[Spoilers] Rant and Rave Without Reprecussions - Season 6, Tally-Ho

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, Crixus said:

Guys. I've had a bottle of wine and consequently summoned up the balls to watch s5 again for the first time since it aired. I'm on episode 1, so wish me luck enough that I do not hurl, and manage to report back. 

Salut! 

I think you're going to need more alcohol, and stronger stuff than wine. I did try to re-watch s 5 but never got past episode 4... Good luck!

[The Ned's Little Girl]

7 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

not to derail the thread (if it were possible) but there is something I don't understand about the SanSan shipping. I get the BatB theme.  I get the seeing the inner beauty of someone.  I get that Sansa is able to use her innate "feminine" skills to reach and heal the Hound.  I get the attraction of the Hound to Sansa-the  yearning for the innocence lost.  I get that he benefits from the relationship by healing and that empowers HIM.   I get the Hound uses his strength to protect Sansa, but isn't that taking Sansa's power from her, that she needs a strong male to protect her?  isn't that defeating the notion of her empowerment? that she is too weak to defend herself and needs the big bad Hound? 

I think of it as him offering his physical strength to her because that is the one thing that he has in abundance, something that he can offer her as a gift. It's his way of declaring his love because he probably isn't going to send her flowers with heartfelt poetry or anything like that, lol.

The greatest thing that Sandor gives her, though, is that he in interested in her for herself. Not for her claim or her potential political assets; he sees her as a person. That actually helps her gain the kind of strength and power that she most needs.

I'm as feminist as anybody, but I don't think that it's automatically demeaning or a loss of power to look for basic protection to someone else who is physically larger and stronger and more capable of providing said protection. It's mostly a matter of biology that many men are bigger and physically stronger than many women. It's only when these realities become hardened into dogma (as in, "you're not a real man unless you bust some heads" or "you're not a real woman unless you are meek and forgiving") that they do damage.

 

[SerMixalot]

1 minute ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I think of it as him offering his physical strength to her because that is the one thing that he has in abundance, something that he can offer her as a gift. It's his way of declaring his love because he probably isn't going to send her flowers with heartfelt poetry or anything like that, lol.

The greatest thing that Sandor gives her, though, is that he in interested in her for herself. Not for her claim or her potential political assets; he sees her as a person. That actually helps her gain the kind of strength and power that she most needs.

I'm as feminist as anybody, but I don't think that it's automatically demeaning or a loss of power to look for basic protection to someone else who is physically larger and stronger and more capable of providing said protection. It's mostly a matter of biology that many men are bigger and physically stronger than many women. It's only when these realities become hardened into dogma (as in, "you're not a real man unless you bust some heads" or "you're not a real woman unless you are meek and forgiving") that they do damage.

 

ok so it is the healthy symbiotic nature of the relationship that empowers both.  Each giving and receiving their special talents to the betterment of both.  It would seem to walk a thin line though if it reinforces the toxic notions that you describe ie if the Hound's only "gift" were his strength, but since it is seeing and loving Sansa for who she is that makes the relationship go beyond the toxic. 

I guess I still have some confusion over a male protecting those that he loves.  If he fails he has failed what he believes is his duty.  that belief does not have to be the only thing that defines a man, but is pretty important wouldn't you say?  For example, if I were married and failed in protecting my wife from attack I would feel disgraced that I failed her.  How can those feelings be both healthy and toxic? 

[LadySoftheart]

2 hours ago, SerMixalot said:

ok so it is the healthy symbiotic nature of the relationship that empowers both.  Each giving and receiving their special talents to the betterment of both.  It would seem to walk a thin line though if it reinforces the toxic notions that you describe ie if the Hound's only "gift" were his strength, but since it is seeing and loving Sansa for who she is that makes the relationship go beyond the toxic. 

I guess I still have some confusion over a male protecting those that he loves.  If he fails he has failed what he believes is his duty.  that belief does not have to be the only thing that defines a man, but is pretty important wouldn't you say?  For example, if I were married and failed in protecting my wife from attack I would feel disgraced that I failed her.  How can those feelings be both healthy and toxic? 

