[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XIX - The season with no reason

[OldGimletEye]

The Vale plot line was boring and uninteresting to many readers compared to the rest of the series' plots. It would've been considered pretty lackluster TV by most of the viewership. The problem is they fucked up the Winterfell plot...Sansa really doesn't do anything, Reek does one thing in Episode 10, Miranda is a horrible character, Ramsay is too comical to really take seriously, Roose does basically nothing, the Northerners do nothing despite claiming "You have friends here, the North remembers" while apparently only one person seemingly remebers and they die halfway through. There is no tension shown between other Northern houses and the Boltons, the Freys have apparently disappeared, nobody knows what happened to Karstark, Umber, Manderly, or any other Northern house. Brienne spends 9 episodes waiting for a candle to be lit for some reason which is such a preposterous plot that I can't believe they thought it would work.

It was potentially great to have Sansa in WF as long as they did more than have her get raped and have Theon be weak by actually showing the interesting parts of the Boltons' tenuous occupation of Winterfell. There was plenty of opportunity to make a more compelling story than the books provided but they rushed through it cheaply.

Perhaps the Vale plotline would have been a bit boring to TV show watchers. For the sake of argument, I'll grant you that.

But, notice how I said "compared to Winterhell". I think it's hard to argue that Sansa's plotline in WInterhell was a vast improvement over her book Vale story line.

Also, of course, there is the issue of whether putting Sansa in Winterfell could have been salvaged in any circumstance. Getting her in Winterfell, while it was occupied by the Boltons, would have taken a few leaps in logic no matter how D & D decided to do it. And it probably would have been at the cost of her character development as well.

The moral of the story: Don't fuck with something, unless you know exactly what you're doing.

[Mladen]

They had hundreds of good lines they simply decided to throw aside because somehow "bad pussy" is better than "Jared of House Frey I name you a liar".

Wow... Just that perspective... Wow...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Wow... Just that perspective... Wow...

It's just like... I can't even :lol:

Remember when we all were joking about how Jon's last line would be "Olly"? Well... yeah.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Perhaps the Vale plotline would have been a bit boring to TV show watchers. For the sake of argument, I'll grant you that.

But, notice how I said "compared to Winterhell". I think it's hard to argue that Sansa's plotline in WInterhell was a vast improvement over her book Vale story line.

Also, of course, there is the issue of whether putting Sansa in Winterfell could have been salvaged in any circumstance. Getting her in Winterfell, while it was occupied by the Boltons, would have taken a few leaps in logic no matter how D & D decided to do it. And it probably would have been at the cost of her character development as well.

The moral of the story: Don't fuck with something, unless you know exactly what you're doing.

They obviously think they know what they're doing, though. The problem is the show has become rushed, they will skip over everything that isn't vitally important to the endgame just to simplify things and finish as quickly as they can. I won't deny that AFFC/ADWD failed in regards to moving the story along at a reasonable pace, but D&D took it to an extreme level when simplifying the story, focusing on large events rather than the characters and the dialogue.

[Survivor92]

They couldn't even find an excuse for Theon to say he should have died at the RW with Robb. That was a brilliant line, laid at the writers' feet, that would have amazing emotional resonance with very little effort and they didn't include it. What a baffling decision.

They also had the potential of all the Heart tree scenes with Theon that I'm sure the actor could've pulled off fantastically. It wasn't just Sansa who was ruined this season, there's also a lot of wasted potential with Theon.

I agree that the Vale plotline in the books is a bit boring and quite hard to portray on television. But given the massive changes they made anyway, what's to stop them from making the Vale more interesting? Since they ditched the Riverlands plot, they could've had Edmure Tully and/or the Blackfish arriving in the Vale and give them some interactions with Sansa. With the removal of LSH, they could've let Sansa exact some revenge on the Freys. Not as undead Sansa but just let her order Blackfish/Edmure/Vale soldiers to do what LSH does in the books (but less blunt/insane of course).

Out of the many problems with the show, my main issue with it is that D&D don't understand that you have to give your audience hope. Sansa&Theon jumping off Winterfell after their horrible character arcs does not fall under this category.

It's okay if a lot of bad things happen to (semi)good people but there always needs to remain hope. Having Sansa plotting her revenge and learning the game in the Vale would've been great to counter FTW, Stannis' failure, the mess in KL etc.

