The Valkyrie of the FM - theory about the First and the First Reborn

[sweetsunray]

 

Also... BR'S cave is perfectly placed he can see anywhere. Also the Ygdrasil concept is spread into a Weirwood network... If you look at it, his place is perfect. He is located in the realm that is most 'North'  aka highest >>Above humans. This is the realm of deities, ghosts and dead. It does fit with medieval concepts form as well Northern, Western and Central Europe and is often a mix of not only Norse, but also Celtic Mythological components. 

 

And the GoHH ... Seems like she's getting her dreams from... the Weirwoods

 

GoHH dreams - she has red eyes...Either she has the greensight (red eyes), like Jojen, or she actually may even be a greenseer. She's unusally old, also hair to the ground. People with the greensight already can tap into visions, without the weirnet. It's different from Jaime's dream when he sleeps on the weirwood stump. Jaime doesn't have the greensight. Hollow Hill is full of caves and weirwood roots. Where do these caves lead to? "There must be a weirwood grove above the roots". Maybe she has some place to "dream" like BR and the singers. Not all greenseers are necessarily tree-fied.

 

Also, don't overlook the Gods Eye. Odin had a seat from which he could see all the realms. There's North, which is a rather modern concept to associate with "high up", but there's also an island with numerous hearttrees where a pact was made between men and CotF, that manages to ward off wanderers from reaching it, in the middle of the lake that is called "Gods Eye".

 

But again while certainly the Northern one serves as the place that is the "well of knowledge", and the "Gods Eye" imo is the most likely place to be a reference to Odin's heavenly seat, Hollow Hill and the Riverlands fit mythological references for an underworld (not of burrows and fairies in hills) like a Hades or Hel where you can speak physically with the revived dead.

[Lady Barbrey]

Hi Evolet, liked your post! I can't comment on the Wild Hunt, will leave that to our experts, but did look up a possible antecedent for the Unsullied goddess when I came across that passage myself. She's likely the Great Mother herself, Cybele, one of the only gods to have a transgender, eunuch priesthood. They sacrificed their genitals to her. No wondered the Unsullied seem so satisfied with and faithful to their 'mother' Dany. The Mother made flesh!

[sweetsunray]

 

Great stuff, sweetsunray! I've been looking at Arya in terms of a weaver of destiny, as a Norn or one of the Fates (she has her 'Needle', (one of the tools for sewing / weaving). Your analysis extends this idea perfectly, love it. So far, I've regared the cup in general as a life giving / healing symbol (as in the Holy Grail) but of course it can also be regarded as a symbol of mercy as in giving the 'gift' of the FM. Now, I think the cup, in the context of mercy may provide the support you are looking for in respect of the First Faceless Man actually being a woman. The idea of mercy can be extended from drinking to caring for the poor and suffering in general. Support is very subtle but consider this:

 

Think of the freed Astapori slaves struck by the pale mare surrounding Meereen. It is Dany who takes the initiative to provide them with relief. While all others (the men) are horrified at the mere idea of even going near the sick, she is prepared to go alone. She asks for volunteers and only then do the men reluctantly agree. Conditions are horrific, and the freed slaves appeal to her, their Mother as they stream into the camp:

 

 

 

Dany is very concerned for the welfare of the people. In addition to nursing her folk, she considers sharing the food they have:

 

 

 

 

All this takes place in the open of course but we have references to heat (fever) and later, the notion of slaves trying to dig through the city walls to safety:

 

 

 

 

 

Grey Worm is the first to volunteer help. He chooses some Unsullied and they set to work. Later in the same chapter, we find out they worship a mysterious goddess, whose name must not be mentioned. She is variously otherwise known as the Lady of Spears, the Bride of Battle and the Mother of Hosts. The Unsullied, as former slaves answer to a secret goddess. Interesting. Grey Worm's name also evokes wyverns and similar creatures living in the earth beneath the 14 flames. 

 

So here we have Dany acting as a nurse, going to the place of horror and suffering, never minding that she might get infected, and bringing mercy to the people. 

 

 

Margery is another example. She makes an effort to visit the poor of KL, distributing food and comfort. Even though she knows about the riots during which the High Septon was killed and Lollys was raped, she also has no fear of danger to her person. At her wedding feast, she announces that left over food be given to the poor. Like Dany, she is well loved by the poor and disadvantaged. She hands out 'mercy' where possible. 

 

Queen Alysanne also comes to mind - she has a direct connection to the word 'gift'. Not only was she a good and kind queen, she also extends The Gift, increasing the area of sustainance for the Night's Watch. 

 

In all cases, we have women bringing this gift of mercy. 

 

I'm sure there are more examples but these come spontaneously to mind. Arya herself is associated with the 'positive' side of mercy through the Hound. She doesn't show mercy but it's a hint that 'the gift' can be seen from that point of view. And of course, the FM give this gift of mercy to those who no longer wish to endure suffering. 

 

 

 

The Wild Hunt

 

I've also been looking at the Wild Hunt and while I see it as a reference to the Others, I also see most of the list as wild hunts even though they do not appear to include ghosts. But actually, I think they do :)

 

 

 

We have to add one more - Ramsay and his practice of hunting young women.

 

 

There is a hidden theme of spirit possession in the books, another thing I'm looking into. Those bolded and Ramsay belong in this category, imo. I can't go into all that here, but consider references to Ramsay and Rorge as beasts in human skin. Biter and the Mountain also qualify for this description. They appear more beast than man, so much so, I see it as an insult to beasts :).
From what we know about warging and skinchanging, controlling the animal spirit is essential to keeping control of the animal nature itself. Failing to do this means absorbing more and more of the characteristics of the creature, essentially resulting in a form of spirit-possession / take over of the animal nature. This is a lesson Bran learns from Jojen. Haggon also implies this in his lessons, as Varamyr recalls. Haggon lists the side-effects of skinchanging particular animals:

 

 

 

 

 

So the man takes on the nature of the creature - skinchanging involves a mingling of spirits. What happens to people who have the gift of skinchanging but do not know it and are not taught to control it and use its power? Could they completely absorb the nature of the beast? I think so. It happens when a skinchanger dies and a dead skinchanger has no more control over the animal because he is.. well, dead.
Humans are in danger of living the beast nature even if they know they are skinchangers and consciously skinchange. How much more so if they do not know they possess an animal familiar and have never learned to control it? 

 

If I'm right, then all those hunts are enacted by 'possessed humans', which places them in the netherworld of spirits and ghosts. I'm not sure about Ser Armory but the rest fit. 

 

Beric himself, as leader of the BwB, can be regarded as a corporeal ghost. Like the wights, he's undead, not quite of the living and not quite of the dead, and Lady Stoneheart as well.

 

 

 

 

Yes, I love your "Needle"-weaver reference. Not all Norns are Valkyries, but some are, and of course Vakyries gained Norn powers over time. In most cultures Fates are linked with the concept of "threads" of life. Arya's no good in sowing people's lives with regards to how many children they'll have or who'll they'll wed. Her Needle is to stick people with the pointy end - to end lives.

 

The woman's cup

 

Good that you bring up the cupbearing element. Sometimes there are so many connections and things you want to say that you overlook them. The cup (and the grail) in mythology (certainly Celtic one) is related to femininity. It symbolizes the womb. pre-Christian Celtic culture was matrilineal. A woman's children didn't inherit her husband's status, but her uncle's or brother's. Meanwhile the woman's husband was the guardian of his sister's children. When a man was given his status as a chief, petty king or other type of rule, he needed the blessing of his sister or mother first. They did this by presenting the cup to the man. In some cases, they would even hold, lift and tip over the cup themselves, instead of the man's. People suppose matrilineal all the power was in a woman's hands. Of course it wasn't. Only when a woman had no uncle or brother was she the chief, until she had a son. If there was an uncle or brother, he'd be the chief. But the sister/mother had the power to deny them a blessing, which ultimately was not good.