I think they would be toxic if you felt your ONLY worth to her was as a source of physical protection, that there was nothing else about you that she valued beyond  your having greater strength, and if your image of yourself was that you were less than a man if you could not "protect" her or let her make her own choices about when and where she needs/wants protection. That is a fairly reductive and potentially toxic view of masculinity, just as it would be reductive and poisonous for your wife to believe you only loved her for her beauty and that your love would go away as soon as she stopped being beautiful? That's how I see it, anyway.

Bringing up my fave BatB - when Jaime thinks that his life has no value because he can no longer be a warrior and he wills himself to die, that is an example of - IMO - toxic masculinity, and it's SO important that Brienne talks him out of that belief that only his sword hand mattered, even before she knows that there is more to Jaime than she believed.

Though Jaime is initially a lot less sexist than many of the men of Westeros, because of his lifelong doubling with his female twin, Jaime's journey with Brienne strips him of even the vestiges of that mindset. He cannot protect her with his strength anymore from rape, so he uses his wits. He cannot protect her with a sword, so he uses his body as her shield, but he is not protecting her in the bearpit because she is a woman and he is a man, and those are their assigned gender roles, but because she is precious to him in a way that he doesn't fully understand himself. And he is perfectly willing to let her defend herself against the bear as long as he believes her to be appropriately armed - in fact, he has every faith she can defeat it, until he realizes her sword has no edge. This, for me, is the reason I fell in love with this pair: they are - very much - equals. (Which is why Jaime's comment on the show about not being a woman "thank the gods" or Brienne telling him he's acting like a "bloody woman" offend me on such a deep level: that misogyny and the "toxic masculinity" that accompanies it, are not part of these two characters' makeup.)

[SerMixalot]

thanks lady and ned's little girl, I appreciate the perspectives, definitely helped

[OldGimletEye]

1 hour ago, SerMixalot said:

not to derail the thread (if it were possible) but there is something I don't understand about the SanSan shipping. I get the BatB theme.  I get the seeing the inner beauty of someone.  I get that Sansa is able to use her innate "feminine" skills to reach and heal the Hound.  I get the attraction of the Hound to Sansa-the  yearning for the innocence lost.  I get that he benefits from the relationship by healing and that empowers HIM.   I get the Hound uses his strength to protect Sansa, but isn't that taking Sansa's power from her, that she needs a strong male to protect her?  isn't that defeating the notion of her empowerment? that she is too weak to defend herself and needs the big bad Hound? 

Okay, but is having big bad Brienne around better? 

Does Dany happen to lose empowerment because she so happens to have a dragon as a potential protector?

Does Sansa lose empowerment because most of her soldiers in the upcoming battles will probably be male?

Well, see it doesn't really matter what gender Sansa's "protector" is, so long as that "protector" is competent and trustworthy.

Sansa isn't a fighter. And that is fine. Not everyone can be. Lack of fighting skills doesn't make a person "unworthy" in any sense. It doesn't mean that a person should be excluded from, let's say, holding political power. It doesn't mean that person shouldn't be allowed to make some fundamental choices concerning their life.  It doesn't mean that person is not strong. And that is a point that has been repeatedly made by Sansa defenders on the General Forum. There is more than being "bad ass"

But Westeros is a violent place, and since Sansa is not a fighter, she probably could use some physical protection.

Now, that physical protection doesn't necessarily have to be provided by Sandor Clegane. Could be somebody else, like Brienne, who I'm sure would do just fine. But, that isn't the point of Sandor's and Sansa's relationship. The real point of their relationship is that they have formed a strong bond. Let's suppose Sandor has been permanently injured and can't fight anymore? Does that bond just go away? No it doesn't. Now surely, Sandor would protect Sansa with his life if necessary. But, that doesn't mean their relationship is all about Sandor protecting her.

