Would you be upset of Jon Snow was a Dayne instead of a Targaryen?

[Varysfan]

Not as long as it made sense, and if he is the son if Eddard Stark and Ashara Dayne he would be a Stark still, technically.

It's been made clear honour is all that drives Eddard, that doesn't mean he cares if people think he did the honourable thing, just that he knows he did, so there's no way he is Jon's biological father

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

It's been made clear honour is all that drives Eddard, that doesn't mean he cares if people think he did the honourable thing, just that he knows he did, so there's no way he is Jon's biological father

 

This.

 

Also, the proponents of alt-R+L=J theories don't do a very good job explaining why Ned was so secretive about Jon's parentage. If Jon is Ashara Dayne's son, no one besides Cat and Jon himself would care.

 

However, if Jon is his sister's son with Rhaegar Targaryen, that explains both Ned's secrecy and his torment... because the man we meet in AGOT is tormented with his secrets and "lies."

 

It's also better storytelling than the alternatives. If Jon is the child of anyone else, it wouldn't mean that his life would be forfeit. In fact, given that the Daynes are Dornish, it's cruel of Ned to not give him the option of going to Starfall and living in a region where he won't face a bastard's shame.

 

If Jon is the son of the defeated Targaryen heir, especially if Lyanna married Rhaegar, that raises the stakes. Ned lies to protect Jon's life, and House Stark for sheltering him. Cat can't know because Ned wants to protect her just in case the worst happens. And Jon is shielded from suspicion of being the lost prince by being covered with bastardy -- no one will suspect that the honorable Ned Stark would lie about it, and the strong family resemblance only helps.

 

Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

[Consigliere]

Don't really care as long as it is well written, consistent with what has been written thus far and satisfactorily explains Ned's actions.

[Varysfan]

You, nor anyone, knows who that child is based on this quote:Truth is no one knows whether that particular vision in THotU was real or not. But one thing that has never added up for me is between Targ & Martell blood which fits the description of 'ice'? Another thing to note is the description of the woman (or lack there of). Dany makes no remark of her looking Dornish, it's assumed, and whenever the fanbase universally assumes they're ususlly proven dead wrong..

I like your thinking, Dany would automatically think it was Elia, and there's no indication it had to have actually happened that way but could still be a true representation of Rhaegar believing his child with Lyanna was the TPTWP

[Caspoi]

Varysfan@ Well, I didn't say that it made any sense. Personally I always found something off with Eddard being Jon's father from my first read but if GRRM explained it all in a satisfactory way I would not be upset.

[Chocs]

 

And... this would only matter if Jon and Arya are going to get together in this series.

 

Which they're not.  :rolleyes:

 

*cursing the publication of the contents of the Waterstones letter for the thousandth time*

 

You do realise the person is talking from the view-point of what was going to happen in the outline? Sometimes it's okay to give people the benefit of doubt.

[Colton Casados-Medve]

 

This.

 

Also, the proponents of alt-R+L=J theories don't do a very good job explaining why Ned was so secretive about Jon's parentage. If Jon is Ashara Dayne's son, no one besides Cat and Jon himself would care.

 

However, if Jon is his sister's son with Rhaegar Targaryen, that explains both Ned's secrecy and his torment... because the man we meet in AGOT is tormented with his secrets and "lies."

 

Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

 

You could make the case for Arthur Dayne + Lyanna being in love with Rhaegar acting as a middleman because of Arthur Dayne's sworn celibacy as a kingsguard. 

 

If Jon was A+L, Robert Baratheon's fury might not have been limited to Targaryens, since it would have been for love of a Dayne that Lyanna abandoned her betrothal to Robert. Ed respected the Dayne's, particularly Arthur Dayne, and might not have wanted to risk unjust punishment on their house. 

 

Alternatively Ned's promise to Lyanna might be why he never tells anyone (A+L=J assumed here). If Lyanna wanted him to keep it a secret, he'd keep it a secret. 

 

Anyways, there's way too much suspicion/mystery surrounding Arthur Dayne and his House for them to not be connected to the main story in some way, in my opinion. In Ned's dream, Lyanna pleads to Ned when he begins fighting Arthur, who wore a "sad smile." 

