Bael's Bastard Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 I'm sure even GRRM is someone else. Like, Santa Claus or something. It has been Bin Laden in a GRRM glamour since 2000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the Narrow Sea Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 There is only 1 question you need to ask yourself: If Jon was indeed a Dayne, why wasn't he left with the Daynes when Eddard dropped off Dawn? If he's Ashara's son she killed herself and can't look after him, and if he's Arthur's son he was killed by Ned and can't look after him. Either way, Lord Dayne would have had to look after one of his siblings byblows, and not everyone's as willing to do that as Ned is if you assume that Jon isn't his son and he's been raising one of his siblings child. For instance, you just have to look at what Stannis did when Edric Storm was born. He said fuck that and shipped him away from Dragonstone to Storm's End so that 10 year old Renly could raise him because he felt Edric was a dishonor to him and his wife. Perhaps Lord Dayne felt the same (that Jon was a dishonor to his family) and said that there was no way in hell that he was going to raise this child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Stark-Targaryen Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 If he's Ashara's son she killed herself and can't look after him, and if he's Arthur's son he was killed by Ned and can't look after him. Either way, Lord Dayne would have had to look after one of his siblings byblows, and not everyone's as willing to do that as Ned is if you assume that Jon isn't his son and he's been raising one of his siblings child. For instance, you just have to look at what Stannis did when Edric Storm was born. He said fuck that and shipped him away from Dragonstone to Storm's End so that 10 year old Renly could raise him because he felt Edric was a dishonor to him and his wife. Perhaps Lord Dayne felt the same (that Jon was a dishonor to his family) and said that there was no way in hell that he was going to raise this child. This is not convincing at all. Edric Dayne clearly has heard the people around Starfall talk about Jon. He's all of 12 years old. If Lord Dayne felt this way, there's no way his son would have had the conversation he did with Arya while they traveled with the Brotherhood. Jon is his "milk brother." And his nickname is Ned. You're reaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Stark-Targaryen Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 There is only 1 question you need to ask yourself: If Jon was indeed a Dayne, why wasn't he left with the Daynes when Eddard dropped off Dawn? Still waiting for this question to be answered convincingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the Narrow Sea Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 This is not convincing at all. Edric Dayne clearly has heard the people around Starfall talk about Jon. He's all of 12 years old. If Lord Dayne felt this way, there's no way his son would have had the conversation he did with Arya while they traveled with the Brotherhood. Jon is his "milk brother." And his nickname is Ned. You're reaching. It's a far better explanation that RLJ basically presents where Ned agreed to raise Rhaegar's son and Lord Dayne's all "That Ned's a swell guy, looking after Rhaegar's child for him even though he wasn't a Targ loyalist. You know, when I have a son 4 years from now, I'm going to name him after him in honor of that brave man even though he killed my brother and my sister". In that scenario all Ned did was bring them Dawn, after he'd just killed Arthur and buried him in an unmarked grave, and then Ashara ends up killing herself either while Ned's still at Starfall or after Ned left. In which case there's no way that Lord Dayne would ever feel anything but resentment for Ned. A familial sword is nice and all, but it doesn't really make up for everything Ned did that negatively affected House Dayne. That is reaching. Saying Ned showed up and did a favor for Lord Dayne is not. He'd still be guilty of having killed Arthur and not bringing them his bones, and contributing to Ashara's death, but he'd have done more for the Dayne's than simply brought them their sword. The more you thrown in that Ned did for House Dayne, the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 It's a far better explanation that RLJ basically presents where Ned agreed to raise Rhaegar's son and Lord Dayne's all "That Ned's a swell guy, looking after Rhaegar's child for him even though he wasn't a Targ loyalist. You know, when I have a son 4 years from now, I'm going to name him after him in honor of that brave man even though he killed my brother and my sister". In that scenario all Ned did was bring them Dawn, after he'd just killed Arthur and buried him in an unmarked grave, and then Ashara ends up killing herself either while Ned's still at Starfall or after Ned left. In which case there's no way that Lord Dayne would ever feel anything but resentment for Ned. A familial sword is nice and all, but it doesn't really make up for everything Ned did that negatively affected House Dayne. No big deal, right? That's a hugely honorable gesture on Ned's part. Not to mention, he delivered the news of Arthur's death. Sure, not happy news, but better than not knowing. So that's a big deal too. That is reaching. Saying Ned showed up and did a favor for Lord Dayne is not. He'd still be guilty of having killed Arthur and not bringing them his bones, and contributing to Ashara's death, but