Jon Snow and Mance Rayder broke guest rights!

[Clegane'sPup]

But neither Mance nor Jon knows that Arya is not real!

If they had know this you would have a case, but from their perspective they are clearly breaking guest right by letting Mance pose as a guest, eating the food and then rescuing the bride. Even if the Boltons are not the true lords of Winterfell, they have reason to believe "Arya" is. And since she is married to Ramsay, he can act as host since a husband are assumed to run things. By their own standard they are breaking guest right.

We as readers know Tommens claim is fake as well, but it is still very much seen as a legitimate claim in Westeros. Ramsay, as husband to "Arya" is using a similar weak claim. But this should´t be about the claim strength, it should be about avoiding breaking a tradition.

But neither Mance nor Jon knows that Arya is not real! I agree that Mel, Mance and Jon do not know that the Arya the Bolton’s have is not Arya Stark.  Yes, Mel, Mance and Jon come up with a plan to rescue Jon’s sister.

If they had know this you would have a case, but from their perspective they are clearly breaking guest right by letting Mance pose as a guest, eating the food and then rescuing the bride. Based on what I am told about guest right I would call this an incorrect and deceptive statement. Even if the Boltons are not the true lords of Winterfell, they have reason to believe "Arya" is. No, actually the Bolton’s know that they have an impostor.  And since she is married to Ramsay, he can act as host since a husband are assumed to run things.  Yes, although Roose, the Lord of Dreadfort and Warden of the North is the man calling the shots, not Ramsey. By their own standard they are breaking guest right. This seems to be an ambiguous statement.

We as readers know Tommens claim is fake as well, Yes but it is still very much seen as a legitimate claim in Westeros Yes. Ramsay, as husband to "Arya" is using a similar weak claim Yes. But this should´t be about the claim strength this, as in whether or not Mance and Jon broke guest right? it should be about avoiding breaking a tradition. Which tradition would that be, I would like to hear you interpretation of what guest right is.

As a reader I am aware that some northmen are not happy with Roose’s new found authority and that some northmen are aware that Roose participated in the planning and death of King Robb at the RW.

Taking into account the information that I have been given by the author, is it your stance that the characters in the story are incorrect when they try to intervene?

[StarkofWinterfell]

I am a bit conflicted here. Mance clearly dies in show so does that mean that none of this matters?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I am a bit conflicted here. Mance clearly dies in show so does that mean that none of this matters?

What show?

[Clegane'sPup]

I am a bit conflicted here. Mance clearly dies in show so does that mean that none of this matters?

Hush your mouth.LOL The Mance is alive. Else I will need to visit the book throwing thread.

[StarkofWinterfell]

I am hoping he is the hooded man though. That'd be a twist

[Ser Lepus]

Wildlings don't follow the same customs as the people south of the Wall. Even if they respected "guest right", it could mean something completely different to them. Remember that Bael the Bard supposedly stole the daughter of the King of the North while being his guest and he's still considered a legendary hero.

 

[Protagoras]

 

If they had know this you would have a case, but from their perspective they are clearly breaking guest right by letting Mance pose as a guest, eating the food and then rescuing the bride. Based on what I am told about guest right I would call this an incorrect and deceptive statement. Even if the Boltons are not the true lords of Winterfell, they have reason to believe "Arya" is. No, actually the Bolton’s know that they have an impostor.  And since she is married to Ramsay, he can act as host since a husband are assumed to run things.  Yes, although Roose, the Lord of Dreadfort and Warden of the North is the man calling the shots, not Ramsey. By their own standard they are breaking guest right. This seems to be an ambiguous statement.

I mean that Jon and Mance are breaking guest right and that Jon and Mance have no reason for believing Arya is an imposter. Sorry for the misunderstanding, entirely my fault.

 

We as readers know Tommens claim is fake as well, Yes but it is still very much seen as a legitimate claim in Westeros Yes. Ramsay, as husband to "Arya" is using a similar weak claim Yes. But this should´t be about the claim strength this, as in whether or not Mance and Jon broke guest right? it should be about avoiding breaking a tradition. Which tradition would that be, I would like to hear you interpretation of what guest right is.

Certainly - I define guest right as the following:

1. It is invoked when a guest eats and drinks beneath the host's roof. It applies regardless of the circumstances involved for the visit nor if you are noble or peasant. It does not apply to prisoners but to persons ordered there, like for example Nordling lords. Said lord can always rebel if they refuse to attend. By accepting such an invitation you give an implied consent to the idea that the host is indeed the host.