[OldGimletEye]

They obviously think they know what they're doing, though. The problem is the show has become rushed, they will skip over everything that isn't vitally important to the endgame just to simplify things and finish as quickly as they can. I won't deny that AFFC/ADWD failed in regards to moving the story along at a reasonable pace, but D&D took it to an extreme level when simplifying the story, focusing on large events rather than the characters and the dialogue.

Well, I guess it's better D & D got in the show writing business, rather than getting into the bomb disposal business.

Dan: Fuck Dave, I'm going to cut this wire.

Dave: Yeah, that seems right. Do it!

Kaboom!!!!!!

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Well, I guess it's better D & D got in the show writing business, rather than getting into the bomb disposal business.

Dan: Fuck Dave, I'm going to cut this wire.

Dave: Yeah, that seems right. Do it!

Kaboom!!!!!!

Think back to Season 1 though. Invented scenes were usually quite good. Cersei and Robert's talk was well written, for example. Despite people hating Ros, her scene with Theon was great, it actually did more than the books to setup Theon's conflict with being a Greyjoy/Stark. Varys and LF scenes were very good. Jaime and Tywin was EXCELLENT yet completely invented. The same guys who wrote that Tywin and Jaime exchange wrote "Bad pussy" is that believable? So what changed from now and then?

In Season 2 we had a pretty weak Dany storyline but honestly I hated it in the books too. Jon/Ygritte we're told was mainly because filming in Iceland was terrible but I thought even the dialogue there was reasonably good. I'm not really sure when everything started going downhill from a pure writing perspective. It's like they fell out of love with their own show and just started half assing it.

[The Northern Scholar]

They obviously think they know what they're doing, though. The problem is the show has become rushed, they will skip over everything that isn't vitally important to the endgame just to simplify things and finish as quickly as they can. I won't deny that AFFC/ADWD failed in regards to moving the story along at a reasonable pace, but D&D took it to an extreme level when simplifying the story, focusing on large events rather than the characters and the dialogue.

Except this isn't the case because 5 seasons in they're still spending tons of time on show-only characters and gratuitous scenes that don't advance the plot. Do we really need 5 minutes of blatant foreshadowing with Olly every episode?

[Corgi Targaryen]

How does everyone see this as pointless? Obviously it's a huge departure from the books. I haven't read any of the material that has been released for Winds of Winter because I want to be surprised when it actually comes out. :). If I was watching the show as unsullied there's a clear arc for her and for Theon. Sansa had that huge moment last season where she came down the stairs, whatever. She then realized it's not that easy. You can't just flip a switch and be a player. I don't see how the rape was pointless. She was in Winterfell, marrying Ramsay. She knew what that meant. She knew what it meant when she married Tyrion, but Tyrion wasn't going to touch her. Doesn't mean he didn't want to. Sansa finally made choices, she knew when she saw Moat Calin that she was going North. That whatever awaited her there was not going to be pretty. Granted the whole act of it would have happened whether she wanted to or not but she did what she had to do to stay alive. I don't view her as a victim. I think that we tend to look at these things through 21st century glasses. Sansa at King's Landing would have never grabbed that cork screw, never would have said anything to Theon. Sansa was instrumental in Theon's "de-Reekization." She reminded him of who he was, he admitted that he didn't kill her brothers and he threw Myranda off of the battlements to save her. Myranda isn't as terrifying as Ramsay is but he knew the implications of throwing her off the wall meant the wrath of Ramsay would come down upon him when he returns. Now we get Sansa potentially leading the Northerners rebellion against the Boltons instead of the Northern Lords. Maybe meeting up with Davos and BriPod to search for Rickon and Bran? We all know they are not going to find Bran but maybe they'll find Rickon.

[A Ghost of Someone]

And if they use next season to warp up ADWD in the North, how are they going to fit TWOW+ADWD in just one final season?

I think, unless Sansa is instrumental in a Stark restoration in the books (if such a thing happens, that's it), then both Sansa and Theon have been killed in the show

I think you nailed it. Sansa's purpose tv show wise, has to be to bring back her family, the one think she rejected with inpunity in Season one and cost her dearly (she chose Joff over family in the orginal manuscript and cost her dearly).

