Waves of Night and Moon Blood: Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire podcast, episode 3

[Lady Dyanna]

9 hours ago, LmL said:

Oh boy I've ripped the scab off of this one....

I have no idea what the right pronunciation is but Roy Dotrice says Damphair and that's stuck in my head. I know he says Brienne and Petyr wrong so he might be wrong about Damphair too. 

Has George ever pronounced his name?

And how about some applause for my drowned prophet voice? Thought I nailed that. 

Just an fyi.  I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Martin actually wanted it to be Damp-hair and that so many people missed that point that he regretted not putting in the hyphen. Now if only I could remember where I saw that... No worries, though. I never picked up on it until after I read the article. 

I haven't gotten around to listening to this latest podcast, but hope to do so soon. I will say that I really enjoyed the second one.  It seemed like you were much more relaxed and let your personality show a bit more, which was nice.  Otherwise things get too dull. 

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Just an fyi.  I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Martin actually wanted it to be Damp-hair and that so many people missed that point that he regretted not putting in the hyphen. Now if only I could remember where I saw that... No worries, though. I never picked up on it until after I read the article. 

I haven't gotten around to listening to this latest podcast, but hope to do so soon. I will say that I really enjoyed the second one.  It seemed like you were much more relaxed and let your personality show a bit more, which was nice.  Otherwise things get too dull. 

Thanks Lady Dyanna, it has gotten easier each time I've recorded. Then I went on camera of the first time when I guested on History of Westeros, and similarly, I'm sure I will do better next time (although I did ok this time too, so they tell me).  I have been trying to let some personality through and not stop myself from making jokes (which I do naturally) so it doesn't get too boring. You got the idea all right. Glad to hear you think I'm making progress, see what you think of this newest one.

It would be nice to get the SSM on the Damp-hair so we can be phair to his intent . 

[Lady Dyanna]

15 minutes ago, LmL said:

Thanks Lady Dyanna, it has gotten easier each time I've recorded. Then I went on camera of the first time when I guested on History of Westeros, and similarly, I'm sure I will do better next time (although I did ok this time too, so they tell me).  I have been trying to let some personality through and not stop myself from making jokes (which I do naturally) so it doesn't get too boring. You got the idea all right. Glad to hear you think I'm making progress, see what you think of this newest one.

It would be nice to get the SSM on the Damp-hair so we can be phair to his intent . 

I found it.  The question gets asked at about 3 minutes 55 seconds.

 

GRRM Video

 

[LmL]

22 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I found it.  The question gets asked at about 3 minutes 55 seconds.

 

GRRM Video

 

Ah ha. Thank you. Now this issue can settle down to the bottom of the ocean and rest in peace in he Drowned God's watery halls. 

I will happily clarify this next episode and set it to rest! 

In fact, this might even deserve its own thread. This is important stuff. 

Damp-hair. DAMP-hair. DRAGON-glass.

It's all in the name. 

[sweetsunray]

8 hours ago, LmL said:

Yeah I thought about you when I wrote that part. The Eyrie scene is an ice version of this... I re-read the snow castle chapter the other day and it is LOADED. Sansa as the Ice Queen, really hard.

Really liked your red stallion essay, terrific stuff. Looking forward to the next one.

Like I siad, I'll have to look for more instances of this pattern.

The parallel might be Jon Snow redeeming Lyanna in some way. Perhaps just her Stark lineage. 

Also, "three heads has the dragon" dictates that there could be as many as three children of AA, and perhaps they did different things. I mean... on eperson can't do EVERY frickin thing. One person has to become the Grey King, another Durran Godsgrief, etc. 

Depends on what you mean about redemption... Jamie and Theon might apply.

I'm working on extensive Sansa essays within the Bear-Maiden mythology at the moment. It's going slow thoug, because there are many themes I had to pull apart.

It's funny, how often I see a paragraph that first makes me think of your astronomical essays, and then only later I realize how they can relate as a specific foreshadowing of the character's arc. The ants mentioning of that KL scene from the rood stood out, but only now I think it might actually be a foreshadowing scene just as the ants at the Gates of the Moon scene foreshadows the avalanche event. Except in this case it would be the foreshadowing of the Vale mountain clans attack, with the Burned Men leading.

I'm not yet sure about Theon actually having a redemption arc. It seems set up that way bu the end of aDwD, but George might be toying with us there. Theon's twisted split identity arc could be the groundwork for a type of Gollum-Smeagol variation. Perhaps his Reek may rear its head up again, and may actually be crucial for the end-game. As in - he does something selfish, which tuns out to have a positive butterfly effect. The Gollum-Smeagol character is perhaps Tolkien's part of his ring epic that is a trope-turnaround that is exactly right up George's sleeve. Tad Williams did it too with his Cadrach character in Memory, Sorrow and Thorn fantasy epic.

And Jaime - he seemed to start on a redemption arc when he saved Brienne, but imo he's not on one yet. He let another do the searching, and he basically does the pacification work for Cersei, Freys and Lannisters. And he has no regret yet for his act with Bran. And his doom-dream suggest that Jaime is on a clock and time is running out.

[Evolett]

Getting back to the Hound as an AA archetype: his arc is quite fascinating because it reveals the progressive transformation of a tormented soul, bitter soul who serves a bunch of immoral unscrupulous masters to a man who throws off the shackles of obedience and duty and begins to act within his own moral principles. This culminates in the ‘death’ of his original persona and opportunity to restore his tormented soul on the Quiet Isle. As such, the ‘loss’ of his distinctive helmet and trademark and his role as a gravedigger represent a departure and burial of his old self and the final step towards attaining peace for his tormented soul – I like to think of the gravedigger as a symbol of ‘resting in peace’. Rescuing Sansa before anyone else even notices her absence, preserving her by intervening before she can carry out her impulse to push Joffery off the wall are initial examples of this process. But we see this even earlier in the story, when he rescues Loras from the Mountains wrath. As his disaffection grows, he finally becomes a traitor to king and crown by refusing to continue engaging in battle and finally deserting altogether. This is in stark contrast to the unquestioning obedience he demonstrates at the beginning of the narrative, where he feels justified in fulfilling his duty by hunting down and killing the butcher’s boy Micah.

