evita mgfs

BRAN’S GROWING POWERS AFTER his FINAL POV in ADwD

434 posts in this topic

53 minutes ago, LmL said:

Oh boy!! I love this debate!! Ooh ooh ooh, teacher pick me! 

So, I fall in between you two. I do not tend to look for 'proof' Martin has read something (i.e. an interview where he says "I drew influence from Zoroastrianism," which is something he has said fwiw). My rule of thumb is to simply look for multiple correlations - specific callouts to a myth or fable. I have found enough influences which are clearly, clearly spelled out to feel safe concluding that "when GRRM uses an influence, he makes multiple clear allusions to the thing referenced." For example, the wren / Renly thing. I read the analysis by BT, and I am on the fence, slightly leaning towards "nay," but we don't really have to wonder. All we need to do is a word search on "wren" and look at those passages. If martin is alluding to wren's day he won't do it simply by calling Renly Renly, according to my way of thinking. He will do something in a passage with 'wren' which alludes to Renly.  

@ravenous reader makes a good point. When we are talking about the more common universal myths like the horned nature god or cosmic world axis tree, it is worthwhile to educate ourselves on the general mythology, and we don't necessarily always have to be slaves to the question of "is this specifically referenced in the text?" Now, granted, you know I am a big proponent of using that question as a guide, certainly, and I think it's helpful to distinguish between useful background info (or poems / stories that, say, "remind" you of ASOIAF) and things which we think might be specifically referenced. But at the same time, the more we know about horned lord mythology, the better we can grasp the overall context in which martin is writing his version of this idea, and buffing up on horned lord myth in general will help us eventually spot the specific books or myths he might be calling out to. And I think it's clear the poetry angle has been really enjoyable for a lot of people; that's been a very popular and enthusiastic thread. We have made some discoveries that way also, even if I complain about being a little loose with the analysis (THAT'S A F*CKING JOKE RR CHILL OUT lol)

In general, I tend to think that GRRM is VERY well versed in mythology (from all around the world) and literature, and seems familiar with all the classics, most aspects of the 60's counterculture, a ton of Marvel comics from the 60's and 70's and lots of cartoons and comics in general, obviously all the old sci-fi, obviously Tolkien and Robert Jordan.  Honestly once I found the detailed and specific call-outs to Sun-Wukong and a few mesoamerican deities, I became convinced that it is farrrrrrr more likely we are all underestimating him than the opposite. I think @ravenous reader will agree with me here. I know @Daendrew will too.

In other words, something like the Golden Bough is almost certainly in Martin's purview. I actually wasn't aware of what that book even was until recently, but having looked into it, yeah, it's likely he is familiar with it. And the Mormont / wormwood thing, I wouldn't dismiss that BT. Wormwood is exactly the kind of thing Martin would be interested in. I would like to look into that one more.  

Great take, @LmL

Thanks for the information on your "rule of thumb" of looking for multiple correlations to a specific myth, tale, or fable. While is seems obvious that George is grabbing from horn lord stuff I have always been curious as to how you decide whether to go with other myths, tales, or fables in regards to how it may relate to ASOIAF. It's good information for me (and probably others) to know.

A point I wanted to bring up to everyone... Isn't one of the reasons this community is so amazing and fun is that we can throw in a comment/comparison to a work that George may be influenced by and see what sticks? In my view: if there isn't a correlation I don't see it as an issue. Any mind smart enough to discover even a possible correlation is also a mind that is probably smart enough to know when to let it go. Also, if a correlation has some sticking to it there are so many other great minds that as a community we can piece together what this correlation might mean. 

Hopefully this makes sense.

Edited by OtherFromAnotherMother

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1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Any mind smart enough to discover even a possible correlation is also a mind that is probably smart enough to know when to let it go.

:rofl:YOU MUST BE JOKING :rofl:

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

A point I wanted to bring up to everyone... Isn't one of the reasons this community is so amazing and fun is that we can throw in a comment/comparison to a work that George may be influenced by and see what sticks?

 

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Also, if a correlation has some sticking to it there are so many other great minds that as a community we can piece together what this correlation might mean. 

Yes, kidding aside, you're exactly right. That's absolutely been my experience. Westeros.org is much better at that than, say, reddit, where crackpot ideas or very, very simple observations get highly upvoted but anything longer than 5 paragraphs doesn't have a chance. The forums here are great for prolonged cooperation and teamwork, there's nothing like it. 

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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Don't worry.  We are all longing to spank you!

Don't make me laugh.  You are a 'moderate'...?

Actually yes, I am eminently reasonable. I like to stretch the imagination and creativity - it's necessary to follow Martin's ideas - but I also demand a high standard of proof and reasonability. I am trying (with my podcast) to coax more skeptical and rationally minded people into the murky see of symbolism and esoterica. I constantly make choices about what ideas are too weird to roll out right away, how many weir ideas to put it, how to break them in, that sort of thing. I consider myself a go-between between us lunatics and the regular ASOIAF fans / readers / watchers. 

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

 

As we've discovered with our Fearless Leader Trump, all we have to do is convince enough people of our point, regardless of merit.  So, I will continue with my 'project' until someone stops me.  (Will that be you, lucifer?)

I have only one thing to say to you 'Lucifer'--

My recalcitrant Nennymoans await you as their Nennymoaner-in-Chief!