[A Ghost of Someone]

Yeah, it's almost as though agreeing to that is something Roose "I need certain assurances" Bolton would never do and that the entire marriage plot was devoid of all logic for every party involved :dunno: .

OHHH YEAHHH :agree:

[A Ghost of Someone]

She isn't learning politics in the Vale. She is learning to organise social events and to do whatever LF says.

She is surviving and unlike the show, she is somewhat safe as a virgin because her unconsummated marriage to the imp has to be annulled by the High Septon and not just washed away because she is a virgin.

[TheCasualObserver]

How does everyone see this as pointless? Obviously it's a huge departure from the books. I haven't read any of the material that has been released for Winds of Winter because I want to be surprised when it actually comes out. :). If I was watching the show as unsullied there's a clear arc for her and for Theon. Sansa had that huge moment last season where she came down the stairs, whatever. She then realized it's not that easy. You can't just flip a switch and be a player. I don't see how the rape was pointless. She was in Winterfell, marrying Ramsay. She knew what that meant. She knew what it meant when she married Tyrion, but Tyrion wasn't going to touch her. Doesn't mean he didn't want to. Sansa finally made choices, she knew when she saw Moat Calin that she was going North. That whatever awaited her there was not going to be pretty. Granted the whole act of it would have happened whether she wanted to or not but she did what she had to do to stay alive. I don't view her as a victim. I think that we tend to look at these things through 21st century glasses. Sansa at King's Landing would have never grabbed that cork screw, never would have said anything to Theon. Sansa was instrumental in Theon's "de-Reekization." She reminded him of who he was, he admitted that he didn't kill her brothers and he threw Myranda off of the battlements to save her. Myranda isn't as terrifying as Ramsay is but he knew the implications of throwing her off the wall meant the wrath of Ramsay would come down upon him when he returns. Now we get Sansa potentially leading the Northerners rebellion against the Boltons instead of the Northern Lords. Maybe meeting up with Davos and BriPod to search for Rickon and Bran? We all know they are not going to find Bran but maybe they'll find Rickon.

There is a difference between "flip a switch and be a player" and "thinking you can marry into your enemies and control them". Sansa is frankly dumb this season because the plot needed her to be. The relative safety of the Vale is the far safer place for her, yet she can't create a single cogent argument against LF in favour of staying put. Sansa really should have married Robyn Arryn if she had any sense at all; a powerful Lord who is easy to control who lives in a safe environment.

But because the show needs a female victim for Theon to empathize with, she is forced into Winterfell for no reason.

[A Ghost of Someone]

The true main character in and around Winterfell, in the world of D&D and Cogman (he was the real architect of the Ramsay-Sansa story) was and is RAMSAY. Sansa is beloved and Theon is not, Sansa was the guarantied "buy in" to the Northern plotline. They had to have her there to be raped but not show "too much" but let us "hear it" and see Theon watching the act, enough to break our hearts, give nightmares and have her loose her virginity by rape but this was shock and awe with a hook into our hearts and souls. Now, with Stannis rediculously defeated, they apparently want to milk the RAMSAY badass story as much as they can until Littlefinger arrives and replaces him. Both are evil but with different modus aperendi. Sansa was just as much of a plot device as her wedding night horror rape and the following ones we mercifully did not have to hear or see.

[The Eunuch]

Do we really need 5 minutes of blatant foreshadowing with Olly every episode?

5 minutes in every episode, really? Why not say 25 minutes? :rolleyes:

[Woman of War]

Let's start with Martin doesn't go this road with Sansa at all. Martin didn't put Sansa in Winterfell. She's at the Vale as of now. Who did put her there was D&D. This is their storyline. The same way they chose to kill Stannis by making him a one-dimensional monster and to apparently "kill" off Jon by Olly-stabbing. Any comparison to George's writing at this point comes off badly.

Second, the argument wasn't about Sansa's chances of being pregnant, but the time she was married with Ramsay. She might be pregnant even with her ten days of rape. But in no way is sex=pregnancy. And considering no evidence of such thing, I don't see it happening.

We simply do not know what Martin intends to write. But I am quite sure Sansa won't be pregnant in the show if she isn't in the books. And a small hint might be that in this first outline of the story by Martin Sansa indeed gets pregnant by "the enemy".

I simply tried to help out concerning the question if Sansa could be pregnant after that jump and when she might find out. But I don't know more than you and you don't know more than I do. And I will wait and see, and since I believe we will get TWOW before the next series there is no point in getting heated about this topic.

