Jon Snow and Mance Rayder broke guest rights!

[Sunandspear]

Wow!  I never thought of that before.  Yes, Abel broke guest rights.  Melissandre and Jon are both responsible for making Mance steal Ramsay's wife to start with.  That's another motivation for Marsh doing what he did.  His lord commander really broke not only the laws of the night watch but guest rights as well.  If people were to find out, Jon and Melissandre would be executed.  It was a very bad thing to do. 

Seriously? Trying to save a raped and abused girl from people who got into possession of her and the castle by treachery is a very bad thing to do?

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

 

It does.  More so on Jon because he should have executed Mance instead of sending him to the Boltons.

It doesn't matter.  Do you think Queen Rhaella and Prince Viserys were happy when Robert took their castle?  No.  Did that make it any less Robert's home?  Not really.  It is the right of conquest, Westeros style, that give the Boltons rights to Winterfell.  Were the Casterly's happy about getting swindled out of the Rock?  No, but it didn't change the fact that the Lannisters are the owners of the Rock.

Women do not always get to choose in Westeros.  That's their way.  

I'm not trying to attack you and single out your post, Nevets.  I'm just addressing the excuses being made, and in my opinion, those excuses are not as strong as the argument that Jon, Mance, and Mel broke guest rights.   

first of all this is speculation. Mel tricking everyone put Jon between a rock and a hard place. Who's to say if he turned the treachery in he still isn't blamed. 

Secondly you need to do a reread as the Boltons didn't win the north through war they were granted the wardenship by Tywin for their part in the Red Wedding. Here's a quote from the book

"He demands homage and hostages... and witnesses to the wedding of Arya Stark and his bastard Ramsay Snow, by which match the Boltons mean to lay claim to Winterfell." ~ADWD chapter 29 page 411 digital copy off Google books.~

So in other words not only is you examples giving baseless but your whole argument is based off your personal feelings and not by textual evidence.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

possible loophole, Mance & the women are wildlings &  they weren't invited.

[joluoto2]

Yes, probably. Though one can argue that they never were invited. Also, while murdering is a serious breach of guest right, kidnapping is somewhat lesser.

[the Greenleif Stark]

first of all this is speculation. Mel tricking everyone put Jon between a rock and a hard place. Who's to say if he turned the treachery in he still isn't blamed. 

Secondly you need to do a reread as the Boltons didn't win the north through war they were granted the wardenship by Tywin for their part in the Red Wedding. Here's a quote from the book

"He demands homage and hostages... and witnesses to the wedding of Arya Stark and his bastard Ramsay Snow, by which match the Boltons mean to lay claim to Winterfell." ~ADWD chapter 29 page 411 digital copy off Google books.~

So in other words not only is you examples giving baseless but your whole argument is based off your personal feelings and not by textual evidence.

 

Bingo!

[Texas Hold Em]

It is my opinion that Mance Rayder broke guest rights when he entered Winterfell and stole fArya from the Boltons. 

1. Jon Snow and Mellisandre convinced Mance Rayder to infiltrate Winterfell and steal fArya Stark from her husband, Ramsay Bolton.
2. Mance lied and presented himself as a traveling entertainer (bard).
3. Mance and his women ate the food and drank the wine of their hosts, the Boltons.
4. They commit murder beneath the roof of their guests.
5. They kidnap fArya.

That's an egregious violation of guest rights to me.  Is it any wonder that the Boltons would be angry at Jon for sending Mance!  That makes both Mel and Jon party to the breaking of guest rights.

Boom!  This is the dagger in the heart of Jon Snow's apologists.  Yup, Jon is party to the breaking of guest rights.

[Maxxine]

This brings up some interesting questions about guest rights.

1) Does it apply when the host are not the owners of the locations and are only there due to the treachery they committed?

2) Does it apply when a person genuinely needs rescuing? Even though Jeyne Poole is not Arya I don't think anyone would argue that she needs to be rescued from Ramsay?

I don't think Mance not being invited matters too much. If I remember correctly that when a lord is invited he generally brings a large entourage. The entourage are not actually invited, but accepted just the same. It seems once they are accepted into Winterfell by the Boltons as part of Manderly's entourage, guest right applies. It would be different if they sneaked into Winterfell.

[Celtic Cross]

Is there actually text in the book that says the wildlings ate the food and drank the drink of the Boltons?