A new god shall be born from the charnel pits and unpublished wordpress clippings... ;)

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Oh yes.  He is laughing at us.  :) (and at the same time a little proud).

No doubt, Martin has partaken of the wormwood, as have I...

Congratulations on making a post that is basically 97% innuendo - you never fail to impress me all over again.

Did you happen to listen to the interview I did with a podcast called Super Geeky Play Date?  You'd find some of it interesting I think, you daytripper you. 

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1 hour ago, LmL said:
2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Any mind smart enough to discover even a possible correlation is also a mind that is probably smart enough to know when to let it go.

:rofl:YOU MUST BE JOKING :rofl:

Haha! I didn't realize how that would read.

I should have added: continuing to insist on a non existent correlation would cause others to question the "smartness" of that mind.

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18 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Haha! I didn't realize how that would read.

I should have added: continuing to insist on a non existent correlation would cause others to question the "smartness" of that mind.

LoL yeah I knew what you were getting at, I just couldn't help myself. Many-a-smartness has been questioned. ;)

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On ‎09‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 8:17 PM, ravenous reader said:

Thanks Wizz!  Enjoyed collaborating with you on the whole project immensely -- that is until, alas, I 'lost' you to your dogged down-delvings in the insatiable belly of the hollow hills, from which there has been no turning back...  :)

P.S.  I've figured out where you must be residing...it has to be in that mysterious floating castle at Greywater Watch (likely to be a sort of 'driftwood' structure made of weirwood, like the Bower, don't you think?)...because not even raven(ou)s can find it!

Same here, great fun.  :D

Haha, 'tis true I've yet to really re-emerge from the hollow hills.  I want to explore them thoroughly, and these tunnels go on for miles I'll have you know.  :P  Greywater Watch seems a good choice, and I do have green eyes.  Our delay in finishing the series did lead to much punning, nennymoaning, and posting with naughty greenseers on your part, so every cloud and all that.  Oh, and an awesome poetry thread. :D  [Excuse me as I try to deflect my down-delvings]   :ph34r:

On ‎09‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 8:17 PM, ravenous reader said:

It's reminiscent of 'Widow's Wail', which is a sharp instrument, or 'keen' (a synonym for sharp) in other words!  So, the wind is configured as a weapon, in line with our previous observations regarding the Stark 'quartet of w-' ('wind, wolf, wood, and winter').

Nice, I like the ideas regarding Lady Forlorn and Widow’s Wail.  In fact I looked at the word ‘wail’ for further clues as well.  The Wailing Tower at Harrenhal was something I researched for my hills essay.  Obviously the wind blowing through the fissures in the tower walls make that wailing sound, just the sort of thing we look out for here in the Bran re-read.  But there are also said to be cavernous vaults situated beneath the Wailing Tower, just the sort of underground clues I was looking for. 

On ‎09‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 8:17 PM, ravenous reader said:

The strange sound echoes -- almost 'ghostly' wouldn't you say -- put me in mind of a similar phenomenon which Arya experiences in that other hollow hill/hall of the House of Black and White, in which 'stone gods' together with the water effects of the mysterious black pool are also implicated in the production of sound effects:

Nice catch with the ‘ragged’ and ‘shaggy’ connection.  I agree there is a ghostly feel about Winterfell, the wind there is also described as having ‘ghostly fingers’, plus there are all those Stark ghosts roaming about of course.  ^_^

The hollow hills being attached to the Faeries/Sidhe is interesting in that respect as it’s said in Celtic legend that when they [the Fae, or the greenseers in this case] appear it can be in a gust of wind, and there is often a strange sound.  That sound is normally like the humming of thousands of bees, but George could play with these inspirations if indeed this the case.  The main point here is when the faeries appear it can be in the wind while also playing with sounds.  Furthermore they can silence a mortal [normally one playing faery music] which reminded me of the three times a silence fell on the characters in the Prologue etc… Cool link with the black pond and the strange sounds at the House of Black and White too.  :)

On ‎09‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 8:17 PM, ravenous reader said:

(trees are often said to be the 'lungs of the earth' in the 'real world' recycling the carbon dioxide and producing oxygen).

And what do we do with our lungs?  We breathe, sigh, cough, laugh, cry, speak -- we sing (the 'song of the earth' of course, but I won't elaborate further on that, since it's been covered so many times, and that tale wouldn't bear repeating, anyway...;)).

Hmm, great point about the trees being the lungs of the Earth, the breathing, sighing, whistling, whispering, wailing, howling, singing and indeed speaking could therefore also be attributed to the trees as well as the wind.  Thinking out loud, could that explain the windless night?

On ‎09‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 8:17 PM, ravenous reader said:

However, I still have not yet encountered a satisfactory explanation for why the night was 'windless,' which seems counterintuitive, given all this 'singing'... Perhaps that's something we can tackle in our next 'Bran's growing powers' series, together with the general breathlessness, loss of voice and words catching in throats of the ever-elusive and -crucial Prologue!

