The Glad King Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 HI everyone, long time lurker, first time posting. I understand that the r + l = j theory is now essentially confirmed as fact from this fanbase (along with myself), but I haven't yet seen anybody mention this interesting piece of evidence that I found: the original outline for the series (which was intended to be a trilogy at the time). From reading it, it is quite visible that the final product deviated considerably from the outline (for example, the outline shows the Lannister as the oyal family, and Jaime becomes king by killing all those ahead of him in the line of succession, framing Tyrion for it). Another rather interesting deviation is that Tyrion ends up sacking and burning Winterfell, forcing Catelyn to escape with Arya and Bran (who appear to be the only Stark children in Winterfell). They then up fleeing to the wall, where Jon, now Lord Commander, has to tell them to fuck off because of his vows (he gave up his family, and can't interfere with the conflicts of the realm). After that, in typical Martin-esque fashion, Jon and Arya end up falling in love (wait, what??) and GRRM says that "Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book." I mean, what else could he possibly be referring to there? It should also be noted that the first 12 chapters of AGOT were written along with the outline, meaning that Jon's parentage isn't really something he could've modified, most of the evidence being in AGOT. If that doesn't completely confirm the theory, I don't know what else can. For anybody interested in reading the outline, this is the link : http://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/05/george-rr-martin-original-game-of-thrones-pitch/. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butterfreak Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Rhaegar + Jon = Lyanna? There's a twist. I don't see how "we'll find out Jon's parentage" confirms R+L=J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterfellsedai Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Hi and welcome. Yeah, there are so many interesting changes that were made from his original outline. So glad that he went well beyond a trilogy! Again, welcome and have fun here as much as you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 it is Rhaegar + Joanna = lancel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Glad King Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 Thanks for bringing the mistake in the title to my attention. I have just fixed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Glad King Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 it is Rhaegar + Joanna = lancel! Yes, you are correct. The reason for him becoming a religious nut is his targaryen madness from his ancestry, which has become active from his traumatic war experience. You see, it's my first post and I'm already getting the hang of tinfoil theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Greenhood Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Fanfic time.Bran: Sup Jon, I was just on the other side of the Wall and I came across a heartree, sat down, had a seizure and found out that we are not brothers. Strange right?Jon: Ran towards the king's tower showed passed the guards opened the door and found Arya crying by the fire. Hey, guess what? i got a fever and the only presciption is my cousin. Arya stared at him hopefully. What do you mean. She asked. We are not Siblings. He answered. So let's Fuck!Edit: I love the original outline, it's so much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuzzyJAM Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 I don't see how "we'll find out Jon's parentage" confirms R+L=J.What it tells us is that Arya and Jon aren't actually siblings. Which means Jon is half Stark but not Ned's. Which means he's the child of one of Ned's siblings. Which leaves us with...!! Well, there are always Brandon and Benjen theories, or perhaps Lyanna and Howland... Or timetravel! Or...!Let's be honest here though - anyone who doesn't know Jon's parentage by now is kidding themselves. Only possible other explanation is George trolling everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Glad King Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 Fanfic time.Bran: Sup Jon, I was just on the other side of the Wall and I came across a heartree, sat down, had a seizure and found out that we are not brothers. Strange right?Jon: Ran towards the king's tower showed passed the guards opened the door and found Arya crying by the fire. Hey, guess what? i got a fever and the only presciption is my cousin. Arya stared at him hopefully. What do you mean. She asked. We are not Siblings. He answered. So let's Fuck!Edit: I love the original outline, it's so much better.He gave her a long, passionate stare. "Remember the sword fighting lesson I gave you when I gave you needle?" he asked. That was when father and Robb were alive. When I saw you as nothing more than a brother. "Yes" she replied. "Stick em' with the pointy end." Jon then gave her what appeared to be a playful grin. It reminded her of the boy he used to be when they were together at Winterfell, when he would always smile when they were together. However, she found that the melancholy temperament that he had adopted was queerly arousing. He was a boy before he took the black. He is now a man. "Well..." he teased. "Would you like to be my sparring partner?" She felt her stomach start to flutter. She desperately wanted to run her fingers through his thick, black mane and let him fill her loins with his seed. She remembered the time she slipped inside Nymeria's skin, and the insatiable arousal she had felt towards the biggest and fiercest wolf of the other pack. She wanted him to take her like the wolf had taken Nymeria. However, she couldn't bring herself to do it. I may know that Jon is not my brother, but it still feels wrong. Before she had time to contemplate any longer, she felt his mouth close in on her's. He then placed his burned hand on her cheek, and caressed her gently. Although the hand was rough and callused, his touch still had a certain softness to it. In this moment, she did not see him as the stern and commanding lord he was, but rather as a tender and passionate lover. She was now seeing some warmth underneath his stark cold appearance. It figures he has warmth to him, she though. After all, he is as much dragon as he is wolf. Her desire was now consuming her. All that mattered now was having him inside of her. "Take me!" she cried out in between her moans. Dutifully, he obeyed, and slowly undid her corset before climbing on top of her. Okay, I think that's enough lol. About the outline, I think the new one was better until Feast. Now it's just filler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Señor de la Tormenta Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 uhm, that site you quote sounds intersting. I might give it a try Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Glad King Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 uhm, that site you quote sounds intersting. I might give it a tryYeah you should. The one problem though is that the outline is shown with attached photos, and the photographed was