 

Sometimes I notice how some readers think being a "cupbearer" is something that is a servant's job, a lowborn's, and not even female. But cupbearing was a position of power, higborn and female. A ruler not getting his sister's backing would have his rule heavily undermined. Hence, why Morgause's/Morgan le Fay's resistence against Arthur has such deep symbolical pre-Christian implications of Arthur's rule. The "grail" was lost, and the realm went to ruins with corruption. As her son's uncle, Arthur denied passing on his ruling status on Mordred. In a matrilineal culture, he would not have the right to do that, since the blessing would have been Morgause's to give. So, as the sister she denounces the brother's right to rule and instead gives it to her son. The Christians turned it around and blamed Morgause/Morgan le Fay over it, claiming she was evil, with every intent to squash the matrilineal power and replace it with Roman Catholic patrilineal heritance. And so we get this story of a king and a sister, and the sister has a son as heir per the matrilineal heritance, but it clashes with the new patrilineal one, where Arthur's nephew becomes his actual son. Either the Christians didn't fully comprehend how matrilineal heritance worked, and actually thought the nephews were an uncle's son, OR they made it an incestuous story to make it "evil". In the Christian context Gwynyfere ends up barren, supposedly as a punishment of Arthur unwittingly having slept with his half-sister, but in a matrilineal sense Gwyn's children were of no importance anyway. Her children belonged to her brother, not her husband's, which is the reason that if she had any children in the pre-Christian mythology (or her equivalent) they woudln't even be mentioned. 

 

Anyhow, all this to point out how 'cupbearing' is a position of female mythological power. It makes women the kingmakers, and ultimately over life and death. Who doesn't get his thirst lavished, dies of thirst. And it's also much clearler why in the Valkyrie related legends, they are so often accosted by the (tragic) heroes to lend their support and help them become the king. In Norse mythology it isn't the sisters the heroes turn to for right to rule, but the help of a Valkyrie. So, Arya's end-game role might involve her being a kingmaker (and Sansa), especially related to brothers or cousin.

 

Does GRRM use cups, wine in this Morgause-Arthurian way? Just look at Cersei. She has her husband the king killed during his hunt of getting him drunk with much too heavy wine. She machinates everything to become a ruler herself, through her son. And she drinks heavily. She basically becomes her own cupbearer. When her uncle Kevan becomes regent, she initally throws a cup of wine in his face. Right before his death, she does the opposite - she offers him a cup of wine. (btw - the boy messenger sent to fetch Kevan from the dinner with Cersei in the epilogue of aDwD is all huddled in furs looking like a ... 'bear cub') A big chip on her shoulder is how as a woman she's reduced to an ornament and chattel, but not power. And with Jaime as KG and her brother denounced by her misschief as a traitor, she at least acquires CR.

 

Let's forget for a moment that Starks are patrilineal, and instead for a moment put on the matrilineal thinking hat. Plotwise, Eddard Stark's mother is completely irrelevant. But his mother was a Stark, in fact in a matrlineal sense she was the eldest matriarch alive of the ruling Stark line. Of course the Starks have a patrlineal inheritance, but why did GRRM make sure that symbolically Rickard's wife was also his great-aunt, when she doesn't even appear or is mentioned in the books and has absolutely no bearing on the events in the story? If we just focus on Lyarra Stark's children and grandchildren, Lyanna became the symbolical "cupbearer" after her mother Lyarra (women inherit the status of their mothers directly in matrilineal cultures). When she dissapears, it wasn't Rickard who's so much angered by it, as it is Brandon - her brother. If she eloped voluntarily, in that sense Lyanna rejected Brandon's status as heir. He dies. But before Lyanna dies, she has a chance to converse with her last brother. Both Rickard and Brandon are dead. So, again, symbolically we have a situation of a sister and a brother, who ends up as the Lord of Winterfell, and taking Lyanna's bones home with him, as she's a Stark. And most significantly, he gives her a statue. It's almost as if he's saying, I am who I am because of my sister.  And who would be the Stark heir then? Eddard's nephew, Lyanna's son - Jon Snow. What about Robb, Sansa, Arya, Brandon and Rickon? They'd be Tully heirs through their mother and uncle Edmure Tully. Coincidence that almost all of her children have the Tully look and Jon has the Stark look? Coincidence that the girls' plot is tied to Tully territory - Riverlands and Vale through their mother and aunt? Who is the leader of the underground, rebellion movement with a crown in posession and about to give the jump shot for a turn-around and revenge in the Riverlands? It's LS, the undead mother of Arya and Sansa (the sole children she's still looking for) and sister of Edmure.

 

What about the Blackwoods. They had a ruling Lady Blackwood who fought the Ironborn kings once. He wanted to take her as a salt wife, but she preferred death over allowing him inside her (denying the cup). He killed her sons that were with her and then her. But she told him she still had other sons. Tytos Blackwood has many sons, one daughter. Jaime offers to have the daughter sent to KL to serve his sister, and as an effective hostage. But Tytos prefers to give Jaime one of his sons as a hostage for CR over his daughter. Of course there are the Mormont she-bears. And finally we have the Targs who marry their sisters. Aegon initially was to go to his aunt and get her cooperation. Tyrion manipulated him into going it on his own, without Danaerys' blessing or even knowledge. A giant mistake? 

 

For a patrlineal culture, GRRM weaves in a lot of choices and plotlines that fit the matrilineal heritance in a symbolical way. And if we think of Stark restoration we have to look for Sansa and Arya and LS to bring it about. Robb's dead, Bran's wed to a tree and cripple (with significant influence and importance), Rickon is like 5 or 6, and Jon's wed to the Wall. Rickon and/or Jon may end up ruling, but it will depend on their sisters/cousins, Arya and Sansa. 

 

So, a cup can be the gift of mercy, of heealing, of death, of life, as well as kingmaking. While we see it often in combination with death with Arya as a Valkyrie, her cupbearing can expand beyond it, especially since some Valkyries were actual kingmakers.

 

Personally, I take Arya's refusal to give the Hound the gift of mercy ambiguously. It was not just a decision to make him suffer before death. She had actually already taken Sandor of her list. She had lifted the mark of death from him, unnamed him. The Hound may have died, but Sandor lives. As ambiguously it was written, especially with what we learn through Brienne on the Quiet Isle later on, I think that Arya wanted both things: for him to suffer as well as live.

 

Wild Hunt

 

Thank you for putting into words what i wanted to show in that list, but failed to explain (it was late). Firstly, the Mountain, Ser Amory and Vargo Hoat were hired to "forage". They were hunters of people. They're all the most monstrous people, and they all are related to beasts. "The Mountain that rides" (sounds like a title of a Wild Hunt leader of the Witcher) is a "hunting dog". Vargo Hoat is the "Goat", not necessarily an animal you associate with hunting, but his banner is that f the "Black Goat with Bloody horns", and he's Qohoric, another "hunter" association. Ser Amory is the "Manticore", a legendary beast with a human head, lion's body and a scorpion's tail, that kills its prey with a sting and poison. And both Beric and LS are undead leaders, physical spectres, hunting for lions and Freys. Those were indeed the images I was trying to point out in the list, though I did not word the beastly/monstrous/spectre hunting nature behind it.

[Joan Jett]

I may be thinking too much here but with Arya as a cupbearer...drink from the cup of ice, drink from the cup of fire...
 
I've long thought that Arya and Dany will cross paths.  Any thoughts on Arya's role in that line?

That part of Dany's vision reminds me of the "cup of cold" that Arya must drink to truly become a FM. The quote itself reminds me more of Jon because of the combination of ice and fire. Also I definitely don't think that Arya would ever be sent to kill Dany as a mission, so I'm really not sure how they could meet.

[sweetsunray]

 

 

I'm not sure about this, but I think the cups of ice and fire are related to the idea of true justice / mercy versus vengeance. 

Dany frees slaves and offers them mercy, banishing Jorah was also an act of mercy, but at the same she takes revenge by crucifying the masters. None of them received a fair trial.

 

Arya seems to be all about vengeance. She has her prayer-list. She refuses to give the Hound a mercy death, thus prolonging his suffering. Her immediate thoughts after learning more about the insurance man is that he deserves to die. She struggles with the notion of doing what is 'pleasing' to the god of many faces. In TWoW sample chapter, her desire for revenge, for choosing her own victims, overcomes her training yet again. 

 

So it appears Arya is only drinking from one cup, as opposed to Dany who drinks from both. Since fire is associated with blood, perhaps the cup of fire is related to vengeance, while the cup of ice is associated with justice or true mercy. 

 

I've no real idea on how this may play out if the two ever meet though. Perhaps the key is that in her role as a Valkyre, she will make the right choice, regardless.

 

Actually that's not true. She's initially inventing all sorts of reasons why he "deserves" to die. But once the kindly man hints what the insurance man does (conning people), she thinks "One of them must hate him. One of them came to the House of Black and White and prayed for the god to take him." She does try to inquire who might have prayed for it, but the kindly man doesn't want to tell her and repeats he can lift the task of her if she wants it. She decides, "I will do it. I said I would. I will." After that the how is all she wonders about.