[Woman of War]

I can't blame D&D for scrapping Sansa's shitty AFFC material. It was dull as dirt in the books and would have been even duller in the show. Her TWOW chapter is even worse; not only is it boring, but I've seen more compelling writing and better dialogue in Sweet Valley High books. If anyone thought it was good, it would only be because they'd been deprived of new material for so long. McDonald's is objectively shitty food, but if you've been in a state of prolonged famine, that quarter pounder, however awful it might be in any other context, will be the best thing you've ever tasted.

That isn't to say that her Season 5 arc is exempt from criticism, since they could have done any number of things when they rightly decided to scrap her book material. However, the decision to discard her book material was above reproach and the only right choice.

I think with this chapter Martin is playing games with us, making us believe that Sansa is safe for now and will have some lighthearted girl's adventures to look forward to. While in the next chapters she will suffer gruesome events that are no less horrible than her marriage to Ramsay.

And yes, I by far prefer show Sansa to book Sansa, Sophie Turner has a huge part here. And her Winterfell story was very dense and well done in the show though I would have liked to hear more about her motives to agree to Baelish with so little compunction.

[The Northern Scholar]

5 minutes in every episode, really? Why not say 25 minutes? :rolleyes:

A bit of hyperbole, yes. But my point is still quite valid. Claiming the show needs to make all these cuts to streamline the plot is inconsistent with what we're actually seeing on screen. Unless something like the Missandei/Grew Worm romance is central to the end game.

[A Ghost of Someone]

I think with this chapter Martin is playing games with us, making us believe that Sansa is safe for now and will have some lighthearted girl's adventures to look forward to. While in the next chapters she will suffer gruesome events that are no less horrible than her marriage to Ramsay.

And yes, I by far prefer show Sansa to book Sansa, Sophie Turner has a huge part here. And her Winterfell story was very dense and well done in the show though I would have liked to hear more about her motives to agree to Baelish with so little compunction.

I agree with you on Sophie Turner, there is no doubt that the show runners are well aware of her growing appeal, and her age makes her more diverse in the future. She is marketable and they know it.

[Colonel Green]

Didn't a similar fall paralyze Bran from the waist down? I'm sure something will happen to Theon and Sansa, most likely an injury at least.

Also what is their game plan after hitting the ground? Run? Any time now, Ramsay will be back at Winterfell on horseback. Assuming he approaches the opposite side of Winterfell so he can't see them fall, he'll still discover Miranda's death and that Sansa and Reek are missing. Don't forget how he likes to hunt people down with hounds.

So you have Sansa and Theon with injured legs, no tree cover for a fair distance away, and Ramsay with horses and hounds. Doesn't look good. I suppose their best bet is Brienne to the rescue. Where will Brienne even take Sansa though, back to Tarth? Nowhere else is safe that I can think of.

It should happen, and judging from the way the scene was shot--no big piles of snow, an awfully high jump--that seems to be the way they're going. I don't buy this idea that "Theon and Sansa will walk away unscathed because plot." If that's what they were setting up, in my opinion, the jump wouldn't have been as high and the snow would have been a lot deeper. It doesn't mean that Theon and/or Sansa will necessarily die or suffer horrible injuries, the way that a jump from that height normally would cause, BUT it suggests that they won't just stroll away and won't be in any shape to make a run for it.

That's simply illogical. Characters who "won't be in any shape to make a run for it" would be immediately recaptured, thus completely defeating the point of them escaping. There will be no leg injuries.

We simply do not know what Martin intends to write. But I am quite sure Sansa won't be pregnant in the show if she isn't in the books. And a small hint might be that in this first outline of the story by Martin Sansa indeed gets pregnant by "the enemy".

Ur-Sansa had a child by Joffrey, but that was part of her original arc with Joffrey, which in the books that were eventually written has already happened; she's progressed to a different phase (which may or may not even have existed in the ur-version).

There's also (and this is a reason I consider it quite unlikely, not just in Sansa's case, but regarding all the various theories people have for this series that involve children being born during the main events) the fact that GRRM has taken five books to advance the course of events by about 2 1/2 years, at most. I'm dubious that there's any room in the remaining books for nine-month pregnancies (at least until epilogues or whatever).