Would you be upset of Jon Snow was a Dayne instead of a Targaryen?

[purple-eyes]

'I hate Rhaegar, Arthur Is cooler' is the rationale behind all this, I've read many theories & they all have two things in common. They're imaginative & include little to no quotes from the books, strong theories are based on the content on the pages, not personal favoritism..

 

I do hate Rhaegar and Arthur is indeed cooler. :)

But the book is there, so I can not argue about Jon is son of Rhaegar. 

I do wish Arthur has a child around, that will be nice. 

Maybe he fathered a child before he joined KG?

He was at least 16 years old when he joined KG. 

This age is more than enough for him to have a child somewhere. (Darkstar!!! Sorry, I am just joking. )

[Lady Sharya]

I think this means sword Dawn may play some role (maybe in Jon's hands) in the future.
But Dayne people like Arthur and Ashara are really not as important as many people think. 
Definitely not the parents of Jon Snow.

I really don't understand how you can state your opinion with such certainty. I disagree and think their house motto being important means their house is important. It makes more sense.

[Hangover of the Morning]

I'd be personally quite happy if he was a Dayne rather than a Targaryen. I love the former and am not much of a fan of the latter. 

 

However, I don't see it being even remotely possible. The clues for R + L =J are too strong and neither N + A or A + L make any sense given what we know. The only way for it to be plausible was if Lyanna was sleeping with Arthur on the side without anyone's knowledge. In that case, Jon would be a potential "secret Dayne", which would be meaningless (and stupid) anyways since nobody would know or could be sure. 

 

Like purple-eyes I'd love for Arthur to have some love life, as he's one of my favourite character, but I don't see how Jon could be the product of it unless the ToJ was an excuse for one big orgy. 

[OuttaOldtown]

Will never understand loving a character that has no real dialogue, some people just love tiny macho knight snippet-quotes. I thoroughly enjoy the fact that Darkstar bombed..

[purple-eyes]

I really don't understand how you can state your opinion with such certainty. I disagree and think their house motto being important means their house is important. It makes more sense.

 

Ok, they are important. Maybe little ned would be a key figure somewhere in the future books. 

[purple-eyes]

Will never understand loving a character that has no real dialogue, some people just love tiny macho knight snippet-quotes. I thoroughly enjoy the fact that Darkstar bombed..

 

You mean Arthur? come on, he is quite cool. 

Even Rhaegar did not have much dialogue, but you see everybody is loving him. 

[lojzelote]

I think that the Daynes are left-overs of the Great Empire of the Dawn that outlived the Empire and later assimilated to the life among the first Men and later Andals. I also think that the involvement of the Daynes' ancestors in the first Long Night may have helped in bringing Rhaegar and Arthur together, since Rhaegar had been into ancient history, prophecies and the like.

 

I don't think any of that translates to the Daynes being anybody's parents.

 

Anyhow, what's with this "love Daynes, hate Targs" stuff? We know next to nothing about them. Arthur was a great guy reportedly, but so was Rhaegar, if many of the people of Westeros can be believed (take Jaime, for example, who thinks that both Arthur and Rhaegar were top notch guys). The chance is, if you knew as much of Arthur as you know of Rhaegar, you might dislike him, too. As for Ashara, she's a character without any character traits to speak of (she was hot, duh!) with unclear, allegedly tragic lifestory.

[OuttaOldtown]

 
You mean Arthur? come on, he is quite cool. 
Even Rhaegar did not have much dialogue, but you see everybody is loving him. 

Meh! So is the Smiling Knight when it's a five word quote. He does very little for me, & I know I'm in the minority. Daemon Targaryen & Oberyn Martell are more me 😈

[purple-eyes]

Meh! So is the Smiling Knight when it's a five word quote. He does very little for me, & I know I'm in the minority. Daemon Targaryen & Oberyn Martell are more me

 

Hey, Arthur spoke much more than smiling knight. 

Arthur died so early. If he lived until 42 years old as Oberyn or 49 years old as Daemon, he would do as much as stuff as them. 

[King of the Narrow Sea]

'I hate Rhaegar, Arthur Is cooler' is the rationale behind all this, I've read many theories & they all have two things in common. They're imaginative & include little to no quotes from the books, strong theories are based on the content on the pages, not personal favoritism..

 

R+L=J has no content from the pages. It's completely based on personal favoritism as the only content in the pages point to R+L=X or E+W=/=J. People just ran with those clues to make R+L=J.

 

Most of the actual "R+L=J content" that is cited actually reads better for Dany.