 

Her list is not solely vengeance, but justice as well. The names of the people on her list are those who committed crimes against humanity, several even complete strangers who never lifted a finger at her or hers (not family, not friends), in a time and for people that she knew they would be rewarded instead of punished for it. Yes, she hates them with a deep passion. But it would be more accurate to say she hates injustice. She doesn't start her list until after being captured by the Mountain, having witnessed people being tortured, women raped, on the march to Harrenhal. 

 

When Jaqen offers her 3 names, she is initially doubtful whether she should do it. She remembers her father's teachings - the man who decides the sentence must give it himself. So, initially she thinks she might do wrong against her father's perception of the application justice. She relates the names of her list with the deliverance of justice, not revenge.

 

And who does she name first? Chiswyck. He's a man who helped the Tickler with the torture, who jokes about it and thinks it's funny, and finally she overhears him telling a story about a gangrape, laughing about it. By all the laws she knows of, such a man would be given the choice between death or taking the black. So, her first name is a name of a man who did not harm her or her friends, but strangers, just people. That cannot be called "revenge", but the seeking of "justice".

 

The second name in contrast is the most personal name to her, "Weese". He beat her, he abused her, he lied to her. In her anger she gives his name to Jaqen, but shortly after she realizes she made a mistake; that Weese is not really important; that she should have given Tywin's or the Mountain's name. She hastens to find Jaqen and take the name Weese back and give the important names. But she comes too late, because Weese is already killed by the dog he handraised. Here already she has her first lesson of gonig the "revenge" route, and she wants the third name count.

 

Joffrey is the person she hates the most, for Mycah, for ordering her father beheaded. Jaqen asks her whether her third name is Joffrey, practically salivating over it himself at the idea. But no, she realizes that freeing the prisoners is more important than Joffrey (although in fact they would have been freed anyhow, and likewise Joffrey was dead as soon as Margaery was to be his queen and Sansa revealed to Olenna was he was (but Sansa had been given the hairnet already before telling Olenna this by Dontos). If Arya was all about revenge she would have jumped at the opportunity of naming Joffrey, and much sooner than that.

 

Next she kills the Tickler from her list herself, both to assist the Hound, to defend the both of them and to take him off her list. Her kill is a cathartic one indeed. But did the Tickler ever harm her, or her friends? No. She witnessed him harm strangers, enjoying it and get away with it - hell hired for it. So, again  his name belongs more in the justice department, than it does in the revenge department.

 

And then finally we have Dareon. Regardless on whether Arya is in fact a legally appointed deliverer of justice or not, and the fact that Westeros laws do not apply in Braavos, his murder is nowhere near close revenge. She knows he abandoned his brothers with lies and have them fend for themselves. She knows he's a deserter. Again her thought process involves her father's practice of justice, and it is this she applies.

 

As for Mercy

[spoiler] be careful with jumping too readily to the conclusion that Arya abandoned her job in order to kill Raff the Sweetling (who killed Lommy). We do not know what her task is, but it is likely that in fact she was to kill someone to create a political situation for the Iron Bank to openly refuse any further dealings with the Lannister-Tyrell alliance. When she initially wakes up, she thinks to herself - "Mercy, I'm Mercy, and tonight I'll be raped and murdered." Curiously, the dwarf who's to play the Imp and Bloody Hand later asks whether she's ready for her "rape", but not "rape and murder". The rape is all he talks about. But he never mentions a murder. Mercy is know to be happy and hard working, but not timely, "but that would not serve tonight." What's so special about tonight? The envoy of KL with the Sealord is to watch Izembaro's play "The Bloody Hand". Izembaro's theatre is not a grand one - it's meant for sailors and commoners not the rich, let alone a Sealord." In fact, it's the first time the Sealord actually deigns to see a play there. Why does the Sealord take the envoy of KL (who's visiting to negotiate another pay-back extension with the IB, while the IB already have agreed to a contract with Stannis) to a 2nd or 3rd rated theatre, with the Black Pearl (a very expensive courtesan)? Ok, the play is about the evilness of the Imp, and that would amuse Harold Swyft. But the plays was written and acted especially for the envoy's visit. On her way to the theatre she remembers her favorite scene of another play, where the "fat merchant shat on the sealord". Phario Forel wrote the Bloody Hand. He's related to Syrio, the first sword of the previous sealord that witnessed the contract or marriage between Arianne and Viserys, and who was "put off the job" by the current one. 

 

She takes with her, in a secret pocket, another set of coins, a key and apart from Mercy's fruit knife, a real blade. And it's not Needle. Nothing she carries is hers (Arya's); the fruit knife is Mercy's, the rest is not hers. Why would Mercy need to take a real blade along to a play? In plays they use fake swords, not real ones. So, she's supposed to use it - to stage her own rape and murder perhaps?

 

When she leaves for the theatre she thinks, "In the fog all cats are grey. In the fog all men are killers."

 

When she recognizes Raff the Sweetling, she thinks "The Gods have given me a gift."

 

So, the play does not include "her murder", and yet it's what she thinks it's part of her "role" that night. She takes a real sword/blade along and it's not hers, nor Mercy's, hence it's not Needle, and she doesn't need it on stage. All the hints implicate that Mercy has a job to do that night, a rape and a murder, and it's got to do with either getting the envoy in trouble or the current sealord - even before she knows Raff the Sweetling is one of the guards. The most reasonable conclusion with all the given hints In other words, mean she's to cause a scandal where it looks like 'Mercy' was raped and murdered. There must be witnesses who see her leave with someone of the envoy and that it's obvious why the someone takes her with him. She must leave a bloody mess, so there is evidence that there was a murder, even if there are no bodies (after feeding Raff to the eels). What Raff's colleague will tell is that Raff left with a child girl and then disappeared. But Mercy too will have disappeared. And there are enough witnesses in Izembaro's company who would be able to vouch for her sexual morality. The rape and murder of a young girl who doesn't even have titties yet, by a pedophile guard of the envoy, will make the headlines and cause a big scandal. The current Sealord may be in favor of keeping good relations with the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, but the Iron Bank who have a contract with Stannis?

 

The chapter ends with Arya thinking she had no doubt this would cause trouble for the envoy and the Sealord. But, she does not think "trouble for Mercy or herself".

 

So, Arya as Mercy did her job, and it was just luck she could use Raff the Sweetling to do the job[/spoiler]

[Lady Blizzardborn]

 

 

I'm not sure about this, but I think the cups of ice and fire are related to the idea of true justice / mercy versus vengeance. 

Dany frees slaves and offers them mercy, banishing Jorah was also an act of mercy, but at the same she takes revenge by crucifying the masters. None of them received a fair trial.

 

Arya seems to be all about vengeance. She has her prayer-list. She refuses to give the Hound a mercy death, thus prolonging his suffering. Her immediate thoughts after learning more about the insurance man is that he deserves to die. She struggles with the notion of doing what is 'pleasing' to the god of many faces. In TWoW sample chapter, her desire for revenge, for choosing her own victims, overcomes her training yet again. 

 

So it appears Arya is only drinking from one cup, as opposed to Dany who drinks from both. Since fire is associated with blood, perhaps the cup of fire is related to vengeance, while the cup of ice is associated with justice or true mercy. 

 

I've no real idea on how this may play out if the two ever meet though. Perhaps the key is that in her role as a Valkyre, she will make the right choice, regardless.

More like thus prolonging his life.  Sandor Clegane is alive, and wouldn't be if Arya had taken that opportunity to cross his name off her list.  Clearly vengeance is not the only thing motivating her, or she would have killed him just because she could.

 

The fact that Arya needs to think the target deserves to die indicates that she will never be a truly cold-blooded, objective assassin that the FM require their agents to be.  She believes in justice. Every person on her list is a terrible excuse for a human being, and has done things that merit death.  What Arya lacks is the wider experience to generalize her sense of justice. But for an 11 year old she's doing quite well.

 

Dany has 4 years of life on Arya, and those years are HUGE in terms of personal development.  

[Avlonnic]

Wow - this thread continues to attract exceptional contributors.

