What if the north had fleets for both coasts

[Tarellen]

One eastern fleet based at white harbor that's pretty big and one western fleet based at the flint fingers while small is big enough to deater most ironborn raids. The fleets are established by the Royal Starks and are kept until the series begins. How does this change the story?

[Floki of the Ironborn]

1 hour ago, Tarellen said:

One eastern fleet based at white harbor that's pretty big and one western fleet based at the flint fingers while small is big enough to deater most ironborn raids. The fleets are established by the Royal Starks and are kept until the series begins. How does this change the story?

Presumably the Iron Fleet would still overwhelm any small amount of ships available to Flint's Finger. Balon launched a huge invasion of the North, using all his resources. Anything Flint's Finger could throw at them would ultimately just be a distraction and would lead to them losing regardless.

[True.Kitn902]

On Sunday, February 07, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

Cersei is not just the Lady of the Westerlands , she's the mother of the King and was and probably is again the Queen Regent so why would Daven have the power to tell her what to do as the Warden ? you are comparing apples and oranges. 

 

Edmure has not been demoted, he still is the Lord of the Riverlands , it's just that as long as the War is going on and Robb is in the North Blackfish will be Warden of the Southern Marches , his title does not diminish Edmure at all. When Robb was in the South he was in command of Edmure and now that he's up North Blackfish is in command . What sense does it make to give Blackfish the title and not have him in command of the "Southern Marches"  . 

here's how the wiki defines the "Warden" title 

Warden is a military title in the Seven Kingdoms, carrying no connotations of suzerainty. Wardens act as supreme military leaders responsible for the defense of their region in the event of foreign invasion. This avoids any hesitation or power struggles between the high lords over command of the army

Blackfish has "supreme military" responsibility over the Riverlands while Edmure is still Lord of the Riverlands. It's no different then when Robb was there. Edmure handles his Lords and his duties as Lord Paramount as long as he's is doing what his King or Warden want him to do . Robb clearly outranked Edmure and so does his Warden . It's really that simple. 

It would make no difference accept possibly bringing more income to the north pre Wo5k

[Floki of the Ironborn]

11 minutes ago, True.Kitn902 said:

It would make no difference accept possibly bringing more income to the north pre Wo5k

Are you responding to a different thread?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Maintaining a Navy is quite expensive (it is one of the reasons Athens became the de facto super power of Greece as they made all the other city states pay them to maintain it) and I can't see much reason why they would need a Navy on the West coast. In fact as part of a united Westeros it was probably not that  a bad decision to not have one on the East either.

[Tarellen]

1 minute ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Maintaining a Navy is quite expensive (it is one of the reasons Athens became the de facto super power of Greece as they made all the other city states pay them to maintain it) and I can't see much reason why they would need a Navy on the West coast. In fact as part of a united Westeros it was probably not that  a bad decision to not have one on the East either.

Then how come the lannisters have a war fleet on the west coast? Also you can't expect me to believe that the entire east coast is protected by the Royal Navy.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, Tarellen said:

Then how come the lannisters have a war fleet on the west coast? Also you can't expect me to believe that the entire east coast is protected by the Royal Navy.

The City of Lannisport, (twice the size of White Harbor) exporting a much, much more valuable commodity than wood and fur all while the Ironborn are on their doorstop. This is on top of the town of Kayce, Fair Isle and other rich Lords. The Lannister Navy is easily justified and paid for.

The West coast of the North has no ports, no expensive exports to justify the cost of a Navy. It would just be a huge drain on Northern taxes, when the North has bigger issues than a Navy on the East coast that seems like a vanity project.

The East coast has White Harbor, though no other major trader hubs, no real expensive exports and no Ironborn to justify the need of maintaining a Navy. It is probably a decent idea to have one, bit not essential while they were part of Westeros and the Royal fleet protecting the narrow sea. You could justify either having or not having a navy on the East coast and it would seem fair.

And no I don't expect you to believe that the whole coast is protected by the Royal Navy, just like a Northern Navy could not. I'm speaking of demand vs cost, it probably saved the North money.

[Ser Tristan Flowers]

The Ironborn are a seafaring folk, northerners are not. Maintaining a fleet big enough to compete with the ironborn for no other reason than  fighting off a possible invasion, wich is not to be expected anyway since westeros is officially united, would just never be justifiable.

And remember, the westerlands might have a navy, but they´re a lot richer and still couldn´t mess with victarion.

