The curious case of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen

[WolfClaw]

Firstly, as you will probably see I am a new member at this board and I would like to express my appreciation for this boards and its members. The topics and discussions here are always interesting and enlightening, a place to expand your knowledge and understanding of the world which George R. R. Martin have created.

 

The parentage of Jon Snow is a topic of much discussion and will continue to be, until George R. R. Martin reveals the truth, and I suspect even after that.

 

However, what I want is to re-examine the case that and was the milestone that lead to the events of the books, because I must admit that every time that I think of their case, something is always off, from my point of view.

 

Let me explain. Firstly, lets see their characters. Lyanna was always described as headstrong, willful, courageous, hot-tempered and quite outgoing. There is even a comparison between her and Arya. Rhaegar, on the other hand was quite different, and while well- loved by the people, he was said to be quiet, private, bookish and melancholic. He even went out of his way and became a warrior, motivated by something he had read. Not quite the perfect match as some would say,since they are polar opposites. And if I dare say, it would seem that Robert Baratheon, who was outgoing, gregarious and had the remarkable ability to turn enemies into friends, seems to be more compatible with Lyanna. But, Lyanna had express her doubts about him, stating that his love for her would not prevent him from being unfaithful after their marriage.

 

However, “A Song of Ice and Fire” was always about contrasts, as its title suggests, and we all know of the popular belief that opposites attract each other and love knows no bounds, so Rhaegar and Lyanna as a romantic couple is quite possible. Also, it seems that the majority of the fans think that to be the case.

 

That argument is further reinforced by the Eddard Stark's opinion of Rhaegar when Robert accuses him of having raped Lyanna. But, it is strange that Eddard thinks of Rhaegar as noble, since his actions lead to the torturous deaths of his brother and father, Robert's Rebellion and ultimately Lyanna's death. So, it is logical to assume that there are more to it than the readers know, and they may assume. Having that in mind, it seems that Lyanna's kidnapping, may not have been a kidnapping at all, but actually two lovers running away. However, it is strange that the ever thoughtful and noble Rhaegar acted that way, since whether kidnapping or not, running away with another man's betrothed was never noble or thoughtful and he would or should have known that there would be consequences not only to himself, but also to the realm and those he loved. Also, if that is the case and Lyanna willingly left with Rhaegar, then she choose to leave with someone who was already married and had children with another woman, after she accused Robert about the same thing! And not only that, but she willingly choose to became Rhaegar's mistress! Not to mention that it may have helped, if she sent a word to her family about her choice, that in turn it may have prevented the chain of events that lead to Robert's rebellion. Of course, one could argue that both Lyanna and Rhaegar could not have known or they could not have anticipated the implications of their actions. But that is something which is more believable about Lyanna ,who was more hot-tempered, than Rhaegar, who was more prudent. Also, even if Lyanna made known her decision to her family, that alone have not necessary meant that their choice would have been honoured or accepted by their families and loved ones. Running away with another noble's betrothed, was never an easy situation and Robert still may have revolted, demanding his betrothed back, even if she did not loved him. But, even if everything went smoothly and their families accepted their decisions, civil war and rebellion may still have erupted, because of the madness of King Aerys or because House Martell felt dishonoured (or maybe not ,because you know, Martells).

 

On the other hand, if Rhaegar did kidnapped Lyanna, it would be strange that Ned has that opinion about him. Also, Lyanna would not have been easy to capture, due to her fierce character and her proven ability to defend herself, and probably would have tried to escape at any point of her captivity. But, the circumstances under which Lyanna was “captured” are not known and we can only assume at this point. However, what it is known is that after her “capture” both her brother ,who demanded her release, and her father found torturous deaths under order of King Aery's.

 

This part has caused me further skepticism, because Arya so many times is compered to Lyanna. But, Lyanna does nothing after the deaths of her brother and father. On the other hand, Arya swears to avenge her family and punish those who wrong them (we all know of her “prayer”). Knowing this, it is hard to image that some someone who had the same character, or at least share some character features with Arya, to sit idly by and do nothing to avenge her family. At the very least she should have contacted her family. But that does not even happen and we see no reaction from her part . During the whole ordeal and Robert's Rebellion, Lyanna resembles more to Sansa than Arya, taking a passive role to the events and turning into a damsel in distress. Also, if she was not held captive by Rhaegar and she left with him at her own free will, it is strange that she lived for almost a year locked up in a tower with no contact and connection with the outside world. There is also the problem that, when they found her at the Tower of Joy, there was only her and the three Kingsguard, no servants were mentioned. And if our assumptions prove correct, and Jon Snow is indeed Lyanna's son, no doctors (in our case Maesters) or nurses were there to help her give birth to her child, none we know at least! Furthermore, if the dominant belief is true, and not only Lyanna is the mother of Jon Snow but also Rhaegar is his father, then Rhaegar left her with only three Kingsguard to take care of her and his child. This act is far more strange if we consider that Rhaegar, who was so obsessed with a prophecy, that made him change his ways and take up arms, did not make any preparations to increase the chances of survival of a child who was ,according to his belief, part to fulfill that prophecy. Also, if what Ser Barristan said is true and Rhaegar loved Lyanna his action or inaction is becoming far more confusing.

 

On the other hand, Rhaegar was killed before Eddard reached the Tower of Joy and he left three trusted members of the Kingsguard to guard Lyanna but, it is hard to imagine that he had left no other orders to them. Nevertheless, there is the chance that Rhaegar, was so certain that he would return, that he felt no need to leave any other order. Again, we face the same question about Lyanna's part in the whole situation. Were the three Kingsguard there with her own free will or not? Could she have left the tower if she wanted or not and if she could why she have not left? And if the Kingsguard were there only to protect her, and since Rhaegar was dead at this point, why they did not ask her if she wanted to leave with her brother, but instead they choose to stay and fight? From what we know both Arthur Dayne and Eddard Stark knew each other and consider each other men of honour. So, what did Arthur Dayne expect Eddard to do, harm his own sister, a sister which he came to save in the first place? Did Lyanna know that Rhaegar had died and if she did why she did not do anything, if she was at the Tower at her own choosing?