While reading another thread, I came across this very insightful comment by @Seams. Amongst the things he points out in relation to the OP is this scene:

 

Quote

Weese was sprawled across the cobbles, his throat a red ruin, eyes gaping sightlessly up at a bank of grey cloud. His ugly spotted dog stood on his chest, lapping at the blood pulsing from his neck, and every so often ripping a mouthful of flesh out of the dead man’s face. Finally, someone brought a crossbow and shot the spotted dog dead while she was worrying at one of Weese’s ears.

Quote

Chiswyck had been easy, anyone could push a man off the wallwalk, but Weese had raised that ugly spotted dog from a pup, and only some dark magic could have turned the animal against him. Yoren found Jaqen in a black cell, the same as Rorge and Biter, she remembered. Jaqen did something horrible and Yoren knew, that’s why he kept him in chains.

 

In addition to Seams' observations, I realised that it’s also mirrors the theme of a loyal dog turning on its master. The very dog Weese raises from a pup turns on him and kills him. What’s more, the dog eats his master’s face, which is significant in itself because it is Jaqen, a FM, who somehow turns the dog against its master, while Arya herself eventually embarks on a career to change her face. George emphasises this by having Arya recall Rorge and Biter, beasts in human skin, both of whom cannibalise their victims. The Hound’s helm later ends up in Rorge’s possession. He brutalizes his victims, especially women and in a parallel to Weese’s dog, actually eats Briennes face. A similar scene occurs in Winterfell, where the first murder victim ‘falls’ off the battlements and has his face eaten by Grey Jeyne, one of Ramsay’s girls. Very intriguing is the spotted dog, which brings to mind the CotF with their dappled skins. 

 

I have not had time to analyse all this but it provides insights into the role of the FM who unmask the dog’s master turn the dog on him in the process.

 

Returning to the origin of the Hound’s bitterness and fear of fire, we recall the story the fate he suffered at the hands of his brother Gregor. Gregor himself can be described as a ‘beast in human skin’ and I personally believe that all those described as such are indeed beasts in human skin, possessed by a beast soul. Actually, I think Gregor actually did the Hound a favour by taking away the toy knight and pushing and pressing his face into the fire. First note – it’s his face that gets burned – mirroring the obliteration of the face shown above. Secondly, in my opinion, the toy knight (and other toys such as Sweetrobin’s ragdoll) really represent spiritual entities bound to the owner of the toy and these ‘shadows’ are the beasts that hold sway over humans they are bound to (I’ve been working on this, just haven’t had time to publish anything yet).

Notice that both Sansa and Arya destroy such toys – Sansa destroys Sweetrobin’s ragdoll and I believe the ‘giant’ she really destroys is the spirt attached to Sweetrobin. Of course, I don’t rule out other interpretations but this is one important implication of her action and of the GoHH dream. Remember the GoHH can detect skinchangers and probably other entities bound to a person. Read Arya’s destruction of the toy knight belonging to the girl who insisted on following her around. It’s subtext meaning is very illuminating in this context. In any case, we can infer that by taking away the toy knight, Gregor literally denies the Hound this malevolent guiding entity. By burning him as well, Gregor partially severs the bonds binding an incorporeal entity to the Hound and paves the way for the Hound’s redemption arc. That the Hound wears that distinctive helm indicates that he was still attached in some way, a tentative attachment, which we can visualize as a spirit struggling to remain connected after the fiery experience. This is the soul that torments Sandor. Finally losing his helm entirely completes the detachment process. Unfortunately, the helm is picked up by Rorge and later passes on to Lem, so its odyssey through the bodies of men isn’t over yet.

I’ll stop here – this is getting rather long. I look forward to your thoughts on this.

 

PS. @sweetsunray - the guy who falls from WF walls happens to be a Ryswell man-at-arms and a groom - so this extends to your examination of horses. 

[Evolett]

58 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I'm not yet sure about Theon actually having a redemption arc. It seems set up that way bu the end of aDwD, but George might be toying with us there. Theon's twisted split identity arc could be the groundwork for a type of Gollum-Smeagol variation. Perhaps his Reek may rear its head up again, and may actually be crucial for the end-game. As in - he does something selfish, which tuns out to have a positive butterfly effect. The Gollum-Smeagol character is perhaps Tolkien's part of his ring epic that is a trope-turnaround that is exactly right up George's sleeve. Tad Williams did it too with his Cadrach character in Memory, Sorrow and Thorn fantasy epic.

 

 

I do think Theon is on a 'bitter-sweet' redemption arc and have the feeling the key to this is remembering his real name. Bran aids him by speaking through the weirwood, calling his name. I have the feeling that this communication through the weirwood also granted Theon some power of foresight, thinly veiled in the WoW sample chapter where it's often mentioned that he 'knows' things. Both Bran and Theon are 'Princes of Winterfell', both are also 'Ghosts in Winterfell'. One could say Bran was a ghost in Winterfell while hiding in the crypts, while roaming the grounds in his wolf form and again, by inhabiting the Winterfell Weirwood, which he can access at anytime. As such, we could even say there's still a Stark in Winterfell, albeit the 'ghost' of a Stark. 

The issue of remembering one's name is important to the creation or existence of Others. Baby boys given to the Others are handed over unnamed - remember wildlings only name a child after two years? My studies on the theme of naming show that names are linked to the identity of a human. Ancient Egyptians even defined a 'name-spirt' part of the soul which incorporates the identiy of  its owner. Knowing a persons real name gave power over that person. The Egyptians did everything to conserve and protect their names. In the context of the story, handing over an unnamed child to the Others implies giving the Others a child with no identity. The soul is a clean slate which can be formed according to their needs. Forcing Theon to forget his real name and imposing a new one on him via torture is another example of eradicating one identity to replace it with another. Also highly relevant is Theon's demotion to the status of a dog. Interestingly, the Egyptian name soul is called the ren - bells ringing anyone? Should remind us of Renly, who 'rises from the dead'. 

So while I do not think that Bran will forgive Theon's sins, it seems likely he's found a way to make use of Theon. We see that Stannis keeps Theon around rather than sacrifice him straight off  because Theon is useful to him - he can provide information on the Boltons and their allies. Likewise, Bran can use Theon as a tool. There's a quote somewhere illustrating this concept - can't think of it at the moment - something about spies being more useful than corpses (could have been the issue of Mormont's escape from justice).