Perhaps the stronger greenseers controlling the weirwoods might not need the wind to rustle their leaves, they can do it themselves, as they breathe/speak the leaves rustle and speech.  I always thought it was George’s way of telling us that Bran has ultimate control over the tree, no wind necessary.  The previous association with the wind enabling the voice via the rustling is cast aside and Bran takes charge of the tree, he speaks and the leaves rustle. [Bran seems like a particularly powerful greenseer, I think he is the embodiment of the tree at that moment]  A sort of puppeteer as you have previously mentioned, going so far as to reach down and brush Theon’s brow with one of his many blood red hands.  Perhaps this is the sort of power [and then some] that some of those First Men/naughty greenseers had?  The ability to control creatures yes, but seemingly inanimate objects too such as rocks, trees, fire, water, or perhaps even comets and moons with amazing precision?  

The AGOT Prologue has wielded many a clue, but yes the words catching in the throat has baffled us.  I mentioned the Sidhe/Fae’s tendencies to steal voices up thread, but more research needed.  I agree that is something we could look at again in V.2.  I love the 1-2-3 greenseeing nod as well, 'oh oh oh' how he loves his threes, great stuff.  :)

On ‎09‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 8:17 PM, ravenous reader said:

I'll remind you of that important passage to which @Tijgy drew our attention, in which the greenseer landscape is presented as one gigantic living body:

Love that quote!!  :D

On ‎09‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 8:17 PM, ravenous reader said:

Do you think there could be some terrible secret or terrible presence being figuratively and/or literally restrained respectively, associated perhaps with the lowest level of the crypts for example (Black Crow for one has suggested that Winterfell is a prison of sorts containing some dread force which should not be released)?

I think it’s a good idea, really I have no clue what is down there [apart from having that hunch about a greenseer cave, throne and all].  Plus the Stark Kings and Lords have those swords to keep their souls from wandering, so why not be able to restrain a terrible presence in some way as well.  :dunno:

The lower level being partly collapsed is interesting, is it partly collapsed yet still accessible [if not a little dangerous] or is it partly collapsed concealing the entrance to that level completely?  If the latter applies then could that be an attempt to keep any spirits at bay?  Basically blocking it on purpose.  It would be similar to the ‘blocking stones’ we see in our real world barrows, equally in an attempt to keep the spirits in.  Really interesting topic though.

Thanks @ravenous reader for another awesome post and a reminder that we have much to sink our teeth into in the upcoming V.2 thread.  Truly great work, again.  :cheers:

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On February 9, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Blue Tiger said:

but I highly doubt that GRRM intended House's name to reference that word.

I have to agree with @ravenous reader here. 

 

On February 9, 2017 at 6:11 PM, ravenous reader said:

ou guys do realise that literature criticism moved on in the 1980s from 'what the author intended'....Derrida, Roland Barthes, the Hermeneutic Circle, etc.?

This here is exactly right. Authors die, literature is alive and well. One example I like to use is to think of the last words of Socrates. He says "Crito, we owe a cock to Asclepius" 

This seems odd. One might think he simply made a mistake and meant hermes as he was sentenced to death, at least in part, for one of his students knocking the units off of some Hermes statues around athens. Maybe he wanted some kind of cock replacement program to honor his death. Nietzsche, in the Gaya Scientia (1887) points out that sacrificing a cock to asclepius, however, is what one does when they get better from an illness. So, in essence, according to Nietzsche what Socrates is saying is that life, mortal life, is an illness and death is actually the cure, becoming pure spirit again. That sounds pretty good right? But think of where we are. 130 years, 2 world wars, mainstream existentialism and nihilism, a world almost totally bereft of god and sure, Nietzsche's answer makes sense. However, when Nietzsche said it this was after 2 millennia of other people reading this and Nietzsche's ideas were considered interesting, if not groundbreaking when he said them.

So for 2000 years people what? just skipped over socrates' last words as if they didn't matter? Of course not. They had other ideas for what they meant --ideas that reflected the values, morals, thinking, weltgeist and general field of vision from their own time. What did Plato actually mean when he wrote them or Socrates actually mean when he said them (if he even did)....who the hell knows. But more than who the hell knows -- IT DOESN'T MATTER. It simply does not matter. The dialogue are a living set of documents interpreted over and over with each successive generation of academics from the standpoint of people who have all the former theories at their disposal.

Think about the bible even. Billions of pages on paper about what the bible means, or shakespeare or James Joyce or Dostoyevsky what did the authors mean? It is impossible to guess which means it is simply not interesting. So take one of my favorite characters, The Hound. I see the hound as a romantic. He was a child who played with toy knights. He wants a song from Sansa...not a kiss, a song. The Hound is a beautiful and tragic figure who was a dreamer who had visions of chivalry but faced harsh abuse and had his dreams turned to ash but now and then they pop out....there is still the spark of the boy who played with his brothers toy knight in his heart. Did George intend the Hound to be this character? Not yes. Not no. The answer is, it does not matter and it is not interesting. This is why I generally avoid the SSM. I don't really care what spake martin most of the time. There is the text of the book and that is what matters.

All documents, as Derrida points out, are alive. Want proof, read the Constitution. Article I Section 2 Paragraph 3

"Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons."

Three fifths of all other persons. That would be african americans. We are in a more evolved time now when we can all look at this and say it is absurd, but there it is in the constitution and we are still counting black people as a full person today instead of 3/5 because the document has evolved its meaning over time to suit a new age.