[Chocs]

I don't think there's any chance of Jon being anyone's son other than Lya/Rhaegar's. Too many foreshadowing and hints especially in the first book(which is said to have important clues for the endgame in a recent interview). But I wouldn't really be upset if GRRM goes there, just annoyed.

[Joan Jett]

 
And... this would only matter if Jon and Arya are going to get together in this series.
 
Which they're not.  :rolleyes:
 
*cursing the publication of the contents of the Waterstones letter for the thousandth time*

That quote from the outline matters either way. There is a clear indication that Ned is not Jon's father.

And besides, the bones of the outline still exist in the series. Instead of Tyrion, Ramsay burns Winterfell and has a deadly rivalry with Jon over (f)Arya. (Snowbowl anyone?)

[Varysfan]

This.
 
Also, the proponents of alt-R+L=J theories don't do a very good job explaining why Ned was so secretive about Jon's parentage. If Jon is Ashara Dayne's son, no one besides Cat and Jon himself would care.
 
However, if Jon is his sister's son with Rhaegar Targaryen, that explains both Ned's secrecy and his torment... because the man we meet in AGOT is tormented with his secrets and "lies."
 
It's also better storytelling than the alternatives. If Jon is the child of anyone else, it wouldn't mean that his life would be forfeit. In fact, given that the Daynes are Dornish, it's cruel of Ned to not give him the option of going to Starfall and living in a region where he won't face a bastard's shame.
 
If Jon is the son of the defeated Targaryen heir, especially if Lyanna married Rhaegar, that raises the stakes. Ned lies to protect Jon's life, and House Stark for sheltering him. Cat can't know because Ned wants to protect her just in case the worst happens. And Jon is shielded from suspicion of being the lost prince by being covered with bastardy -- no one will suspect that the honorable Ned Stark would lie about it, and the strong family resemblance only helps.
 
Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

This
And also when Robert talks of Lyanna and Rhaegar I think Eddards lack of support for killing all Targs speaks volumes! Eddard never mentions Rhaegar raping Lyanna as far as I can remember, you'd think this would be something he would think about considering his obvious love for his family and it being mentioned repeatedly by Robert

[Chocs]

That quote from the outline matters either way. There is a clear indication that Ned is not Jon's father.

And besides, the bones of the outline still exist in the series. Instead of Tyrion, Ramsay burns Winterfell and has a deadly rivalry with Jon over (f)Arya. (Snowbowl anyone?)

 

Ramsay is going down :P BoTB.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I'd be annoyed if Ned was Jon's true father simply because he should have told Catelyn, and given Jon the knowledge of his parentage before he took the black. It would make one of the most honorable characters of the series one of the most dishonorable.

 

If Ned is Lyanna's child, it is the ultimate act of love, honor, and sacrifice to take on the shame of his beloved sister, taint his own legendary honor, and claim her child as his own. It makes Ned one of the most heroic characters in the series.

 

 

It all depends upon the story that GRRM wishes to tell.

 

 

You do realise the person is talking from the view-point of what was going to happen in the outline? Sometimes it's okay to give people the benefit of doubt.

 

Noting this reply, but that poster and I are fine now. They clarified their stance and apologized for jumping to conclusions, because I was right. Not certain at what you're implying.

 

 

You could make the case for Arthur Dayne + Lyanna being in love with Rhaegar acting as a middleman because of Arthur Dayne's sworn celibacy as a kingsguard. 

 

If Jon was A+L, Robert Baratheon's fury might not have been limited to Targaryens, since it would have been for love of a Dayne that Lyanna abandoned her betrothal to Robert. Ed respected the Dayne's, particularly Arthur Dayne, and might not have wanted to risk unjust punishment on their house. 

 

Alternatively Ned's promise to Lyanna might be why he never tells anyone (A+L=J assumed here). If Lyanna wanted him to keep it a secret, he'd keep it a secret. 

 

Anyways, there's way too much suspicion/mystery surrounding Arthur Dayne and his House for them to not be connected to the main story in some way, in my opinion. In Ned's dream, Lyanna pleads to Ned when he begins fighting Arthur, who wore a "sad smile." 