2. When invoked, neither the guest can harm his host nor the host harm his guest for the length of the guest's stay. The ending of that staying needs to be directly told by either the host or the guest.

3. Harm is defined as injury, damage or problems as defined by customs and traditions in Westeros.

 

As a reader I am aware that some northmen are not happy with Roose’s new found authority and that some northmen are aware that Roose participated in the planning and death of King Robb at the RW.

Taking into account the information that I have been given by the author, is it your stance that the characters in the story are incorrect when they try to intervene?

My stance have been the same as it was many posts ago I think (I am slightly confused over all turns in the discussion, but I try to be consistant), that A - Mance and Jon broke guest right (Yes, Jon too - it does not matter if he wasn´t aware it was going to happen since you are responsible for your troops) and it doesn´t matter how strong the Bolton claim really is in this instance since guest right is such an important principle that the requirments to reach it should be set pretty low and B - Said guest right breach from Mance/Jon/Mel mean nothing since after what the Freys did with Guest right in the Red weddding all bets are off until they gets severely punished, so Mance/Jon/Mel shouldnt get punished for it (Which I think they should have been otherwise, regardless of the good act of saving Jeyne, but they dodge that bullet due to Tit-for-tat principle).

In short, the characters are not incorrect to intervene nor to break guest right, but I want people to hopefully agree with me that despite good intentions it is still a breach of guest right. I realize this isn´t true for everyone but I can´t help to see much of this discussion as Stark bias gone wild and attempts to describe this as something else which always tend to happen when the hero characters decide to break rules. In general I think that the reasons offered why this difference exist are inadequate in comparison, to say, the Targaryen situation. Yes, the situation isn´t 100% similiar but the similarities are greater than the differences. I get the feeling that people try to use "loopholes".

And yes, I am very much aware that this is just an opinion - I did an explanation already in an earlier post why i´s not a problem for a relativist like me to express those.

Also, what kind of author information are you talking about?

Anyways, I have ranted long enough about this - will most likely be my last post on the issue.

[Clegane'sPup]

 <snip>

Also, what kind of author information are you talking about?

The four books prior to the fifth one. To keep my response short and not to long & drawn out I just wanna hit some of the high spots. Probably totally out of order of sequence.

Start with the death of Lord Stark of WF, the Warden of the North, making Robb Lord of WF but not Warden of the North, and Robb being declared by his bannermen to be King in/of the North.

Theon sacking WF proclaiming himself (?) Lord of WF. The Hornwood incident. Ramsey turning on Jory, the Castellan of WF. The supposed death of Bran & Rickon under the tutelage of Reek/Ramsey.  Ramsey setting WF to torch and taking Theon hostage. Did Reek/Ramsey break guest right against Theon?

Robb breaking his word to Walder. Roose working against Robb, the Lord of WF and working with Frey & Lannister to set up the RW. Tyrion confronting Twyin about the RW and Twyin says:

Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner." When Tyrion had no reply to that, his father continued. "The price was cheap by any measure. The crown shall grant Riverrun to Ser Emmon Frey once the Blackfish yields. Lancel and Daven must marry Frey girls, Joy is to wed one of Lord Walder's natural sons when she's old enough, and Roose Bolton becomes Warden of the North and takes home Arya Stark." ASoS Tyrion VI

That is a good philosophical question.

Jaime, other characters in the book and I know that Arya is a fraud.

"Always," said Jaime, with a last glance at the girl. He wondered if there was much resemblance. Not that it mattered. The real Arya Stark was buried in some unmarked grave in Flea Bottom in all likelihood. With her brothers dead, and both parents, who would dare name this one a fraud? "Good speed," he told Steelshanks. Nage raised his peace banner, and the northmen formed a column as ragged as their fur cloaks and trotted out the castle gate. The thin girl on the grey mare looked small and forlorn in their midst. ASoS Jaime IX

As an aside, Jayne was taken away from Sansa by LF at Cersei’s whim. Has nada to do with guest right.

A person could argue that the war started with Jaime throwing Bran out the window or the letter from Lysa, or Cat taking Tyrion captive, or the beheading of Lord Stark, or fill in the blank.

Whatever crimes can be laid at the feet of Jon and Mance, breaking guest right is not one of them.  One size don’t fit all, properly, despite what I am told. If I try to fit my 21^st century education/rationale/moral code into this fictional world that Martin has created, it don’t fit.