either laminated or behind glass, since there is a lot of glaire. Some words are thus hard to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 He gave her a long, passionate stare. "Remember the sword fighting lesson I gave you when I gave you needle?" he asked. That was when father and Robb were alive. When I saw you as nothing more than a brother. "Yes" she replied. "Stick em' with the pointy end." Jon then gave her what appeared to be a playful grin. It reminded her of the boy he used to be when they were together at Winterfell, when he would always smile when they were together. However, she found that the melancholy temperament that he had adopted was queerly arousing. He was a boy before he took the black. He is now a man. "Well..." he teased. "Would you like to be my sparring partner?" She felt her stomach start to flutter. She desperately wanted to run her fingers through his thick, black mane and let him fill her loins with his seed. She remembered the time she slipped inside Nymeria's skin, and the insatiable arousal she had felt towards the biggest and fiercest wolf of the other pack. She wanted him to take her like the wolf had taken Nymeria. However, she couldn't bring herself to do it. I may know that Jon is not my brother, but it still feels wrong. Before she had time to contemplate any longer, she felt his mouth close in on her's. He then placed his burned hand on her cheek, and caressed her gently. Although the hand was rough and callused, his touch still had a certain softness to it. In this moment, she did not see him as the stern and commanding lord he was, but rather as a tender and passionate lover. She was now seeing some warmth underneath his stark cold appearance. It figures he has warmth to him, she though. After all, he is as much dragon as he is wolf. Her desire was now consuming her. All that mattered now was having him inside of her. "Take me!" she cried out in between her moans. Dutifully, he obeyed, and slowly undid her corset before climbing on top of her. Okay, I think that's enough lol. About the outline, I think the new one was better until Feast. Now it's just filler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan Jett Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Honestly.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Yeah you should. The one problem though is that the outline is shown with attached photos, and the photographed was either laminated or behind glass, since there is a lot of glaire. Some words are thus hard to read.You'll find a full transcript [less the redacted bit] in the OP of every Heresy thread over on the Dance with Dragons page.As others have pointed out above the reference to Jon's parentage only confirms that Lord Eddard is not his father, and is interesting that it only comes up in the context of Jon getting inside Arya's knickers rather than anything more ambitious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Glad King Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 You'll find a full transcript [less the redacted bit] in the OP of every Heresy thread over on the Dance with Dragons page.As others have pointed out above the reference to Jon's parentage only confirms that Lord Eddard is not his father, and is interesting that it only comes up in the context of Jon getting inside Arya's knickers rather than anything more ambitious. I see the point you are making. I haven't been on the forum that much before, so I wasn't sure to what depth it got discussed. I guess that it's not perfect evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ravenstark Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 It confirms that Jon is not Ned child, if that is what really it means, not that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. And again, if you read the original outlines, you discover that Jon's parentage is just a curiosity, and only serves to get him into Arya's bed, meanwhile Daenerys was the one meant to the throne, fighting the Others and all.In other words, even if in the original outline we know that we discover Jon's true parentage, nothing infers it is Rhaegar or anything else, so it is not a "confirmation" per se.If it does, in fact, means he is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna it lost its meaning completely since Jon and Arya are not a couple anymore, as per original outline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 There is a shrewd suspicion that Sansa might now substitute for Arya, but that remains to be seen. Either way there's no doubt that Danaerys the Dragonlord is the Targaryen heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Glad King Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 It confirms that Jon is not Ned child, if that is what really it means, not that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. And again, if you read the original outlines, you discover that Jon's parentage is just a curiosity, and only serves to get him into Arya's bed, meanwhile Daenerys was the one meant to the throne, fighting the Others and all. In other words, even if in the original outline we know that we discover Jon's true parentage, nothing infers it is Rhaegar or anything else, so it is not a "confirmation" per se.If it does, in fact, means he is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna it lost its meaning completely since Jon and Arya are not a couple anymore, as per original outline.I get what you mean, but I the that the wording that he used indicates that there's more to it. He says that "The secret of Jon's parentage will finally be revealed." It seems to imply that it will be a pretty big discovery. Idk though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevasTra82 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 It confirms that Jon is not Ned child, if that is what really it means, not that Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. And again, if you read the original outlines, you discover that Jon's parentage is just a curiosity, and only serves to get him into Arya's bed, meanwhile Daenerys was the one meant to the throne, fighting the Others and all. In other words, even if in the original outline we know that we discover Jon's true parentage, nothing infers it is Rhaegar or anything else, so it is not a "confirmation" per se.If it does, in fact, means he is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna it lost its meaning completely since Jon and Arya are not a couple anymore, as per original outline.GRRM could still technically go that route (Jon + Arya) if he wanted to He's definately kept enough in limbo to do so. I don't believe he will go the romantic route with them going forward, but I do think Arya/Jon have some sort of future that intertwine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Greenhood Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 GRRM could still technically go that route (Jon + Arya) if he wanted to He's definately kept enough in limbo to do so. I don't believe he will go the romantic route with them going forward, but I do think Arya/Jon have some sort of future that intertwine.I hope not. Jesus Jon and an apathetic Arya do not go well together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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