Hopefully Martin will finish the entire song of ice and fire and then those books will be read and discussed and analyzed for years, centuries maybe. And how we see these stories will be, as they always are, a reflection of the reader, not of the author.

 

On February 9, 2017 at 6:11 PM, ravenous reader said:
Quote

Another instance of Heidegger's use of the hermeneutic circle occurs in his examination of The Origin of the Work of Art (1935–1936). Here Heidegger argues that both artists and art works can only be understood with reference to each other, and that neither can be understood apart from 'art,' which, as well, cannot be understood apart from the former two. The 'origin' of the work of art is mysterious and elusive, seemingly defying logic: "thus we are compelled to follow the circle. This is neither a makeshift or a defect. To enter upon the path is the strength of thought, to continue on it is the feast of thought, assuming thinking is a craft. Not only is the main step from work to art a circle like the step from art to work, but every separate step that we attempt circles this circle. In order to discover the nature of the art that really prevails in the work, let us go to the actual work and ask the work what and how it is."

@YOVMO -- help me out here, please!

Oh using Heidegger here is so deadly dangerous. In the origin of the work of art heidegger is trying to agree with the methodology of Nietzsche laid out, fragmentary as it is, in the Will to Power while avoiding the conclusion that Art is more important than Truth. Because of this, Heidegger makes so many shoehorn sidesteps with logic that he might as well be arguing that dasein is a secret targaryen. In this very book, Heidegger says about Van Gogh's painting Shoes

From the dark opening of the worn insides of the shoes the toilsome tread of the worker stares forth. In the stiffly rugged heaviness of the shoes there is the accumulated tenacity of her slow trudge through the far-spreading and ever-uniform furrows of the field swept by a raw wind. On the leather lie the dampness and richness of the soil. Under the soles slides the loneliness of the field-path as evening falls. In the shoes vibrates the silent call of the earth, its quiet gift of the ripening grain and its unexplained self-refusal in the fallow desolation of the wintry field. This equipment is pervaded by uncomplaining anxiety as to the certainty of bread, the wordless joy of having once more withstood want, the trembling before the impending childbed and shivering at the surrounding menace of death. This equipment belongs to the earth, and it is protected in the world of the peasant woman. From out of this protected belonging the equipment itself rises to its resting-within-itself.

 

In reality the shoes Van the man is painting are his own. Does that make Heidegger's interpretation "wrong" in some way? Of course not. That would be absurd. The art is simply there to occasion a moment of clarity into the self, not into the artist. How you read ASOIAF has more to do with you than it does with Martin. Remember, the hermeneutic circle does not exist to unlock some kind of secret hidden in the book by the author, but unlock some secret about the world and about your soul which is hidden not in the text but in the act of conducting an exegesis on it.

Edited by YOVMO

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On ‎10‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 3:32 AM, LmL said:

My rule of thumb is to simply look for multiple correlations - specific callouts to a myth or fable. I have found enough influences which are clearly, clearly spelled out to feel safe concluding that "when GRRM uses an influence, he makes multiple clear allusions to the thing referenced

I agree.  Though slightly different in terms of research, the hollow hills and their Celtic influence is I think a good example of this, particularly with the old Gaelic word Sidhe. [Pronounced Shee or Shay]  Old Irish has various meanings for the word Sidhe, all of which fit rather nicely into the Celtic angle of my hills essay.  I of course started with the clue that Sidhe also meant hollow hills but the Celtic link grew with some research.  Here’s a quick explanation…      

Sidhe as hollow hills

Searching the mythology of hollow hills I found they are directly linked to Celtic myth in that they are another name for Sidhe [or Sidhe mounds].  We have only visited two hollow hills in the series, both associated with CotF and human greenseers, so I was pleased to note the other uses of the word Sidhe in connection to this...  

The Sidhe as CotF

The Sidhe are often thought of as the ‘Faery folk of the mounds’, small people often dressed in green living in their hills etc.  There is obviously a connection to be made with the CotF here.  However, the small faery image a lot of people have isn’t always the case in Irish lore.   

The Sidhe as human greenseers

The Sidhe of Irish myth [or the Tuatha De Dannan] were different in that they had gods living amongst them, human gods.  These human gods had supernatural powers, lived extremely long lives but could still be killed as mortals, and they too also lived in the hollow hills.  There are tales of these Sidhe being shapeshifters and seers as well.  Again it seems reasonable to make a connection with the human greenseers in asoiaf.    

So the word Sidhe seems to be associated with the hollow hills, CotF and human greenseers, but it doesn’t stop there.  This thread in particular has looked at the various powers of the greenseers, one such ability being controlling the wind.  @evita mgfs noted very early on that the word ‘gust’ seemed like a clue for us readers to look out for a presence in the wind. 

Sidhe meaning wind or gust  

The word Sídhe can also be translated in Old Irish as ‘wind or gust’ and certainly the Sidhe have much to do with the wind.  They journey in whirling winds and when old country people see the leaves whirling on the road they bless themselves, because they believe the Sidhe to be passing by. 

Celtic lore which seems to parallel the greenseers/CotF in their hollow hills inhabiting the whirling winds and rustling leaves etc, all from the ‘hollow hill/Sidhe link.  Instantly Celtic mythology became more interesting than it was already for me.  :)

Ser Gendry of the Hollow Hill and the Gentry of Ireland

Not bound to their hollow hills, the Sidhe were often called ‘the Gentry’ by the country folk on account of their tall, noble appearance and silvery sweet speech.  The Gentry is one letter away from Gendry, who is of course tall and of noble appearance himself.  Ser Gentry of the Hollow Hill.