Remembering one's name is a running side theme - Dany, Bran and Theon are all told to remember who they are - it's all part of retaining a grip on one's given identity. How Theon may be useful? I can only speculate but that's my take on his future role. 

 

[sweetsunray]

@Evolett: yeah, him intervening on Loras' behalf at the tourney is major. Especially because he's rewarded for it positively: he gets the prize money AND the love of the crowd for it. And the tourneys are foreshadowing scenes, so that one definitely I would rank as Sandor standing up against the ruthless monsters to defend those who can't defend themselves (Loras is knocked dizzy already).

I love the Weese-turned dog parallel you make there! One correction: Rorge is not the one who chews Brienne's face. That was Biter. Do you know their backstory? Rorge was involved with a ring of illegal man-fights (like dogfights and cock-fights nowadays), and Biter was his champion. So, basically, Biter is Rorge's dog.

Cantuse proposes that the Ryswell man-at-arms is actually one of the two Ryswell brothers, instead of a man-at-arms. I'm not sure whether the rest of his theory about that is correct (that someone managed to glamor himself as a Ryswell brother to get in and out of WF). But Theon can't tell two of the brothers apart. He sees one of the brothers with one of the spearwives/washerwomen. Then that body is found, and it's the sole one that cannot be identified (because of the dogs), and hidden really. It was discovered by accident. The others were all displayed in plain sight, with the murderer wanting them to be found. But the Ryswell victim wasn't. It's possible one of the Ryswell brothers was murdered for some sort of switch or mistaken identity reasons in cooperation with the other Ryswell brother. Heck, it might have been his brother who did it for inheritance reasons (as we know happens in the Vale with those 3 brothers, and why most likely Big Walder slaughtered Little Walder). But then the body got found, and to make it look less suspicious other men-at-arms were killed to make it look as if they had a killer on the loose. Theon's suspicions and opinions about it all are imo a red herring. Something else is going on, and the Ryswell man-at-arms murder is off for several reasons.

Not sure about voodoo-related entities in a doll. I think it's more mundane. Sandor stole Gregor's toy-knight because Sandor most likely had idealized ideas about knighthood himself as young boys tend to do. It symbolizes imo how Sandor wanted to be a heroic knight one day. The incident, his father covering it up and top of that Gregor being knighted, disillusioned Sandor so much that he rejected the knightly concept completely as a falsehood. Arya destroying the child's doll is an echo of that: especially because in her mind Beric failed his promise, and she lost her best friend Gendry to becoming one. 

[Evolett]

@ sweetsunnray - I'll have to read the stuff going on at Winterfell again - just wrote this off the top of my head. And yes, you're right about Biter. I think it was Rorge that ravaged the girl at Saltpans. 

Regarding the dolls - what you say is correct of course and not lost on me, but George often hides finer supernatural themes within a perfectly normal context. Warging and skinchanging is presented openly. We learn a lot about the mechanisms through Bran and Varamyr in particular but that doesn't mean the theme is restricted to those characters we know openly practice it. Distinctive helms are always clues to possible supernatural manifestations, echoing the Helm of Darkness which confers invisibility - and warging is essentially a spiritual practice that renders the soul invisible. We've seen ravens with 'shadows' of CotF, Orell's eagle retained a part of his soul - these examples show that parts of a soul can remain bound to an animal familiar. Mel binds the shade of the Lord of Bones to Mance to disguise him. The idea that certain individuals are bound to shadows or spirits isn't that far-fetched. The individual may not even be aware of this and I don't think any of them are. In spiritual traditions, practitioners take extra care to protect the brow (third eye) and crown chakra's from abuse by negative forces. These chakras are the portals via which souls may leave and enter the body and leaving them unprotected opens one to spiritual attack. 
 

If you consider the further hidden implication of 'remember who you are' and the idea that Azor Ahai will be reborn - what exactly should be remembered and what is being reborn here?  Why should Dany be prompted to remember who she is when she'll still in the process of discovering who she is. It's as if Quaith is telling her to renounce the identity she is building for herself in favour of something she has forgotten. Can she forget something she never knew? What are 'salt and smoke' really? Could it be that salt and smoke refer to the reborn spirits of important ancestors who played a role in the past and who must now return to complete a specific task? 

[LmL]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I'm working on extensive Sansa essays within the Bear-Maiden mythology at the moment. It's going slow thoug, because there are many themes I had to pull apart.

It's funny, how often I see a paragraph that first makes me think of your astronomical essays, and then only later I realize how they can relate as a specific foreshadowing of the character's arc. The ants mentioning of that KL scene from the rood stood out, but only now I think it might actually be a foreshadowing scene just as the ants at the Gates of the Moon scene foreshadows the avalanche event. Except in this case it would be the foreshadowing of the Vale mountain clans attack, with the Burned Men leading.

I've prattled about this before, but yeah, the way Martin layers so many ideas and foreshadowings in a given scene is mind boggling. How does he juggle so many ideas? Well, it does take him a long time to write. And that's partially because of how dense his ideas are. On a related note, I'm starting to see variations among the various AA incarnations, perhaps different aspects or "phases" of the character. I think the specific dynamics of the scene may inform on this, as we've speculated with regards to Sandor being a protector. Eventually I expect to have clarity on these permutations but I'm still charting out the broad strokes.

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I'm not yet sure about Theon actually having a redemption arc. It seems set up that way bu the end of aDwD, but George might be toying with us there. Theon's twisted split identity arc could be the groundwork for a type of Gollum-Smeagol variation. Perhaps his Reek may rear its head up again, and may actually be crucial for the end-game. As in - he does something selfish, which tuns out to have a positive butterfly effect. The Gollum-Smeagol character is perhaps Tolkien's part of his ring epic that is a trope-turnaround that is exactly right up George's sleeve. Tad Williams did it too with his Cadrach character in Memory, Sorrow and Thorn fantasy epic.

I could see that, definitely  I wouldn't expect Theon ever to be "healed" and totally rehabilitated. He's always be Reek to an extent. when I say redemption arc, I might just mean a rotten person sacrificing themselves at the end, a la Darth Vader. He never was rehabilitated, no happily ever after, but he did one courageous thing at the end of his life. That's what I expect from Theon, and I suspect AA might have done this as either the NK or the LH, sacrificing himself in atonement. 