[Tarellen]

2 minutes ago, Ser Tristan Flowers said:

The Ironborn are a seafaring folk, northerners are not. Maintaining a fleet big enough to compete with the ironborn for no other reason than  fighting off a possible invasion, wich is not to be expected anyway since westeros is officially united, would just never be justifiable.

And remember, the westerlands might have a navy, but they´re a lot richer and still couldn´t mess with victarion.

I didn't mean invasion just the average raid can be beaten back with the western fleet

[The Marquis de Leech]

If the North had a fleet, you no longer have the War of the Five Kings as we know it. No Walder Frey to worry about. Which in turn is why the Starks don't do sea-travel, despite their massive coastline - Martin as an author prefers drama over logic, and the idea of Moat Cailin is so much cooler.

Anyway, what you'd be after wouldn't be expensive specialised warships. You'd be after small, fast things, and ships that can be used for fishing and transport during peacetime (you know, ships that can earn their keep). Note also that the North has the largest forest in Westeros - with an ounce of commercial sense, the Starks could be making and selling ships to everyone else. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

8 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

If the North had a fleet, you no longer have the War of the Five Kings as we know it. No Walder Frey to worry about. Which in turn is why the Starks don't do sea-travel, despite their massive coastline - Martin as an author prefers drama over logic, and the idea of Moat Cailin is so much cooler.

How big of a fleet does it need to be to transport 20,000 soldiers? And it would need to be a bigger, more powerful Navy than the Royal Navy or you are potentially sending your entire army to a watery grave.

In 1346 it took 16,000 mariners to transport Edward III’s army of 14,000 men to France. In 1415 it is likely that the numbers of mariners paid to transport Henry V’s army equalled or surpassed the forces they shipped.

Plus there is the Riverrun situation. A Navy does not really help that scenario.

It is understandable that the North did not have a real Navy (though obviously they had some ships) as they were at peace with the South. Maintaining 15,000 mariners all year round is hugely expensive, especially for an economy that basically shuts down in Winter.

This is one of the key reasons, as well as maintaining a standing army and diminishing trade, why the idea of the North splitting from the South seemed like a doomed idea. The running costs don't seem worth it.

8 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Anyway, what you'd be after wouldn't be expensive specialised warships. You'd be after small, fast things, and ships that can be used for fishing and transport during peacetime (you know, ships that can earn their keep). Note also that the North has the largest forest in Westeros - with an ounce of commercial sense, the Starks could be making and selling ships to everyone else. 

They could but it is not like they have a monopoly on wood. There are large forests in the Stormlands, Crownlands, Westerlands and even Vale all far closer to ports meaning Northerners would have to increase their costs and limit trade.

 

 

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

I think Sea Dragon Point makes more sense. It would make a nice seat for Davos, and a comfortable niche.

[dariopatke]

How big of a fleet does it need to be to transport 20,000 soldiers? And it would need to be a bigger, more powerful Navy than the Royal Navy or you are potentially sending your entire army to a watery grave.

In 1346 it took 16,000 mariners to transport Edward III’s army of 14,000 men to France. In 1415 it is likely that the numbers of mariners paid to transport Henry V’s army equalled or surpassed the forces they shipped.

Plus there is the Riverrun situation. A Navy does not really help that scenario.

It is understandable that the North did not have a real Navy (though obviously they had some ships) as they were at peace with the South. Maintaining 15,000 mariners all year round is hugely expensive, especially for an economy that basically shuts down in Winter.

This is one of the key reasons, as well as maintaining a standing army and diminishing trade, why the idea of the North splitting from the South seemed like a doomed idea. The running costs don't seem worth it.

They could but it is not like they have a monopoly on wood. There are large forests in the Stormlands, Crownlands, Westerlands and even Vale all far closer to ports meaning Northerners would have to increase their costs and limit trade.

 

 

How big will Daenerys' fleet be?

They could use ships that can be used for fishing in west coast and in east for trade with Free Cities, they can boost their economy with stroger fleet and they have Ironwood, they can make contracts with southern realms, their wood is better.

Those mariners could earn a lot of money by trading and fishing and make North a little better place in winter. And North needs some castle like Seaguard to be built to protect North from iron scum. Or you know, after war is over, give Glovers Harlaw as a reparation.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Just now, dariopatke said:

How big will Daenerys' fleet be?

Fairly big, Euron sent 90% of the Iron Fleet to collect her.

