Penny Dreadful Season 3; You Can Either Watch it or Pay to Have Your Teeth Fixed [spoilers]

[Daecon Dayne]

17 hours ago, Corvinus said:

I would say that Dracula holds more power on Earth, so he could maybe block Lucifer if he tried. In hell, things would be reversed, if Dracula tried to enter Lucifer's domain.

 

4 hours ago, Ramsay Blow said:

 I was also surprised at seeing Lucifer cower before Dracula but I do suspect it's because of it not being his domain as mentioned above. 

It seems this is the most likely case. I can't imagine how this show would manage to represent Lucifer's domain, or the demimonde, without running the risk of jumping the shark, so to speak. Personally, I hope that Lucifer is afforded a physical manifestation, or a vessel of some sort to inhabit. In any event I'd like to see the shoe on the other foot with regard to the brothers. 

I'm also desperately pining for Jekyll/Hyde to rid us of Lily. 

[Astromech]

Yeah, Lucifer has to act through intermediaries since he is in another "realm" and not flesh and blood. We saw that with the doll last season. Dracula also said Lucifer and his power is dependent on people's beliefs; once they stop believing in God, they have no need to believe in the devil. Sounds a bit like American Gods and other works takes on a gods power or even existence being dependent on its believers. I do like PD's take on Dracula and Lucifer and sibling rivalry and seeing Dracula having the upper hand, at least in this world.

[Corvinus85]

22 minutes ago, Astromech said:

Yeah, Lucifer has to act through intermediaries since he is in another "realm" and not flesh and blood. We saw that with the doll last season. Dracula also said Lucifer and his power is dependent on people's beliefs; once they stop believing in God, they have no need to believe in the devil. Sounds a bit like American Gods and other works takes on a gods power or even existence being dependent on its believers. I do like PD's take on Dracula and Lucifer and sibling rivalry and seeing Dracula having the upper hand, at least in this world.

Which is funny because any regular person who would cross paths with Dracula would immediately start believing in God, and thus in the devil, too. So if Dracula wants to be feared and/or worshiped, he would have to make room for his brother, too. 

[Cas Stark]

4 hours ago, Daecon Dayne said:

 

It seems this is the most likely case. I can't imagine how this show would manage to represent Lucifer's domain, or the demimonde, without running the risk of jumping the shark, so to speak. Personally, I hope that Lucifer is afforded a physical manifestation, or a vessel of some sort to inhabit. In any event I'd like to see the shoe on the other foot with regard to the brothers. 

I'm also desperately pining for Jekyll/Hyde to rid us of Lily. 

Yes please.  ASAP.

[Daecon Dayne]

4 hours ago, Astromech said:

Yeah, Lucifer has to act through intermediaries since he is in another "realm" and not flesh and blood. We saw that with the doll last season. Dracula also said Lucifer and his power is dependent on people's beliefs; once they stop believing in God, they have no need to believe in the devil. Sounds a bit like American Gods and other works takes on a gods power or even existence being dependent on its believers. I do like PD's take on Dracula and Lucifer and sibling rivalry and seeing Dracula having the upper hand, at least in this world.

He certainly does, for now at least. That hasn't stopped me from quietly hoping he manages to fashion for himself a permanent vessel in the physical realm though; he seems rather impotent as things are. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that he and Dracula somehow 'merge', or Dracula is subjugated by Lucifer within his own flesh. This would serve to unify the two aspect of 'spirit' and 'flesh' at least, with something entirely more formidable emerging to plague Vanessa. 

6 hours ago, Daecon Dayne said:

I'm also desperately pining for Jekyll/Hyde to rid us of Lily. 

 

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes please.  ASAP.

Lily has thoroughly rinsed Dorian of all intrigue. He's become a tertiary character in her bumbling arc; acquiescent and vacuous. Her involvement in this show should be limited to her own death. That, at least, would unhinge Frankenstein and allow for his character to breathe a little - and if Jekyll is the instigator of her death then this would set up a far more interesting arc in Frankenstein's quest for restitution against his former comrade. 