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And Jaime - he seemed to start on a redemption arc when he saved Brienne, but imo he's not on one yet. He let another do the searching, and he basically does the pacification work for Cersei, Freys and Lannisters. And he has no regret yet for his act with Bran. And his doom-dream suggest that Jaime is on a clock and time is running out.

Yeah Jaime has a ways to go still, but there's no question it is something of a redemption arc, if only for himself and keepin his own word. Doesn't mean he's not arrogant or even that he's sorry for Bran, just that he's changed his overall path and has begun to care about other people a bit. His division from Cersei is a big factor in all of that. The old Jaime fits with Cersei just fine; the new Jaime does not. I agree Jaime has a ticking clock and most likely a tragic death. 

[hiemal]

Re: redemption, the Hound, the Kingslayer, and Theon Turncloak

An interesting thread that runs through many of the redemptive story arcs is the idea of maiming and mutilation which when combined with the shamanistic path of self-mutilation to power and wisdom demonstrated particularly well by the Burned Men leads to speculate about it as a force for transformation. I wonder if anyone has made a list of all those who are missing body-parts or are otherwise maimed and how many of them seem to have gained from it....

[LmL]

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

Getting back to the Hound as an AA archetype: his arc is quite fascinating because it reveals the progressive transformation of a tormented soul, bitter soul who serves a bunch of immoral unscrupulous masters to a man who throws off the shackles of obedience and duty and begins to act within his own moral principles. This culminates in the ‘death’ of his original persona and opportunity to restore his tormented soul on the Quiet Isle. As such, the ‘loss’ of his distinctive helmet and trademark and his role as a gravedigger represent a departure and burial of his old self and the final step towards attaining peace for his tormented soul – I like to think of the gravedigger as a symbol of ‘resting in peace’. Rescuing Sansa before anyone else even notices her absence, preserving her by intervening before she can carry out her impulse to push Joffery off the wall are initial examples of this process. But we see this even earlier in the story, when he rescues Loras from the Mountains wrath. As his disaffection grows, he finally becomes a traitor to king and crown by refusing to continue engaging in battle and finally deserting altogether. This is in stark contrast to the unquestioning obedience he demonstrates at the beginning of the narrative, where he feels justified in fulfilling his duty by hunting down and killing the butcher’s boy Micah.

While reading another thread, I came across this very insightful comment by @Seams. Amongst the things he points out in relation to the OP is this scene:

 

 

In addition to Seams' observations, I realised that it’s also mirrors the theme of a loyal dog turning on its master. The very dog Weese raises from a pup turns on him and kills him. What’s more, the dog eats his master’s face, which is significant in itself because it is Jaqen, a FM, who somehow turns the dog against its master, while Arya herself eventually embarks on a career to change her face. George emphasises this by having Arya recall Rorge and Biter, beasts in human skin, both of whom cannibalise their victims. The Hound’s helm later ends up in Rorge’s possession. He brutalizes his victims, especially women and in a parallel to Weese’s dog, actually eats Briennes face. A similar scene occurs in Winterfell, where the first murder victim ‘falls’ off the battlements and has his face eaten by Grey Jeyne, one of Ramsay’s girls. Very intriguing is the spotted dog, which brings to mind the CotF with their dappled skins. 

 

I have not had time to analyse all this but it provides insights into the role of the FM who unmask the dog’s master turn the dog on him in the process.

 

Returning to the origin of the Hound’s bitterness and fear of fire, we recall the story the fate he suffered at the hands of his brother Gregor. Gregor himself can be described as a ‘beast in human skin’ and I personally believe that all those described as such are indeed beasts in human skin, possessed by a beast soul. Actually, I think Gregor actually did the Hound a favour by taking away the toy knight and pushing and pressing his face into the fire. First note – it’s his face that gets burned – mirroring the obliteration of the face shown above. Secondly, in my opinion, the toy knight (and other toys such as Sweetrobin’s ragdoll) really represent spiritual entities bound to the owner of the toy and these ‘shadows’ are the beasts that hold sway over humans they are bound to (I’ve been working on this, just haven’t had time to publish anything yet).

Notice that both Sansa and Arya destroy such toys – Sansa destroys Sweetrobin’s ragdoll and I believe the ‘giant’ she really destroys is the spirt attached to Sweetrobin. Of course, I don’t rule out other interpretations but this is one important implication of her action and of the GoHH dream. Remember the GoHH can detect skinchangers and probably other entities bound to a person. Read Arya’s destruction of the toy knight belonging to the girl who insisted on following her around. It’s subtext meaning is very illuminating in this context. In any case, we can infer that by taking away the toy knight, Gregor literally denies the Hound this malevolent guiding entity. By burning him as well, Gregor partially severs the bonds binding an incorporeal entity to the Hound and paves the way for the Hound’s redemption arc. That the Hound wears that distinctive helm indicates that he was still attached in some way, a tentative attachment, which we can visualize as a spirit struggling to remain connected after the fiery experience. This is the soul that torments Sandor. Finally losing his helm entirely completes the detachment process. Unfortunately, the helm is picked up by Rorge and later passes on to Lem, so its odyssey through the bodies of men isn’t over yet.

I’ll stop here – this is getting rather long. I look forward to your thoughts on this.

 

PS. @sweetsunray - the guy who falls from WF walls happens to be a Ryswell man-at-arms and a groom - so this extends to your examination of horses. 

Hey Evolett, thanks for dropping by. As usual, you have your own lines of thought going which are highly detailed - sometimes it takes me a minute to lock on to what you are seeing, which is why I like to let your ideas marinate for a minute.

As for the toys: don't know if I agree exactly. I see the Sweetrobin and his doll giant as a reference to Bran controlling Hodor. Bran is a crippled boy in a weirwood throne; Sweetrobin is basically the same. SR controls the giant as Bran does Hodor. The wrecking of the snowcastle by the giant may portend Bran destroying WF or some other icy fortress (heart of winter? "Otherton?" "Otherville?" "Othersburgh?") So the toy is the thing being animated, not the shadow, according to that line of thought (which could be wrong / incomplete). It makes sense - a toy is lifeless until animated by a child. Gregor and Sandor both want to be the knight - Gregor ends up that way and Sandor is disillusioned from his dream, as Sweetsunray mentioned. 