 

 

Great stuff, sweetsunray! I've been looking at Arya in terms of a weaver of destiny, as a Norn or one of the Fates (she has her 'Needle', (one of the tools for sewing / weaving). Your analysis extends this idea perfectly, love it. So far, I've regared the cup in general as a life giving / healing symbol (as in the Holy Grail) but of course it can also be regarded as a symbol of mercy as in giving the 'gift' of the FM. Now, I think the cup, in the context of mercy may provide the support you are looking for in respect of the First Faceless Man actually being a woman. The idea of mercy can be extended from drinking to caring for the poor and suffering in general. Support is very subtle but consider this:

 

Think of the freed Astapori slaves struck by the pale mare surrounding Meereen. It is Dany who takes the initiative to provide them with relief. While all others (the men) are horrified at the mere idea of even going near the sick, she is prepared to go alone. She asks for volunteers and only then do the men reluctantly agree. Conditions are horrific, and the freed slaves appeal to her, their Mother as they stream into the camp:

 

Dany is very concerned for the welfare of the people. In addition to nursing her folk, she considers sharing the food they have:

 

All this takes place in the open of course but we have references to heat (fever) and later, the notion of slaves trying to dig through the city walls to safety:

 

Grey Worm is the first to volunteer help. He chooses some Unsullied and they set to work. Later in the same chapter, we find out they worship a mysterious goddess, whose name must not be mentioned. She is variously otherwise known as the Lady of Spears, the Bride of Battle and the Mother of Hosts. The Unsullied, as former slaves answer to a secret goddess. Interesting. Grey Worm's name also evokes wyverns and similar creatures living in the earth beneath the 14 flames. 

 

So here we have Dany acting as a nurse, going to the place of horror and suffering, never minding that she might get infected, and bringing mercy to the people. 

 

Margery is another example. She makes an effort to visit the poor of KL, distributing food and comfort. Even though she knows about the riots during which the High Septon was killed and Lollys was raped, she also has no fear of danger to her person. At her wedding feast, she announces that left over food be given to the poor. Like Dany, she is well loved by the poor and disadvantaged. She hands out 'mercy' where possible. 

 

Queen Alysanne also comes to mind - she has a direct connection to the word 'gift'. Not only was she a good and kind queen, she also extends The Gift, increasing the area of sustainance for the Night's Watch. 

 

In all cases, we have women bringing this gift of mercy. 

 

I'm sure there are more examples but these come spontaneously to mind. Arya herself is associated with the 'positive' side of mercy through the Hound. She doesn't show mercy but it's a hint that 'the gift' can be seen from that point of view. And of course, the FM give this gift of mercy to those who no longer wish to endure suffering. 

 

The Wild Hunt

 

I've also been looking at the Wild Hunt and while I see it as a reference to the Others, I also see most of the list as wild hunts even though they do not appear to include ghosts. But actually, I think they do :)

 

We have to add one more - Ramsay and his practice of hunting young women.

 

There is a hidden theme of spirit possession in the books, another thing I'm looking into. Those bolded and Ramsay belong in this category, imo. I can't go into all that here, but consider references to Ramsay and Rorge as beasts in human skin. Biter and the Mountain also qualify for this description. They appear more beast than man, so much so, I see it as an insult to beasts :).
From what we know about warging and skinchanging, controlling the animal spirit is essential to keeping control of the animal nature itself. Failing to do this means absorbing more and more of the characteristics of the creature, essentially resulting in a form of spirit-possession / take over of the animal nature. This is a lesson Bran learns from Jojen. Haggon also implies this in his lessons, as Varamyr recalls. Haggon lists the side-effects of skinchanging particular animals:

 

So the man takes on the nature of the creature - skinchanging involves a mingling of spirits. What happens to people who have the gift of skinchanging but do not know it and are not taught to control it and use its power? Could they completely absorb the nature of the beast? I think so. It happens when a skinchanger dies and a dead skinchanger has no more control over the animal because he is.. well, dead.
Humans are in danger of living the beast nature even if they know they are skinchangers and consciously skinchange. How much more so if they do not know they possess an animal familiar and have never learned to control it? 

 

If I'm right, then all those hunts are enacted by 'possessed humans', which places them in the netherworld of spirits and ghosts. I'm not sure about Ser Armory but the rest fit. 

 

Beric himself, as leader of the BwB, can be regarded as a corporeal ghost. Like the wights, he's undead, not quite of the living and not quite of the dead, and Lady Stoneheart as well.

 

 

 

~ I fully agree that sweetsunray continues to provide high quality analyses.  I have learned so much.

~ Very nice examples of support for the first FM being a FW.

~ Recognizing that Haggon is not infallible, his observations regarding the mingling of spirits between skinchangers and their familiars appears to borne out among the Starks + Snow, each direwolf reflecting the personality of its bonded human.  How much each human reflects the animal spirit is less apparent but Rickon and Shaggy appear to be on the same wavelength.  Controlling the animal spirit influence must be challenging and we can only hope Rickon has someone teaching him more control.

~ ~ The point you make about the hunters being unknowingly under the influence of an animal spirit - or beasts in human skin -  is intriguing.  We certainly hear a lot about earlier Starks and the influence of their 'wolf's blood.'

~ ~ I don't know how accurate Haggon's assessment will end up being about the other animals, especially bears, boars, and birds.  I should think it will depend upon how much control the skinchanger maintains.  There have long been rumors associating the Mormonts with skinchanging bears and they do not seem to have become something irredeemable. 

~ ~ As to birds, we have learned that all of the ravens have the residual personalities of skinchangers in them.  It is possible LC Mormont's raven carries some remnant of him.  As I mentioned a long time ago, I suspect that Lady Olenna's husband rode over a cliff while 'hawking' but he was actually skinchanging a bird at the time.

~ ~ With regard to cats, I wonder if this is a little foreshadowing that Arya, who is now skinchanging cats, will soon turn away from the FM.

~ ~ To my recollection, Haggon fails to mention anything about the influences of skinchanging dogs or horses.  Some people to consider would be:

* * Horses - Lyanna, Brandon, Domeric Bolton - their riding skills are legendary; "half horse";  Harwin - son of Master of Horse; how did he outride Arya?

* * Dogs - Sandor, Gregor (Sandor is fiercely loyal to a master; Gregor is likened to a rabid dog)

 

Really nice contribution!

 

 

I'm not sure about this, but I think the cups of ice and fire are related to the idea of true justice / mercy versus vengeance. 

Dany frees slaves and offers them mercy, banishing Jorah was also an act of mercy, but at the same she takes revenge by crucifying the masters. None of them received a fair trial.

 

Arya seems to be all about vengeance. She has her prayer-list. She refuses to give the Hound a mercy death, thus prolonging his suffering. Her immediate thoughts after learning more about the insurance man is that he deserves to die. She struggles with the notion of doing what is 'pleasing' to the god of many faces. In TWoW sample chapter, her desire for revenge, for choosing her own victims, overcomes her training yet again. 

 

So it appears Arya is only drinking from one cup, as opposed to Dany who drinks from both. Since fire is associated with blood, perhaps the cup of fire is related to vengeance, while the cup of ice is associated with justice or true mercy. 

 

I've no real idea on how this may play out if the two ever meet though. Perhaps the key is that in her role as a Valkyre, she will make the right choice, regardless.

 

Dany frees slaves and offers them mercy, banishing Jorah was also an act of mercy, but at the same she takes revenge by crucifying the masters. None of them received a fair trial.

~ My interpretation was a little different from most.  Dany takes over the city as queen.  To her falls the right of pit and gallows.  However, she does not select random people to answer for the crime of the crucifixion of the children.  She puts that back on the masters to decide - - that is, a jury of their peers selects those who are guilty and a proportionate number of perpetrators sent to pay for the crime.  As gruesome as it was, it was a fairer system of jurisprudence than existed before she arrived in the city.  To your point above, I believe Dany did not order the death of all of the masters because she was learning to control her "dragon blood", the influence of being spiritually bonded to dragons.

 

Arya seems to be all about vengeance.  She refuses to give the Hound a mercy death, thus prolonging his suffering.

~ Here again I see things a little differently.  Arya thinks about vengeance a lot.  But her actions are not necessarily those of someone focused solely on revenge.  She truly wants justice in a world where she sees almost none. In fact, she has almost forgotten what some of the perpetrators look like because she lives in a fantastically cruel world, replete with brutality.

   When Arya kills Dareon, it is not because she wanted revenge.  It was the Stark form of justice: NW deserters forfeit their lives.  When called upon by the FM to kill an anonymous man, she looks for a reason that it would be just.  She refused to kill Sandor, not to extend his misery, but because she thought he no longer 'deserved killing.'  The Hound, however, died when she left him there under the trees.

