Would you be upset of Jon Snow was a Dayne instead of a Targaryen?

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

You know what, ladies and gentlemen? I'm not going to prepare a contingency plan for a hypothetical "R+J =/= J" reveal. I find it very unlikely. I'm not planning, or predicting, my reactions ahead. I'll cross that bridge if we get there (which we won't). It's pointless to ask me in advance now, for I have no answer for you.

 

I also have no answer for a followup question, "and what if King's Landing is besieged by an army of horny penguins?", and many other hypothetical scenarios I deem unlikely. If that happens, we'll talk.

 

:lmao: Just one more year, my friend. Either TWoW or S6 will reveal it... although if the show confirms it first, there'll be doubters until TWoW silences them. But I do expect that Martin is racing to finish TWoW after the debacle of the last season, because he'll be damned if those two reveal a plot twist he's been planning since the early 90s. 

 

 

Talking about assumptions but nvm. They were using the outline to prove Jon's not Ned's son. 

 

Yes, nvm is correct. This thread is about whether we'd be upset if Jon is a Dayne.

[OuttaOldtown]

Yea the whole looking at Dany made me feel like it was almost the ghost of Rhaegar!

Yes, the last dream/thought before his death..

[Jane Blackdread]

I would never be upset if Jon turns to be a Dayne... 

 

Although I suscribe the R+L=J theory it's not that I like it very much... but I hope that the Rhaegar and Lyanna thing was something more complex that the love thing some people of Westeros believe or the abduction thing some others believe.

 

If he was Ned and Ashara's he would be a bastard while in the R+L's there is a chance they got married before the Old Gods... and the Seven. Who knows!!! 

[Colton Casados-Medve]

 

Talking about assumptions but nvm. They were using the outline to prove Jon's not Ned's son. 

 

 

 

Sword of the morning symbolism? 

 

This thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/134981-from-death-to-dawn-jon-will-rise-and-the-sword-of-the-morning/ 

 

Also trending right now. 

[Chocs]

Yes, nvm is correct. This thread is about whether we'd be upset if Jon is a Dayne.

 

Yes, and I was replying to a post in this thread only.   :)

 

 

This thread: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/134981-from-death-to-dawn-jon-will-rise-and-the-sword-of-the-morning/ 

 

Also trending right now. 

 

Oh yes! I need to read that asap! Lots of interesting stuff there, thanks for the link! 

[Karmarni]

This.
 
Also, the proponents of alt-R+L=J theories don't do a very good job explaining why Ned was so secretive about Jon's parentage. If Jon is Ashara Dayne's son, no one besides Cat and Jon himself would care.
 
However, if Jon is his sister's son with Rhaegar Targaryen, that explains both Ned's secrecy and his torment... because the man we meet in AGOT is tormented with his secrets and "lies."
 
It's also better storytelling than the alternatives. If Jon is the child of anyone else, it wouldn't mean that his life would be forfeit. In fact, given that the Daynes are Dornish, it's cruel of Ned to not give him the option of going to Starfall and living in a region where he won't face a bastard's shame.
 
If Jon is the son of the defeated Targaryen heir, especially if Lyanna married Rhaegar, that raises the stakes. Ned lies to protect Jon's life, and House Stark for sheltering him. Cat can't know because Ned wants to protect her just in case the worst happens. And Jon is shielded from suspicion of being the lost prince by being covered with bastardy -- no one will suspect that the honorable Ned Stark would lie about it, and the strong family resemblance only helps.
 
Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

^This, yes. I wouldn't be upset but I can't see it happening. I wish to know more about the Dayne's and also wish GRRM had a Dayne character that contributed to the story *in* the story already (Edric Dayne doesn't do enough to count and Arthur died, while cousin or whatever Darkstar is a buffoon.)

[Ser Greenseer]

Personally it makes no difference to me whether Jon is a Targaryen or a Dayne, in an ideal world he would just be Ned's ordinary bastard IMO.

THIS

 

Jon doesn't need to be a Targaryen or a Dayne to be awesome, he is cool the way he is.  

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

THIS

 

Jon doesn't need to be a Targaryen or a Dayne to be awesome, he is cool the way he is.  

 

 

Meh. He's okay.

 

Seriously, I think Jon's an important player, but before he stumbles under the weight of fan expectation, he needs to actually come back to life first. Then you guys can pile up all the titles, swords, accolades and main female characters you want on his know-nothing shoulders.

 

Poor Jon! :)

[kimim]

 

The only argument I disagree with here is that two books isn't enough. I would argue it is, especially since these two books are going to be larger than the others and hopefully he'll start killing off more characters than he starts introducing, opening up POV room. I mean, for me, Ned is one of the most fleshed out characters and the most gratifying to read and he only had page-time in one book. I could see the Daynes playing a huge role, especially if Jon is a Dayne all along, and his parents are already dead. I mean, it would be no different than Rhaegar/Lyanna really, since they've been dead since before the series as well. 