[Dr. Pepper]

They've really dropped the ball on Lily's plot.  The momentum and intrigue that was built up last season has fizzled out due to the expanding travels and timelines of the other characters.  Vanessa has managed to fall into a depression so deep that her home became filled with spiderwebs (that shit takes time) and has begun treatment, Ethan has traveled as a prisoner across the sea and most of the North American continent, Sir Malcolm has had a funeral on the African continent and is now across the ocean near Ethan, John Clare has walked across the frozen seas, even Victor has done a bit with his increasing addiction to opioids and connecting with his old buddy Jekyl.  

All Lily and Dorian have done is engage in an orgy with an improbable amount of blood (seriously, no human body has that much blood, took me straight out of the scene).  Sure, they've acquired an acolyte, but after so many months one would have expected more.  What are they waiting for?  It seems like bad timeline management from the writers.  

[Ramsay B.]

It takes time to master the art of dance!

[HexMachina]

I'm feeling very raw after that episode, it was very difficult and distressing to watch at times. In particular the tube feeding scene distressed me.

 

I enjoy Lily's arc for all of its over the top absurdity but I definitely understand everyone's problems with it. When it comes to this show I am definitely very forgiving. As Dr. Pepper says it is suffering from timing issues (apparent from Frankenstein's line: "You don't know the depths of her depravity!" You mean, ballroom dancing?) quite a lot. But I still enjoy it for what it is. As for Dorian, I actually think we will see him start to break away from Lily during the season.

This week's episode was so very good, stunning performances from Eva, Rory and Patti. I think it's remarkable really that this show can strip right down to the bare bones and be still manage to be so gripping. Everything about this episode was well done; acting; story; music (I say this every week but it was really well used this week in particular); lighting (the bat and serpent I really appreciated) camera work. Excellent.

One line I wanted to bring up was the orderly talking about the operation: "You know what they are?...Broken things!" Contrasted with Dracula in episode 1; "All the shunned and broken things..." I think that was probably intentional.

On the plot developments, I think most of this was pretty much spelled out last season in the Devil's Biography. I think it was mentioned at the time that the two brothers were rivals for Vanessa's hand. And we all more or less knew it was Dracula as the other brother (though a few guessed Dorian). I agree with the speculation above that Lucifer fears his brother because Dracula is strongest in the physical world, while Lucifer's power relies on belief in him and is stronger in the spiritual sense. Hence his use of the Witches last season, and how even at the end he was relying on Evelyn to kill Vanessa so he could claim her soul. He cannot do so himself, and so he uses his minions. Not sure if he will come back into play this season, but if he does Hecate seems the surest bet for that. Though she seems to have her own ambition of ruling the world so maybe not!

Next episode looks like it might be pretty focused on Ethan, and it will be good to delve more into that story. Iirc, Ethan's father is due to appear in episode 6, so things should come to a head soon there.

Idle speculation, but I think Renfield's significance will be informing Dracula that Vanessa remembers now, and that Dr. Seward has grown close to her. I think at some point he will be ordered to kill Seward, though whether he succeeds is another matter.

I'm still wondering where Perdita Weeks' character will fit into all of this and who will introduce her. Maybe Lyle, since he seems to know no end of significant persons.

Next week we will be slightly over halfway through  

[Astromech]

5 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

 

I'm still wondering where Perdita Weeks' character will fit into all of this and who will introduce her. Maybe Lyle, since he seems to know no end of significant persons.

Next week we will be slightly over halfway through  

I'm assuming it will be Lyle making the intros based upon the slight info we have of her character being a sort of scholar of the occult.

[denstorebog]

Though people may have a point about Lily's plot being pretty insignificant up until now, I have to say that I'm more curious to see where it is going than Ethan's American adventures or John Clare's journey of self-discovery. I mean, it seems pretty straightforward where Ethan is going - he has to embrace his nature so he can go back and fulfill his role as Vanessa's protector. And we pretty much know what's up with John Clare in terms of backstory, so I expect that his story will be more brooding and an eventual reunion with Vanessa before he joins up with the gang.