 

That in turn leads to questions about the Kingsguard. Why the three members of the Kingsguard remained there since they knew King Aerys was dead at that point? And of course leads to another question as to why they remained to the Tower if they knew that Rhaegar was also dead? Why they were there in the first place, since their ultimate duty was to protect the King and the royal family? And even if we accept the fact they can do other tasks if they are given that command by the King, Rhaegar was not the King to command them. There is also the fact that six out of the seven members of the Kingsguard were not even in King's Landing since before the Battle of the Trident. Not much of Kingsguard if they were not even close to guard their King! That is even more strange if we consider that six out of the seven members of the Kingsguard were send with Rhaegar , a son that King Aerys did not trust and suspected that he plotted to overthrow him. Then again, Aerys' s madness maybe the reason behind that decision and the presence of three of them at the Battle of the Trident.

 

But let us go back to the matter at hand and Lyanna Stark. While we are told that both Rhaegar and Robert loved her, there is absolutely no indication, up to this point, that Lyanna loved any of them back, only our assumptions. The same can be said in regard to the matter that she is Jon's Snow mother. Truth be told, even if she is Jon's mother, we cannot be certain that she gave birth just before Ned found her. It may have been some time or even some months before the arrival of Eddard at the Tower of Joy. That would explain the lack of nurses and Maesters since she had already given birth if she was at the Tower at her own free will. But still there is the question about the cause of her death, the lack of servants or the “bed of blood” that Eddard found her. However, we must consider that most of our knowledge about what happened at the tower comes from Eddard's dream under the influence of the milk of the poppy. That may mean that the dream was not an actual representation of what really happened there and the truth may vary from that. So, maybe there were more people present there that we do not know of, because they were not present in this memory/dream of Eddard. We must also consider the possibility that the “bed of blood” was not a memory but a representation. Many times death is associated with blood not only in “A Song of Ice and Fire” but in other novels and media. So, Lyanna's death might not have come from childbed fever, but from any other illness, poison, wound or even broken heart. After all, childbed fever does not mean there will be blood as a symptom. All of the above are not only assumptions but also possibilities, since we do not know the full facts and every scenario, however weak or strong, is a possibility.

 

One last note about Jon Snow's parentage. Even if it is not the matter of this post something must be said about that, because it is theorized by most readers the close relationship between Rhaegar, Lyanna and Jon. There are many theories about that matter and dominant among them is that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. But, we must never forget that according to some rumors and theories Jon's mother was Ashara Dayne. According to Ser Barristan one of the Starks bedded her at the Tourney at Harrenhal and got her with child, and it seems that even Catelyn Stark believes there is some truth to it. But the tourney was held some time before Robert's Rebellion and one to two years before the events at the Tower of Joy. Whether, this rumor proves true or not it may be an indication that Jon Snow is older than we think. So, as I stated before we cannot dismiss any scenario, however weak or strong, even those in which Eddard is Jon's father.

 

In the story of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, George R. R. Martin may have created his own representation of the story of Lancelot and Guinevere from the Arthurian Legend. After all the similarities between those two stories are obvious and George R. R. Martin seems to draw inspiration from the Arthurian Legend. The problem is during those events that both Lyanna and Rhaegar acted extremely out of character, from my point of view at least. There is a chance that since we do not see their action and characters first hand, but from the point of view of other people, the opinions and how they thought of Rhaegar and Lyanna's characters may have been incorrect. But since almost all of those people seems to agree, at least to some base level, about the characters and general behaviour of Lyanna and Rhaegar, that means that all of them must be proven wrong and I do not think that this is very likely to happen. So as I stated at the beginning of this post, all of the above have left me a little perplexed and every time I tried to give an explanation , I face the problem that some pieces simply do not fit with each other and something is always amiss.

 

There is always the fact that we simply do not know the whole truth about those events. George R. R. Martin have created this complex, great and very alive world through his novels. He knows better than anyone of his readership where he wants to lead his story, what he wants to do with his characters and what will be the fate of those characters. We are simply along for ride and we must wait and see how everything will unfold.

 

P.S I am not a native english speaker, so please forgive my mistakes and bear with me. Thank you

 

 

 

[house of dayne]

thank you, i appreciate your excellent analysis and well thought out remarks. there are indeed some deep and in congruent mysteries at the heart of the R+L=J theory and i suspect that many who accept it as canon are in for a big surprise.

[sweetsunray]

52 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

Firstly, lets see their characters. Lyanna was always described as headstrong, willful, courageous, hot-tempered and quite outgoing. There is even a comparison between her and Arya. Rhaegar, on the other hand was quite different, and while well- loved by the people, he was said to be quiet, private, bookish and melancholic. He even went out of his way and became a warrior, motivated by something he had read. Not quite the perfect match as some would say,since they are polar opposites. And if I dare say, it would seem that Robert Baratheon, who was outgoing, gregarious and had the remarkable ability to turn enemies into friends, seems to be more compatible with Lyanna.

Let's assume Lyanna is a  high extravert. Research done on the type of temperament of men extraverted women tend to be attracted to or feel chemistry with are

1. the opposite - introverted men
2. an extraverted man who is much higher extraverted than them.

On the other hand extraverted woman tend to report feeling less chemistry with a man who is as extraverted as herself or less.

The assumption that an extraverted man and an extraverted woman are more naturally compatible because of a similar temperament is not backed by the chemistry a majority of extraverted women report to have.

So, I would hesitate to judge for Lyanna who she would feel chemistry for, and who she would not, simply because temperaments differ or are more alike. Opposites do attract, and they can be a match by supporting one another. What matters more for a match to be successful in the long run seems to be what both people in a relationship want out of life, their ambitions for themselves and the other. Two people can be polar opposites in temperament, but have similar aspirations, ideals and wishes and be a far better match than two people of the same temperament with dissimilar aspirations, ideals and wishes.

Based on Lya's remark about Robert: her aspirations don't seem to be hedonistic.

[evita mgfs]

1 hour ago, WolfClaw said:

Firstly, as you will probably see I am a new member at this board and I would like to express my appreciation for this boards and its members. The topics and discussions here are always interesting and enlightening, a place to expand your knowledge and understanding of the world which George R. R. Martin have created.

 

The parentage of Jon Snow is a topic of much discussion and will continue to be, until George R. R. Martin reveals the truth, and I suspect even after that.

 

However, what I want is to re-examine the case that and was the milestone that lead to the events of the books, because I must admit that every time that I think of their case, something is always off, from my point of view.