he'd have done more for the Dayne's than simply brought them their sword. The more you thrown in that Ned did for House Dayne, the better. Ashara's suicide was her own choice (if she is in fact dead). Arthur was a knight of the KG who died in battle. Ned was under no obligation to do anything with his body, let alone return Dawn to Starfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Ashara's suicide was her own choice (if she is in fact dead). Arthur was a knight of the KG who died in battle. Ned was under no obligation to do anything with his body, let alone return Dawn to Starfall. It's a war trophy. (And I know about those: my neighbour country and my own have been fighting over one for around a century. They won't return it. Why would they? :dunno: ). Not many people or countries would return such trophy to the losing part. I mean, look at what happened to Ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 It's a war trophy. (And I know about those: my neighbour country and my own have been fighting over one for around a century. They won't return it. Why would they? :dunno: ). Not many people or countries would return such trophy to the losing part. I mean, look at what happened to Ice. Exactly. The Smiling Knight made it known that he wanted Dawn. And it's not a coincidence that Tywin did what he did to Ice, while Ned returned Dawn. It's a great way to show just how different the two men were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 I am wondering that if ned told house dayne that he buried arthur in TOJ. If so, will not they want to go there and move arthur back to their own place? It is quite close and I am pretty sure house dayne knew where TOJ is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nozlym Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 It's a war trophy. (And I know about those: my neighbour country and my own have been fighting over one for around a century. They won't return it. Why would they? :dunno: ). Not many people or countries would return such trophy to the losing part. I mean, look at what happened to Ice. another reason on y he did might of been because he had a thing for Ashara. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 another reason on y he did might of been because he had a thing for Ashara. Probably. But I've heard that killing the brother of the girl you love is a terrible mood killer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nozlym Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Probably. But I've heard that killing the brother of the girl you love is a terrible mood killer. lol yes i know that but i think he felt he owed it to her, knowing that afterward she would probably hate him. its just the honourable and stubborn thing Ned would do. but thats just one possible explanation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monoman32 Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 I'm still waiting for the explanation of why Ned would send Dany across the Narrow Sea to Viserys and Darry. I reckon of the promises Ned made to Lyanna was to keep the TOJ baby safe, but sending Dany to Viserys was the worse thing he could have done. He planted a target on the TOJ baby's back and gave another dragonspawn target for Robert. And let's not even begin to talk about the logistics of it all. A bastard daughter would have a been upbringing than a bastard son so regardless of appearance Ned could have raised the baby as his child. Plus people are always coming on here and talking about how the Daynes have Valyrian appearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nozlym Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 I'm still waiting for the explanation of why Ned would send Dany across the Narrow Sea to Viserys and Darry. I reckon of the promises Ned made to Lyanna was to keep the TOJ baby safe, but sending Dany to Viserys was the worse thing he could have done. He planted a target on the TOJ baby's back and gave another dragonspawn target for Robert. And let's not even begin to talk about the logistics of it all. A bastard daughter would have a been upbringing than a bastard son so regardless of appearance Ned could have raised the baby as his child. Plus people are always coming on here and talking about how the Daynes have Valyrian appearance. where are u getting this logic from? Ned had no dealings with Dany until he was on the Roberts small council Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the Narrow Sea Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 No big deal, right? That's a hugely honorable gesture on Ned's part. Not to mention, he delivered the news of Arthur's death. Sure, not happy news, but better than not knowing. So that's a big deal too. Delivering the sword and news of Arthur's death are the same thing. Ned wouldn't have had the sword unless Arthur was dead. But anyways that ignored my point that returning the sword doesn't really overcome the fact 4 years later when Lord Dayne's trying to name his newborn son that he'd affectionately call him Ned when the previous Ned we know of had killed/contributed to the death of both Lord Dayne's siblings. You'd have to say that Lord Dayne appreciated his family's sword more than his brother and sister Ashara's suicide was her own choice (if she is in fact dead). Arthur was a knight of the KG who died in battle. Ned was under no obligation to do anything with his body, let alone return Dawn to Starfall. Pretty much every story of Ashara's suicide speaks of how Ned played a role in it so he's still tied to her death, whether