Just now, dariopatke said:

They could use ships that can be used for fishing in west coast and in east for trade with Free Cities,

They can do that now. We are talking about a Navy here, there are already boats for fishing and trade at White Harbor. It is not the 5th largest city in Westeros without having its own ships.

Fishing makes money and helps feeds the Northern population in Winter. There is already going to be fishing boats.

Just now, dariopatke said:

 

they can boost their economy with stroger fleet and they have Ironwood,

Are you referring to the Ironwood in the game? I'm not sure that 'woods' properties is canon.

And a standing Navy does not boost your economy, it drains it unless you dramatically increase your exports. Which is hard to do for the North as increasing their wood industry would mean they would have to sell cheaper than their rivals and increase the population so they more workers for this increased logging industry.

Just now, dariopatke said:

 

they can make contracts with southern realms, their wood is better.

Again, that is just in the game. Otherwise every Stark Lord for the last thousand years must be an idiot to not have already exploited this unique wood.

Either the wood exists already, then the Starks are already exporting it (though clearly we are seeing no increased demand for it) or it is a game invention as they wanted to create a powerful unknown Northern House who trade directly to the Crown.

Just now, dariopatke said:

Those mariners could earn a lot of money by trading and fishing and make North a little better place in winter.

 Do you not think the current mariners are not already doing this?

Creating a Navy and maintaining it does not magically increase trade (well not at the level you are suggesting) and maintaining a Navy does not increase the amount of fish you catch. Increasing your fishing vassals does this.

Just now, dariopatke said:

 

And North needs some castle like Seaguard to be built to protect North from iron scum. Or you know, after war is over, give Glovers Harlaw as a reparation.

lol How are the Glovers going to get the Island of Harlaw?

This is the thing about the West coast of the North, at some point an intelligent Stark Lord (there must have been a fair few in the last 2,000 years) or his advisor's have calculated the cost of building and maintaining a Seagard equivalent and a West coast navy against what they would make in trade and taxes from such a place and have obviously viewed it as an unnecessary expense. Similar to how some smart Stark has calculated the cost  of maintaining a Lord at Moat Cailin would not be beneficial to the Northern realm.

There are not going to be a lot of changes in the Northern economy until either there is an advancement in technology or a change in how long the seasons last.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I'd imagine the Northern fleet on the west coast would look similar to what House Mallister has:

"A fleet, Your Grace? Half a dozen longships and two war galleys. Enough to defend my own shores against raiders, but I could not hope to meet the Iron Fleet in battle."

At best I see double that but expense and utility are huge expenses here. If WF plans on creating a new lordship and a castle/town on the west coast, repopulating areas, then I get it. Otherwise, Not really sure it's worth it.

[Tarellen]

18 hours ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

If the North had a fleet, you no longer have the War of the Five Kings as we know it. No Walder Frey to worry about. Which in turn is why the Starks don't do sea-travel, despite their massive coastline - Martin as an author prefers drama over logic, and the idea of Moat Cailin is so much cooler.

Anyway, what you'd be after wouldn't be expensive specialised warships. You'd be after small, fast things, and ships that can be used for fishing and transport during peacetime (you know, ships that can earn their keep). Note also that the North has the largest forest in Westeros - with an ounce of commercial sense, the Starks could be making and selling ships to everyone else. 

Yeah didn't medival fishing fleets doubled as the navy?

 

12 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I'd imagine the Northern fleet on the west coast would look similar to what House Mallister has:

"A fleet, Your Grace? Half a dozen longships and two war galleys. Enough to defend my own shores against raiders, but I could not hope to meet the Iron Fleet in battle."

At best I see double that but expense and utility are huge expenses here. If WF plans on creating a new lordship and a castle/town on the west coast, repopulating areas, then I get it. Otherwise, Not really sure it's worth it.

Yeah the western fleet is only good at deafending against raids not full on invasions. And is subsidies by winterfell to protect there western intreasts 

[Adam Yozza]

If you remember the north did have a pretty big standing navy at what later became (or had recently become) White Harbour. Not as big at the Iron Born's full fleet, the Royal Fleet, or the Redwyne fleet but it was large enough to be a major sea based power. It was built by King Brandon the Shipwright. It was burned down by his son King Brandon the Burner after the former was lost at sea. 

Also, Robb has Manderly building a secret navy at White Harbour. That's why Wyman sends so few of his potential troops. Presumably, the rest (4,000 heavy horse and at least an equal amount of foot) are meant to wait for Robb to send word and then use that fleet to flank the Lannister's. If Ned had done this immediately after R.R then that could have happened much sooner.

