What was the Biggest Cause of Robb's Demise

[Wavey Sauce]

hormones and puberty

[kimim]

Failing to keep Edmure in the loop. Edmure fights the Battle of the Fords, denying Tywin access West, which means Tywin makes it to KL and defeats Stannis.

When Stannis goes down, so does Robb.

[Maxxine]

Sure. Pretty meaningless though. Before the Fords Tywin had won every battle he had been in, the Green Fork, Harrenhal, Stone Hedge etc.

But Jaime losing at Riverrun still counts as a loss to Tywin as the Northern loss at the Green Fork was a loss to Robb. Commanders take responsibility for all their men, not just the battles they themselves participate in.

Not really. First of all he had not taken Harrenhal, Tywin was there for the war and abandoned it to first go West and then to go to Kings Landing.

And he didnt really take some decent castles in the West. He took one decent castle, Ashemark, and abandoned it. The Crag is described as more ruin than castle and was weakly garrisoned.

First of all that plan was from the TV show.

And Edmure did not screw up, her certainly was made the scape goat but he didnt screw up.

 

Not really. War is a fluid series of events. Robb had taken an advantage with taking Jaime but did not really press it. Tyrion even comments that Tywin should have had time beat Robb before Stannis marched on Kings Landing.

"Both of them." Storm's End was strong, it should have been able to hold out for half a year or more . . . time enough for his father to finish with Robb Stark."

I won't count Green Fork as a loss because he strategically took that loss to split his troops & take Riverrun. If you want to count a purposefully loss as a loss then I guess you can make it work. And yes Tywin left Harrenhal but he left someone in charge to hold this it was still under Lannister power until "weasel soup." And Edmure screwing up didn't only happen in the show. He went out to defend the stone mill after Robb told him stay at Riverrun thus ruining the plans Robb had to lure the Lannisters. And as far as Robb winning maybe that's a matter of opinion, but he definitely wasn't losing & was in a good position before he made is the stupid decisions I mentioned in the OP.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

A dick.

[7-KG]

His Starkness.Or GRRM.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I won't count Green Fork as a loss because he strategically took that loss to split his troops & take Riverrun. If you want to count a purposefully loss as a loss then I guess you can make it work.

Of course it is a loss. He lost around 5,000 men including Lord Hornwood and Lord Cerwyn as well as the heirs of Karhold and White Harbor being captured. It was a loss which would have larger ramifications later in the books involving Hornwood and Lord Karstark.

Besides, it was certainly classed as a defeat with Robbs own men.

"You've forgotten Roose Bolton. Lord Tywin defeated him on the Green Fork, but failed to pursue."

 

And yes Tywin left Harrenhal but he left someone in charge to hold this it was still under Lannister power until "weasel soup."

And it was quickly regained.

If you think that Harrnehal was a loss then Robb lost the Crag and Ashemark, so your earlier comment of him remaining unbeaten is wrong.

And Edmure screwing up didn't only happen in the show. He went out to defend the stone mill after Robb told him stay at Riverrun thus ruining the plans Robb had to lure the Lannisters.

Stone Mill is a TV show invention. It was at the Fords where the battle took place, it was in Riverruns lands as people were watching the battle from the castle.

Edmure did not screw up Robbs plans, Robb went West to meet up with Theon and the Ironborn to attack the Rock. In the original plan we are told:

"Would that it were. My brother commands in Riverrun?"

"Yes, my lady. His Grace left Ser Edmure to hold Riverrun and guard his rear."

That was the plan and Robb gave no mention to Edmure and the other Riverlords, who all agreed with his plan to attack Tywin, that this had changed. That is completely on Robb and his failure to communicate to his subordinates that there was a completely new plan.

 

Without the Ironborn Robb suddenly looks a lot more vulnerable in the West, Edmure was doing his duty and saving his King from being attacked. It is possible that Robb would have been injured and bed ridden at the Crag had Edmure not stopped Tywin.

 

Another reason why it was not Edmures fault is because it was the Tyrells who were the main difference. Robb had no plan concerning them, they would have defeated Stannis on the Blackwater with or without Tywin.