 

   While Arya's story arc has provided me with considerable misgivings, I am delighted to think this Valkyrie aspect is applicable.  I think both Arya and Sandor Clegane have parts to play in the Battle for the Dawn.

 

Really enjoyed your posts.

 

 

ETA:  Aaand, ninja'ed by sweetsunray and Lady Blizzardborn!

[sweetsunray]

We may not always all agree on some of the details, but I thank everyone's contributions. It makes us all think and we're only adding more associations and possible insights to consider into it. So, I thank everyone for having put so much thought and work into their posts.

 

I forgot to mention one more thing regarding the Mercy-murder, especially when we compare it with how Arya voluntarily took the Hound off her list.

 

[spoiler]She overhears Raff with his fellow guard about the dwarf actor - that he intends to kill him for Cersei's price on the Imp's head, and that even if the dwarf actor isn't the Imp, who'd care, "he's just a dwarf". His colleague thinks it's ridiculous. He goes for her while his colleague tells him basically, "WTH, that's a child!", and his colleague also reminds him, he can't just "leave his station/job". Later, when she says, "Quickly, or I'll be late for my rape in the second act,", he comments in a way she shouldn't be worried about not getting raped. So, in a short time she knows Raff is still the scum she always thought he was. He murders innocent people just for the heck of it, he's a pedo, a rapist and doesn't even do his duty. There's no "Mountain that rides" telling him to do monstrous acts. So, he always was scum and still is.[/spoiler]

 

With the Hound she soon learns he talks mean and he can be dangerous, but he's not the scum she thought he was, or at least he's a changed man.

 

One of the examples on how Arya puts someone or doens't put someone on her list - Shitmouth. He talks the dirtiest, swears, foul mouthed, but he's actually a kind man, even if he's part of the gang that hunts with the Mountain. (I think Shitmouth is meant to be a character with Tourette's). He's not on the list. And Goodwife Amabel is another one - Goodwife Amabel is a mean spirited woman, when Arya first meets her, and after the weasel soup. Amabel is mean enough to tell her that when Tywin returns, Arya for sure will lose her head and that she deserves it. Arya thinks she could tell on Amabel to Roose, and then Amabel's head would end up on a spike. But she already knows she wouldn't do that. She understands that Amabel is frightened and angry, and a bitch, but she doesn't go out and harm people.

[Evolett]

Looks like I've brought on a storm of indignation regarding Arya and her desire for 'justice' or 'vengeance' ;) 
I agree with the points all of you have made but I would attribute that to her sense of justice, her ability to judge right from wrong. Putting aside her role as a Valkyre and looking at it from a modern point of view, does that give her the right to be witness, judge and executioner all rolled into one? Maybe vengeance isn't the right word. What she is doing is carrying out Selbstjustiz (I can't seem to think of the corresponding English word) - self-justice / a kind of lynch-mob or vigilante justice, taking matters into her own hands. Tyrion finds himself at the wrong end of this kind of justice in the Vale, where he is perceived to have committed crimes (yes, Lysa jumped at the chance to make him a scapegoat, but that aside) and had to resort to the only kind of 'true justice' available to him - the trial by combat. Letting the gods decide was a better option than waiting for 'the Lord of the Vale', a child influenced by its mother, to sentence him to death for the pleasure of seeing him 'fly'. 
 
In contrast, lord Beric is about true justice. Where Arya would have slain the Hound on the spot, Beric and Thoros make it clear that the man will receive a trail. In fact, Beric equates Arya's kind of justice, executing the accused on account of perceived but not confirmed wrongs with murder. 
 

 

 

“You will die soon enough, dog,” promised Thoros, “but it shan’t be murder, only justice.”

“Aye,” said the Mad Huntsman, “and a kinder fate than you deserve for all your kind have done. Lions, you call yourselves. 

 

 

 

 
He gets a chance to defend himself verbally
 
 

 

 

“People,” said Lord Beric. “People great and small, young and old. Good people and bad people, who died on the points of Lannister spears or saw their bellies opened by Lannister swords.”

“It wasn’t my sword in their bellies. Any man who says it was is a bloody liar.”

“You serve the Lannisters of Casterly Rock,” said Thoros.

“Once. Me and thousands more. Is each of us guilty of the crimes of the others?” Clegane spat. “Might be you are knights after all. You lie like knights, maybe you murder like knights.”

 

 

 

...
 
Arya then accuses him of murder and thinks:
 

 

Thoros drew Lord Beric aside. The two men stood talking in low whispers while Arya seethed. They have to kill him. I prayed for him to die, hundreds and hundreds of times.

 

 

 
She certainly isn't thinking of a trial, she wants her kind of justice done now.
 
 
But Beric is of a different mind - he distinguishes between meting out justice indiscriminately and assures the Hound he'll have a fair trial. The Hound even admits to killing Mycah but that isn't the point, he still gets a trial.
 

 

Beric Dondarrion turned back to the Hound. “You stand accused of murder, but no one here knows the truth or falsehood of the charge, so it is not for us to judge you. Only the Lord of Light may do that now. I sentence you to trial by battle.”

 

The point is nobody knows if the charge is true or not. The Hound is innocent until evidence proclaims him guilty. 

 
Clegane gets his trial and wins. He would be long dead, had he been subjected to Arya's kind of justice. 
 
Under Beric and Thoros, the BwB do their best to be fair. They pay for the food they 'forage' and they offer some kind of trial to captive enemies. 
 
 
Arya had no right to kill Dareon either. A deserter he was, sure the penalty for that is death but it is not her duty to carry out that 'justice'. That's reserved for the Lord of Winterfell or the LC of the NW. Gared and the seventy-nine sentinels were taken to the rightful authority to face their execution. Why didn't their captors kill them on the spot? Because it wasn't their place to do so. 
 
There are so many examples of this kind of warped justice. Joffery misusing his authority, overiding the council's verdict to let Ned live, Tyrion knowing he would never receive a fair trial for Joffery's murder and so on. 
 
The Blackwoods and Brackens are a good example of what happens when people take matters into their own hands for  wrongs perceived done to them.
 
 
In the HoBaW, Arya's training focuses on becoming No One. This also means ridding herself of the kind of emotions that influence judgement and one's own decsion to kill or not to kill. That's not up to her, it's up to the many faced god. In fact, assassins are barred from killing people they know. Arya does not understand this concept. She admits to that herself: 
 
 

 

 

“All men must die. We are but death’s instruments, not death himself. When you slew the singer, you took god’s powers on yourself. We kill men, but we do not presume to judge them. Do you understand?”

No, she thought. “Yes,” she said.

 

 

 

 
In a world lacking a more sophisticated system of legislation, god is considered the ultimate judge. This is not only true for the FM, it's a chance most will take if they can. 
 
 
@ sweetsunray - Regarding the Mercy chapter (interesting that she goes by the name of Mercy),

 

 

[spoiler]do you think Arya was on an official mission, carrying out orders in her role as a FW? Just asking. It appears to me she's doing her own thing because killing Raff is against the rules. She knows him. [/spoiler]

 

 

 

@ Avlonic - I agree with your assessment of Dany - I missed that bit about 'a jury of their peers'

 

 

In conclusion, I would say Arya has a well defined sense of justice, which will serve her in her role as a Valkyre for the 'last battle'. The right decision will have to be made fast. There will be no time to wait for lengthy trials, judgement and ensuing action will have to take place immediately, that's her role as a 'picker'. But in terms of everyday life, this will not serve.  

[Evolett]

Wow - this thread continues to attract exceptional contributors.

 

 

 

~ I fully agree that sweetsunray continues to provide high quality analyses.  I have learned so much.

~ Very nice examples of support for the first FM being a FW.

~ Recognizing that Haggon is not infallible, his observations regarding the mingling of spirits between skinchangers and their familiars appears to borne out among the Starks + Snow, each direwolf reflecting the personality of its bonded human.  How much each human reflects the animal spirit is less apparent but Rickon and Shaggy appear to be on the same wavelength.  Controlling the animal spirit influence must be challenging and we can only hope Rickon has someone teaching him more control.

~ ~ The point you make about the hunters being unknowingly under the influence of an animal spirit - or beasts in human skin -  is intriguing.  We certainly hear a lot about earlier Starks and the influence of their 'wolf's blood.'