I’m a little unclear where this one fits in, but is a good example of how digging and following a potential pattern can have its rewards.  I have my eye on Gendry and his link to the hollow hills moving forward.     

I'll stop here as there is plenty more to research, but if nothing else this continues to prove that George is weaving all these myths/inspirations into one big melting pot for us to research and enjoy.  While one poster can say ‘this is Norse inspired’ another can claim some Celtic influence on the same subject, and so on.  Most likely they would both be right, the joy for me is the journey and seeing how all these inspirations are masterfully pieced together. 

On ‎09‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 11:32 PM, ravenous reader said:

Hi Gloubie!  I'm sure @Tijgy , @Wizz-The-Smith (and @evita mgfs who is with us in spirit -- Hi Evita! :wub:) join me in welcoming you -- whom I recognized as one of the most original thinkers from your very first post on this forum.  Please also contribute on our upcoming 'Bran's growing powers' continuation thread in future!  It's always been a very friendly and free-flowing group, and we enjoy creative analysis such as yours.  :)

 Hi @GloubieBoulga  :)  

I too have enjoyed your posts on the forum, I join our resident raven in welcoming you to Bran's growing powers.  As RR mentions, we're a friendly group and love to read anything Bran [especially thoughtful analysis ;)]  We don't have a structure like a normal re-read thread, so feel free to post anything Bran/old gods related.  Thanks GloubieBoulga.  :cheers:

On ‎10‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 3:32 AM, LmL said:

And I think it's clear the poetry angle has been really enjoyable for a lot of people; that's been a very popular and enthusiastic thread. We have made some discoveries that way also, even if I complain about being a little loose with the analysis (THAT'S A F*CKING JOKE RR CHILL OUT lol)

Haha  :lol:   

You're a brave man LmL, those talons are sharp and the teeth sharper.  :P 

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On 10/02/2017 at 0:32 AM, ravenous reader said:

Hi Gloubie!  I'm sure @Tijgy , @Wizz-The-Smith (and @evita mgfs who is with us in spirit -- Hi Evita! :wub:) join me in welcoming you -- whom I recognized as one of the most original thinkers from your very first post on this forum.  Please also contribute on our upcoming 'Bran's growing powers' continuation thread in future!  It's always been a very friendly and free-flowing group, and we enjoy creative analysis such as yours.  :)

 

Thanks @ravenous reader and @Wizz-The-Smith

The invitation here arrives very well, because I come here with little new, speaking again about the heart in the chest (special Ravenous !), wind and hand. 

So, that's in the ASOS prologue, when Chett and others hunters come back to the Fist, after they failed their bear-hunt (the cold is intense, the dogs are totally afraid - and I think they have followed the trail of a dead bear, but that not concern directly Bran), Chett stop to look Sam who is training with a bow. Here, this is the training which is interesting me. As usual, I would write better and almost more than I do, but let's see the 3 Sam's shots :

 

 
Quote

 

Three arrows stood in the ground before him. Tarly nocked and drew, held the draw a long moment as he tried to aim, and let fly. The shaft vanished into the greenery. Chett laughed loudly, a snort of sweet disgust.
"We'll never find that one, and I'll be blamed," announced Edd Tollett, the dour grey-haired squire everyone called Dolorous Edd. "Nothing ever goes missing that they don't look at me, ever since that time I lost my horse. As if that could be helped. He was white and it was snowing, what did they expect?"
"The wind took that one," said Grenn, another friend of Lord Snow's. "Try to hold the bow steady, Sam."

 

(I definitly think Edd is one of my favorites ^^). 
The first arrow missed the target, but as Grenn says, the reality could be different : the greenseers have power to use the wind for... a lot of things, it seems, like talking ("words are wind") or sailing (Euron) or make men and thing vanished (the mists in the green woods, or Euron again, the "invisible-man"), aso... So, the arrow vanished as the white horse vanished in the snow ^^ (I wonder here if the white horse's story weren't an allusion to the fact that Ned came back from the Tower of Joy only with Lyanna's bones and lord Dustin's red horse - but not the bones. And Barbrey Dustin wants revenge for that. Bones are white and Ned came back with a baby snow) 
Second arrow : 
 
Quote

 

This one went high, sailing through the branches ten feet above the target.
"I believe you knocked a leaf off that tree," said Dolorous Edd. "Fall is falling fast enough, there's no need to help it." He sighed. "And we all know what follows fall. Gods, but I am cold. Shoot the last arrow, Samwell, I believe my tongue is freezing to the roof of my mouth."