 

And lastly, in Robbs new plan that he did not bother to share with anyone, what is to stop Tywin receiving a messenger or a raven and simply turning around?

 

Poor old Edmure was scapegoated by his nephew and uncle into taking the blame becuase he was desperately needed to marry a Frey as without the Freys, in Robbs words;

"We must win back the Freys," said Robb. "With them, we still have some chance of success, however small. Without them, I see no hope. I am willing to give Lord Walder whatever he requires . . . apologies, honors, lands, gold . . . there must be something that would soothe his pride . . ."

 

 

And as far as Robb winning maybe that's a matter of opinion, but he definitely wasn't losing & was in a good position before he made is the stupid decisions I mentioned in the OP.

Well yeah, that is why I said it was a stalemate. There was no clear winner between each side

[kimim]

 

 

I won't count Green Fork as a loss because he strategically took that loss to split his troops & take Riverrun. If you want to count a purposefully loss as a loss then I guess you can make it work. And yes Tywin left Harrenhal but he left someone in charge to hold this it was still under Lannister power until "weasel soup." And Edmure screwing up didn't only happen in the show. He went out to defend the stone mill after Robb told him stay at Riverrun thus ruining the plans Robb had to lure the Lannisters. And as far as Robb winning maybe that's a matter of opinion, but he definitely wasn't losing & was in a good position before he made is the stupid decisions I mentioned in the OP.

I'm not sure if Hoster is alive or dead at this point, but he's out of action and Edmure is the lord of Riverrun. Of course he's going to deny Tywin passage through his land. If Robb had seen fit to communicate with Edmure, I'm sure Edmure would have let Tywin go. Apparently, Robb didn't do that. 

[Sword of Mutilation]

His penis aka marrying Jeyne 

And beheading Karstark .

[Maxxine]

Of course it is a loss. He lost around 5,000 men including Lord Hornwood and Lord Cerwyn as well as the heirs of Karhold and White Harbor being captured. It was a loss which would have larger ramifications later in the books involving Hornwood and Lord Karstark.

Besides, it was certainly classed as a defeat with Robbs own men.

"You've forgotten Roose Bolton. Lord Tywin defeated him on the Green Fork, but failed to pursue."

And it was quickly regained.

If you think that Harrnehal was a loss then Robb lost the Crag and Ashemark, so your earlier comment of him remaining unbeaten is wrong.

Stone Mill is a TV show invention. It was at the Fords where the battle took place, it was in Riverruns lands as people were watching the battle from the castle.

Edmure did not screw up Robbs plans, Robb went West to meet up with Theon and the Ironborn to attack the Rock. In the original plan we are told:

"Would that it were. My brother commands in Riverrun?""Yes, my lady. His Grace left Ser Edmure to hold Riverrun and guard his rear."That was the plan and Robb gave no mention to Edmure and the other Riverlords, who all agreed with his plan to attack Tywin, that this had changed. That is completely on Robb and his failure to communicate to his subordinates that there was a completely new plan. Without the Ironborn Robb suddenly looks a lot more vulnerable in the West, Edmure was doing his duty and saving his King from being attacked. It is possible that Robb would have been injured and bed ridden at the Crag had Edmure not stopped Tywin. Another reason why it was not Edmures fault is because it was the Tyrells who were the main difference. Robb had no plan concerning them, they would have defeated Stannis on the Blackwater with or without Tywin. And lastly, in Robbs new plan that he did not bother to share with anyone, what is to stop Tywin receiving a messenger or a raven and simply turning around? Poor old Edmure was scapegoated by his nephew and uncle into taking the blame becuase he was desperately needed to marry a Frey as without the Freys, in Robbs words;"We must win back the Freys," said Robb. "With them, we still have some chance of success, however small. Without them, I see no hope. I am willing to give Lord Walder whatever he requires . . . apologies, honors, lands, gold . . . there must be something that would soothe his pride . . ." 

Well yeah, that is why I said it was a stalemate. There was no clear winner between each side

Considering it was an intentional loss (or at least a calculated loss)I don't take into w-l record, but I realize that is a technicality. Had Robb really tried to win would the north still have lost? Maybe. Idk.

