sample chapter

Frankly, if Book Sansa were ever deprived of a man to guide her every move, all indications are that she would be floundering as much as TV Sansa is now. That TV Sansa is fucking up in Winterfell without a man on her shoulder to tell her exactly how to respond and a powerful man to protect her interests is entirely in character, not some sort of regression. I'm actually very interested in how TV Sansa might develop without the benefit of Littlefinger's protection or advice, although I agree she hasn't been at all impressive to date in the show.

You raise an interesting point about TV Sansa's confidence when she has Littlefinger's backing. Tywin's kids are like that, too: prior to his death, they talk a great game and are exceedingly smug because they know that big, scary Tywin has a vested interest in their wellbeing and will move mountains to bail them out of tough spots. Tyrion and Jaime's go-to line in captivity is "Tywin will fuck you up if you touch me and he will make you rich if you help me." Sansa in 4x08 knows that she has Littlefinger's protection and that he will go to great lengths for her, so she can swan around with supreme confidence. In Season 5, when she's with Littlefinger, for the most part, she's very confident and calm, and coolly needles Littlefinger. When Littlefinger is out of the picture, all that self-possession goes out the window, and it makes sense if her loss of cool has to do with her knowledge that Littlefinger is no longer around to protect her.

[Mladen]

I can't bother taking to heart the OT complaining about how this derails Sansa's arc or overreaching story until SOMEONE shows me the quote where GRRM said so. Or they are going to have to tell me WHERE the Sansa character ends up at the end of ASOIAF since they CLEARLY know. If they can't provide those things than it's just people being pissed that things didn't go the way they want or the way people think they should with the character. And in that case I can't blame D&D for no doubt thinking, "cry me a river."

I would like now to direct you to read ASOIAF where you will find that Sansa is nowhere near Wintefell and that there is a character Jeyne Poole in it. This derails Sansa's arc because, as GRRM has written it, it is not her arc. Plain and simple.

[PureGold]

I would like now to direct you to read ASOIAF where you will find that Sansa is nowhere near Wintefell and that there is a character Jeyne Poole in it. This derails Sansa's arc because, as GRRM has written it, it is not her arc. Plain and simple.

So she won't be assaulted or suffer a horrendous marriage in TWOW. Thank you so much for assuring me. I was on the edge of my seat with worry. But knowing that you can guarantee NONE of that will happen to the Sansa character is a relief.

You raise an interesting point about TV Sansa's confidence when she has Littlefinger's backing. Tywin's kids are like that, too: prior to his death, they talk a great game and are exceedingly smug because they know that big, scary Tywin has a vested interest in their wellbeing and will move mountains to bail them out of tough spots. Tyrion and Jaime's go-to line in captivity is "Tywin will fuck you up if you touch me and he will make you rich if you help me." Sansa in 4x08 knows that she has Littlefinger's protection and that he will go to great lengths for her, so she can swan around with supreme confidence. In Season 5, when she's with Littlefinger, for the most part, she's very confident and calm, and coolly needles Littlefinger. When Littlefinger is out of the picture, all that self-possession goes out the window, and it makes sense if her loss of cool has to do with her knowledge that Littlefinger is no longer around to protect her.

I thought that was VERY believable. LF proved he's one of the baddest operators around. I couldn't blame her for thinking she had finally "arrived", she clearly didn't know about the fate that Roz met or how he disposes of bad investments. She thought the most dangerous man was on her side no matter what. And tip of the hat to you over the Lannister Parallel.

I was impressed with her during 4X08. I thought it was shrewd and a maneuver I could see her pulling off around people that didn't know her. Or have any reason to doubt her. She fed them honesty and crafted her "embellishments" around that. But the Boltons aren't interested in tea parties or courtesies. Different animals that don't care WHO is mistreated or brutalized, be they high or low. Whatever serves them best is what they'll do.