Is Drogon really Meant for Daenerys ?

[LmL]

On April 30, 2016 at 11:24 AM, LucifeLMartelL said:

I can't shake this feeling that Drogon is not meant for Daenerys, i sometimes even ponder if any of them are meant for her?

I know we have seen her riding Drogon, but I felt it was more in terms of Drogon sensing his mother in danger and coming to her aide and rescuing her instinctively. He let her ride him, his mother, as it was, what was required at the moment. But other wise i don't see her being able to do much with him. Its clear she is not in control of him. I also think Danny's story s one of irony. In spite of it all she will never be the queen of westeros and i don't know if any of her dragons are meant for her. But its her destiny to be the bearer of weapons or these vessels that are going to help her family succeed in their ventures but not her, and that will be her legacy. Perhaps, It will be her brother and nephew/nephews who will eventually do it.

Ofcourse i could be totally wrong about all this and GRRM is know for his strong women characters. So if he this the White maiden got to be riding the black dragon, then so be it. But then i don't see Danny in that light, for me she is almost a bit better than Sansa. The strong women character baton is picked up by Arya and also, i don't see Azor Ahai riding the second best Rhaegal or Viserion.
And by the looks of it if R+L = J and then if J is Azor Ahai then I wouldn't be surprised if the crow with his wolf got to ride the black dragon. And that would be something to behold. Then maybe she will actually bond with Rhaegal and the little lion shall ride Viserion.
And i think because of her inability to make Drogon do pretty much anything and not realizing that he actually is not meant for her, she will settle for Victarion's offer and use dragon binder on Drogon thus severe anything sacred between them, Drogon will be enslaved by her to do her bidding till his true rider Azor ahai arrives and takes him off of her. Danny will have to see her most beloved son go and ... bla bla bla ...
Or perhaps Victarion is going to use dragonbinder to slave either Rhaegal or Viserion or both and hence gaining more bargaining power with Danny, to make her marry him . . .

I would like your two cents on this ... Maybe John will have to settle for Rhaegal , who knows... !?

I've always found it interesting that the white wolf Ghost is called Jon's white shadow, while Drogon is a black shadow to Dany. Dany is pale and silver, with a black shadow, and Jon, dressed in black head to heal and who is euphemistically said to bleed black blood (as all NW brothers are said to) has a white shadow. It's very Yin & Yang. Aegon the conqueror shows us a black dragon person on a black dragon with a sword named Blackfyre, and Rhaegar was also known for night balck armor and a black steed, black lance, etc. No contrast there, just blackness trough and through. But Jon and Dany have the black / white pairing. What does it mean? I have my own ideas, but the point is it's an interesting contrast. 

I do think we have ample evidence of Drogon and Dany having a growing bond. They share psychic communication on several occasions, and the real definition of a dragonbond that is outwardly identifiable is the dragon allowing the person to ride. I see every reason to believe she will continue to strengthen her bond with him. I get the feeling Dany has a ways to go still to become the I care tion of a Valyrian dragonlord (which I believe is her destiny), which is one of the things I most look forward to. I think she will blow the dragonbinder horn, though not to bind dragons, and I think Marwyn must surely have brought a glass candle with him, and he's seeking Daenerys. 

I can see the idea of Jon riding Drogon, but I don't think Dany and Drogon were somehow not meant for each other. I think Jon will ride either Viserion or an as yet unseen dragon - either a true ice dragon (Jon IS an ice dragon after all) or some kind of dragon which was hibernating in Winterfell and woke at the end of ACOK. 

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nope, Yandel is citing an Archmaester who is clearly talking about a Valyrian dragonrider there because the story of the Falcon Knight only came up after the Arryns took over the Vale - but by that Valyria had already risen to prominence and power, and Valyrian dragonlords most likely had already been seen by the First Men of Westeros one way or another (and the Andals who came to Westeros and the Arryn kings who wanted to hear songs about their famous fairy-tale ancestor may even have had clashes with the dragonlords in the past).

But actually I'd doubt that Perestan is right with his theory about the Falcon Knight being inspired by a dragonrider at all. The idea of a huge bird being ridden by a great hero isn't exactly anything that has to be driven from any real world scenario. People can just come up with that kind of thing because it sounds cool and the Arryn sigil shows a falcon. That this kind of things still works is amply proven by young Lord Robert Arryn.

 

Nope. The legend of the winged knight is "many thousand years earlier (than the andal conquest)".

It probably predates the rise of Valyria. We know dragons existed before, and were controlled by another civilization in the Dawn Age. Anyways its beside the point.

The point is there is a legend of a hero with an army of beasts at his command (skinchanger) who marries CotF, and rides a huge winged beast, that flew to the top of a mountain to kill the griffin king.

now, of course one is free to believe whatever interpretation of text. you can choose to believe the more agnostic view that the maesters always have about magical stuff, in this case, that the legends confused the winged knight with some dragonlord. Maesters always dismiss magic and myths (in this case the existance of this skinchanger), and their are usually wrong (probably always).