 

This time, a leaf, Thanks to Dolorous Ned !
The leaves of weirwoods are compared to hands, and if in the scene there are no weirwood, the trunks of the trees are carved to represent men. I think it could be better to say "shadows of men" because they are only outlines. If we say shadows, we will think Others : the context of this prologue matches with it, because the "horde" is arriving with the cold.  
If I resume, in the reality, Sam missed the target two times, but I think symbolically he succeded his shots. I'm not totally sure, but one of them (the first shot ?) could foreshadow his Other's killing (Sam I, ASOS). The second shot, I don't know, but I thnk it could be very instructive to observe Sam's acts in TWOW. 
I think the third arrow is for the end. Let's see it : 
Quote

 

"Notch, draw, and loose," said Grenn. "Go on."
Dutifully, the fat boy plucked his final arrow from the earth, notched it to his longbow, drew, and released. He did it quickly, without squinting along the shaft painstakingly as he had the first two times. The arrow struck the charcoal outline low in the chest and hung quivering. "I hit him." Ser Piggy sounded shocked. "Grenn, did you see? Edd, look, I hit him!"
"Put it between his ribs, I'd say," said Grenn.
"Did I kill him?" the fat boy wanted to know.
Tollett shrugged. "Might have punctured a lung, if he had a lung. Most trees don't, as a rule." He took the bow from Sam's hand. "I've seen worse shots, though. Aye, and made a few."
Ser Piggy was beaming. To look at him you'd think he'd actually done something. But when he saw Chett and the dogs, his smile curled up and died squeaking.
"You hit a tree." Chett said.

 

 

 

"most trees don't have a lung" = some have, "as a rule". Edd always says true words ! In fact, weirwood, but also sentinels and tree soldiers are "alive". The woods in general in the saga are described as living people/animals, not only as a sea : they move (Asha's chapter at Deepwood Motte, for example), they whisper, they breath, they see (or give the illusion that they do all these things)

I think too Chett gives us (without knowing ^^) the good short answer : a greenseer is wed to the trees, and with the time, he/she becomes a tree. I have thought one moment that the lung could be in fact the heart, or near the heart, because the outlines aren't precise. If we look to Sam attentively, we can see that he "becomes" a hunter (as the banner of his house, in fact) : he is training with bow (the weapon for the hunt) and Jon Snow offers him an old horn, and a dagger (and the daggers are ordinary used by hunter to achieve the animals, to carve the meat, or in case they must fight with the animal).

This scene recalls me another, in AGOT, when Bran, Robb and Theon are going out of Winterfell for a hunt, and Bran is captured by wildling, particulary by a crow. Theon saves Bran with an arrow - killing directly the crow - but he could have killed Bran too. If we look, after his falling, Bran escaped to death two times : first when he was in coma (the dagger), and the second time it was Theon's arrow. We could add the godswood of Winterfell who escaped to the fire at the end of ACOK. 

To go further, Jon is using a bow not only for battle/hunt, but also to give a "mercyfull" death to the false Mance who is burning in a cage. And we find again the cage/the nest metaphor ! 

When I arrived on this forum, I just conceived the idea that Bran would die by the hand of Jon Snow and Daenerys together (Dany burning Winterfell with Drogon, and particulary the heart tree; and Jon according a quick and sweet death to his "brother" with a dagger in the heart), but I had totally forgotten Sam, who is - in a kind of way - a reference to the Tolkien's Sam, the friend of Frodo. 

Frankly, I have no idea if Sam will really put an arrow in a greenseer's heart, I suspect the heart is specifically "reserved" to Jon (and perhaps to the 3 heads of the dragon), but it seems that Sam has a determinant part to play : with the lungs and the breath

 

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Mondays are better with updates from this thread

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2 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

 

 

Thanks @ravenous reader and @Wizz-The-Smith

The invitation here arrives very well, because I come here with little new, speaking again about the heart in the chest (special Ravenous !), wind and hand. 

So, that's in the ASOS prologue, when Chett and others hunters come back to the Fist, after they failed their bear-hunt (the cold is intense, the dogs are totally afraid - and I think they have followed the trail of a dead bear, but that not concern directly Bran), Chett stop to look Sam who is training with a bow. Here, this is the training which is interesting me. As usual, I would write better and almost more than I do, but let's see the 3 Sam's shots :

 

 
(I definitly think Edd is one of my favorites ^^). 
The first arrow missed the target, but as Grenn says, the reality could be different : the greenseers have power to use the wind for... a lot of things, it seems, like talking ("words are wind") or sailing (Euron) or make men and thing vanished (the mists in the green woods, or Euron again, the "invisible-man"), aso... So, the arrow vanished as the white horse vanished in the snow ^^ (I wonder here if the white horse's story weren't an allusion to the fact that Ned came back from the Tower of Joy only with Lyanna's bones and lord Dustin's red horse - but not the bones. And Barbrey Dustin wants revenge for that. Bones are white and Ned came back with a baby snow) 
Second arrow : 
 
This time, a leaf, Thanks to Dolorous Ned !
The leaves of weirwoods are compared to hands, and if in the scene there are no weirwood, the trunks of the trees are carved to represent men. I think it could be better to say "shadows of men" because they are only outlines. If we say shadows, we will think Others : the context of this prologue matches with it, because the "horde" is arriving with the cold.  
If I resume, in the reality, Sam missed the target two times, but I think symbolically he succeded his shots. I'm not totally sure, but one of them (the first shot ?) could foreshadow his Other's killing (Sam I, ASOS). The second shot, I don't know, but I thnk it could be very instructive to observe Sam's acts in TWOW. 
I think the third arrow is for the end. Let's see it : 
 

 