Also in the Eyrie scene, Sansa thinks about making "snow knights," which I take for a reference to Others. Sansa is acting like the NQ here, so making snow knights fits right in. In another scene, Cotter Pyke asks Sam if he really slew an Other, and not just "some child's snow knight."  So again, the child animates the toy, or the Other as the case may be. 

As for Sandor and the burning, consider: Azor Ahai tried to become like a god, stealing the fire of heaven. Instead, he was burned, transformed, and became the dark solar king, an inversion of his desired destiny as solar king. It's the same with Sandor - trying to reach for his mighty destiny, he was burned. Now he's kind of an inverted knight - which is actually a good thing since knights are so worthless in ASOIAF. Not sure what to make of this last bit - becoming the Bloodstone Emperor and inverting the sun was most definitely a BAD thing. Maybe it's just the inversion that is important.  Or maybe the inversion comes first, and the redemption later. That's probably the ticket. 

There's little doubt the helmet and head swapping (Robb's wolf head, etc) denotes transformations of some kind. I suppose the question is what and how. Easy to see that Sandor losing his helm was good for him, and bad for those who wear it. That was a black iron helm too, so loosing it takes away some of Sandor's "Azor Ahai-ness." What does he wear on the Quiet Isle, I wonder?

[LmL]

1 minute ago, hiemal said:

Re: redemption, the Hound, the Kingslayer, and Theon Turncloak

An interesting thread that runs through many of the redemptive story arcs is the idea of maiming and mutilation which when combined with the shamanistic path of self-mutilation to power and wisdom demonstrated particularly well by the Burned Men leads to speculate about it as a force for transformation. I wonder if anyone has made a list of all those who are missing body-parts or are otherwise maimed and how many of them seem to have gained from it....

Yes, certainly this is a thing. It also refers to Odin giving up one eye to open his third eye... it's a common theme in mythology. As for the specific wounds, you know I have a list of Azor Ahai wounds: one eye, neck wound or decapitation, hand injury. Broken and amputated arms refer to the arm of Dorne. Decapitation implies a fallen celestial body, eye wounds refer to the God's Eye sun / moon conjunction, and the severed or burned hands reflect the fiery hand of R'hllor, as in the "Benerro pantomimes the Mythical Astronomy theory" scene. Beyond those wounds, I am not keeping track. But most of these wounds appear in all of our Azor Ahai characters. Jaime gets an eye wound while fighting Brienne in the water, and of course his hand. Jon has the eye wound from the eagle, burned hand from the wight, and was slashed across the neck by Wick Whittlestick. Beric has them all except the hand. Stannis better watch out for his eyes, quite frankly. 

Theres also the "Fisher King" leg / groin wound phenomena which I've become clued in to. Bloodraven has one of these, probably Eddard too. Bran, same deal. Other people might know more about this topic than I. 

[hiemal]

Just now, LmL said:

Yes, certainly this is a thing. It also refers to Odin giving up one eye to open his third eye... it's a common theme in mythology. As for the specific wounds, you know I have a list of Azor Ahai wounds: one eye, neck wound or decapitation, hand injury. Broken and amputated arms refer to the arm of Dorne. Decapitation implies a fallen celestial body, eye wounds refer to the God's Eye sun / moon conjunction, and the severed or burned hands reflect the fiery hand of R'hllor, as in the "Benerro pantomimes the Mythical Astronomy theory" scene. Beyond those wounds, I am not keeping track. But most of these wounds appear in all of our Azor Ahai characters. Jaime gets an eye wound while fighting Brienne in the water, and of course his hand. Jon has the eye wound from the eagle, burned hand from the wight, and was slashed across the neck by Wick Whittlestick. Beric has them all except the hand. Stannis better watch out for his eyes, quite frankly. 

Theres also the "Fisher King" leg / groin wound phenomena which I've become clued in to. Bloodraven has one of these, probably Eddard too. Bran, same deal. Other people might know more about this topic than I. 

The Odin/BR parallel is the most telling, and a great illustration of the exchange of physical ability for spiritual power. The eyes do seem to be a common theme, from BR, Euron (possibly? he could be faking it like the marcher I think Arya met who sported an unnecessary eyepatch), Crowfood, and of course Symeon Star-Eyes.

As for the Fisher King- I still have the grail bee in my bonnet, Perhaps there is someone at Starfall who fits the bill.

[Meera of Tarth]

Another of your podcasts! So great!

[Evolett]

2 hours ago, LmL said:

Hey Evolett, thanks for dropping by. As usual, you have your own lines of thought going which are highly detailed - sometimes it takes me a minute to lock on to what you are seeing, which is why I like to let your ideas marinate for a minute.

As for the toys: don't know if I agree exactly. I see the Sweetrobin and his doll giant as a reference to Bran controlling Hodor. Bran is a crippled boy in a weirwood throne; Sweetrobin is basically the same. SR controls the giant as Bran does Hodor. The wrecking of the snowcastle by the giant may portend Bran destroying WF or some other icy fortress (heart of winter? "Otherton?" "Otherville?" "Othersburgh?") So the toy is the thing being animated, not the shadow, according to that line of thought (which could be wrong / incomplete). It makes sense - a toy is lifeless until animated by a child. Gregor and Sandor both want to be the knight - Gregor ends up that way and Sandor is disillusioned from his dream, as Sweetsunray mentioned. 

Also in the Eyrie scene, Sansa thinks about making "snow knights," which I take for a reference to Others. Sansa is acting like the NQ here, so making snow knights fits right in. In another scene, Cotter Pyke asks Sam if he really slew an Other, and not just "some child's snow knight."  So again, the child animates the toy, or the Other as the case may be. 

As for Sandor and the burning, consider: Azor Ahai tried to become like a god, stealing the fire of heaven. Instead, he was burned, transformed, and became the dark solar king, an inversion of his desired destiny as solar king. It's the same with Sandor - trying to reach for his mighty destiny, he was burned. Now he's kind of an inverted knight - which is actually a good thing since knights are so worthless in ASOIAF. Not sure what to make of this last bit - becoming the Bloodstone Emperor and inverting the sun was most definitely a BAD thing. Maybe it's just the inversion that is important.  Or maybe the inversion comes first, and the redemption later. That's probably the ticket. 