it was her choice or not. Arthur dying in battle is still no guarantee that Lord Dayne wouldn't have been angry at whoever killed him as just look at what Rickard Karstark did despite his sons being killed in battle. And anyways, we don't even know that Ned went out of his way to return Dawn. We're told that after Ned killed Arthur he returned Dawn "to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea". Which makes it sound like Ned had already been planning to go to Starfall/it was known he was going there if Ashara "awaited him". Bringing Dawn wasn't something that required any extra effort from Ned in that case It's a war trophy. (And I know about those: my neighbour country and my own have been fighting over one for around a century. They won't return it. Why would they? :dunno: ). Not many people or countries would return such trophy to the losing part. I mean, look at what happened to Ice. Ice was demanded back by Robb and Tyrion said he'd give it back as soon as Robb surrendered "Lord Stark asked for his sisters and his father's sword as well," Ser Cleos reminded him. Ser Ilyn Payne stood mute, the hilt of Eddard Stark's greatsword rising over one shoulder. "Ice," said Tyrion. "He'll have that when he makes his peace with us, not before." The intention was all along to have Ice back in Stark hands, however the war was settled (if Robb won he'd obviously get it back himself, and if the Lannisters won they were going to give it back). Tywin was greedy and decided to keep the sword, and Catelyn and Jaime are both shocked that Tywin did this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of the Narrow Sea Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 I'm still waiting for the explanation of why Ned would send Dany across the Narrow Sea to Viserys and Darry. I reckon of the promises Ned made to Lyanna was to keep the TOJ baby safe, but sending Dany to Viserys was the worse thing he could have done. He planted a target on the TOJ baby's back and gave another dragonspawn target for Robert. And let's not even begin to talk about the logistics of it all. A bastard daughter would have a been upbringing than a bastard son so regardless of appearance Ned could have raised the baby as his child. Plus people are always coming on here and talking about how the Daynes have Valyrian appearance. No one ever said that Ned sent Dany across the Narrow Sea. The TOJ's in Dorne, and Dany has memories of Dorne. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if R+L=D Ned didn't send her out of Dorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anythingatall Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Dany had a vision of a great wolf (direwolf) and a man wreathed in flames. Who is definitely Jon, a Stark wolf wreathed in Targaryen flames. Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames. I believe R+L = J but sometimes a wolf is just a wolf. To say the man is 'definitely' Jon is a bit of a stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Delivering the sword and news of Arthur's death are the same thing. Ned wouldn't have had the sword unless Arthur was dead. But anyways that ignored my point that returning the sword doesn't really overcome the fact 4 years later when Lord Dayne's trying to name his newborn son that he'd affectionately call him Ned when the previous Ned we know of had killed/contributed to the death of both Lord Dayne's siblings. You'd have to say that Lord Dayne appreciated his family's sword more than his brother and sister Two birds, one stone. No you wouldn't. He probably had a great deal of respect for the way Ned handled the situation. I'm sure the Lord Dayne understood the risks his brother faced as a member of the KG. Pretty much every story of Ashara's suicide speaks of how Ned played a role in it so he's still tied to her death, whether it was her choice or not. Arthur dying in battle is still no guarantee that Lord Dayne wouldn't have been angry at whoever killed him as just look at what Rickard Karstark did despite his sons being killed in battle. Ned delivered her news. While her suicide might be tied to the content of that news, Ned is blameless. Which any reasonable person, like the Lord Dayne for example, would realize. No one ever said that Ned sent Dany across the Narrow Sea. The TOJ's in Dorne, and Dany has memories of Dorne. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if R+L=D Ned didn't send her out of Dorne. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that eventually this supposed RLD baby ended up across the Narrow Sea with Viserys at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 I believe R+L = J but sometimes a wolf is just a wolf. To say the man is 'definitely' Jon is a bit of a stretch. The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. **the image of man and wolf was wreathed (covered) and limned (illuminate) in flames (tounges of red and orange). **MMD, who performed the ritual, learned shadow binding in Asshai, like Mel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anythingatall Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. **the image of man and wolf was wreathed (covered) and limned (illuminate) in flames (tounges of red and orange). **MMD, who performed the ritual, learned shadow binding in Asshai, like Mel. So? Are you saying that a Jon Snow vision appears as standard in all magic performed by anybody that trained in Asshai? Mel was performing entirely different magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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