"most trees don't have a lung" = some have, "as a rule". Edd always says true words ! In fact, weirwood, but also sentinels and tree soldiers are "alive". The woods in general in the saga are described as living people/animals, not only as a sea : they move (Asha's chapter at Deepwood Motte, for example), they whisper, they breath, they see (or give the illusion that they do all these things)

I think too Chett gives us (without knowing ^^) the good short answer : a greenseer is wed to the trees, and with the time, he/she becomes a tree. I have thought one moment that the lung could be in fact the heart, or near the heart, because the outlines aren't precise. If we look to Sam attentively, we can see that he "becomes" a hunter (as the banner of his house, in fact) : he is training with bow (the weapon for the hunt) and Jon Snow offers him an old horn, and a dagger (and the daggers are ordinary used by hunter to achieve the animals, to carve the meat, or in case they must fight with the animal).

This scene recalls me another, in AGOT, when Bran, Robb and Theon are going out of Winterfell for a hunt, and Bran is captured by wildling, particulary by a crow. Theon saves Bran with an arrow - killing directly the crow - but he could have killed Bran too. If we look, after his falling, Bran escaped to death two times : first when he was in coma (the dagger), and the second time it was Theon's arrow. We could add the godswood of Winterfell who escaped to the fire at the end of ACOK. 

To go further, Jon is using a bow not only for battle/hunt, but also to give a "mercyfull" death to the false Mance who is burning in a cage. And we find again the cage/the nest metaphor ! 

When I arrived on this forum, I just conceived the idea that Bran would die by the hand of Jon Snow and Daenerys together (Dany burning Winterfell with Drogon, and particulary the heart tree; and Jon according a quick and sweet death to his "brother" with a dagger in the heart), but I had totally forgotten Sam, who is - in a kind of way - a reference to the Tolkien's Sam, the friend of Frodo. 

Frankly, I have no idea if Sam will really put an arrow in a greenseer's heart, I suspect the heart is specifically "reserved" to Jon (and perhaps to the 3 heads of the dragon), but it seems that Sam has a determinant part to play : with the lungs and the breath

 

 

Oddly enough, I broke down this exact scene with Sam and the tree in my new episode that I just put out last night, A Burning Brandon. Sam has a Red moon face as he is firing through arrows, so that's a moon shooting meteor arrows... at a tree, just as the storm gods thunderbolt set fire to a tree ( which I interpret as an account of a moon meteor impact). The tree Sam is shooting at has a charcoal outline of a person hanging from it, giving us the idea of a burning man, a man hung on a tree, and a tree man on fire all at once. Trees that have lungs are indeed weirwoods hooked up to greenseers, and that's what's Happening Here - the moon and meteor is setting fire to the tree, creating a burning man greenseer. Sam has that extensive herne the hunter, dead horned Lord symbolism, and you'll notice that he's making fall fall faster, and we know what comes after fall. In other words, he's a horned Lord trying to turn the seasons by summoning moon meteors. 

Chett then tells piggy that the wildlings won't stand there like trees with their leaves rustling, the come straight at him and plant an axe in his forehead right between the eyes. You recalled that when the three-eyed crow pecks Bran's third eye open in his dream, it was like an axe blow right between the eyes. This is the starseed of lightbringer being planted into the Moon, from whence grows a fiery undead greenseer, a burning tree person.

I also went through several scenes which connect lightning strikes to towers and brand using his third eye, such as the events at Queen's Crown, Brands climbing towards the broken Tower, the broken children's Tower at moat Cailin, and then of course back to the night for it with the weirwood and the well. I gave out several hat tips to folks on this thread, as a matter of fact, so thanks very much for that Bran focus here and theeven fine research done by y'all.

https://lucifermeanslightbringer.com/2017/02/20/weirwood-compendium-2-a-burning-brandon/

 

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3 hours ago, LmL said:

Oddly enough, I broke down this exact scene with Sam and the tree in my new episode that I just put out last night, A Burning Brandon. Sam has a Red moon face as he is firing through arrows, so that's a moon shooting meteor arrows... at a tree, just as the storm gods thunderbolt set fire to a tree ( which I interpret as an account of a moon meteor impact). The tree Sam is shooting at has a charcoal outline of a person hanging from it, giving us the idea of a burning man, a man hung on a tree, and a tree man on fire all at once. Trees that have lungs are indeed weirwoods hooked up to greenseers, and that's what's Happening Here - the moon and meteor is setting fire to the tree, creating a burning man greenseer. Sam has that extensive herne the hunter, dead horned Lord symbolism, and you'll notice that he's making fall fall faster, and we know what comes after fall. In other words, he's a horned Lord trying to turn the seasons by summoning moon meteors. 

Chett then tells piggy that the wildlings won't stand there like trees with their leaves rustling, the come straight at him and plant an axe in his forehead right between the eyes. You recalled that when the three-eyed crow pecks Bran's third eye open in his dream, it was like an axe blow right between the eyes. This is the starseed of lightbringer being planted into the Moon, from whence grows a fiery undead greenseer, a burning tree person.