There's little doubt the helmet and head swapping (Robb's wolf head, etc) denotes transformations of some kind. I suppose the question is what and how. Easy to see that Sandor losing his helm was good for him, and bad for those who wear it. That was a black iron helm too, so loosing it takes away some of Sandor's "Azor Ahai-ness." What does he wear on the Quiet Isle, I wonder?

 

On the question of who is controlling who, sure Bran controls Hodor but that's just the point. Bran is aware of his powers, he's received instruction and guidance from two mentors. The beast in human skin implies it's the other way round - it's the beast here that controls the human, that's quite clear because anyone with an overiding human consciousness would not do the things Rorge, Biter or Ramsay do - or Aerys did for that matter - and he was described as a crowned beast. The beast nature in these characters dominates everything else. The beast becomes the animator here. We know for a fact that a warg who spends too much time in his familiar takes on the nature of the beast. Jojen makes that quite clear. In the extreme cases we see, the possibility of actual control via a beast soul is high. Someone like Ramsay may well be an untaught warg. Bran had a connection to his wolf before he learned to control the phenomenon. He had wolf-dreams as well. What might have happened if he had had no tuition? Bran really enjoys being in his wolf - Jojen had to warn him several times of the dangers of that. We don't have a Ramsay POV but it's conceivable that he too is a warg, one who spent far too much time in his familiar Think of it in terms of demonic possession if you like. A further possibility is actually being born with such a spirit. Again - we've seen Mel transform the life-fires of a man into a shadow that actually develops inside her like a child - and she gives birth to it. This suggests a woman could be impregnated with both sperm and shadow, become pregnant with a living child, which serves as a host for the alien soul and is eventually born with it. 

Regarding Sansa and the snow-knights - yes, that's a reference to the Others. She acts like the NQ? What did the NQ do? She not only took the NK's seed, she took his soul as well and we know what that means. Does this mean Sansa will be birthing some kind of shadow? I don't know but with all the weird and wonderful things we've seen who knows? No, seriously, I do see all the logical explanations but in certain cases, my feeling is there's simply more to it than meets the eye and that includes the toys. Regarding the black iron helm - Mel uses black iron in her glamour spells as well. The ruby Mance wears is embedded in black iron and the purpose of the whole thing is to bind the Lord of Bone's shade to him and to bind Mances soul to herself to make sure she has him under control. Black iron is an ingredient in dark sorcery - you've shown that many times yourself. 

 

The Hound again - finding all features of the archetype in one person is unlikely, methinks. Beric is also only part of the picture and he actually pursued an honourable cause, with the dark side of the BwB emerging under LS. So regarding the Hound, the following comes to mind: his horse was named Stranger - representing death, with a character to match his name. The Elder Brother renames him - Stranger becomes Driftwood. In fact, Driftwood is so wild that the first story Brienne and co. hear is that he bit off someone's ear. Driftwood was surely whelped in hell, we read. 

Not really a name that suits the horse but ... driftwood is heavily associated with the Ironborn. The driftwood kings were those chosen by kingsmoot on Old Wyk. That went out of style when Urron Greyiron murdered his fellow contenders and made the crown heriditary. Lo and behold - we've just had the first kingsmoot in centuries - Euron Greyjoy wears the driftwood crown now. So, if we're looking for a sequence in the biography or evolution of AA - Euron is the next (and I think final) step. I think he fits the description ascribed to the horse. Whelped in hell. 
I think Rhaegar's rubies also indicate this in a roundabout way. The brothers are waiting for the seventh ruby - since this conversation takes place shortly before they pass the gravedigger, the seventh ruby is likely to be the one representing the Stranger. But the gravedigger is symbolically laying himself to rest. That chapter seems closed. Now, the rubies remind me of Joffery's wedding gift (remember Sandor was also his sworn sword). The chalice bears the jewel encrusted sigils of the the Great Houses. Joffery suggests replacing the Stark Direwolf with the Greyjoy Kraken. The North can easily be associated with the Stranger - the time of no growth etc etc. Arya and Sansa are intimately connected with Sandor. So it fits - there is rivalry between the Stranger and Driftwood - a battle between the Starks and the Ironborn, Euron in particular. It suggests a battle between  unJon and Euron, where Euron represents AA at his height. So. I'll leave you to digest this as well 

[LmL]

7 hours ago, hiemal said:

The Odin/BR parallel is the most telling, and a great illustration of the exchange of physical ability for spiritual power. The eyes do seem to be a common theme, from BR, Euron (possibly? he could be faking it like the marcher I think Arya met who sported an unnecessary eyepatch), Crowfood, and of course Symeon Star-Eyes.

As for the Fisher King- I still have the grail bee in my bonnet, Perhaps there is someone at Starfall who fits the bill.

Well I think it's clear Euron has gained some magical abilities - and I'd guess he likely paid a price for them. The eye wound is itself symbolic - he doesn't have to actually trade the wound for power. The eye wound simply denotes him as a magical person or a seer of some kind. Someone with enhanced vision, etc. It also clues is into the idea that he's playing an AA role, as are Beric and Bloodraven and Jon and Jaime and Oberyn. The unifying thing here is the celestial god's eye and AA's theft of heavenly fire. This act of steering the comet into the moon blinded the eye of God and transformed the Bloodstone Emperor... not to mention the sun and moon and Grrth. Humans gaining godlike powers and knowledge came along with the blinding of the great eye, in other words. 