 

I'm just curious what role House Dayne will play if they aren't connected to Jon. If their house motto contains spoilers its gotta be worth something right? 

Daynes have played a tiny part in the novels so far. Even the obsessed people on this forum don't know much about them other than Ashara's suicide and Arthur's death. The normal reader probably doesn't even remember that much. That means a Dayne reveal would have a minimum of emotional impact, and you don't want that with your big reveal. A Dayne parent would also force Martin to make the Daynes memorable after the reveal, force him to go into long explanations about things that happened way in the past to people we are unfamiliar with. Then he would need to work the blue roses into it all, etc. I can't STAND Rhaegar or Lyanna, but for whatever reason, Martin saw to it that most readers remember them.

 

A r+l reveal would have none of those drawbacks, and would fit perfectly into what he's already set up. Given how much he has to do in those last two novels, I really don't think he can afford the kind of complication that a Dayne reveal would create.

[JonSnow4President]

As long as GRRM satisfactorily explains a few things (ToJ events, Blue flower, Rhaegar's actions, need for secrecy, etc.), cool.  I'm not sure if that's possible, but it'd be a hell of a twist I never saw coming.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm gonna laugh forever if we find out in Season 6 of the show that Lyanna and Rhaegar are Jon's parents and during one of the interviews, D&D say "this is the question Martin asked us and we answered right!" only to have book 6 reveal a couple of months later that either Arthur or Ashara is one of the parents :lmao:

[Warrewal Halfaxe]

No

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Daynes have played a tiny part in the novels so far. Even the obsessed people on this forum don't know much about them other than Ashara's suicide and Arthur's death. The normal reader probably doesn't even remember that much. That means a Dayne reveal would have a minimum of emotional impact, and you don't want that with your big reveal. A Dayne parent would also force Martin to make the Daynes memorable after the reveal, force him to go into long explanations about things that happened way in the past to people we are unfamiliar with. Then he would need to work the blue roses into it all, etc. I can't STAND Rhaegar or Lyanna, but for whatever reason, Martin saw to it that most readers remember them.

 

A r+l reveal would have none of those drawbacks, and would fit perfectly into what he's already set up. Given how much he has to do in those last two novels, I really don't think he can afford the kind of complication that a Dayne reveal would create.

 

:agree: Add to that the fact that Darkstar went over with the readership like a lead balloon, that leaves just Allyria (Beric's would-be bride) and Edric (child lord of Starfall) as Daynes that the readers might invest in. Edric Dayne shows up on the page for a quick moment in ASOS; Allyria, not at all.

 

In contrast, Rhaegar and Lyanna have been mentioned all over the place in the books. Also, a few people in this thread have resorted to ad hominem attacks rather than respond to my question about how a Jon Dayne reveal would explain Ned Stark's actions from the end of RR until his death in 299 AC. The few explanations provided -- like "Robert would kill the Daynes if he knew Lyanna loved Arthur" -- makes no sense because Ned could just pass Jon off as his and Ashara's son.

 

But it's clear that it wasn't just important for Ned to obscure Jon's parentage, it also seemed critical that Jon remain hidden. In fact, it's so important that Jon remain hidden that Ned would rather his precious nephew bastard son take the black and be safe at the Wall than to remain unprotected. It actually brings tears to my eyes, knowing that Ned kept his sister's child safe all those years at the risk to his own life... and the last heir. After Lysa sends her letter, and Bran falls, I think Ned knows that the only way he can keep his promise to his sister is to allow Jon to go to the one place where he'll continue to be safe. Either he'll die an old man, or be killed in battle against the wildings -- both honorable fates, and fates that preserve House Stark.

 

Just because digital fandom revealed the likely secret of R+L=J doesn't make it any less true. Fans have predicted many things that have come true. R+L=J is just one of them. When it's revealed, I'm not even sure there'll be great schadenfreude because 90% of ASOIAF readers assume it to be the case, and speculate about Jon's destiny from there as their point of departure. The interesting stuff won't be the what, but the how... I'm hoping for some details about what happened 15-17 years before AGoT opens.

 

I have to say that even as new to the series as I am (less than two years as a fan), I was right about one major thing about the backstory: the world guide revealed that Rhaegar and Elia lived on Dragonstone. That was actually one of the first questions I asked on these boards after we finished the series: why didn't Rhaegar take his family to Dragonstone? Seems as if he did, but of course, Aerys probably summoned Elia and the children to court after he left, once she was well enough post-Aegon to travel.

 

So if I could pick up on some clues my first time through, I absolutely trust the people who have been reading ASOIAF since the 1990s and figured things out way back when. The narrative payoff for R+L=J being revealed will be immense.