 

Let me explain. Firstly, lets see their characters. Lyanna was always described as headstrong, willful, courageous, hot-tempered and quite outgoing. There is even a comparison between her and Arya. Rhaegar, on the other hand was quite different, and while well- loved by the people, he was said to be quiet, private, bookish and melancholic. He even went out of his way and became a warrior, motivated by something he had read. Not quite the perfect match as some would say,since they are polar opposites. And if I dare say, it would seem that Robert Baratheon, who was outgoing, gregarious and had the remarkable ability to turn enemies into friends, seems to be more compatible with Lyanna. But, Lyanna had express her doubts about him, stating that his love for her would not prevent him from being unfaithful after their marriage.

 

However, “A Song of Ice and Fire” was always about contrasts, as its title suggests, and we all know of the popular belief that opposites attract each other and love knows no bounds, so Rhaegar and Lyanna as a romantic couple is quite possible. Also, it seems that the majority of the fans think that to be the case.

 

That argument is further reinforced by the Eddard Stark's opinion of Rhaegar when Robert accuses him of having raped Lyanna. But, it is strange that Eddard thinks of Rhaegar as noble, since his actions lead to the torturous deaths of his brother and father, Robert's Rebellion and ultimately Lyanna's death. So, it is logical to assume that there are more to it than the readers know, and they may assume. Having that in mind, it seems that Lyanna's kidnapping, may not have been a kidnapping at all, but actually two lovers running away. However, it is strange that the ever thoughtful and noble Rhaegar acted that way, since whether kidnapping or not, running away with another man's betrothed was never noble or thoughtful and he would or should have known that there would be consequences not only to himself, but also to the realm and those he loved. Also, if that is the case and Lyanna willingly left with Rhaegar, then she choose to leave with someone who was already married and had children with another woman, after she accused Robert about the same thing! And not only that, but she willingly choose to became Rhaegar's mistress! Not to mention that it may have helped, if she sent a word to her family about her choice, that in turn it may have prevented the chain of events that lead to Robert's rebellion. Of course, one could argue that both Lyanna and Rhaegar could not have known or they could not have anticipated the implications of their actions. But that is something which is more believable about Lyanna ,who was more hot-tempered, than Rhaegar, who was more prudent. Also, even if Lyanna made known her decision to her family, that alone have not necessary meant that their choice would have been honoured or accepted by their families and loved ones. Running away with another noble's betrothed, was never an easy situation and Robert still may have revolted, demanding his betrothed back, even if she did not loved him. But, even if everything went smoothly and their families accepted their decisions, civil war and rebellion may still have erupted, because of the madness of King Aerys or because House Martell felt dishonoured (or maybe not ,because you know, Martells).

 

On the other hand, if Rhaegar did kidnapped Lyanna, it would be strange that Ned has that opinion about him. Also, Lyanna would not have been easy to capture, due to her fierce character and her proven ability to defend herself, and probably would have tried to escape at any point of her captivity. But, the circumstances under which Lyanna was “captured” are not known and we can only assume at this point. However, what it is known is that after her “capture” both her brother ,who demanded her release, and her father found torturous deaths under order of King Aery's.

 

This part has caused me further skepticism, because Arya so many times is compered to Lyanna. But, Lyanna does nothing after the deaths of her brother and father. On the other hand, Arya swears to avenge her family and punish those who wrong them (we all know of her “prayer”). Knowing this, it is hard to image that some someone who had the same character, or at least share some character features with Arya, to sit idly by and do nothing to avenge her family. At the very least she should have contacted her family. But that does not even happen and we see no reaction from her part . During the whole ordeal and Robert's Rebellion, Lyanna resembles more to Sansa than Arya, taking a passive role to the events and turning into a damsel in distress. Also, if she was not held captive by Rhaegar and she left with him at her own free will, it is strange that she lived for almost a year locked up in a tower with no contact and connection with the outside world. There is also the problem that, when they found her at the Tower of Joy, there was only her and the three Kingsguard, no servants were mentioned. And if our assumptions prove correct, and Jon Snow is indeed Lyanna's son, no doctors (in our case Maesters) or nurses were there to help her give birth to her child, none we know at least! Furthermore, if the dominant belief is true, and not only Lyanna is the mother of Jon Snow but also Rhaegar is his father, then Rhaegar left her with only three Kingsguard to take care of her and his child. This act is far more strange if we consider that Rhaegar, who was so obsessed with a prophecy, that made him change his ways and take up arms, did not make any preparations to increase the chances of survival of a child who was ,according to his belief, part to fulfill that prophecy. Also, if what Ser Barristan said is true and Rhaegar loved Lyanna his action or inaction is becoming far more confusing.

 

On the other hand, Rhaegar was killed before Eddard reached the Tower of Joy and he left three trusted members of the Kingsguard to guard Lyanna but, it is hard to imagine that he had left no other orders to them. Nevertheless, there is the chance that Rhaegar, was so certain that he would return, that he felt no need to leave any other order. Again, we face the same question about Lyanna's part in the whole situation. Were the three Kingsguard there with her own free will or not? Could she have left the tower if she wanted or not and if she could why she have not left? And if the Kingsguard were there only to protect her, and since Rhaegar was dead at this point, why they did not ask her if she wanted to leave with her brother, but instead they choose to stay and fight? From what we know both Arthur Dayne and Eddard Stark knew each other and consider each other men of honour. So, what did Arthur Dayne expect Eddard to do, harm his own sister, a sister which he came to save in the first place? Did Lyanna know that Rhaegar had died and if she did why she did not do anything, if she was at the Tower at her own choosing?

 

That in turn leads to questions about the Kingsguard. Why the three members of the Kingsguard remained there since they knew King Aerys was dead at that point? And of course leads to another question as to why they remained to the Tower if they knew that Rhaegar was also dead? Why they were there in the first place, since their ultimate duty was to protect the King and the royal family? And even if we accept the fact they can do other tasks if they are given that command by the King, Rhaegar was not the King to command them. There is also the fact that six out of the seven members of the Kingsguard were not even in King's Landing since before the Battle of the Trident. Not much of Kingsguard if they were not even close to guard their King! That is even more strange if we consider that six out of the seven members of the Kingsguard were send with Rhaegar , a son that King Aerys did not trust and suspected that he plotted to overthrow him. Then again, Aerys' s madness maybe the reason behind that decision and the presence of three of them at the Battle of the Trident.