~ ~ I don't know how accurate Haggon's assessment will end up being about the other animals, especially bears, boars, and birds.  I should think it will depend upon how much control the skinchanger maintains.  There have long been rumors associating the Mormonts with skinchanging bears and they do not seem to have become something irredeemable. 

~ ~ As to birds, we have learned that all of the ravens have the residual personalities of skinchangers in them.  It is possible LC Mormont's raven carries some remnant of him.  As I mentioned a long time ago, I suspect that Lady Olenna's husband rode over a cliff while 'hawking' but he was actually skinchanging a bird at the time.

~ ~ With regard to cats, I wonder if this is a little foreshadowing that Arya, who is now skinchanging cats, will soon turn away from the FM.

~ ~ To my recollection, Haggon fails to mention anything about the influences of skinchanging dogs or horses.  Some people to consider would be:

* * Horses - Lyanna, Brandon, Domeric Bolton - their riding skills are legendary; "half horse";  Harwin - son of Master of Horse; how did he outride Arya?

* * Dogs - Sandor, Gregor (Sandor is fiercely loyal to a master; Gregor is likened to a rabid dog)

 

Really nice contribution!

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you   :) You bring up some good points. I personally think the 'wolf-blood' includes a taint, along the lines of the taint of madness that sometimes arises in people with the blood of the dragon. Not necessarily madness though. Can't find the quote right now but Ned thinks Brandon and Lyanna died on account of their wolf blood so it may not be that healthy a trait to have. The wolf blood itself doesn't manifest itself in all Starks. Of the characters we know, only Lyanna, Brandon and Arya are said to have the wolf-blood, it obviously conferes some special quality on the bearer.

 

I've also been wondering about skinchanging horses. Some support for this idea comes from BR who uses riding a horse as an example when he explains skinchanging into ravens to Bran:

 

 

“A wild stallion will buck and kick when a man tries to mount him, and try to bite the hand that slips the bit between his teeth,” Lord Brynden said, “but a horse that has known one rider will accept another.

 

 

 

Dany's first experience riding her Silver is also suspiciously reminiscent of skinchanging. First she is fearful but then she loses that fear immediately, almost becoming one with the animal, who responds to the lightest of touches. Her Silver also 'flies' over the flames. Note also that a special saddle is constructed for Bran, so that he will be able to ride.  Hodor carries Bran in a special seat as well and we know Bran skinchanges Hodor. The Dothraki also have a high regard for horses, even ascending to heaven (essentially 'flying) on them after death. I'm not sure, but perhaps there's something there or perhaps they are only metaphors for skinchanging.

 

Perhaps skinchanging originally developed with dogs and horses, it sort of makes sense, since these animals are close to man. As you say, the centaurs really sound like a metaphor for skinchanging and Haggon also chooses dogs  to illustrate his advice.

 

Great observation also on Lady Olena's husband and the hawk. Brings to mind Stannis and the recollection of his 'inferior' hawk, Mel now being his new 'hawk'. Birds of prey generally seem suited as skinchanging animals. The falcon also falls in this category and is perhaps the true meaning behind the Winged Knight. Actually, I think it is. IMO, Sweetrobin is very likely a budding skinchanger / greenseer and his preoccupation with 'flying' and stories about the Winged Knight reflect this. Problem is, he has no tutor.  

 

So yes, I agree there's something there, it's only a matter of figuring it out. 

[Meera of Tarth]

 

It is likely the First was in fact a woman, while women are rare in the order. With Arya ticking off so many Valkyrie features, I think the FM have a prophecy regarding a girl-child to be the FIrst Born Again who strongly knows the will of the Many Faced God, and want her as the god's voice to guide them against the foes who would destroy humanity and defy the natural order of life and death, for she will intuitively know which deaths and which sacrifices would please the Many Faced God.

Your theory is very interesting, and well argueed, as usual. Congratulations! I see your points about Arya as a Valkyrie, and despite the fact that they are all well discussed the thing that really caught my eye was the ending: do the FM want Arya as a Valkyrie? I'm also wondering if her stage with the FM is just a punctual adventure in her journey or they may have been hiding something and are really interested in Arya... 

 

 

While Bran gets lured to the cave with the "well of knowledge" in the frost lands where an Odin like Bloodraven waits for him, Arya journeys and ends up in both misty worlds - Riverlands and Braavos, both associated with death and resurrection - working for a god called the Many Faced God (a literary reference to Odin). Both have an arc where they end up being initiated in behind the scenes mechanisations. So, both Arya and Bran must have an important behind the scene role. Bran's the greenseer - the one who can see past and present and the future perhaps. He can communicate, through ravens and hearttrees, making other characters think the gods are speaking to them (Theon for example). Arya isn't a greenseer, though she's a skinchanger and warg. So, she must have some other function, one that's related to death as well as female. The FM only have her function as a girl. She never is disguised as a boy with them. So, you end up with Odin's Valkyries.

 

If you know that Odin the god has 4 animals by his side - 2 ravens and 2 wolves, then Bran and Arya are Odin's two wolves... Freki and Greki. Their names are "ravenous" and "greedy", both related to an immmense hunger. Bran's arc often mentions hunger and the warning that Summer eating only fills Summer's stomach, not Bran's. Arya eats almost anything - insects, apples from trees with worms inside, the kindly man's worm of his skull. "Are you hungry child," he asks her afterwards. "Yes", she says, but not for food, she thinks.  

 

 

Arya and Bran as important behind-the-scene roles would be an enthralling ending, because anybody expects both of them to be relevant in a mysterious way.

 

 

Anyhow, all this to point out how 'cupbearing' is a position of female mythological power. It makes women the kingmakers, and ultimately over life and death. Who doesn't get his thirst lavished, dies of thirst. And it's also much clearler why in the Valkyrie related legends, they are so often accosted by the (tragic) heroes to lend their support and help them become the king. In Norse mythology it isn't the sisters the heroes turn to for right to rule, but the help of a Valkyrie. So, Arya's end-game role might involve her being a kingmaker (and Sansa), especially related to brothers or cousin.

 

 

For a patrlineal culture, GRRM weaves in a lot of choices and plotlines that fit the matrilineal heritance in a symbolical way. And if we think of Stark restoration we have to look for Sansa and Arya and LS to bring it about. Robb's dead, Bran's wed to a tree and cripple (with significant influence and importance), Rickon is like 5 or 6, and Jon's wed to the Wall. Rickon and/or Jon may end up ruling, but it will depend on their sisters/cousins, Arya and Sansa. 

 

So, a cup can be the gift of mercy, of heealing, of death, of life, as well as kingmaking. While we see it often in combination with death with Arya as a Valkyrie, her cupbearing can expand beyond it, especially since some Valkyries were actual kingmakers.

 

Personally, I take Arya's refusal to give the Hound the gift of mercy ambiguously. It was not just a decision to make him suffer before death. She had actually already taken Sandor of her list. She had lifted the mark of death from him, unnamed him. The Hound may have died, but Sandor lives. As ambiguously it was written, especially with what we learn through Brienne on the Quiet Isle later on, I think that Arya wanted both things: for him to suffer as well as live.

 

****off-topic: I didn't know the aspects of matrilineal heritance, and it's curious how the Stark family (particularly Jon) is written*****

 

Then, when you pointed out the other roles of the Valkyrie (I am not familiar about this mythology) I thought it made more sense. So, I see two points here:

 

1-What if her supposed Valkyrie role is more heterogeneous? She may learn from her experiences, and ultimately serve the god's will not just in terms of who is going to die, but who is going to rule, or who is going to win? 

 

What I find strange is that, as a reader, I haven't felt that she is serving the will of the God's, but actually, that her her decisions are a combination of fear and a partial sense of justice. But yes, maybe it is a hidden role we are not supposed to discover; but it would be interesting if the FM did actually tell her of that (if she is a valkyrie, will she realize that?)

 

2-Maybe The FM think that she is important, a "Valkyrie" or something like that, and have something prepared for her, even if she is just a normal girl.

 

 

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

That part of Dany's vision reminds me of the "cup of cold" that Arya must drink to truly become a FM. The quote itself reminds me more of Jon because of the combination of ice and fire. Also I definitely don't think that Arya would ever be sent to kill Dany as a mission, so I'm really not sure how they could meet.

Arya will be let go from the FM and travel to see the dragons.  Someone else will be sent to kill Dany (the Waif, taking Missandei's face).  Arya will recognize the tactics and save Dany's life.  Just a thought.