 

I will be extremely disappointed if R+L=J isn't true.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I'm gonna laugh forever if we find out in Season 6 of the show that Lyanna and Rhaegar are Jon's parents and during one of the interviews, D&D say "this is the question Martin asked us and we answered right!" only to have book 6 reveal a couple of months later that either Arthur or Ashara is one of the parents :lmao:

 

If Martin changes his Diabolical Master Plan out of spite...

 

*tosses all five ASOIAF doorstoppers into the fireplace, strikes a match*

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

I would love it ,but I would like it more if Eddard and some fish wife . I find it interesting that people reject the idea that Lyanna could have been in love with Arthur Dayne out right . People forget as far as we know Rhaegar had platinum blonde hair and indigo eyes while Arthur Dayne has platinum hair and purple eyes , they could be brothers . If Lyanna disappeared especially after the events of the tourney at Harrenhal, everybody would come to the conclusion that Rhaegar had kidnapped her .

[J. Stargaryen]

It has always amazed me that people accept a vision as unquestionable truth despite a clear & concise warning before she entered. The moment Jorah says "Prince Aegon was Rhaegar's heir by Elia of Dorne" I suspected it was not an accurate vision. Also that Rhaegar looked up and met Dany's eyes, my thought is the woman is Lyanna, the baby is Jon & none of it ever occurred. But I know nothing..

 

GRRM confirmed in an SSM that it was Elia and Aegon in the vision with Rhaegar.

[The Wolves]

I would love it ,but I would like it more if Eddard and some fish wife . I find it interesting that people reject the idea that Lyanna could have been in love with Arthur Dayne out right . People forget as far as we know Rhaegar had platinum blonde hair and indigo eyes while Arthur Dayne has platinum hair and purple eyes , they could be brothers . If Lyanna disappeared especially after the events of the tourney at Harrenhal, everybody would come to the conclusion that Rhaegar had kidnapped her .

Where does it say that Arthur Dayne had platinum hair and purple eyes?

[hiemal]

Only because it would mean that GRRM totally doesn't understand the proper use of foreshadowing.

[matchesmcfly]

Where does it say that Arthur Dayne had platinum hair and purple eyes?

i've always been curious about this. did he look like edric or like ashara?

[Colton Casados-Medve]

Daynes have played a tiny part in the novels so far. Even the obsessed people on this forum don't know much about them other than Ashara's suicide and Arthur's death. The normal reader probably doesn't even remember that much. That means a Dayne reveal would have a minimum of emotional impact, and you don't want that with your big reveal. A Dayne parent would also force Martin to make the Daynes memorable after the reveal, force him to go into long explanations about things that happened way in the past to people we are unfamiliar with. Then he would need to work the blue roses into it all, etc. I can't STAND Rhaegar or Lyanna, but for whatever reason, Martin saw to it that most readers remember them.

 

A r+l reveal would have none of those drawbacks, and would fit perfectly into what he's already set up. Given how much he has to do in those last two novels, I really don't think he can afford the kind of complication that a Dayne reveal would create.

 

Once again I have to disagree. You can make the same argument with the Others. The only "history" we know of them is probably false, with small kernels of truth in Old Nan's tales. That means that within the next two books this entire species has to be fleshed out enough for us to buy it, which is far more than fleshing out House Dayne and its history when its already been mentioned several times with vocabulary that indicates a more magical/end-game importance. And considering Jon's parentage is probably the central mystery of the story, and also considering that it will probably be revealed in A Dream of Spring rather than The Winds of Winter, I would expect massive history dumps about House Dayne, the Long Night, The Children of the Forest, the First Men, and the Others in The Winds of Winter. We're going to have Samwell at the Citadel, studying history. We're going to have Tree Bran beaming visions to people or peering in the past as part of his training with Bloodraven. We're going to have Tyrion (possibly) studying the history of Valyria/dragons. 

 

House Dayne is clearly connected to the overall endgame of the Others and the Long Night. Its no coincidence that a red comet appears in the beginning of the series, and Dawn is supposed to be forged from a fallen star. Then the name cues: Dayne, Starfall, Sword of the Morning, etc. The fact that only a worthy Dayne can wield Dawn. 

And we've had plenty of mentions of Ser Arthur Dayne. Enough to characterize him as chivalrous, the finest warrior of the seven kingdoms (for a time), Rhaegar's best and most trusted companion. Yet enough mystery surrounds him that any reveal about the Daynes that GRRM does decide to do will be gratifying. We also have the whole mystery with Ned's infatuation with Ashara Dayne in his pre-Catelyn days. And we know that Ned feels deep remorse over having to slay Arthur Dayne. 

 

Claiming that the living members of the Daynes are nothing special isn't really an argument against this. Sure Darkstar is an asshole, but there have been plenty of asshole Targaryens throughout history.