[OuttaOldtown]

 
R+L=J has no content from the pages. It's completely based on personal favoritism as the only content in the pages point to R+L=X or E+W=/=J. People just ran with those clues to make R+L=J.

There's many clues that link the theory, that's the point. Stick your fingers in your ears and yell 'lalala' all you want..

[King of the Narrow Sea]

There's many clues that link the theory, that's the point. Stick your fingers in your ears and yell 'lalala' all you want..

 

No there's not. There's clues that there's a Rhaegar and Lyanna child, and that Eddard and Wylla aren't Jon's parents. That does not suddenly make them R+L=J clues as that would mean that the clue must link Rhaegar and Lyanna to Jon.

 

For instance this is commonly cited as an R+L=J clue

 

 … but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"

 

It's not. There's nothing linking Rhaegar and Lyanna to Jon. At best it's an E+W=/=J clue as if Ned is talking about Jon and Robb, who are half brothers, they shouldn't need to have to grow up close as brothers as they are.

 

R+L=J is not a textually evidenced theory. It's a fan interpretation of the R+L=X clues, and the E+W=/=J clues in the books. It's not sticking "your fingers in your ears and yell lalala" to point this out. It's acknowledging that R+L=J is actually just people taking the R+L=X and E+W=/=J clues and combining them. There is no actual R+L=J clue in the books, and the R+L=X and E+W=/=J clues might be about completely different people as only the fans decided to lump them all together into R+L=J clues.

[Khione]

 

R+L=J has no content from the pages. It's completely based on personal favoritism as the only content in the pages point to R+L=X or E+W=/=J. People just ran with those clues to make R+L=J.

 

Most of the actual "R+L=J content" that is cited actually reads better for Dany.

Exactly how? The timeline doesn't work, its 'logic' doesn't work, it goes against what's stated (that is Rhaella gave birth to her on Dragonstone and there were witnesses). What are those clues that point to Daenerys, without using a whole lot of mental gymnastics? 

Where are Daenerys' wolf dreams, where is her warging ability?

 

Everything is a theory until it's confirmed. But there can be sound theories that are deduced from facts and hints.

Jon has a Stark look, is a warg  and Ned admitted to him being 'his blood' (read Stark blood), so he's definitely half-Stark. From that side of his parentage, Ned, Lyanna or Brandon are the options. Brandon doesn't work due to timeline. It's heavily hinted (even in his own thoughts) Ned's not the father. So that leaves Lyanna. Now she most likely had a child (a bed of blood aka childbed, the promises she made Ned swear while dying, the fear in her eyes before he swore to her, being isolated with a guy for a period of time). Her connection to Jon is through the winter rose crown and the blue rose in the Wall vision as well as Jon's dreams of the Winterfell crypts.

So Jon's a half-Stark, Lyanna had a baby before she died, Jon's birth dates back to the time Lyanna had her baby (his age, a small time gap between the births of Robb and Jon), Ned emerged from the civil war with a baby and his sister's bones. Put two and two together.

 

The other side of his parentage is trickier to figure out but given the textual information about the whole Rhaegar and Lyanna's affair (or kidnapping and repeated rape if that's what you believe). it's a safe bet to say who the father of Lyanna's baby was, unless it's suddenly revealed that she fooled around with more than one guy around the time of the conception. The only other guys around her at that time were Arthur and Oswell. And I don't see Rhaegar leaving any of them alone with Lyanna. I also doubt any of them, honourable and bound to oaths as they were, would want to mess with their Crown Prince's mistress behind his back, especially when he was still there. Not to mention Lyanna clearly not being that kind of girl judging by her character (her distaste over Robert whoring around, his lack of commitment).

 

It's all about deduction.

What do you think is the alternative? It has to make sense, match the timeline and work with numerous hints regarding Jon's origins. If RLJ is wrong then what's the reason behind all that secrecy about Jon's parents? If he's really Ned's, then the mystery about the mother still makes no sense. Even if he didn't want to discuss that with Catelyn, why did he insist on keeping it from Jon? Of all people, he deserved to know.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

Exactly how? The timeline doesn't work, its 'logic' doesn't work, it goes against what's stated (that is Rhaella gave birth to her on Dragonstone and there were witnesses). What are those clues that point to Daenerys, without using a whole lot of mental gymnastics? 

Where are Daenerys' wolf dreams, where is her warging ability?

 

Everything is a theory until it's confirmed. But there can be sound theories that are deduced from facts and hints.