And idk know if Tywin regained Harrenhal quickly bc idk when Roose actually flipped. But the castles Robb won the west weren't lost until Robb died so I don't count that.

Stone Mill was in the book as well. In Catelyn's 2nd chapter in Storm of Swords Robb praises Edmure for his victory at Stone Mill in front of the court. Once they're in private he criticizes Edmure bc he was commanded "hold Riverrun and nothing more." So regardless of whether he told Edmure the plan or not he gave Edmure simple commands that Edmure did not follow, which means Edmure screwed up the plan.

[Maxxine]

So the more I think about the more I think sending Theon ranks much higher than marrying Jeyne on the "dumb decision meter." They were both stupid & led to the downfall of Robb, but the consequences of the Theon decision was much worse. If he never sends Theon, then no one believes that Bran & Rickon are dead, and Catelyn doesn't snap & release Jaime. As long as North/Riverlands holds Jaime, Robb at the very least stays alive even if he loses the war. He would've been captured at the Red Wedding instead of killed. And both side could've negotiated a peace by trading prisoners. Not sure what the complete terms would've been but that's another discussion. I don't think Tywin takes the step of killing as long as Jaime is prisoner in Riverrun

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Considering it was an intentional loss (or at least a calculated loss)I don't take into w-l record, but I realize that is a technicality. Had Robb really tried to win would the north still have lost? Maybe. Idk.

Of course it was a loss. Do you really think he intended to lose more than a quarter of his Northern army or prominent Lords? Of course not.

A loss is a loss, it may have benefited Robb just like losing at the Fords benefited Tywin but it still counts as a loss.

 

And idk know if Tywin regained Harrenhal quickly bc idk when Roose actually flipped.

Gregor retook it very quickly. Gregor defeated the Brave Companions, who Roose left to hold it(much like Tywin did).

 

But the castles Robb won the west weren't lost until Robb died so I don't count that.

Robb left no one at the Crag, he took all the Westerlings men with him. Who do you think was left by themselves in enemy territory to Lord over a castle they had zero chance of keeping? Seriously?

 

 

Stone Mill was in the book as well. In Catelyn's 2nd chapter in Storm of Swords Robb praises Edmure for his victory at Stone Mill in front of the court. Once they're in private he criticizes Edmure bc he was commanded "hold Riverrun and nothing more."

And he held Riverrun. Riverrun is not just a castle but the lands around it and Edmure held those lands.

But they were not his only commands. Edmure was ordered to guard his rear.

"Would that it were. My brother commands in Riverrun?""Yes, my lady. His Grace left Ser Edmure to hold Riverrun and guard his rear."

 

So regardless of whether he told Edmure the plan or not he gave Edmure simple commands that Edmure did not follow, which means Edmure screwed up the plan.

No, Edmure followed the plans. Robbs plan was to link up with Theon and attack Lannisport and the Rock. We know this from Theons conversation with his father when he tells him the plan.

"By now Robb is at the Golden Tooth," Theon said. "Once it falls, he'll be through the hills in a day. Lord Tywin's host is at Harrenhal, cut off from the west. The Kingslayer is a captive at Riverrun. Only Ser Stafford Lannister and the raw green levies he's been gathering remain to oppose Robb in the west. Ser Stafford will put himself between Robb's army and Lannisport, which means the city will be undefended when we descend on it by sea. If the gods are with us, even Casterly Rock itself may fall before the Lannisters so much as realize that we are upon them."

 

And we know from Riverruns Maester that:

"Yes, my lady. His Grace left Ser Edmure to hold Riverrun and guard his rear."

Which makes perfect sense, keep Tywin out while Robb and the Ironborn attempt to capture Lannispirt and possibly the Rock. That was the plan, and it is notable that not one of the Riverlords, not even the always quarrelling Bracken and Blackwood, disagreed with Edmure.  It is actually quite notable that Robb separates Edmure from everyone who agreed with him so that he and the Blackfish could tell him it was all his fault. Which anyone with even a slither of common sense could see is total bullshit as Robb had no idea about the Tyrells.

[Maxxine]

Of course it was a loss. Do you really think he intended to lose more than a quarter of his Northern army or prominent Lords? Of course not.