I also went through several scenes which connect lightning strikes to towers and brand using his third eye, such as the events at Queen's Crown, Brands climbing towards the broken Tower, the broken children's Tower at moat Cailin, and then of course back to the night for it with the weirwood and the well. I gave out several hat tips to folks on this thread, as a matter of fact, so thanks very much for that Bran focus here and theeven fine research done by y'all.

https://lucifermeanslightbringer.com/2017/02/20/weirwood-compendium-2-a-burning-brandon/

Very funny ! I'm re-reading in english the whole serie, and I was this week-end in this chapter which retained my attention like it hadn't made before (not especially for the scene with Sam, but this time I saw things I didn't saw before), and when I saw "Sam with his face of red moon", I thought to you and your theorie of meteor impact ! ^^

The red face is also the red burning face of the 3 KIngs Guard at the Tower of Joy. I'm tempted to see in Sam's red face a manner to mark the dawn. But a red moon also anounces the frozen (in fact, I don't know how you call this in english, but in french a "lune rousse" significates 2 differents things, and one off them corresponds to the spring period, when days are "warm" but the night can be very cold. In this period, the moon isn't necessarily red, by the way it's called "lune rousse", referencing to the young vegetals who can freeze and become red. The other thing is the color of the moon during a moon eclipse or when she is low in the horizon. As the expression is the same, people ordinary confonds the two things). Here, I saw it also as a manner to announce the battle at the Fist (and for Sam particulary his surviving and killing an Other) 

As I already said, I'm not convinced by a real meteor or moon impact (but all the symbollic is thoughtfully), but curiously, even if we have differents ways/points of view, we arrive quite often to similars conclusions ^^. I particulary appreciate the horned Lord who can turn the seasons. I'll read your article. 

 

As we are at the Fist, I continue a bit with it : a ruined and very old fortress, beyond the Wall. 

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He had once heard his uncle Benjen say that the Wall was a sword east of Castle Black, but a snake to the west. (Jon IV, ASOS)

So I was wondering if the Wall wasn't also the sword who cut the "hand" who had once (a long time ago) killed a king, and abandonned it in a waste land. The weirwoods have "bloody hands", but the fist (the hand closed to strike) is hidden beyond the wall. That could also significate that being in the south of the Wall, the Stark (and the realm) have symbolically lost their hand and their sword, like Jaime, but not only Jaime : Westeros can't find a Hand nor a king and the serie is full of story of lost swords, full full of people who dream they have one or to have one.  

Hmm, and Bran, in this ? During a long time, I have thought that Bran was taking revenge against Jaime, for his fall and the fact he won't never be a knight : the lost hand was only the beginning and he was the things waiting in the darkness in Jaime's dream. I didn't change my mind about it, but I think I saw to short with a "single" revenge, and I wonder if by striking Stark(s) (= profanation) Jaime did not receive in return a "Stark curse" : I mean like Theon, he became a "3-Eyed-Crow's puppet" (according to the fact that the 3 Eyed-Crow isn't only BR, but the greenseers who came after the first "3 Eyed Crow" - who I believe was a Stark), and for that reason, he is condemned to replay the part of an ancient and hidden Stark story. Huh, I hope I'm clear enough.

I feel like I witter with my ancient Stark story:D

But let's stay with Bran : this would also significate that dreaming and being a greenseer, Bran the broken isn't only a spectator/onlooker of old memories, but he also replays in the present time the part of the ancient 3 Eyed Crow, without knowing it (I say 3EC by logic, but I suspect this isn't the unic part here), and the ancient end must be replayed differently to break the curse. 

Folks, it's time to put my little children to bed and I must interrupt here ! 

 

 

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Quick point of fact, the theory that the three-eyed Crow is something or someone other than Bloodraven is only a theory, not a fact. In my opinion, it's a theory which is not very well supported by evidence, and is rather speculative, although nothing disproves it or rules it out. I would definitely caution against locking on to that idea, for what it's worth. 

As for the Fist, I tend to connect it with a few other structures which also thrust upward like a fist - Storm's end, the little fortified seamount near White Harbor, and one or two other structures which I do not recall at the moment. In terms of mythical astronomy, all of these rising fists represent the cloud of smoke and ash which would have risen from the meteor impacts. There's a great quote about storms end being a deeper blackness which hit the stars, and that is what I'm talking about. There's also a great moment in the fight between the mountain and the Viper where fall and Gregor, a moon meteor character, has his fist rise up to meet the solar face of Oberyn, and his blood-soaked fist is smoking at that moment. Also playing into the symbolism or ashwood spears thrust into the ground hyphen that creates a column of ash, with the spears representing meteor impacts. Yggdrasil is an ash tree, and it seems the meteors and the weirwoods are closely linked. The weirwoods themselves are like a rising column of ash, and the meteor itself is represented by the dragon beneath the tree, and also the weirwood leaves which are like bloody hands and bits of flame. 

The reason why we keep coming to the same conclusions through different means is because the mythical astronomy is all true. :) in fact one of the best correlations to my body of theories is how well it integrates with other good theories, even decoding and adding to other theories. @ravenous reader'said brilliant green sea / greenseer discovery really takes flight when we realize the Sea Dragon is really a see dragon - a greenseer dragon person. And in order to understand the Sea Dragon myth, we have to understand the media component of it, and how the meteors relate to the weirwoods. These are the two forms of the fire of the Gods in the story, and the Grey King mythology explains how they relate to one another. You can figure some of this out without mythical astronomy, but you really can't get it fully without that layer.

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del

 

 

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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