Jon has a Stark look, is a warg  and Ned admitted to him being 'his blood' (read Stark blood), so he's definitely half-Stark. From that side of his parentage, Ned, Lyanna or Brandon are the options. Brandon doesn't work due to timeline. It's heavily hinted (even in his own thoughts) Ned's not the father. So that leaves Lyanna. Now she most likely had a child (a bed of blood aka childbed, the promises she made Ned swear while dying, the fear in her eyes before he swore to her, being isolated with a guy for a period of time). Her connection to Jon is through the winter rose crown and the blue rose in the Wall vision as well as Jon's dreams of the Winterfell crypts.

So Jon's a half-Stark, Lyanna had a baby before she died, Jon's birth dates back to the time Lyanna had her baby (his age, a small time gap between the births of Robb and Jon), Ned emerged from the civil war with a baby and his sister's bones. Put two and two together.

 

The other side of his parentage is trickier to figure out but given the textual information about the whole Rhaegar and Lyanna's affair (or kidnapping and repeated rape if that's what you believe). it's a safe bet to say who the father of Lyanna's baby was, unless it's suddenly revealed that she fooled around with more than one guy around the time of the conception. The only other guys around her at that time were Arthur and Oswell. And I don't see Rhaegar leaving any of them alone with Lyanna. I also doubt any of them, honourable and bound to oaths as they were, would want to mess with their Crown Prince's mistress behind his back, especially when he was still there. Not to mention Lyanna clearly not being that kind of girl judging by her character (her distaste over Robert whoring around, his lack of commitment).

 

It's all about deduction.

What do you think is the alternative? It has to make sense, match the timeline and work with numerous hints regarding Jon's origins. If RLJ is wrong then what's the reason behind all that secrecy about Jon's parents? If he's really Ned's, then the mystery about the mother still makes no sense. Even if he didn't want to discuss that with Catelyn, why did he insist on keeping it from Jon? Of all people, he deserved to know.

 

Your problem is accepting a timeline in the first place. The only real timeline is that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany as that's what GRRM himself said. Dany being born 9 months after the Sack is what Dany herself says happened based on what she's told. But reading about Dany's past showcases a lot of inconsistencies, and not only that, but Jon can't possibly be 8-9 months older than Dany if he's born at the TOJ and "Dany" born on Dragonstone 9 moons after Rhaella left King's Landing. Jon would need to be 5-6 months older than Dany for that to happen as Ned says he'd ended the Siege of Storm's End which needs to have gone on for months after the Sack to have lasted the year that it did. Put Dany as that baby and there's no longer any problems with the timeline, or Dany's background not adding up.

 

But that aside, my main point that a lot of the "R+L=J clues" commonly cited that "prove" R+L=J don't pop up around Jon at all, and you even went ahead and cited some of them. They consistently pop up around Dany

 

- blue rose at the Wall was a vision received by Dany, and most expect her to end up at the Wall one day, and the visions were declared to be about past, present, and future events. Dany is also far more likely to "fill the air with sweetness" as the flower does, as Jon never did that (how can Jon be the flower if he doesn't do what the flower does?)

- Rhaegar saying there must be one more head while looking at Dany, while he was trying to have another daughter

- Lyanna's "promise me" constantly pops up around discussions of Dany, not Jon

 

Then there's other stuff that point to Dany over Jon

 

- Dany seemingly has memories that link to Dorne when she should never have lived in Dorne

- Dany constantly has visions of herself as Rhaegar

- Dany is constantly referred to as being like Rhaegar and taking everybody by surprise by how much she is

- Dany is constantly trying to live up to how Rhaegar was, and is obsessed with knowing about him over Aerys

- Everybody constantly thinking about Rhaegar around her

- Dany receives a spirited young female horse with silver hair that's "as grey a the winter sea" that she instantly bonds with

- Dany is one of the most beautiful woman in the world as would be expected if two of the most beautiful people in Westoros, Rhaegar and Lyanna, had a baby rather than plain faced Jon

- Dany marries for duty like Rhaegar, but falls for Daario and Barristan concludes that it's no good, just as it was not good that Rhaegar loved Lyanna

- Dany wonders how Rhaegar could ever have done what he did for Lyanna

- Dany hatches dragons, and Rhaegar was obssessed with Summerhall, an attempt to hatch dragons

etc.

 

I mean, there's actually so much of Dany's story that is centered around Rhaegar and Lyanna, with parallels between them, and there's nothing like that at all in Jon's story. If you accept that Dany is not actually who she thinks she is the girl who was born on Dragonstone who in all likelihood died like Aerys and Rhaella's children always did, which there are basis for, then there's far more of the story that fits with Dany being Rhaegar and Lyanna's child than Jon.