 

But let us go back to the matter at hand and Lyanna Stark. While we are told that both Rhaegar and Robert loved her, there is absolutely no indication, up to this point, that Lyanna loved any of them back, only our assumptions. The same can be said in regard to the matter that she is Jon's Snow mother. Truth be told, even if she is Jon's mother, we cannot be certain that she gave birth just before Ned found her. It may have been some time or even some months before the arrival of Eddard at the Tower of Joy. That would explain the lack of nurses and Maesters since she had already given birth if she was at the Tower at her own free will. But still there is the question about the cause of her death, the lack of servants or the “bed of blood” that Eddard found her. However, we must consider that most of our knowledge about what happened at the tower comes from Eddard's dream under the influence of the milk of the poppy. That may mean that the dream was not an actual representation of what really happened there and the truth may vary from that. So, maybe there were more people present there that we do not know of, because they were not present in this memory/dream of Eddard. We must also consider the possibility that the “bed of blood” was not a memory but a representation. Many times death is associated with blood not only in “A Song of Ice and Fire” but in other novels and media. So, Lyanna's death might not have come from childbed fever, but from any other illness, poison, wound or even broken heart. After all, childbed fever does not mean there will be blood as a symptom. All of the above are not only assumptions but also possibilities, since we do not know the full facts and every scenario, however weak or strong, is a possibility.

 

One last note about Jon Snow's parentage. Even if it is not the matter of this post something must be said about that, because it is theorized by most readers the close relationship between Rhaegar, Lyanna and Jon. There are many theories about that matter and dominant among them is that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. But, we must never forget that according to some rumors and theories Jon's mother was Ashara Dayne. According to Ser Barristan one of the Starks bedded her at the Tourney at Harrenhal and got her with child, and it seems that even Catelyn Stark believes there is some truth to it. But the tourney was held some time before Robert's Rebellion and one to two years before the events at the Tower of Joy. Whether, this rumor proves true or not it may be an indication that Jon Snow is older than we think. So, as I stated before we cannot dismiss any scenario, however weak or strong, even those in which Eddard is Jon's father.

 

In the story of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, George R. R. Martin may have created his own representation of the story of Lancelot and Guinevere from the Arthurian Legend. After all the similarities between those two stories are obvious and George R. R. Martin seems to draw inspiration from the Arthurian Legend. The problem is during those events that both Lyanna and Rhaegar acted extremely out of character, from my point of view at least. There is a chance that since we do not see their action and characters first hand, but from the point of view of other people, the opinions and how they thought of Rhaegar and Lyanna's characters may have been incorrect. But since almost all of those people seems to agree, at least to some base level, about the characters and general behaviour of Lyanna and Rhaegar, that means that all of them must be proven wrong and I do not think that this is very likely to happen. So as I stated at the beginning of this post, all of the above have left me a little perplexed and every time I tried to give an explanation , I face the problem that some pieces simply do not fit with each other and something is always amiss.

 

There is always the fact that we simply do not know the whole truth about those events. George R. R. Martin have created this complex, great and very alive world through his novels. He knows better than anyone of his readership where he wants to lead his story, what he wants to do with his characters and what will be the fate of those characters. We are simply along for ride and we must wait and see how everything will unfold.

 

P.S I am not a native english speaker, so please forgive my mistakes and bear with me. Thank you

 

 

 

WELCOME:  Nicely done!

I seldom respond to topics that debate Jon’s parentage; however, since this essay is so excellently written, I will offer an observation based on Martin’s inspiration from Homeric myth.

Rhaegar’s abduction of Lyanna parallels Paris’ abduction of Helen of Sparta, an event that occurs while Paris is a celebrated guest in the opulent home of the red-haired King Menelaus.  Seducing the wife of the man hosting Trojan royalty is a blatant violation of the sacred laws of hospitality.  Paris’ actions and Helen’s seeming cooperation during this said abduction are the causes of the famous Trojan War.

The Atreides, Menelaus and his brother Agamemon, are the men who launch a 1000 ships to reclaim the newly appointed Helen of Troy.

Now, Martin’s characters are loosely based on those Greek counterparts I mention, as the author likes to put his own twist on these well-loved myths from ancient times.

[Ygrain]

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

Let me explain. Firstly, lets see their characters. Lyanna was always described as headstrong, willful, courageous, hot-tempered and quite outgoing. There is even a comparison between her and Arya. Rhaegar, on the other hand was quite different, and while well- loved by the people, he was said to be quiet, private, bookish and melancholic. He even went out of his way and became a warrior, motivated by something he had read. Not quite the perfect match as some would say,since they are polar opposites. And if I dare say, it would seem that Robert Baratheon, who was outgoing, gregarious and had the remarkable ability to turn enemies into friends, seems to be more compatible with Lyanna. But, Lyanna had express her doubts about him, stating that his love for her would not prevent him from being unfaithful after their marriage.

Lyanna is also described as brought to tears by Rhaegar's song, which is something Arya would never do. So, Lyanna is rather a mix of Arya and Sansa.

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

That argument is further reinforced by the Eddard Stark's opinion of Rhaegar when Robert accuses him of having raped Lyanna. But, it is strange that Eddard thinks of Rhaegar as noble, since his actions lead to the torturous deaths of his brother and father, Robert's Rebellion and ultimately Lyanna's death. So, it is logical to assume that there are more to it than the readers know, and they may assume. Having that in mind, it seems that Lyanna's kidnapping, may not have been a kidnapping at all, but actually two lovers running away. However, it is strange that the ever thoughtful and noble Rhaegar acted that way, since whether kidnapping or not, running away with another man's betrothed was never noble or thoughtful and he would or should have known that there would be consequences not only to himself, but also to the realm and those he loved. Also, if that is the case and Lyanna willingly left with Rhaegar, then she choose to leave with someone who was already married and had children with another woman, after she accused Robert about the same thing! And not only that, but she willingly choose to became Rhaegar's mistress!

She refused the man who would have multiple sexual partners. She possibly ran away with a man who had one sexual partner before her and most likely wouldn't seek that partner ever again.

Plus, the whole issue of polygamy and Lyanna becoming Rhaegar's second wife, which is not the same as being his mistress or concubine.

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

Not to mention that it may have helped, if she sent a word to her family about her choice, that in turn it may have prevented the chain of events that lead to Robert's rebellion.

We don't know that she didn't. The rudimentary knowledge we have about Brandon's act in KL doesn't preclude an angrey elder brother act defending his sister's honor, aka hating on Rhaegar for doing with Lyanna what he himself had done with Barbrey.