A loss is a loss, it may have benefited Robb just like losing at the Fords benefited Tywin but it still counts as a loss.

Gregor retook it very quickly. Gregor defeated the Brave Companions, who Roose left to hold it(much like Tywin did).Robb left no one at the Crag, he took all the Westerlings men with him. Who do you think was left by themselves in enemy territory to Lord over a castle they had zero chance of keeping? Seriously?And he held Riverrun. Riverrun is not just a castle but the lands around it and Edmure held those lands.

But they were not his only commands. Edmure was ordered to guard his rear.

"Would that it were. My brother commands in Riverrun?""Yes, my lady. His Grace left Ser Edmure to hold Riverrun and guard his rear."

 

No, Edmure followed the plans. Robbs plan was to link up with Theon and attack Lannisport and the Rock. We know this from Theons conversation with his father when he tells him the plan.

"By now Robb is at the Golden Tooth," Theon said. "Once it falls, he'll be through the hills in a day. Lord Tywin's host is at Harrenhal, cut off from the west. The Kingslayer is a captive at Riverrun. Only Ser Stafford Lannister and the raw green levies he's been gathering remain to oppose Robb in the west. Ser Stafford will put himself between Robb's army and Lannisport, which means the city will be undefended when we descend on it by sea. If the gods are with us, even Casterly Rock itself may fall before the Lannisters so much as realize that we are upon them."

 

And we know from Riverruns Maester that:

"Yes, my lady. His Grace left Ser Edmure to hold Riverrun and guard his rear."

Which makes perfect sense, keep Tywin out while Robb and the Ironborn attempt to capture Lannispirt and possibly the Rock. That was the plan, and it is notable that not one of the Riverlords, not even the always quarrelling Bracken and Blackwood, disagreed with Edmure.  It is actually quite notable that Robb separates Edmure from everyone who agreed with him so that he and the Blackfish could tell him it was all his fault. Which anyone with even a slither of common sense could see is total bullshit as Robb had no idea about the Tyrells.

Riverrun is the castle & the castle alone. The surrounding area is the Riverlands. This is the best evident by the map provided in the World Book. And there's no evidence that the castles he took in West were taken back before his death. I don't remember anything written about him not leaving anyone in the West (if there's something written that says this point me to it). Of course he wouldn't have left a Westerling in charge. He had just taken the castle from them. And he takes Edmure in private so as to not embarrass him in the court. And is it completely impossible that Robb's plans changed at some point or he only told a select few of his real plans to make sure there wasn't a leak. I don't understand why you think this was some big conspiracy to blame Edmure for something. That doesn't even make sense. And what was it Robb didn't know about the Tyrells. He knew they had declared for Renly since he sent Catelyn to treat with them. He didn't know about them teaming up w/ Tywin after Renly's death but this is irrelevant because this happens after Edmure has already broken the orders he was given thus giving Tywin the opportunity to teaming up w/ the Tyrells.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Riverrun is the castle & the castle alone.

No, Riverrun is the lands ruled from Riverrun. A patch of land outside of the castles walls is still known as Riverrun.

 

And there's no evidence that the castles he took in West were taken back before his death. I don't remember anything written about him not leaving anyone in the West (if there's something written that says this point me to it). 

As for leaving men to hold the Crag and Ashemark? Don't be ridiculous. Clearly that is a mental idea, Robb himself says so when Cat is first introduced to the Westerlings.

A chill went through her. "Send Ser Rolph away. At once."

"Where? Back to the Crag, so the Lannisters can mount his head on a spike? Jeyne loves him. He's her uncle, and a fair knight besides. I need more men like Rolph Spicer, not fewer. I am not going to banish him just because my wolf doesn't seem to like the way he smells."

He abandoned his two castles in the West,  leaving men to hold on to them is asking men to volunteer to commit suicide and entirely pointless.

 

 

And he takes Edmure in private so as to not embarrass him in the court. And is it completely impossible that Robb's plans changed at some point or he only told a select few of his real plans to make sure there wasn't a leak. I don't understand why you think this was some big conspiracy to blame Edmure for something. That doesn't even make sense.