[Bloodmane]

Mance and his washerwomen were not guests, but entertainers, service providers. Executing or maltreating a singer or a prostitute does not seem to be considered breaking of the guest right. Crimes commited by these entertainers against their patrons probably have nothing to do with the guest right, they are griveous cases of the scum sinning against their betters, but nothing more..

[Dorian Martell]

Oh, we know the Freys broke guest rights during the red wedding.  They attacked Manderly in Winterfell, sure.  Ofcourse, Manderly killed their kin.  Nevertheless, that changes nothing.  Jon Snow and Mance are both guilty of breaking guest rights. 

Who said it changes anything? That was just you. I was pointing out that the guest right is broken more than just the one big time 

[Megaera]

Kidnapping does still mean taking someone against their will, right?

[CJ McLannister]

They commit murder beneath the roof of their guests

They were just trying to expose the Northmen to the wonders of Dothraki wedding traditions.  It was a cultural demonstration.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Wow, I haven't seen a thread this bad in a long time.

[Light a wight tonight]

It is my opinion that Mance Rayder broke guest rights when he entered Winterfell and stole fArya from the Boltons. 

1. Jon Snow and Mellisandre convinced Mance Rayder to infiltrate Winterfell and steal fArya Stark from her husband, Ramsay Bolton.
2. Mance lied and presented himself as a traveling entertainer (bard).
3. Mance and his women ate the food and drank the wine of their hosts, the Boltons.
4. They commit murder beneath the roof of their guests.
5. They kidnap fArya.

That's an egregious violation of guest rights to me.  Is it any wonder that the Boltons would be angry at Jon for sending Mance!  That makes both Mel and Jon party to the breaking of guest rights.

Mance and the washerwomen were in fact there on business. Mance earned his food and shelter through minstrelsy and the spearwives with sex. Quid pro quo. 

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

So in other words not only is you examples giving baseless but your whole argument is based off your personal feelings and not by textual evidence.

 

This is the truest and most correct assessment that can be made. This thought goes through my mind when reading 90% of posts on here. 

 

There are things that we can not know for any certainty until all evidence, text, is presented. That's not now, and who knows when it will be so. Some things may not be made apparently clear even then. 

 

Its great for interested and intelligent fans to hypothesize, but it really takes a turn south when personal opinions are stated argumentatively as bonafide facts. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

Manderly knew that Bran and Rickon were alive and in his mind and I suspect others there as well, Winterfell is not the Boltons property and certainly not the incest bastards of Cersei or she herself's to give away.

[Light a wight tonight]

Oh, we know the Freys broke guest rights during the red wedding.  They attacked Manderly in Winterfell, sure.  Ofcourse, Manderly killed their kin.  Nevertheless, that changes nothing.  Jon Snow and Mance are both guilty of breaking guest rights. 

All the Freys knew is that their kin were missing. They attacked Manderly when he spoke disparagingly of the recently deceased Little Walder and the Freys generally. Separate issues.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

Manderly knew that Bran and Rickon were alive and in his mind and I suspect others there as well, Winterfell is not the Boltons property and certainly not the incest bastards of Cersei or she herself's to give away.

its the best worst kept secret in the series. Second only to cercei's children.

[A Ghost of Someone]

its the best worst kept secret in the series. Second only to cercei's children.

TWOW will prove me right or wrong but I think just about every Northern Lord in Winterfell knows the boys are alive but Manderly and Glover kept Rickon's location secret for obvious reasons. That is why Davos was sent to smuggle him back to Westeros. I do not think the Skagosi are as much if any threat to Rickon. In fact, I think they are protecting him and will send men with him to fight for him. It is the Boltons, Freys and Twin that Manderly was protecting him from.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

TWOW will prove me right or wrong but I think just about every Northern Lord in Winterfell knows the boys are alive but Manderly and Glover kept Rickon's location secret for obvious reasons. That is why Davos was sent to smuggle him back to Westeros. I do not think the Skagosi are as much if any threat to Rickon. In fact, I think they are protecting him and will send men with him to fight for him. It is the Boltons, Freys and Twin that Manderly was protecting him from.

that's what I was saying everyone knows. Maybe" best worst kept secret" isn't an idiom as well known as I thought. 

Or maybe I jus butchered it as I haven't used it in a long while.