Sansa Stark is the scion of an ancient noble family and the potential heiress of the North. Sandor Clegane on the other hand is pretty much a nobody, being the grandson of a kennel master. Sansa could have her choice of "protectors". She doesn't need Sandor necessarily for that. But, again, that really isn't the point of their relationship. It's kind of like saying that Queen Victoria didn't have empowerment because she might have had a relationship with John Brown. Of course saying that would be preposterous.

Finally, the nature of their relationship isn't one sided. Sansa does care about Sandor. Let's just assume, for the sake of argument, that Sansa doesn't have any romantic interest in Sandor. Even if we accept that, still she does seemed concerned about his welfare, at least in the books that is pretty clear. Even if Sandor was incapable of fighting anymore, I doubt Sansa would be like,"Oh Sandor can't fight anymore and not protect me? Well fuck him!"

Thinking that their relationship is just all about Sandor "protecting" Sansa misses a lot in the bond they developed.

[WinterPool Stark]

I love this thread!

i don't mind waving a lot of the issues away as the show is just 'fun' now. It is sad to think about the wasted potential though but I'm still eagerly awaiting each episode. The way Hotah died though REALLY got to me I must say. Even in the show he was introduced as a very observant bodyguard who doesn't miss much (saw some DVD extra last season) yet he lets a Sandsnake stand behind him and gets taken out by toenail clippers?? At least get a guard or 2 to jump him or something. Just a little something extra...

[Sir Loin Steak]

10 minutes ago, WinterPool Stark said:

The way Hotah died though REALLY got to me I must say. Even in the show he was introduced as a very observant bodyguard who doesn't miss much (saw some DVD extra last season) yet he lets a Sandsnake stand behind him and gets taken out by toenail clippers?? At least get a guard or 2 to jump him or something. Just a little something extra...

When Hotah dropped like a sack of potatoes, I imagined his internal monologue was a sad "Down I go..."

Much like this scene from The Simpsons, except Hans put up more of a fight than Hotah 

 

[The Wull]

4 minutes ago, Sir Loin Steak said:

When Hotah dropped like a sack of potatoes, I imagined his internal monologue was a sad "Down I go..."

Much like this scene from The Simpsons, except Hans put up more of a fight than Hotah 

 

haha this made me picture a Dolorous Edd epilogue, likely in Dream of Spring.  He makes it the whole way through the series and dies in the last chapter of the last book.  Naturally.

[ArabellaVidal]

Thank you people for this discussion on feminism and toxic masculinity. I love westeros.org so much sometimes.

[Toth]

I second Arabella. Discourses like these are why we are here.

[WinterPool Stark]

13 minutes ago, Sir Loin Steak said:

When Hotah dropped like a sack of potatoes, I imagined his internal monologue was a sad "Down I go..."

Much like this scene from The Simpsons, except Hans put up more of a fight than Hotah 

 

Hahaaa 'down I goo...' That's where DD got their inspiration from for sure!

[SerMixalot]

and to think I feared bringing up the issue! and I learned something.

now back to ranting and reaving!

[Toth]

2 minutes ago, WinterPool Stark said:

Hahaaa 'down I goo...' That's where DD got their inspiration from for sure!

Thing is, deaths like these make me mad as hell since... well, since at least season 3. For a scene they made a tv show for, the Red Wedding was awfully artificial in the way the extras just sat there and went down like nothing. You see, in the books it was not so heartbreaking because so many people were slaughtered like sheep, but because they were fighting to live. It was Darcy Mormont and Greatjon Umber smashing heads, the playing with hope when the Northmen broke open the door etc... And instead we got nameless bearded guys with zero will to live.

[SerMixalot]

From Cogman interview about Sansa s5 arc

"Yes, it would have been hugely satisfying [for Sansa] to have a shiv up her sleeve and gut Ramsay, but that’s not Sansa. We can’t all be Arya (Maisie Williams) and, in fact, most people aren’t Arya. Most people in that situation, they have to play a longer game.”

oh my farking god, how offensive.  Being a rape victim means playing a longer game?? What the actual fuck does that supposed to mean?  He is saying not everyone can fight back against their rapist with violence so.... have to play a longer game? a game of what?