[DeathYon]

Guest rights died at the Red Wedding.

[Little Lark]

 

I am aware that you were speaking to someone else. I wanted to add my penny's worth.

When invoked, neither the guest can harm his host nor the host harm his guest for the length of the guest's stay.

Yes, LC Snow gave Mance leave to go to WF to rescue Arya/fArya. No, LC Snow did not break guest right.  Mance and the women did not break guest right.

Mance puts it this way when he has Jon captive in his tent and talking about how he [Mance] entered WF for King Roberts feast:

As to the murders and kidnapping:  My speculation is that Ramsey was responsible for the murders. The kidnapping or rescue, depends on which point of view a person takes. Whoever wrote the pink/bastard letter to LC Snow called it stealing.

Well, technically I think the wildlings would have called it stealing too. They've been stealing women for years and it's a big part of their culture. That said, I imagine their have been some instances amongst wildlings where a guest has stolen the daughter of a host for example (and I mean aside from Bael using clever wordplay as a means to get the girl). 

Wildling women won't even respect a man that isn't able to steal them. Stealing women being their equivalent of a macho mating display, I'm not sure they'd consider it a violation of the guest right to begin with.

[Wm Portnoy]

 

I am aware that you were speaking to someone else. I wanted to add my penny's worth.

When invoked, neither the guest can harm his host nor the host harm his guest for the length of the guest's stay.

Yes, LC Snow gave Mance leave to go to WF to rescue Arya/fArya. No, LC Snow did not break guest right.  Mance and the women did not break guest right.

Mance puts it this way when he has Jon captive in his tent and talking about how he [Mance] entered WF for King Roberts feast:

As to the murders and kidnapping:  My speculation is that Ramsey was responsible for the murders. The kidnapping or rescue, depends on which point of view a person takes. Whoever wrote the pink/bastard letter to LC Snow called it stealing.

 

Jon Snow did more than give Mance leave.  He sent the man.  Just the act of letting Mance continue breathing and then letting him out of custody is treason.  Setting Mance and his spearwives like a pack of hounds on the people he has sworn to protect, commit murder under that person's roof, is breaking guest rights.

The Boltons are in control of Winterfell, they are in charge, so whatever food is brought in is under their control.  Manderly donated the food.  The women cooking the food, the servants running the kitchen, the guards on the walls are mostly Bolton men.  The Boltons repaired the castle, it is theirs now.  Abel violated guest rights through all of his efforts to get Jeyne out and the murders they committed.

[Wolf's Bane]

Very much in agreement with you.  Nice, nicely done.

Thank you

[Wolf's Bane]

Oh, I find (it looks that I am not alone in this) the situation pretty similar. Jon is after all pretty much starting up a war here.

First, Abel was indeed a guest. He was an entertainer there and followed with the Manderley group. He did no protests towards this and decided to eat the bread and salt that was served (singers and entertainers are as I recall protected as well, even if he somehow isn´t ok:ed as a part of Manderleys crew). That means that regardless of who owns the castle (more of this later) Abel did, with his actions, accept the "hospitality" of the Boltons. This is very much true for the nordling lords as well.

Second, Boltons are very much the hosts. It does not really matter that the Starks have a better claim for Winterfell. Roose is in Winterfell NOW and are at this moment holding this in his possession. Therefore, as long as status quo are holding (most likely not very long) it is Rooses caste. Mance is indeed performing an act of aggression on the Boltons.

If you disagree, well then - when can you really say a conquered castle becomes another family's? Because you don´t like the family so it can happen faster? No, just no. No one wants to lose their castle after all, yet many families have. Are the new owner then not legit for guest right? Who decides the line here? It does sound easier to assume that possession of said castle outside of a war (and on paper The North has submitted) is enough, regardless of the strength of your claim.

I for one believes that the Targaryen claim to the Iron Throne are much stronger that the Baratheon one. Yet I would never argue that Joffrey was not killed from a violation of guest right (because he clearly was) simply because "the true owner" was not there. I would also be shocked if Daenerys kills Tommen after being invited to King´s landing on the basis that the castle and the area is "hers". I agree, but that doesn´t give her the right to backstab the person inviting her.

Your posts in general drip by bias for the Starks. While I agree their claim are stronger that the Boltons due to tradition, they are not in a position at the moment to enforce any rules. Also, In order to sneak in and kidnap fArya, you might need to kill or break guest right - Jon and Melisandre should be aware of this. If I tell you to "solve the situation" with the protesters outside my house and you kill someone, I think I am very much to blame.