 

 

Looks like I've brought on a storm of indignation regarding Arya and her desire for 'justice' or 'vengeance' ;) 
I agree with the points all of you have made but I would attribute that to her sense of justice, her ability to judge right from wrong. Putting aside her role as a Valkyre and looking at it from a modern point of view, does that give her the right to be witness, judge and executioner all rolled into one? Maybe vengeance isn't the right word. What she is doing is carrying out Selbstjustiz (I can't seem to think of the corresponding English word) - self-justice / a kind of lynch-mob or vigilante justice, taking matters into her own hands. Tyrion finds himself at the wrong end of this kind of justice in the Vale, where he is perceived to have committed crimes (yes, Lysa jumped at the chance to make him a scapegoat, but that aside) and had to resort to the only kind of 'true justice' available to him - the trial by combat. Letting the gods decide was a better option than waiting for 'the Lord of the Vale', a child influenced by its mother, to sentence him to death for the pleasure of seeing him 'fly'. 
 
In contrast, lord Beric is about true justice. Where Arya would have slain the Hound on the spot, Beric and Thoros make it clear that the man will receive a trail. In fact, Beric equates Arya's kind of justice, executing the accused on account of perceived but not confirmed wrongs with murder. 
 

 <snip

 
 
Arya had no right to kill Dareon either. A deserter he was, sure the penalty for that is death but it is not her duty to carry out that 'justice'. That's reserved for the Lord of Winterfell or the LC of the NW. Gared and the seventy-nine sentinels were taken to the rightful authority to face their execution. Why didn't their captors kill them on the spot? Because it wasn't their place to do so. 
 
There are so many examples of this kind of warped justice. Joffery misusing his authority, overiding the council's verdict to let Ned live, Tyrion knowing he would never receive a fair trial for Joffery's murder and so on. 
 
The Blackwoods and Brackens are a good example of what happens when people take matters into their own hands for  wrongs perceived done to them.
 
 
In the HoBaW, Arya's training focuses on becoming No One. This also means ridding herself of the kind of emotions that influence judgement and one's own decsion to kill or not to kill. That's not up to her, it's up to the many faced god. In fact, assassins are barred from killing people they know. Arya does not understand this concept. She admits to that herself: 
 

In a world lacking a more sophisticated system of legislation, god is considered the ultimate judge. This is not only true for the FM, it's a chance most will take if they can. 
 

 

In conclusion, I would say Arya has a well defined sense of justice, which will serve her in her role as a Valkyre for the 'last battle'. The right decision will have to be made fast. There will be no time to wait for lengthy trials, judgement and ensuing action will have to take place immediately, that's her role as a 'picker'. But in terms of everyday life, this will not serve.  

Not indignation.  Just disagreement.

 

Well yes, but Beric is a grown man and Arya is a child who has been through hell and given way more power than any girl her age should have.  I think we should give her time before making any lasting judgments about her.

 

And Beric doesn't know about Mycah, whereas Arya does.  In her child's mind she doesn't allow for the fact that he was "following orders."  How many 10 year olds, knowing one of their only friends has been murdered by someone, would care if that person got a trial or not?

 

From your POV.  From Arya's she's the only Stark left and it falls to her.  No where in the text does it say that only the Lord of Winterfell and the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch can execute NW deserters.  Why didn't the men who captured Gared execute him on the spot?  Might have had something to do with him talkling about the Others, and them not being used to executing anyone because Lord Eddard usually deals with that.  If you met a Night's Watch deserter who was clearly scared out of his wits and was talking about the Others, wouldn't you want to hand him off to someone else so you don't have to deal with it?  You don't think Tywin Lannister would have had the man executed if he'd ended up caught in the Riverlands instead of the North?  What about the men Theon was shooting at when Bran was accosted?  I don't remember them getting any trial, or waiting for Robb/Ned/Jeor Mormont to pass sentence.  

 

Again, you're comparing a traumatized child adults.  Tyrion, the Blackwoods, the Brackens, etc.  Joffrey, well he's a child too, but he's a category unto himself and his problems are all his mother's fault whereas there's really no one person to blame for Arya's development.  The adults all understand these things (or at least should) far better than she would or could.  The time when she should have been maturing and being taught these sorts of things is the time she's spent running from people who want her dead, and trying to survive when the rest of her family--as far as she knows, except for Sansa--has been killed by the very people they should have been able to trust.   Now she's hooked up with a group of people who take death very seriously, and accept money for it.  Given all of this it's no wonder she has a rather skewed view of the world.  But she's only 11, so she has time to get things straightened out in her head, assuming the author will let her. ;)

 

Yes.  Most people in general would struggle with that concept, even those older than 11, and Arya's inability to abide by the decree to abandon her identity may be what saves her from becoming a total psycho. 

 

Funny, that's exactly the rationale behind her knocking off Dareon.  There wasn't time.  She couldn't arrest him and take him to Winterfell or the Wall.  And I don't think anyone could say the little rat didn't deserve it.  I imagine the Many-Faced God didn't mind that one.  In fact, I could even see Arya making the argument that if the MFG didn't want her killing Dareon, he could have stopped her somehow.  I really hope she doesn't go that route though.  Not a lot of lightning bolts are likely to hit her no matter who she wants to kill.

[Lady Barbrey]

I've been following the arguments about vengeance versus justice with some interest. Partly this is because of my interest in real world Barrows,which draugr, revenants of the dead,are said to haunt. Their purpose is always vengeance. The description of a draugr rereminded me strongly of Lady Stoneheart and vengeance is her stated goal. So there is one parent of Arya.

But while vengeance motivates her mother, it is justice that motivates her father. He is literally judge, jury and executioner. However, as lord of the realm, he is not a vigilante. His actual lawful right and role is to be all three.

The text to me has demonstrated that Arya stands between the two. Dareon was certainly imitative of her father's role, while others on her list at least seem motivated by vengeance on her part.

What is interesting to me is that the FM blind Arya. Correct me if I'm wrong - I'm Canadian - but isn't Lady Justice in America shown as blindfolded? The blinding of Arya could denote the FM wanting her to learn 'blind obedience' or it perhaps has a different shading - of learning justice not vengeance. Using the scales of Justice properly.

The FM do seem to want Arya to follow their orders blindly to a degrees but perhaps it's not just that. If she is to become a Valkyrie figure proper, and trusted with agency in that role, she cannot be allowed to act from personal vengeance like her mother nor as judge, jury and executioner without mercy (as we saw Eddard display in his first scene)like her father. But it is interesting that when Eddard does show Mercy - to Cersei and her children - it backfires on him badly.

So it is a particularly disinterested Mercy that Arya will need to need to demonstrate. And she already has when giving the Gift of Life. She threw that axe into the cage of murderers - an act of Mercy and justice in the circumstances. Nobody else did this. Regardless of whether Jaqen was already interested in her, this act meant something to hI'm, revealed to him what she really was.

But the Hound was different; it was more personalpersonal but she strangely did not make a personal decision She did not kill the Hound out of vengeance nor let him live out of vengeance. She did not kill the hound out of mercy or let him live out of mercy. She was all justice - she calculated what he deserved and decided to leave him to Fate. This was not her decision to make; the scale was balanced.

[sweetsunray]

I've been following the arguments about vengeance versus justice with some interest. Partly this is because of my interest in real world Barrows,which draugr, revenants of the dead,are said to haunt. Their purpose is always vengeance. The description of a draugr rereminded me strongly of Lady Stoneheart and vengeance is her stated goal. So there is one parent of Arya.

But while vengeance motivates her mother, it is justice that motivates her father. He is literally judge, jury and executioner. However, as lord of the realm, he is not a vigilante. His actual lawful right and role is to be all three.

The text to me has demonstrated that Arya stands between the two. Dareon was certainly imitative of her father's role, while others on her list at least seem motivated by vengeance on her part.

What is interesting to me is that the FM blind Arya. Correct me if I'm wrong - I'm Canadian - but isn't Lady Justice in America shown as blindfolded? The blinding of Arya could denote the FM wanting her to learn 'blind obedience' or it perhaps has a different shading - of learning justice not vengeance. Using the scales of Justice properly.

The FM do seem to want Arya to follow their orders blindly to a degrees but perhaps it's not just that. If she is to become a Valkyrie figure proper, and trusted with agency in that role, she cannot be allowed to act from personal vengeance like her mother nor as judge, jury and executioner without mercy (as we saw Eddard display in his first scene)like her father. But it is interesting that when Eddard does show Mercy - to Cersei and her children - it backfires on him badly.