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

Of course, one could argue that both Lyanna and Rhaegar could not have known or they could not have anticipated the implications of their actions. But that is something which is more believable about Lyanna ,who was more hot-tempered, than Rhaegar, who was more prudent. Also, even if Lyanna made known her decision to her family, that alone have not necessary meant that their choice would have been honoured or accepted by their families and loved ones. Running away with another noble's betrothed, was never an easy situation and Robert still may have revolted, demanding his betrothed back, even if she did not loved him. But, even if everything went smoothly and their families accepted their decisions, civil war and rebellion may still have erupted, because of the madness of King Aerys or because House Martell felt dishonoured (or maybe not ,because you know, Martells).

I'd say that they could not have anticipated the extent of the shitstorm which got totally out of proportion, but other than that, I agree that there is still too much unknown.

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

On the other hand, if Rhaegar did kidnapped Lyanna, it would be strange that Ned has that opinion about him. Also, Lyanna would not have been easy to capture, due to her fierce character and her proven ability to defend herself, and probably would have tried to escape at any point of her captivity. But, the circumstances under which Lyanna was “captured” are not known and we can only assume at this point. However, what it is known is that after her “capture” both her brother ,who demanded her release, and her father found torturous deaths under order of King Aery's.

Except that the bolded is not confirmed, all we know is that Brandon went bananas and yelled for Rhaegar to come out and die, and that Cat and Hoster labelled his action as rash and stupid, respectively.

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

This part has caused me further skepticism, because Arya so many times is compered to Lyanna. But, Lyanna does nothing after the deaths of her brother and father. On the other hand, Arya swears to avenge her family and punish those who wrong them (we all know of her “prayer”). Knowing this, it is hard to image that some someone who had the same character, or at least share some character features with Arya, to sit idly by and do nothing to avenge her family. At the very least she should have contacted her family. But that does not even happen and we see no reaction from her part . During the whole ordeal and Robert's Rebellion, Lyanna resembles more to Sansa than Arya, taking a passive role to the events and turning into a damsel in distress.

The thing is, most that you state here as fact are things we have no information about. AS for not contacting her family, we don't know that, either - Ned did find his way to ToJ somehow, after all.

Besides, most of the Rebellion, Lyanna was pregnant, which kinda prevents any major heroics. 

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

Also, if she was not held captive by Rhaegar and she left with him at her own free will, it is strange that she lived for almost a year locked up in a tower with no contact and connection with the outside world.

Again, not stated anywhere. And, since in the famous ToJ dialogue, the KG are up-to-date with the events, there was a connection of sorts.

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

There is also the problem that, when they found her at the Tower of Joy, there was only her and the three Kingsguard, no servants were mentioned.

They found Ned holding Lyanna's dead body, so at least one unspecified person was present.

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

And if our assumptions prove correct, and Jon Snow is indeed Lyanna's son, no doctors (in our case Maesters) or nurses were there to help her give birth to her child, none we know at least! Furthermore, if the dominant belief is true, and not only Lyanna is the mother of Jon Snow but also Rhaegar is his father, then Rhaegar left her with only three Kingsguard to take care of her and his child. This act is far more strange if we consider that Rhaegar, who was so obsessed with a prophecy, that made him change his ways and take up arms, did not make any preparations to increase the chances of survival of a child who was ,according to his belief, part to fulfill that prophecy. Also, if what Ser Barristan said is true and Rhaegar loved Lyanna his action or inaction is becoming far more confusing.

See above.

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

On the other hand, Rhaegar was killed before Eddard reached the Tower of Joy and he left three trusted members of the Kingsguard to guard Lyanna but, it is hard to imagine that he had left no other orders to them. Nevertheless, there is the chance that Rhaegar, was so certain that he would return, that he felt no need to leave any other order. Again, we face the same question about Lyanna's part in the whole situation. Were the three Kingsguard there with her own free will or not? Could she have left the tower if she wanted or not and if she could why she have not left?

Because she was pregnant and had to hide both from Aerys and from Robert?

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

And if the Kingsguard were there only to protect her, and since Rhaegar was dead at this point, why they did not ask her if she wanted to leave with her brother, but instead they choose to stay and fight? From what we know both Arthur Dayne and Eddard Stark knew each other and consider each other men of honour. So, what did Arthur Dayne expect Eddard to do, harm his own sister, a sister which he came to save in the first place? Did Lyanna know that Rhaegar had died and if she did why she did not do anything, if she was at the Tower at her own choosing?

Now, this is The Question. Either Rhaegar left orders not to let anyone come near Lyanna or something like that, and the KG felt obliged to obey, or, as I mentioned above, Rhaegar and Lyanna was married, Jon was born legitimate and thus became the heir to the throne. The KG's and Ned's missions and priorities thus became incompatible and fight ensued.

 

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

That in turn leads to questions about the Kingsguard. Why the three members of the Kingsguard remained there since they knew King Aerys was dead at that point? And of course leads to another question as to why they remained to the Tower if they knew that Rhaegar was also dead? Why they were there in the first place, since their ultimate duty was to protect the King and the royal family? And even if we accept the fact they can do other tasks if they are given that command by the King, Rhaegar was not the King to command them.

GRRM staetd that royals can actually order the KG about.

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

There is also the fact that six out of the seven members of the Kingsguard were not even in King's Landing since before the Battle of the Trident. Not much of Kingsguard if they were not even close to guard their King! That is even more strange if we consider that six out of the seven members of the Kingsguard were send with Rhaegar , a son that King Aerys did not trust and suspected that he plotted to overthrow him. Then again, Aerys' s madness maybe the reason behind that decision and the presence of three of them at the Battle of the Trident.

See above. Plus, it seems that the primary suty of the KG is considered as fulfilled if at least one of them is with the king, which there was.

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

But let us go back to the matter at hand and Lyanna Stark. While we are told that both Rhaegar and Robert loved her, there is absolutely no indication, up to this point, that Lyanna loved any of them back, only our assumptions.

Lyanna ins cosntantly remembered by Ned in connection with blue roses, the likes of which were given to her by Rhaegar, and she was even clutching onto them on her deathbed. That might hint a thing or two.

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

The same can be said in regard to the matter that she is Jon's Snow mother. Truth be told, even if she is Jon's mother, we cannot be certain that she gave birth just before Ned found her. It may have been some time or even some months before the arrival of Eddard at the Tower of Joy.

We know that Lyanna gave birth  not long before Ned arrived ("bed of blood" aka birthing bed).

We know that she was weakened by fever, which probably points to puerperal fever, meaning Jon was born a couple of days prior

We know from GRRM that Jon was born about 8-9 months before Dany, who was born 9 months after the Sack

- Meaning, no, not months.