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

 

On the question of who is controlling who, sure Bran controls Hodor but that's just the point. Bran is aware of his powers, he's received instruction and guidance from two mentors. The beast in human skin implies it's the other way round - it's the beast here that controls the human, that's quite clear because anyone with an overiding human consciousness would not do the things Rorge, Biter or Ramsay do - or Aerys did for that matter - and he was described as a crowned beast. The beast nature in these characters dominates everything else. The beast becomes the animator here. We know for a fact that a warg who spends too much time in his familiar takes on the nature of the beast. Jojen makes that quite clear. In the extreme cases we see, the possibility of actual control via a beast soul is high. Someone like Ramsay may well be an untaught warg. Bran had a connection to his wolf before he learned to control the phenomenon. He had wolf-dreams as well. What might have happened if he had had no tuition? Bran really enjoys being in his wolf - Jojen had to warn him several times of the dangers of that. We don't have a Ramsay POV but it's conceivable that he too is a warg, one who spent far too much time in his familiar Think of it in terms of demonic possession if you like. A further possibility is actually being born with such a spirit. Again - we've seen Mel transform the life-fires of a man into a shadow that actually develops inside her like a child - and she gives birth to it. This suggests a woman could be impregnated with both sperm and shadow, become pregnant with a living child, which serves as a host for the alien soul and is eventually born with it. 

Regarding Sansa and the snow-knights - yes, that's a reference to the Others. She acts like the NQ? What did the NQ do? She not only took the NK's seed, she took his soul as well and we know what that means. Does this mean Sansa will be birthing some kind of shadow? I don't know but with all the weird and wonderful things we've seen who knows? No, seriously, I do see all the logical explanations but in certain cases, my feeling is there's simply more to it than meets the eye and that includes the toys. Regarding the black iron helm - Mel uses black iron in her glamour spells as well. The ruby Mance wears is embedded in black iron and the purpose of the whole thing is to bind the Lord of Bone's shade to him and to bind Mances soul to herself to make sure she has him under control. Black iron is an ingredient in dark sorcery - you've shown that many times yourself. 

 

The Hound again - finding all features of the archetype in one person is unlikely, methinks. Beric is also only part of the picture and he actually pursued an honourable cause, with the dark side of the BwB emerging under LS. So regarding the Hound, the following comes to mind: his horse was named Stranger - representing death, with a character to match his name. The Elder Brother renames him - Stranger becomes Driftwood. In fact, Driftwood is so wild that the first story Brienne and co. hear is that he bit off someone's ear. Driftwood was surely whelped in hell, we read. 

Not really a name that suits the horse but ... driftwood is heavily associated with the Ironborn. The driftwood kings were those chosen by kingsmoot on Old Wyk. That went out of style when Urron Greyiron murdered his fellow contenders and made the crown heriditary. Lo and behold - we've just had the first kingsmoot in centuries - Euron Greyjoy wears the driftwood crown now. So, if we're looking for a sequence in the biography or evolution of AA - Euron is the next (and I think final) step. I think he fits the description ascribed to the horse. Whelped in hell. 
I think Rhaegar's rubies also indicate this in a roundabout way. The brothers are waiting for the seventh ruby - since this conversation takes place shortly before they pass the gravedigger, the seventh ruby is likely to be the one representing the Stranger. But the gravedigger is symbolically laying himself to rest. That chapter seems closed. Now, the rubies remind me of Joffery's wedding gift (remember Sandor was also his sworn sword). The chalice bears the jewel encrusted sigils of the the Great Houses. Joffery suggests replacing the Stark Direwolf with the Greyjoy Kraken. The North can easily be associated with the Stranger - the time of no growth etc etc. Arya and Sansa are intimately connected with Sandor. So it fits - there is rivalry between the Stranger and Driftwood - a battle between the Starks and the Ironborn, Euron in particular. It suggests a battle between  unJon and Euron, where Euron represents AA at his height. So. I'll leave you to digest this as well 

I'm not sure about the last bit, but you have made a connection for me. The Stranger turning into Driftwood parallels the Ironborn sea dragon myth. The sea dragon was a moon meteor - a shadow black death-stone - but is now confused with petrified weirwood (Nagga's bones). Similarly, the Grey King supposedly wore a crown of Nagga's teeth and sat in a throne of Nagga's fangs. Thing is, because Nagga can refer to weirwood or moon meteor, we could interpret this is someone wearing a black iron crown on the Seastone chair - just what Balon does, donning the black iron crown of salt and rock kings. But it could also imply a weirwood throne and a weirwood crown, a la Bloodraven with his weirwood roots wrapping around his head. Even better, the Ironborn also wear a driftwood crown on occasion - their crown is either wood or iron, in both cases. We have a driftwood throne on the Velaryons' island, fwiw. Finally, the idea of driftwood implies things coming out of the sea. The dark tide rises from the depths, and the Drownded God carried a burning brand from the ocean. Similarly, the Ironborn take weapons from the sea in the form of driftwood cudgels which as described as being as hard as iron. All of these ideas are talking about meteorites coming out of the ocean and being used to make weapons for the Ironborn, who in turn come from the sea like iron demons carrying black weapons that drink souls. The Ironborn posses fire from the Storm God's thunderbolt - a meteor - and also from Nagga the sea dragon. Either way, the fire they possess is the fire the BSE AA stole from heaven - moon meteors. 

There may be other ramifications of this condition of dead wood and dead moon meteors - any thoughts? It's running all through the Ironborn material. 

 

[Schwarze Sonne]

Your essay is excellent as always. Although I feel very annoyed about the connection between Bloodstone Emperor, Azor Ahai and the Last Hero. I just don't think the redemption or Darth Vader will be exactly as you stated, how can you be so sure of such fictive scenarios and keep mentioning them is beyond me.

I am in love with almost everything else though.

I doubt there used to be two (physical) moons. The other moon might be metaphorical. I highly doubt bacteria will survive if the moon debris truly fell down. But the most important thing is that if that happened again, there'd be no moon left. I just want the red comet to come back and fall down to cause the cataclysm and leads the world to Armageddon. What if that didn't happen and we somehow ended up with Jon, Dany and Tyrion riding dragons (through freezing cold and blizzard) to fight the Others instead? That would be a letdown.