Meanwhile Lily is establishing a twisted zombie suffragette movement. You have to be at least a little bit curious.

[Cas Stark]

I'm not at all curious about her plan's for a suffragette army of zombies/immortals or whatever.  It's doomed to fail and not very interesting to me in the first place....abused woman dies, is reborn, wants to be like Anya the vengeance demon... 

[Astromech]

The issue I'm having with Lily/Dorian is that Justine is starting to remind me too much of Claudia from Interview with the Vampire. The over-the-top ridiculousness of their self-indulgence I find entertaining. I am curious as to how Victor and Jeckyll are going to confront Lily.

[HexMachina]

I really hope we see Dr Jekyll go full Mr Hyde, because I loved the brief glimpse of uncontrolled rage we got in episode three.

Going back to Vanessa and who she is, I wonder if she is supposed to be some kind of manifestation of Eve. Religion isn't my strong point but what I vaguely know fits that idea, to a certain extent. Temptation to fall from the grace of God, the idea she is ancient, and evil, etc. I have also seen the idea she is a manifestation of Lilith too,

[Astromech]

If she is a manifestation of Eve, who is her Adam? We need to count ribs now.

[Cas Stark]

2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I really hope we see Dr Jekyll go full Mr Hyde, because I loved the brief glimpse of uncontrolled rage we got in episode three.

Going back to Vanessa and who she is, I wonder if she is supposed to be some kind of manifestation of Eve. Religion isn't my strong point but what I vaguely know fits that idea, to a certain extent. Temptation to fall from the grace of God, the idea she is ancient, and evil, etc. I have also seen the idea she is a manifestation of Lilith too,

I was wondering if she was supposed to be Lilith, that would fit better than Eve.  

Yes. More Jekyll,less Lilly.  It is known.  LOL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

[HexMachina]

15 minutes ago, Astromech said:

If she is a manifestation of Eve, who is her Adam? We need to count ribs now.

 

I agree it doesn't work exactly, but if you take Vanessa as Eve and Dracula/Lucifer as the Serpent it kind of works. I guess if you tried really hard you could probably try to hammer Ethan into the position of Adam but maybe not.

Another reason I thought Eve sort of worked was Vanessa saying she was evil in this episode, with sort of fits with the idea of her tempting Adam. 

I'm not especially convinced by this idea, but it's fun to consider. I do hope we get to learn more about this because it's pretty confusing right now. She's been called Amunet, but there is more to it than that, IMO. 

Also, Dracula has a tomb somewhere ("You can see it[his name] on my tomb."). Chances that we see it this season? 

[HexMachina]

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I was wondering if she was supposed to be Lilith, that would fit better than Eve.  

Yes. More Jekyll,less Lilly.  It is known.  LOL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

Shazad Latif really does manage to look utterly crazed when he starts to flip out, it's great. I think it's in the eyes. 

Reading up on Lilith she does seem to fit quite well.

[Cas Stark]

2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Shazad Latif really does manage to look utterly crazed when he starts to flip out, it's great. I think it's in the eyes. 

Reading up on Lilith she does seem to fit quite well.

That was such inspired casting.

I think, if she is older than Amunet, she has to be Lilith or some other Babylonian/Sumerian goddess/demon.  Poor Clare, still can't get a break.  I thought for sure she was going to kill him, but presumably since she came out of the hypnosis, it must be someone else.

[The Kingmaker]

Poor Ethan  I mean, it is a wonder it took him this long to snap, but still.

 

 

[Astromech]

I enjoyed Ethan's scenes this week and his arc overall. Kaetenay and Hecate basically battling for Ethan's soul, even if it reminds me of Vanessa's struggles, is interesting. Rusk's backstory was a nice treat and now he has a gun. Ethan's father is a prick, but understandable now.

I am still a bit bored with Jeckyll and Victor. I just want to see Hyde.