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

That would explain the lack of nurses and Maesters since she had already given birth if she was at the Tower at her own free will. But still there is the question about the cause of her death, the lack of servants or the “bed of blood” that Eddard found her. However, we must consider that most of our knowledge about what happened at the tower comes from Eddard's dream under the influence of the milk of the poppy. That may mean that the dream was not an actual representation of what really happened there and the truth may vary from that.

Please, not this. The dream was indeed drug-induced but Ned identifies it as an old dream, i.e. he has dreamt a similar dream on previous occasions, and it makes sense to him.

Other than that, I agree that the dream is not a literal recording of what happened, but its gist is definitely true or else it wouldn't make sense to Ned to call it an old dream.

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

So, maybe there were more people present there that we do not know of, because they were not present in this memory/dream of Eddard. We must also consider the possibility that the “bed of blood” was not a memory but a representation.

It corresponds with Ned's waking memory from his early chapter, that Lyanna's room smelled of blood and roses.

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

Many times death is associated with blood not only in “A Song of Ice and Fire” but in other novels and media. So, Lyanna's death might not have come from childbed fever, but from any other illness, poison, wound or even broken heart. After all, childbed fever does not mean there will be blood as a symptom. All of the above are not only assumptions but also possibilities, since we do not know the full facts and every scenario, however weak or strong, is a possibility.

The way the phrase "bed of blood" is consistently used points only and solely towards childbrth:
 

“Before,” Dany said to the ugly Lhazareen woman, “I heard you speak of birthing songs …”

“I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe,” Mirri Maz Duur replied. (AGOT)

“The Lamb Woman knows the secrets of the birthing bed,” Irri said. “She said so, I heard her.” (AGOT)

That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. (Damphair, AFFC)

Plus, postpartum bleeding continues for weeks, and increased bleeding is indeed one of the symptoms of puerperal fever.

 

51 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

In the story of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, George R. R. Martin may have created his own representation of the story of Lancelot and Guinevere from the Arthurian Legend. After all the similarities between those two stories are obvious and George R. R. Martin seems to draw inspiration from the Arthurian Legend. The problem is during those events that both Lyanna and Rhaegar acted extremely out of character, from my point of view at least. There is a chance that since we do not see their action and characters first hand, but from the point of view of other people, the opinions and how they thought of Rhaegar and Lyanna's characters may have been incorrect. But since almost all of those people seems to agree, at least to some base level, about the characters and general behaviour of Lyanna and Rhaegar, that means that all of them must be proven wrong and I do not think that this is very likely to happen. So as I stated at the beginning of this post, all of the above have left me a little perplexed and every time I tried to give an explanation , I face the problem that some pieces simply do not fit with each other and something is always amiss.

Because you have there a couple of incorrect premises.

BTW, any idea why your title closely resembles an old Heretic thread on this topic?

 

[sweetsunray]

57 minutes ago, WolfClaw said:

Also, if that is the case and Lyanna willingly left with Rhaegar, then she choose to leave with someone who was already married and had children with another woman, after she accused Robert about the same thing! And not only that, but she willingly choose to became Rhaegar's mistress! Not to mention that it may have helped, if she sent a word to her family about her choice, that in turn it may have prevented the chain of events that lead to Robert's rebellion.

Assuming that Lya eloped willingly with Rhaegar:

1. While I agree that Lya's and Rhaegar's actions aren't any better than Robert fathering bastards left and right, they still are two different actions. Rhaegar cheats on his wife with one woman he risks everything for and that woman risks everything as well. Whereas Robert cheats for hedonistic reasons and would continue to do so. Robert's philandering has nothing to do with loving the women he has affairs with. It has nothing to do with love. Lya's complaint is that Robert would cheat on the love of his life even, just because he loves to make the eight. It doesn't make Lya's and Rhaegar's actions more ethical and Robert's more reprehensible from an outside POV. But it definitely is not the same thing. One immoral choice is made motivated by love, the other immortal choice is motivated by indiscriminating lust. To say she's doing the same thing she accuses Robert of is imho not correct. Ned seems not to think the two are the same thing either.

2. We cannot assume that Lya did not send a word to her family about her choice. We only know that if there was such a message Ned and Robert never knew about it. We do not know what message or report Brandon responded to so hotly about. It's even possible that Brandon acted rashly on a message from Lyanna. We do not know the exact circumstances how Brandon learned of it. You make an error by saying that Brandon demanded Lyanna to be released. The only confirmation we have is that Brandon demanded Rhaegar to come out and die. That would fit the scenario of an older brother who challenges the chosen lover of his sister to a duel.

Or Lyanna sent a message to Rickard, and he never publically revealed it. All we know about him is that he answered Aerys's call to appear before court to answer for his son's crime of treason (threatening the crown prince's life). That Rickard went, demanded a trial and never came back. Richard's reactions about Lyanna's disappearance is absent in the text.

Or perhaps her message got lost. Ravens get hunted by other birds or animals, or the rider may have had some accidnet and never reached his destination.

We don't know where Ned's bones are, or Maege Mormont, or Robb's will. We are not currently sure what Robb wrote in that will exactly and where those who signed it are, or even who has the will on his or her body. Meanwhile nobody else in-world even considers the notion that Robb might have written a will. Ned wrote a letter to Stannis that never reached its destination either. So, why do you assume that just because Ned doesn't know about a message from Lyanna that there never was one?

Perhaps your assumption is correct. Perhaps there never was a message from Lyanna or Rhaegar to the Starks or a trusted person. But it is an assumption you cannot be certain about and use as an argument against the Lya-Rhaegar romance.

1 hour ago, WolfClaw said:

But, Lyanna does nothing after the deaths of her brother and father. On the other hand, Arya swears to avenge her family and punish those who wrong them (we all know of her “prayer”). Knowing this, it is hard to image that some someone who had the same character, or at least share some character features with Arya, to sit idly by and do nothing to avenge her family. At the very least she should have contacted her family. But that does not even happen and we see no reaction from her part

Again, see the above arguments. I will use your Arya anology. Sure, Arya expresses desire to get justice for what's done to her family... but who else in aSoIaF knows about this? Nobody, except Sandor who's hiding at the Quite Isle, and Jaquen who's a FM. If Arya were to turn up several years later when the wars and disasters are all done, Sansa might accuse her of not having done anything. Heck, if LF dies because Sansa plays her cards right, she might be the one who can claim she ever tried to do anything about it. We do not have a POV into Lya's time at the ToJ to claim she tried nothing. Maybe she did. Maybe she didn't.