Don't know about Flint's Finger, but something further north like Sea Dragon Point or Bear Island with something like Mallister's ( Half a dozen longships and two war galleys- Probably double seeing as both locations I mentioned are next to a wood whereas Seaguard isn't) would have been able to stop Asha from taking Deepwood, or Theon from his raid on the Stony Shore. Those don't happen, Winterfell isn't taken, Bran & Rickon are safe and sound, Robb doesn't need to reform the Frey-Stark alliance, no Red Wedding (if he even marries Jeyne- result of grief made decision) Robb goes on to hold out until Purple Wedding, events in Kings Landing and the south play out the same, Tywin dies, Euron raids the Reach (letting Ser Rodrik or whoever and whatever they can muster retake Moat Cailin from the North) Cersei couldn't win the war, Robb wins. Plus, Royce was considering openly defying Lysa and just joining Robb when R.W happened, so if there's no R.W then Robb could have gotten support from some of the most powerful house's in the Vale as well. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

Bravos probably does a pretty good job at keeping slaver ships out of the northern part of the narrow sea, which would in turn provide protection of the Norths East coast.

[Tarellen]

23 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

If you remember the north did have a pretty big standing navy at what later became (or had recently become) White Harbour. Not as big at the Iron Born's full fleet, the Royal Fleet, or the Redwyne fleet but it was large enough to be a major sea based power. It was built by King Brandon the Shipwright. It was burned down by his son King Brandon the Burner after the former was lost at sea. 

Also, Robb has Manderly building a secret navy at White Harbour. That's why Wyman sends so few of his potential troops. Presumably, the rest (4,000 heavy horse and at least an equal amount of foot) are meant to wait for Robb to send word and then use that fleet to flank the Lannister's. If Ned had done this immediately after R.R then that could have happened much sooner.

Don't know about Flint's Finger, but something further north like Sea Dragon Point or Bear Island with something like Mallister's ( Half a dozen longships and two war galleys- Probably double seeing as both locations I mentioned are next to a wood whereas Seaguard isn't) would have been able to stop Asha from taking Deepwood, or Theon from his raid on the Stony Shore. Those don't happen, Winterfell isn't taken, Bran & Rickon are safe and sound, Robb doesn't need to reform the Frey-Stark alliance, no Red Wedding (if he even marries Jeyne- result of grief made decision) Robb goes on to hold out until Purple Wedding, events in Kings Landing and the south play out the same, Tywin dies, Euron raids the Reach (letting Ser Rodrik or whoever and whatever they can muster retake Moat Cailin from the North) Cersei couldn't win the war, Robb wins. Plus, Royce was considering openly defying Lysa and just joining Robb when R.W happened, so if there's no R.W then Robb could have gotten support from some of the most powerful house's in the Vale as well. 

Good thought on what would happen if the north had a fleet on two coasts. Also now the western fleet is based at sea dragon point.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

23 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

 

Also, Robb has Manderly building a secret navy at White Harbour. That's why Wyman sends so few of his potential troops. Presumably, the rest (4,000 heavy horse and at least an equal amount of foot) are meant to wait for Robb to send word and then use that fleet to flank the Lannister's. If Ned had done this immediately after R.R then that could have happened much sooner.

 The Navy was not ordered by Robb but authorized by Bran and Rodrik when both the Umbers and Manderlys requested funds for more boats and he made them work together.

We have no idea how many or few of the Manderly troops Wyman sent, though personally I think it was around 1/3rd.

23 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Don't know about Flint's Finger, but something further north like Sea Dragon Point or Bear Island with something like Mallister's ( Half a dozen longships and two war galleys- Probably double seeing as both locations I mentioned are next to a wood whereas Seaguard isn't)

The lack of Seagard Navy is not down to the location of Wood (there would be smaller  but the cost of a full time crew to maintain those boats. There would be many (smaller) forests located in the Riverlands, perhaps even in the Mallister lands,so getting the wood to build those ships is not the problem.  Arya actually encounters quite a few forests while she is wandering the Riverlands.

Here farmland gave way to forest, the villages and holdfasts were smaller and farther apart, the hills higher and the valleys deeper.

 

23 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

 

 

would have been able to stop Asha from taking Deepwood, or Theon from his raid on the Stony Shore. Those don't happen, Winterfell isn't taken, Bran & Rickon are safe and sound,

I doubt that. A Navy large enough to beat the Iron fleet is going to be hugely expensive and pretty pointless for the East coast.