So it is a particularly disinterested Mercy that Arya will need to need to demonstrate. And she already has when giving the Gift of Life. She threw that axe into the cage of murderers - an act of Mercy and justice in the circumstances. Nobody else did this. Regardless of whether Jaqen was already interested in her, this act meant something to hI'm, revealed to him what she really was.

But the Hound was different; it was more personalpersonal but she strangely did not make a personal decision She did not kill the Hound out of vengeance nor let him live out of vengeance. She did not kill the hound out of mercy or let him live out of mercy. She was all justice - she calculated what he deserved and decided to leave him to Fate. This was not her decision to make; the scale was balanced.

 

Superb connection: yes, Lady Justice is blind. Emotions don't come into the equation, although humaneness must remain. And justice ought to be delivered and executed with dispassion.

 

Yes, I agree with the Hound. You can't conclusively say anything about it, other than that she was merciful enough to lavish his thirst, and decided to leave it to fate.

 

There is one name on her list that I think is of immense importance to her arc, one that would be confrontational and mirror-like to the Hound's fate as well as her own arc - Ilyn Payne. He looks ghastly. He's a mess of a man in his personal life. But he executes the orders he's been given without cruelty, much like the Hound. Is she at some point capable of taking him off her list as well?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I've been following the arguments about vengeance versus justice with some interest. Partly this is because of my interest in real world Barrows,which draugr, revenants of the dead,are said to haunt. Their purpose is always vengeance. The description of a draugr rereminded me strongly of Lady Stoneheart and vengeance is her stated goal. So there is one parent of Arya.

But while vengeance motivates her mother, it is justice that motivates her father. He is literally judge, jury and executioner. However, as lord of the realm, he is not a vigilante. His actual lawful right and role is to be all three.

The text to me has demonstrated that Arya stands between the two. Dareon was certainly imitative of her father's role, while others on her list at least seem motivated by vengeance on her part.

What is interesting to me is that the FM blind Arya. Correct me if I'm wrong - I'm Canadian - but isn't Lady Justice in America shown as blindfolded? The blinding of Arya could denote the FM wanting her to learn 'blind obedience' or it perhaps has a different shading - of learning justice not vengeance. Using the scales of Justice properly.

The FM do seem to want Arya to follow their orders blindly to a degrees but perhaps it's not just that. If she is to become a Valkyrie figure proper, and trusted with agency in that role, she cannot be allowed to act from personal vengeance like her mother nor as judge, jury and executioner without mercy (as we saw Eddard display in his first scene)like her father. But it is interesting that when Eddard does show Mercy - to Cersei and her children - it backfires on him badly.

So it is a particularly disinterested Mercy that Arya will need to need to demonstrate. And she already has when giving the Gift of Life. She threw that axe into the cage of murderers - an act of Mercy and justice in the circumstances. Nobody else did this. Regardless of whether Jaqen was already interested in her, this act meant something to hI'm, revealed to him what she really was.

But the Hound was different; it was more personalpersonal but she strangely did not make a personal decision She did not kill the Hound out of vengeance nor let him live out of vengeance. She did not kill the hound out of mercy or let him live out of mercy. She was all justice - she calculated what he deserved and decided to leave him to Fate. This was not her decision to make; the scale was balanced.

:cheers:   Well reasoned and well said, Lady Barbrey!  The paragraph about the Hound is particularly profound.

[sweetsunray]

 

Then, when you pointed out the other roles of the Valkyrie (I am not familiar about this mythology) I thought it made more sense. So, I see two points here:

 

1-What if her supposed Valkyrie role is more heterogeneous? She may learn from her experiences, and ultimately serve the god's will not just in terms of who is going to die, but who is going to rule, or who is going to win? 

 

What I find strange is that, as a reader, I haven't felt that she is serving the will of the God's, but actually, that her her decisions are a combination of fear and a partial sense of justice. But yes, maybe it is a hidden role we are not supposed to discover; but it would be interesting if the FM did actually tell her of that (if she is a valkyrie, will she realize that?)

 

2-Maybe The FM think that she is important, a "Valkyrie" or something else and have something prepared for her, even if she is just a normal girl.

 

Coming back to the Valkyrie role, and her being a very rare female FM. We know of only one other woman at present with the FM - the waif. But she's not working as an assassin, is she? She's the poison maker; the apothecary really. And what about the kindly man - he's a priest and teacher. He can obviously change his face, but he's not an assassin (anymore). And they are in a very subtle way trying to teach her about justice (the blind version), about death, about mercy. He's giving her the clues to come to her own conclusions, which is the best way to teach imo.

 

For the moment, the kindly man certainly acts the opposite when it comes to her being a chosen Valkyrie - that she's not special, that he doesn't care whether she stays or goes. He's doing everything to turn down the ego-knob a notch. But it's possible we as readers get the confirmation, through some story, and for Arya to make her own conclusions, when she fits "the blind justice" concept more and more.

[Meera of Tarth]

 
Coming back to the Valkyrie role, and her being a very rare female FM. We know of only one other woman at present with the FM - the waif. But she's not working as an assassin, is she? She's the poison maker; the apothecary really. And what about the kindly man - he's a priest and teacher. He can obviously change his face, but he's not an assassin (anymore). And they are in a very subtle way trying to teach her about justice (the blind version), about death, about mercy. He's giving her the clues to come to her own conclusions, which is the best way to teach imo.
 
For the moment, the kindly man certainly acts the opposite when it comes to her being a chosen Valkyrie - that she's not special, that he doesn't care whether she stays or goes. He's doing everything to turn down the ego-knob a notch. But it's possible we as readers get the confirmation, through some story, and for Arya to make her own conclusions, when she fits "the blind justice" concept more and more.

 
I felt that their way of "training" her was a bit strange: "what do you know that you didn't know when you left us"?
But it was effective, she learns Braavosi, and the chapter when she was blind was very interesting. She actually learned a lot. I thought she was only learning to become an assassin, but the FM are mysterious people. Why is she (apparently) the only member with the same type of training? Tell me if I am wrong, but I don't remember anyone except her in that situation in the House of Black and White.
 
I can buy it. I really want her to change and learn from her experiences. And if there is more than meets the eye with the FM (and Arya) it will be really intriguing.

[Meera of Tarth]

 

:cheers:   Well reasoned and well said, Lady Barbrey!  The paragraph about the Hound is particularly profound.

 

But the Hound was different; it was more personalpersonal but she strangely did not make a personal decision She did not kill the Hound out of vengeance nor let him live out of vengeance. She did not kill the hound out of mercy or let him live out of mercy. She was all justice - she calculated what he deserved and decided to leave him to Fate. This was not her decision to make; the scale was balanced.

Agree.

[Lady Barbrey]

 
Superb connection: yes, Lady Justice is blind. Emotions don't come into the equation, although humaneness must remain. And justice ought to be delivered and executed with dispassion.
 
Yes, I agree with the Hound. You can't conclusively say anything about it, other than that she was merciful enough to lavish his thirst, and decided to leave it to fate.
 
There is one name on her list that I think is of immense importance to her arc, one that would be confrontational and mirror-like to the Hound's fate as well as her own arc - Ilyn Payne. He looks ghastly. He's a mess of a man in his personal life. But he executes the orders he's been given without cruelty, much like the Hound. Is she at some point capable of taking him off her list as well?

Thanks. I have wondered about this ever since i found out his tongue was removed because he spoke up about Aerys.

[Lady Barbrey]

 
Coming back to the Valkyrie role, and her being a very rare female FM. We know of only one other woman at present with the FM - the waif. But she's not working as an assassin, is she? She's the poison maker; the apothecary really. And what about the kindly man - he's a priest and teacher. He can obviously change his face, but he's not an assassin (anymore). And they are in a very subtle way trying to teach her about justice (the blind version), about death, about mercy. He's giving her the clues to come to her own conclusions, which is the best way to teach imo.
 
For the moment, the kindly man certainly acts the opposite when it comes to her being a chosen Valkyrie - that she's not special, that he doesn't care whether she stays or goes. He's doing everything to turn down the ego-knob a notch. But it's possible we as readers get the confirmation, through some story, and for Arya to make her own conclusions, when she fits "the blind justice" concept more and more.

I agree. I think that's what they want from her.