Also, not sure if the westeros index is a good source, but when it comes to Manderleys bringing the food:

"The guest right is a sacred law of hospitality. When a guest, be he common born or noble, eats the food and drinks the drink off a host's table beneath the host's roof, the guest right is invoked. Bread and salt are the traditional provisions."

Note that it doesn´t matter whose food it is, what matter is the table and the roof. How the noble got the food doesn´t matter (or it would be the butcher who might get the guest right instead).

Very logical.  That was the reason why I hold Jon responsible when I made the original post.

As far as who the host is and the ownership of the castle, I would like to remind all of the ones who say the Boltons are not the host, they do not have rights to Winterfell, because they didn't win it fair and square on the battlefield.  Look, battles are not fair and even, the one who wins had the advantage, that is why they won.  And who says you have to win it through the battlefield, out in the open.  Roose beat the Starks in combat.  How about the Lannisters and Casterly Rock.  The Lannister's ancestor cheated his way to owning the castle and the lands.  The Lannisters own Casterly Rock, no one disputes that.  The truth is, Roose Bolton is Warden of the North.  He took Winterfell, he had the roof and the facilities repaired.  He is the host.

[Wolf's Bane]

Boom!  This is the dagger in the heart of Jon Snow's apologists.  Yup, Jon is party to the breaking of guest rights.

Thanks.  I'm happy that you're happy.

[Wolf's Bane]

 

 

I took your suggestion and edited the title.  Thanks

[Clegane'sPup]

Jon Snow did more than give Mance leave.  He sent the man.  Just the act of letting Mance continue breathing and then letting him out of custody is treason.  Setting Mance and his spearwives like a pack of hounds on the people he has sworn to protect, commit murder under that person's roof, is breaking guest rights.

The Boltons are in control of Winterfell, they are in charge, so whatever food is brought in is under their control.  Manderly donated the food.  The women cooking the food, the servants running the kitchen, the guards on the walls are mostly Bolton men.  The Boltons repaired the castle, it is theirs now.  Abel violated guest rights through all of his efforts to get Jeyne out and the murders they committed.

 

I understand your point of view. We just disagree about what guest right is. Did Reek/Ramsey break guest right against Theon? Ramsey pretended to be someone he was not and sorta befriended Theon before putting WF to torch.

Like I said in one of the past posts I'm not denying that Mance and Jon have broken rules/laws/customs, I just don't think guest right is one of them.

Jon didn't send Mance to WF. Jon okayed Mel's plan to let Mance intercept the (I usually screw up the line) grey girl on a dying horse. Mance took it upon himself to go to WF.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

The spirit of the guest right is to protect the safety of both the guest and the host.  The benefit is that a traveler can have a place of safety for at least one night.  The host, knowing that the guest follows the custom, will be less-reluctant to turn away the traveler and he in turn receives assurance that the guest will not harm his family and steal his goods.  In that sense, Mance broke the spirit of guest rights.  They would never have allowed him through the gates had they know what he was up to.  The Boltons allowed him in, feeling secure and protected by guest rights. 

[Blackfish Tully]

My stance have been the same as it was many posts ago I think (I am slightly confused over all turns in the discussion, but I try to be consistant), that A - Mance and Jon broke guest right (Yes, Jon too - it does not matter if he wasn´t aware it was going to happen since you are responsible for your troops) 

 

By using that logic then you could say that Robb broke guest rights at the Red Wedding since all the troops who did the killing at the Red Wedding were his . There is zero chance that Jon broke guest rights , you have to be a guest to break guest rights and frankly it's hard to be a guest under somebodies roof when you are hundreds of miles away .  

[Protagoras]

By using that logic then you could say that Robb broke guest rights at the Red Wedding since all the troops who did the killing at the Red Wedding were his.

At that point, the troops who did the killing was not Robbs.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

By using that logic then you could say that Robb broke guest rights at the Red Wedding since all the troops who did the killing at the Red Wedding were his . There is zero chance that Jon broke guest rights , you have to be a guest to break guest rights and frankly it's hard to be a guest under somebodies roof when you are hundreds of miles away .  

Well, it was Jon who sent Mance on that mission.  He was lord commander and had the final say.  He gave the mission his seal of approval.  He had to know it may come down to Mance entering Winterfell under false pretense and then harming his host.