 

R+L=J is really an attempt to force the R+L=X and E+W=/=J clues together to make Jon Rhaegar and Lyanna's child, when the story more naturally flows that Dany is it as it's been Dany all along who's had the Rhaegar and Lyanna connections and clues thrown into her story.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

If Jon was a Dayne instead of a dragonspawn I would be delighted! I would be extra happy if he was Arthur's son.

Don´t worry JQC... he´s the Stag-Wolf nephew of THE NED and THE MANNIS :fencing:

[shk12344]

I really hope the TV show reveal RLJ before TWoW. I want to see how the anti-RLJ crowd will struggle with that until TWoW comes out.

They will simply dismiss it as TV show and not relevant to the book discussion. BTW, tv show will be having Tower of Joy flashback, so it's 100 percent certain that R + L = J will be revealed next season.

[Lady Barbrey]

 

The Young Ned scene is him and Benjen sparring, and something about how Hodor became Hodor. It has nothing to do with the TOJ or Harrenhal as Young Ned is like 11. Ned was 18 at Harrenhal, and like 20 at the TOJ

Damn.

[TRLR]

 

Just because digital fandom revealed the likely secret of R+L=J doesn't make it any less true. Fans have predicted many things that have come true. R+L=J is just one of them. When it's revealed, I'm not even sure there'll be great schadenfreude because 90% of ASOIAF readers assume it to be the case, and speculate about Jon's destiny from there as their point of departure. The interesting stuff won't be the what, but the how... I'm hoping for some details about what happened 15-17 years before AGoT opens.

 

:agree:

 

It always annoys me when people say R+L=J can't be true because it's so obvious and GRRM won't write anything that obvious. People forget that most of R+L=J clues are in GoT, and this theory has discussed ad nauseam by the fandom. Had GRRM released each of the books within a year or two of each other, R+L=J wouldn't be as obvious to many of the readers. Plus, not all readers scour fan sites like this. Just go to sites like Goodreads and you'll see that not many people actually know about R+L=J. 

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I think that the Daynes are left-overs of the Great Empire of the Dawn that outlived the Empire and later assimilated to the life among the first Men and later Andals. I also think that the involvement of the Daynes' ancestors in the first Long Night may have helped in bringing Rhaegar and Arthur together, since Rhaegar had been into ancient history, prophecies and the like.

 

I don't think any of that translates to the Daynes being anybody's parents.

 

Anyhow, what's with this "love Daynes, hate Targs" stuff? We know next to nothing about them. Arthur was a great guy reportedly, but so was Rhaegar, if many of the people of Westeros can be believed (take Jaime, for example, who thinks that both Arthur and Rhaegar were top notch guys). The chance is, if you knew as much of Arthur as you know of Rhaegar, you might dislike him, too. As for Ashara, she's a character without any character traits to speak of (she was hot, duh!) with unclear, allegedly tragic lifestory.

 

:agree: People are just bored. If there was extensive textual evidence for Jon being a Dayne, we'd have 100+ threads going about that evidence.

 

I understand why people reject R+L=J. Although many of us Starkgaryen proponents like the idea of it, it's not a neat little romance. No matter what the details were, it led to the ultimate consequences. Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna means his father died before he took his first breath, and his mother died not long after he was born. He could never know them, and what's worse, his father's House was attainted after the Rebellion.

 

Lyanna + Arthur = Jon is a cleaner story in many respects. It's a nice thought to imagine Lyanna falling for a gallant KG who's sworn perpetual chastity. Arthur Dayne didn't "cheat on his wife," his death didn't leave a wife and two small children underprotected, and there would be neither kidnapping nor adultery to consider. 

 

On one level, what many of us feel that R+L=J is pointed to is actually as messy as a soap opera. Even in the best possible scenario (Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, and married with pure hearts and good intentions), they still were the epitome of "love is the death of duty." It's just better storytelling to raise the stakes.

 

Making Jon a Dayne doesn't raise the stakes highly enough for epic fantasy. Making him the son of a defeated prince... a son who must be hidden not only for his sake, but also for the sake of his mother's House, her memory and her honor? That reads more like epic fantasy to me.

 

Besides, Jon doesn't have to be the kid of either Arthur or Ashara to be the Sword of the Morning, as I've noted upthread. 

 

They will simply dismiss it as TV show and not relevant to the book discussion. BTW, tv show will be having Tower of Joy flashback, so it's 100 percent certain that R + L = J will be revealed next season.

 

:agree: I am holding out hope that George gets TWoW finished and it's published and released before Season 6, though. He can't have waited this long to allow those two to do the big reveal.