 

WHY did I read that article!?!?!?!

[Ser Quork]

8 minutes ago, Toth said:

Thing is, deaths like these make me mad as hell since... well, since at least season 3. For a scene they made a tv show for, the Red Wedding was awfully artificial in the way the extras just sat there and went down like nothing. You see, in the books it was not so heartbreaking because so many people were slaughtered like sheep, but because they were fighting to live. It was Darcy Mormont and Greatjon Umber smashing heads, the playing with hope when the Northmen broke open the door etc... And instead we got nameless bearded guys with zero will to live.

 I mentioned this to some friends: I thought the scene in the show is actually really badly paced and reactions slow to non-existent. 

It's much the same for Jon's assassination: all these blokes come forward, slowly and deliberately, to stab Jon one by one, and he reacts as if "Oh, here's another one.  Oh well, nothing I can do."  He doesn't try to run, to fight, to defend himself in any way.

[kissdbyfire]

8 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

From Cogman interview about Sansa s5 arc

"Yes, it would have been hugely satisfying [for Sansa] to have a shiv up her sleeve and gut Ramsay, but that’s not Sansa. We can’t all be Arya (Maisie Williams) and, in fact, most people aren’t Arya. Most people in that situation, they have to play a longer game.”

oh my farking god, how offensive.  Being a rape victim means playing a longer game?? What the actual fuck does that supposed to mean?  He is saying not everyone can fight back against their rapist with violence so.... have to play a longer game? a game of what?

 

WHY did I read that article!?!?!?!

Yes, that piece is just so terribly offensive and insensitive. I have no idea why he thought these were good arguments. 

[LadySoftheart]

5 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

 I mentioned this to some friends: I thought the scene in the show is actually really badly paced and reactions slow to non-existent. 

It's much the same for Jon's assassination: all these blokes come forward, slowly and deliberately, to stab Jon one by one, and he reacts as if "Oh, here's another one.  Oh well, nothing I can do."  He doesn't try to run, to fight, to defend himself in any way.

This is because they are focusing on the result (Jon's death; Robb and Catelyn's deaths) and not on the process (in a larger sense the show focuses entirely on "the ending" and not on how we get there, which results in the butchery of all these characters.) 

Compare Jon's assassination to the assassination of Caesar on HBO's "Rome":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FvgP5hO99o&sns=em

 

the latter was staged incredibly and used the actors to great effect (Caesar never says "et tu, Brute!" but you see it in his eyes.) Of course there were hours of logical buildup to that assassination and viewers knew it was coming but it still didn't look like Caesar had read the script and knew he was going to die there.

 

as for the Red Wedding, I always compare it to Patrice Chereau's staging of St Bartholomew's Eve in "Queen Margot":

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GwUKrBgRb0&sns=em

 

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

 I mentioned this to some friends: I thought the scene in the show is actually really badly paced and reactions slow to non-existent. 

It's much the same for Jon's assassination: all these blokes come forward, slowly and deliberately, to stab Jon one by one, and he reacts as if "Oh, here's another one.  Oh well, nothing I can do."  He doesn't try to run, to fight, to defend himself in any way.

Exactly! He just stands there like an idiot, while there's this huge queue of people waiting their turn to stab him! It's very much like this:

 

[Stannis is the man....nis]

17 minutes ago, SerMixalot said:

From Cogman interview about Sansa s5 arc

"Yes, it would have been hugely satisfying [for Sansa] to have a shiv up her sleeve and gut Ramsay, but that’s not Sansa. We can’t all be Arya (Maisie Williams) and, in fact, most people aren’t Arya. Most people in that situation, they have to play a longer game.”

oh my farking god, how offensive.  Being a rape victim means playing a longer game?? What the actual fuck does that supposed to mean?  He is saying not everyone can fight back against their rapist with violence so.... have to play a longer game? a game of what?

 

WHY did I read that article!?!?!?!

WHAT LONG GAME!?! Seriously after she got raped she tried to escape their was no strategy to it she was in freakin' Jeyne Pool's role their wasn't a scheme going