 

The major problem you have in a Lyanna Stark + Arthur Dayne = Jon Snow scenario is that there's no reason for Ned to keep the secret. House Dayne wasn't attained; far from it. (See my posts above.)

 

None of the alternatives to R+L=J satisfactorily explain Ned Stark's actions from the end of the war through 299 AC, and skew him into a not-so-great character.

[Makk]

I would be a bit. There has been all this clever foreshadowing, and I am sure R + L = J was the writers original intent. It would feel like a cheap trick and change of mind to have something else.

[Ser Creighton]

Don't really care as long as it is well written, consistent with what has been written thus far and satisfactorily explains Ned's actions.

Yeah I wouldn't either as long as the story is good. Plus the funny thing is the Dyane's work just as well as Rhaegar for my own Sun and Moon theory. Pretty much the only person in the books who can do that. Also there is the interesting story of Nymeria who Martin compares Dany too. She had three husbands as well, a horse lord, a political marriage and a Dayne. Plus that great inverse with her and Dany, fire and water.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I would be a bit. There has been all this clever foreshadowing, and I am sure R + L = J was the writers original intent. It would feel like a cheap trick and change of mind to have something else.

 

I think that R+L=J is a safe bet, and will be revealed in TWoW. 

 

Really, it's a brilliant backstory, and he's to be commended for it. When GRRM wrote it in, he couldn't have anticipated social media or his books being made into the most popular TV series in the world.

[Lady Barbrey]

I have not a shred of doubt Lyanna is Jon's mother.  Not only the textual hints but the symbolism of blue roses, blue fire, promise me's, Jon definitely being a Stark in looks and nature, - everything points to it.  For me, it's his father that might be at issue.  I'm 90% sure it's Rhaegar but reserve 10% for Arthur Dayne because of the sword of the morning symbolism that surrounds Jon.

[OuttaOldtown]

I like your thinking, Dany would automatically think it was Elia, and there's no indication it had to have actually happened that way but could still be a true representation of Rhaegar believing his child with Lyanna was the TPTWP

It has always amazed me that people accept a vision as unquestionable truth despite a clear & concise warning before she entered. The moment Jorah says "Prince Aegon was Rhaegar's heir by Elia of Dorne" I suspected it was not an accurate vision. Also that Rhaegar looked up and met Dany's eyes, my thought is the woman is Lyanna, the baby is Jon & none of it ever occurred. But I know nothing..

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

You know what, ladies and gentlemen? I'm not going to prepare a contingency plan for a hypothetical "R+J =/= J" reveal. I find it very unlikely. I'm not planning, or predicting, my reactions ahead. I'll cross that bridge if we get there (which we won't). It's pointless to ask me in advance now, for I have no answer for you.

 

I also have no answer for a followup question, "and what if King's Landing is besieged by an army of horny penguins?", and many other hypothetical scenarios I deem unlikely. If that happens, we'll talk.

[Chocs]

Noting this reply, but that poster and I are fine now. They clarified their stance and apologized for jumping to conclusions, because I was right. Not certain at what you're implying.

 

Talking about assumptions but nvm. They were using the outline to prove Jon's not Ned's son. 

 

 

I have not a shred of doubt Lyanna is Jon's mother.  Not only the textual hints but the symbolism of blue roses, blue fire, promise me's, Jon definitely being a Stark in looks and nature, - everything points to it.  For me, it's his father that might be at issue.  I'm 90% sure it's Rhaegar but reserve 10% for Arthur Dayne because of the sword of the morning symbolism that surrounds Jon.

 

Sword of the morning symbolism? 

[Varysfan]

It has always amazed me that people accept a vision as unquestionable truth despite a clear & concise warning before she entered. The moment Jorah says "Prince Aegon was Rhaegar's heir by Elia of Dorne" I suspected it was not an accurate vision. Also that Rhaegar looked up and met Dany's eyes, my thought is the woman is Lyanna, the baby is Jon & none of it ever occurred. But I know nothing..

Yea the whole looking at Dany made me feel like it was almost the ghost of Rhaegar!