 

It always annoys me when people say R+L=J can't be true because it's so obvious and GRRM won't write anything that obvious. People forget that most of R+L=J clues are in GoT, and this theory has discussed ad nauseam by the fandom. Had GRRM released each of the books within a year or two of each other, R+L=J wouldn't be as obvious to many of the readers. Plus, not all readers scour fan sites like this. Just go to sites like Goodreads and you'll see that not many people actually know about R+L=J. 

 

:agree: It's all in Ned's fever dream.

 

BTW, although the show omitted the dream from s1, any book reader who started off as show-watching Unsullied worth their salt had to have figured this out by the fourth season premiere. I'd watched 3 seasons of the show before I finished AGoT. Oberyn's monologue to Tyrion about Elia, Rhaegar, and Lyanna is what made me pick the book up again. I had that conversation in my head as I read Ned's memories and the dream he had about the ToJ. The show spoiled for me that Rhaegar Targaryen was probably not a kidnapper and rapist, and then when Oberyn said that Rhaegar left Elia for another woman, I had to pick up the book. I wanted to know who this cute dude in the fancy bathrobe was, what he wanted, and why he was bringing up characters I thought we wouldn't need to know about after season 1. 

 

By the time I finished AGoT, I pretty much suspected Lyanna was Jon's mother. It's all over Ned's POV.

 

And the language of that fever dream is just beautiful. I'm a Tolkien fan because I love that kind of old-fashioned purple prose. I wouldn't be surprised if we someday learn that George wrote that passage very early in the conception of the novel. I think it was the fever dream that made me fall in love with the series. It is just masterfully written, and I wish I'd read it when my friends first told me about ASOIAF in 2002/3. The first three books are the kind of writing that makes fantasy my favorite genre.

[Khione]

@King of the Narrow Sea

You're really grasping at straws with your arguments. They're flimsy at best. Why you believe they hold more water than the many pro-RLJ arguments is beyond me. Everything you wrote is nothing but conjecture and mental leaps in logic. Are you just being contrarian for the sake of being different?

Do some people actually think there are not enough secret/fake identities in the story, that they feel the need to give the characters with unambiguous/recognised origins the same treatment?

Daenerys, the commonly known Targ, the daughter of the late king, is secretly a half-Targ,the daughter of the late prince and a bastard to boot. She was also born from a corpse. Martin has had some weird ideas and his writing is not perfect but this is taking it too far. Dany as R+L's daughter has absolutely no right to the throne then. Not only a bastard but a female bastard lol

 

Lyanna had died months before precious Daenerys was born (Jon was born around the time Lyanna died, Dany didn't). So unless Stark women are able to carry babies and give birth while being corpses, things just don't add up.
Where is it written Jon has a plain face specifically? Nowhere. He's only said to look like a Stark, which in no way means looking plain. Lyanna and Brandon looked like Starks too. And Dany being said to be 'beautiful' hence she must be Rhaegar and Lyanna's is a laughable reason to think so. Besides, beautiful parents don't have to have equally beautiful children, it's not a given. Genetics are a bitch.
Jon has the Stark look and is a warg (he's of the North), what is Stark-y about Daenerys? Nothing really. She's actually been compared to Ashara Dayne and told how she resembles her. There's absolutely nothing linking Daenerys to Lyanna or the Starks in general. Again, where are her wolf dreams and warging skills? Uncomfortable issue? Why doesn't Dany dream of the Winterfell crypts, where Lyanna lies, like Jon? Clearly something awaits Jon there, why would he be having those dreams if they meant nothing?

The Wall vision showed Dany who she will encounter when/if she goes there. Someone who's at The Wall right now, someone who's associated with a blue rose (Lyanna).
You seem to be adamant on ignoring everything in Ned's POV regarding RLJ.

 

I ask again, if you don't think Jon is Lyanna's, then which Stark is his parent? And who is the other parent? Provide a reasonable alternative that fits in with the timeline and the clues surrounding Jon. Explain the reason for secrecy (it has to make sense btw) and other issues with it. Jon couldn't have been born out of thin air. If not RL, then who? If you dismiss one theory, the onus is on you to deliver an alternative.  If his mother was of no significance, then why make such a big deal out of it and turn it into a mystery, why make it a test for D&D?

 

Some fans like to dismiss the show as fanfiction. But despite the details, it still hits the major plot points for most characters who matter. D&D got the gig by rightly guessing the identity of Jon's mother. They've given us hints regarding RL and RLJ, especially in season 5 and by the looks of it, things are going to be even clearer in season 6, possibly outright revealed. People can bet their asses that if they're going with RLJ then it's surely because that's what Martin intended.