 

1 hour ago, WolfClaw said:

Also, if she was not held captive by Rhaegar and she left with him at her own free will, it is strange that she lived for almost a year locked up in a tower with no contact and connection with the outside world. There is also the problem that, when they found her at the Tower of Joy, there was only her and the three Kingsguard, no servants were mentioned. And if our assumptions prove correct, and Jon Snow is indeed Lyanna's son, no doctors (in our case Maesters) or nurses were there to help her give birth to her child, none we know at least!

Wrong... There's the "they found him". When Lya died, Ned passed out, and "they" found him. We just don't know who "they" are.

Ned's ToJ dream is a "dream". Servants and maesters and midwives aren't featured in it, because it's a dream. Only the KG and Lya calling his name mean something to Ned, which is why they alone feature in the dream. Even his own bodyguard (alive and dead) only appear as vague shadows. I hope you don't truly take that literal. It's not even certain that the chronology of the ToJ dream is as it went down (the dream suggests the fight with the KG happens before Lya dying, but it may actually be something that took place AFTER he had already seen Lya die), let alone the conversation. George himself has emphasized it's a dream and that things may have happened slightly differently in reality than in the dream.

George wrote it as a dream, because he wanted to preserve the msytery and a secret. Describing maesters and midwives in Ned's memory of the ToJ would be way too obvious. Again, just because maesters and nurses and servants aren't features in a dream, doesn't mean they weren't there.

Anyhow. you are new here and welcome... but normally the sceptical arguments to R+L=J are addressed in the specific R+L=J thread for it.

[WolfClaw]

Apparently, there are some things that I did not make clear and I apologize for that. This topic has nothing to do with the theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. This topic is about the events that transpire after the capture of Lyanna up to the point Eddard found her at the Tower of Joy. As I stated before, the only thing we know for certain about Jon's parentage is that Eddard claimed that Jon is his son. All other things we say are theories and assumptions, so everyone of them can be true or false unless stated differently in the books. So, I would like everyone to respect each others opinions on that matter.

 

My personal belief is that Rhaegar did not abducted Lyanna, but she went with him willingly, because she loved him. I also believe that the most likely scenario is Jon Snow is their son, but since I have no proof and there is no written fact in the books about that ,I cannot state that this is true. There is also no proven fact in the books for the time being, that Lyanna was pregnant, that she married Rhaegar or that she loved Rhaegar to the best of my knowledge

 

While I would like Jon to be Robert's son, I also do not have any proof about that. If you read my analysis closely I did not make such a claim.

[Marcus Agrippa]

This has been discussed to death. Still, I am still not sure on the marriage thing, and whether or not the current psychopath who is high septon would see it as legitimate

[evita mgfs]

1 hour ago, WolfClaw said:

Apparently, there are some things that I did not make clear and I apologize for that. This topic has nothing to do with the theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. This topic is about the events that transpire after the capture of Lyanna up to the point Eddard found her at the Tower of Joy. As I stated before, the only thing we know for certain about Jon's parentage is that Eddard claimed that Jon is his son. All other things we say are theories and assumptions, so everyone of them can be true or false unless stated differently in the books. So, I would like everyone to respect each others opinions on that matter.

 

My personal belief is that Rhaegar did not abducted Lyanna, but she went with him willingly, because she loved him. I also believe that the most likely scenario is Jon Snow is their son, but since I have no proof and there is no written fact in the books about that ,I cannot state that this is true. There is also no proven fact in the books for the time being, that Lyanna was pregnant, that she married Rhaegar or that she loved Rhaegar to the best of my knowledge

 

While I would like Jon to be Robert's son, I also do not have any proof about that. If you read my analysis closely I did not make such a claim.

And this is why I avoid posting in any thread about this subject!

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Let me just throw one thought at you. You seem to be trapped in the usual alternative: Rhaegar wanted Lyanna and kidnapped her, or maybe Lyanna wanted Rhaegar and ran away with him.

I propose a third option: the events had very little to do with Rhaegar's romantic feelings for Lyanna or vice versa. Lyanna didn't want Robert, and she ran under Rhaegar's protection - because, seriously, there were very few people in the world she could've asked for help, if she had decided to defy her lord father and break her engagement with Lord of Storm's End. Roughly, she did what Alys Karstark would do fifteen years later (yes, there are differences, but superficial rather than fundamental).

The romance between the two that followed was an unintended consequence. That sometimes happen (see: Robb Stark and Jeyne Westerling).

[Ser Leftwich]

TLDR: We don't actually know what happened between Lyanna and Rhaegar, so therefore anything is possible.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Lyanna is also described as brought to tears by Rhaegar's song, which is something Arya would never do. So, Lyanna is rather a mix of Arya and Sansa.

She refused the man who would have multiple sexual partners. She possibly ran away with a man who had one sexual partner before her and most likely wouldn't seek that partner ever again.

Plus, the whole issue of polygamy and Lyanna becoming Rhaegar's second wife, which is not the same as being his mistress or concubine.

We don't know that she didn't. The rudimentary knowledge we have about Brandon's act in KL doesn't preclude an angrey elder brother act defending his sister's honor, aka hating on Rhaegar for doing with Lyanna what he himself had done with Barbrey.

I'd say that they could not have anticipated the extent of the shitstorm which got totally out of proportion, but other than that, I agree that there is still too much unknown.

Except that the bolded is not confirmed, all we know is that Brandon went bananas and yelled for Rhaegar to come out and die, and that Cat and Hoster labelled his action as rash and stupid, respectively.

The thing is, most that you state here as fact are things we have no information about. AS for not contacting her family, we don't know that, either - Ned did find his way to ToJ somehow, after all.

Besides, most of the Rebellion, Lyanna was pregnant, which kinda prevents any major heroics. 

Again, not stated anywhere. And, since in the famous ToJ dialogue, the KG are up-to-date with the events, there was a connection of sorts.

They found Ned holding Lyanna's dead body, so at least one unspecified person was present.

See above.

Because she was pregnant and had to hide both from Aerys and from Robert?

Now, this is The Question. Either Rhaegar left orders not to let anyone come near Lyanna or something like that, and the KG felt obliged to obey, or, as I mentioned above, Rhaegar and Lyanna was married, Jon was born legitimate and thus became the heir to the throne. The KG's and Ned's missions and priorities thus became incompatible and fight ensued.