As for blaming Edmure, it does make sense. In Robbs own words he was desperate to have the Freys back and Edmure was the only one capable of doing that. Edmure may have accepted if asked but obviously he was manipulated so he felt that he had to do it. In the same chapter Cat thinks that Robb has manipulated her into doing something she didnt want to do, this seems like a similar ploy.

"Only then came her belated remembrance. Follies done for love? He has bagged me neat as a hare in a snare. I seem to have already forgiven him. Mixed with her annoyance was a rueful admiration; the scene had been staged with the cunning worthy of a master mummer . . . or a king."

 

And what was it Robb didn't know about the Tyrells. He knew they had declared for Renly since he sent Catelyn to treat with them. He didn't know about them teaming up w/ Tywin after Renly's death but this is irrelevant because this happens after Edmure has already broken the orders he was given thus giving Tywin the opportunity to teaming up w/ the Tyrells.

 

 

I am not sure what you are talking about with the Tyrells. They had agreed to side with the Lannisters before Edmure battled Tywin. They had already left the Reach and were on  the Blackwater before Tywin joined them.

 

 

[Maxxine]

No, Riverrun is the lands ruled from Riverrun. A patch of land outside of the castles walls is still known as Riverrun.

Go look at the map in the World Book & the wiki page for Riverrun on this site. Riverrun is just the castle. Even the text of the book. Edmure doesn't go protect part of Riverrun. He goes to protect Stone Mill. Maybe Riverrun had obligation to protect these lands as Lords Paramount but they're not a part of Riverrun.

[Lion of the West]

I think that making himself king spelled his downfall. Everything else was just essentially speeding or slowing the process of his defeat.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Go look at the map in the World Book & the wiki page for Riverrun on this site. Riverrun is just the castle. Even the text of the book. Edmure doesn't go protect part of Riverrun. He goes to protect Stone Mill. Maybe Riverrun had obligation to protect these lands as Lords Paramount but they're not a part of Riverrun.

Stone Mill is not another location, it is a stone Mill and it is part of Riverrun. The fact that Cat was watching the battle from the castle should show this.

"It was hard to make out what was happening, but the screams of the horses seemed loud even at this remove, and beneath them Catelyn heard the fainter clash of steel on steel. A banner vanished suddenly as its bearer was swept under, and soon after the first dead man drifted past their walls, borne along by the current. By then the Lannisters had pulled back in confusion. She watched as they re-formed, conferred briefly, and galloped back the way they had come. The men on the walls shouted taunts after them, though they were already too far off to hear."

 

[Maxxine]

Stone Mill is not another location, it is a stone Mill and it is part of Riverrun. The fact that Cat was watching the battle from the castle should show this.

"It was hard to make out what was happening, but the screams of the horses seemed loud even at this remove, and beneath them Catelyn heard the fainter clash of steel on steel. A banner vanished suddenly as its bearer was swept under, and soon after the first dead man drifted past their walls, borne along by the current. By then the Lannisters had pulled back in confusion. She watched as they re-formed, conferred briefly, and galloped back the way they had come. The men on the walls shouted taunts after them, though they were already too far off to hear."

 

Are we really about to have this argument? You're just going to ignore every other source that directly says Riverrun is the castle & not anything else based on this one paragraph, which only says she can see Stone Mill. I can see my neighbor's house from my window too. Doesn't make it part of my house.

This is so stupid. I'm done w/ the discussion on this issue. It's not even relevant to the OP

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

 

Are we really about to have this argument? You're just going to ignore every other source that directly says Riverrun is the castle & not anything else based on this one paragraph

lol Every other source!?!

What sources, quote them.

 

When someone refers to the people of Riverrun, the people of Storms End etc. they are not referring to the people only living in the castle but the actual people in the lands ruled by that castle.  Riverrun is not just the castle but the lands directly ruled by it.

[Lord Lannister]

Letting Greatjon maneuver him into being King of the North. That pretty limited all his options politically and forced him into a position to fight until the death as none of the Iron Throne claimants were ever going to recognize an independent North, especially with the Trident.

[Ser Frasier of House Crane]

Longsword through the heart.