[Evolett]

12 hours ago, LmL said:

I'm not sure about the last bit, but you have made a connection for me. The Stranger turning into Driftwood parallels the Ironborn sea dragon myth. The sea dragon was a moon meteor - a shadow black death-stone - but is now confused with petrified weirwood (Nagga's bones). Similarly, the Grey King supposedly wore a crown of Nagga's teeth and sat in a throne of Nagga's fangs. Thing is, because Nagga can refer to weirwood or moon meteor, we could interpret this is someone wearing a black iron crown on the Seastone chair - just what Balon does, donning the black iron crown of salt and rock kings. But it could also imply a weirwood throne and a weirwood crown, a la Bloodraven with his weirwood roots wrapping around his head. Even better, the Ironborn also wear a driftwood crown on occasion - their crown is either wood or iron, in both cases. We have a driftwood throne on the Velaryons' island, fwiw. Finally, the idea of driftwood implies things coming out of the sea. The dark tide rises from the depths, and the Drownded God carried a burning brand from the ocean. Similarly, the Ironborn take weapons from the sea in the form of driftwood cudgels which as described as being as hard as iron. All of these ideas are talking about meteorites coming out of the ocean and being used to make weapons for the Ironborn, who in turn come from the sea like iron demons carrying black weapons that drink souls. The Ironborn posses fire from the Storm God's thunderbolt - a meteor - and also from Nagga the sea dragon. Either way, the fire they possess is the fire the BSE AA stole from heaven - moon meteors. 

There may be other ramifications of this condition of dead wood and dead moon meteors - any thoughts? It's running all through the Ironborn material. 

 

 

I'm not very good with celestial imagery unless it's very obvious and I'm not sure what you'e looking for exactly. But in plain-speak, I feel that Aeron's Prophet chapter clearly identifies Euron as a fully fledged Bloodstone Emperor. You've probably earmarked this passage already but I'll point it out because it's so significant:

 

Quote

 

Did Balon say aught to you of the succession?”

 

Aye. They had spoken in the Sea Tower, as the wind howled outside the windows and the waves crashed restlessly below. Balon had shaken his head in despair when he heard what Aeron had to tell him of his last remaining son. “The wolves have made a weakling of him, as I feared,” the king had said. “I pray god that they killed him, so he cannot stand in Asha’s way.” That was Balon’s blindness; he saw himself in his wild, headstrong daughter, and believed she could succeed him. He was wrong in that, and Aeron tried to tell him so. “No woman will ever rule the ironborn, not even a woman such as Asha,” he insisted, but Balon could be deaf to things he did not wish to hear.

 

Before the priest could answer Gorold Goodbrother, the maester’s mouth flapped open once again. “By rights the Seastone Chair belongs to Theon, or Asha if the prince is dead. That is the law.”

 

 

 

Like Arianne's plot to install Myrcella as queen, this is a reference to what went down during the Dawn. It's even more to the point. Balon chose Asha as his heir, he chose her over Theon and he certainly wouldn't have wanted his brother Euron on the Seastone Chair. Asha is the Amethyst Princess here (she's also my Pirate Queen - still writing that up). Very few support her, and interestingly, the only thing Euron and the Damphair have in common is their rejection of Asha status as heir to the throne. Balon decreed it but Aeron goes against his wishes and calls a kingsmoot. I think he would have done even if Euron hadn't snatched the Chair. I suspect he was in a real twist because neither of them suited him. As the 'gods' would have it, Euron is chosen. This really shouldn't surprise us - the Drowned God is not a benevolent god. 

The Damphair has vanished, presumably in hiding and contemplating his next move. I think all will depend on whom he decides to support in the long run. His views regarding women in power are very strong - he might end up supporting Euron after all. This is important because Aeron is a priest of the sea, a prophet. We can't be certain of his powers (I'll come to that again in a sec). However combined with Euron, who like the BSE appears to have acquired some secret knowledge and is obviously dabbling in dark magic (including preparing himself in a way similar to Bran), these two might be a formidable force. 

Why do I think there'll be a battle between unJon and Euron?
Because Jon represents AA in his messianic form, and will have to battle Euron, the BSE come again. Many think Euron is geared towards riding a dragon but I disagree totally with this assessment. Euron's arc suggests he's learned the art of gaining control of Others in Asshai and I think this is exactly what he plans to do - conquer Westeros with an army of the undead. And that places him directly at odds with Jon, whose main goal is to prevent the Others from overrunning Westeros. Daenerys is to be his Night's Queen (the NQ is essential to controlling Others, methinks - hark back to Sansa and the snow-knights). 

Some of the evidence for this - consider my water study, which shows the potential of water in raising the dead, the water ritual performed by the Damphair - this is where driftwood comes in. On the more magical side of things, driftwood is charged with power due to its transformation by the sea. Having no roots to bind it, it is thought of as free to travel far and wide, gathering more magical energy as it journeys. Hence, next to Willow staffs, driftwood is a popular material for magic wands (wands are used to direct energy). Because of its life in water, driftwood is thought to become thirsty and requires finishing in the form of wax or oils. Dry driftwood is often used in mystic bonfires. Also interesting – a driftwood fire burns in vivid blues and greens due to the accumulation of salt within the wood. Finally, driftwood combines the power of earth and sea. As a wand it also incorporates the power of fire. The Damphair carries a driftwood staff invested with the power of earth, sea and fire. We may not have seen it perform any miracles yet but consider Thoros, whose first raising of Beric was an accident. The key was the magic of fire, brought by the comet, or by dragons, whatever. You've seen all the burning weirwood imagery, the Grey King stealing fire from heaven etc. Why did he do this? It could only have been for the intrinsic magic of fire. We know burning wood may release its secrets and facilitate prophecy. What else could burning wood achieve, especially in combination with the water element? 

The Damphair's damp hair is also a clue to this - in fact it's a clue to his considerable power. I noticed the short discussion on hair above but didn't want to comment - I know you guys think my interpretations are sometimes too esoteric but that just happens to be my main interest - the magic behind the scenes. 

Finally - there's this quote to back up my claims:

Quote

The sound of a door opening, the scream of a rusted iron hinge. Euron has come again.

Rusted hinges appear to be places of old magic - we know of one in Westeros - the Wall. Euron has come again. 

 

PS - It may be useful to separate your AA-Types as Schwarze Sonne suggests. Like Jon, Sandor and Beric both lean towards the messianic archetype - we can see the transformation from dark to 'saviour', beginning with Sandor. Bloodstone Emperor types probably won't have a special sword because they represent the actual man who brings ruin.

My choice of candidates here include Ramsay (note the link to the Hound/ fArya, the Pink Letter etc) and of course Euron.
We need another to contrast Beric - I think Mance Rayder is the one you want here. The King-beyond-the-Wall. That works.

Last Hero: Varys, Littlefinger, mm - I'm thinking Tyrion.