 

GRRM staetd that royals can actually order the KG about.

See above. Plus, it seems that the primary suty of the KG is considered as fulfilled if at least one of them is with the king, which there was.

Lyanna ins cosntantly remembered by Ned in connection with blue roses, the likes of which were given to her by Rhaegar, and she was even clutching onto them on her deathbed. That might hint a thing or two.

We know that Lyanna gave birth  not long before Ned arrived ("bed of blood" aka birthing bed).

We know that she was weakened by fever, which probably points to puerperal fever, meaning Jon was born a couple of days prior

We know from GRRM that Jon was born about 8-9 months before Dany, who was born 9 months after the Sack

- Meaning, no, not months.

Please, not this. The dream was indeed drug-induced but Ned identifies it as an old dream, i.e. he has dreamt a similar dream on previous occasions, and it makes sense to him.

Other than that, I agree that the dream is not a literal recording of what happened, but its gist is definitely true or else it wouldn't make sense to Ned to call it an old dream.

It corresponds with Ned's waking memory from his early chapter, that Lyanna's room smelled of blood and roses.

The way the phrase "bed of blood" is consistently used points only and solely towards childbrth:
 

“Before,” Dany said to the ugly Lhazareen woman, “I heard you speak of birthing songs …”

“I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe,” Mirri Maz Duur replied. (AGOT)

“The Lamb Woman knows the secrets of the birthing bed,” Irri said. “She said so, I heard her.” (AGOT)

That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. (Damphair, AFFC)

Plus, postpartum bleeding continues for weeks, and increased bleeding is indeed one of the symptoms of puerperal fever.

 

Because you have there a couple of incorrect premises.

BTW, any idea why your title closely resembles an old Heretic thread on this topic?

 

I agree with everything you said, except the part about Arya not crying to sad music. I'm not sure about now, at this point in the story, that it's something she'll likely do, given everything traumatic she's experienced, it's got to change anyone. But I could've  completely seen a 15 year old Arya, minus the baggage, being touched by the sadness in a soulful, moving song. She's cried in the books, she is/was very sensitive and compassionate, especially to those that others may not even interact with, due to their difference in station. Basically, I think Lyanna at 15 would've been almost identical to Arya, at that same age, in almost every way. So if Lyanna cried, Arya would've almost definitely have cried, in my opinion.

 

The toughest of women cry, as do the hardest of men. It's a fact of life, even if some that are guilty of it are too tough or too hard to admit it. When you're moved, you're moved.

[Sly Wren]

21 hours ago, WolfClaw said:

Apparently, there are some things that I did not make clear and I apologize for that. This topic has nothing to do with the theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. This topic is about the events that transpire after the capture of Lyanna up to the point Eddard found her at the Tower of Joy. As I stated before, the only thing we know for certain about Jon's parentage is that Eddard claimed that Jon is his son. All other things we say are theories and assumptions, so everyone of them can be true or false unless stated differently in the books. So, I would like everyone to respect each others opinions on that matter.

1. AMEN!

2. Excellent run-down on a lot of the problems with interpreting the tower situation.

Since you are interested in ideas re: what on earth's happening at the tower:

@Kingmonkey thread 

 Goes into some interesting ideas.

There's also @PrettyPig and her take on the Mirri's tent and the tower's being related.

And, of course, there's the argument that no one's in the tower at all.

On April 5, 2016 at 11:38 AM, WolfClaw said:

That argument is further reinforced by the Eddard Stark's opinion of Rhaegar when Robert accuses him of having raped Lyanna. But, it is strange that Eddard thinks of Rhaegar as noble, since his actions lead to the torturous deaths of his brother and father, Robert's Rebellion and ultimately Lyanna's death. So, it is logical to assume that there are more to it than the readers know, and they may assume. Having that in mind, it seems that Lyanna's kidnapping, may not have been a kidnapping at all, but actually two lovers running away. However, it is strange that the ever thoughtful and noble Rhaegar acted that way, since whether kidnapping or not, running away with another man's betrothed was never noble or thoughtful and he would or should have known that there would be consequences not only to himself, but also to the realm and those he loved. Also, if that is the case and Lyanna willingly left with Rhaegar, then she choose to leave with someone who was already married and had children with another woman, after she accused Robert about the same thing! And not only that, but she willingly choose to became Rhaegar's mistress! Not to mention that it may have helped, if she sent a word to her family about her choice, that in turn it may have prevented the chain of events that lead to Robert's rebellion. Of course, one could argue that both Lyanna and Rhaegar could not have known or they could not have anticipated the implications of their actions. But that is something which is more believable about Lyanna ,who was more hot-tempered, than Rhaegar, who was more prudent. Also, even if Lyanna made known her decision to her family, that alone have not necessary meant that their choice would have been honoured or accepted by their families and loved ones. Running away with another noble's betrothed, was never an easy situation and Robert still may have revolted, demanding his betrothed back, even if she did not loved him. But, even if everything went smoothly and their families accepted their decisions, civil war and rebellion may still have erupted, because of the madness of King Aerys or because House Martell felt dishonoured (or maybe not ,because you know, Martells).

YUP! Ned's take on Rhaegar and Rhaegar's intents in a LOT of things are very. . . full of holes.

Same with Barristan's thoughts on unhorsing Rhaegar as "being a better knight" not "a better rider, etc."--as though not defeating Rhaegar was some kind of shame to his Barristonian knightliness.

Plus, Rhaegar's desire to replace his father--that had been in play for a WHILE. 

My current take, (subject to change at any moment) is that someone else ordered/encouraged/orchestreated Lyanna's taking. Possibly based on misinformation--like Cat's misinformation from Baelish leads to her taking Tyrion in the Riverlands not many leagues from Harrenhal. 

Possibly Tywin. Or Even Aerys, if someone fed his paranoia.

But one way or another, Rhaegar's taking Lyanna ran very counter to his older plan of deposing his father and taking over. And it's a big character shift based on the tiny info we have.

And Ned's take on Rhaegar is. . . odd.

23 hours ago, house of dayne said:

thank you, i appreciate your excellent analysis and well thought out remarks. there are indeed some deep and in congruent mysteries at the heart of the R+L=J theory and i suspect that many who accept it as canon are in for a big surprise.

YUP!

[Stubby]

[MOD]

There is already a thread for this topic.

[/MOD]