But you can´t hardly say there is no hint of skinchanger dragonlords, because this could very possibly be one.

 

[LmL]

1 minute ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

Nope. The leyend of the winged knight is "many thousand years earlier (than the andal conquest)".

It probably predates the rise of Valyria. We know dragons existed before, and were controlled by another civilization in the Dawn Age. Anyways its beside the point.

The point is there is a legend of a hero with an army of beasts at his command (skinchanger) who marries CotF, and rides a huge winged beast, that flew to the top of a mountain to kill the griffin king.

now, of course one is free to believe whatever interpretation of text. you can choose to believe the more agnostic view that the maesters always have about magical stuff, in this case, that the legends confused the winged knight with some dragonlord. Maesters always dismiss magic and myths (in this case the existance of this skinchanger), and their are usually wrong (probably always).

But you can´t hardly say there is no hint of skinchanger dragonlords, because this could very possibly be one.

 

I agree @LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse, and was about to point out that the Winged Knight seems to be an older legend which was eventually merged with the Arryn founding legend. That sort of thing is standard procure in the real world, and I've found evidence of Martin recreating that effect in this tale as well as several others. I don't know if this legend is referring to dragon riders or not, but it is certainly not ruled out by anything. We have ample evidence that dragons and dragon riders were in Westeros in the Dawn Age, before Valyria ever existed, and we are also told than Valyria never came in to Westeros, stopping at Dragonstone, until Aegon the Conqueror. Much to do is made of this in TWOIAF. So if the Winged Knight refers to dragon riders, they almost certainly cannot be Valyrian, but would instead be another sitting of Dawn Age dragonlords in Westeros. 

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

14 minutes ago, LmL said:

I agree @LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse, and was about to point out that the Winged Knight seems to be an older legend which was eventually merged with the Arryn founding legend. That sort of thing is standard procure in the real world, and I've found evidence of Martin recreating that effect in this tale as well as several others. I don't know if this legend is referring to dragon riders or not, but it is certainly not ruled out by anything. We have ample evidence that dragons and dragon riders were in Westeros in the Dawn Age, before Valyria ever existed, and we are also told than Valyria never came in to Westeros, stopping at Dragonstone, until Aegon the Conqueror. Much to do is made of this in TWOIAF. So if the Winged Knight refers to dragon riders, they almost certainly cannot be Valyrian, but would instead be another sitting of Dawn Age dragonlords in Westeros. 

yes also, there are hints of that these pre-valyrian dragonlords come to westeros to learn the magic of the COTF.

it makes sense for this Geodawnian dragonlord that become the Winged Knight to be a skinchanger.

 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Yup Drogon was meant for her.  She dreamed of him full grown prior to the fossilized eggs hatching.  They are already bonded as of her last chapter in DwD. He is hers until one of them dies.

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Yup Drogon was meant for her.  She dreamed of him full grown prior to the fossilized eggs hatching.  They are already bonded as of her last chapter in DwD. He is hers until one of them dies.

Good point about the dream. She absolutely dreams of him before he even exists. That's pretty meaningful. 

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse said:

Nope. The legend of the winged knight is "many thousand years earlier (than the andal conquest)".

It probably predates the rise of Valyria. We know dragons existed before, and were controlled by another civilization in the Dawn Age. Anyways its beside the point.

The point is there is a legend of a hero with an army of beasts at his command (skinchanger) who marries CotF, and rides a huge winged beast, that flew to the top of a mountain to kill the griffin king.

now, of course one is free to believe whatever interpretation of text. you can choose to believe the more agnostic view that the maesters always have about magical stuff, in this case, that the legends confused the winged knight with some dragonlord. Maesters always dismiss magic and myths (in this case the existance of this skinchanger), and their are usually wrong (probably always).

But you can´t hardly say there is no hint of skinchanger dragonlords, because this could very possibly be one.

There is neither proof nor a hint that the story about Ser Artys Arryn the Winged Knight is based on an earlier story about a First Man from the Age of Heroes. All we have is a story about an Arryn hero from the Age of Heroes that most likely never existed. If you wanted to maintain that this story isn't an invention by the singers - as many details about the Battle of the Seven Stars already might be - you would actually have to have confirmation that the Winged Knight story existed in an earlier version with no connection to Artys Arryn. But we don't have such a confirmation. And neither do we have reason to believe that there was ever a Griffin King this Winged Knight guy defeated. The very talk of a Winged Knight gives the story away as a later invention as Yandel points out in other cases - there were no knights back before the Andals came. We also know that the Vale was fragmented and not united in the days before the Andals came. There were no Casterlys, Durrandons, or Gardener equivalents in the Vale (lines who early on united the Vale).

We also have no confirmation that there ever was another civilization who actually controlled dragons. All we have is that the Asshai'i claim they taught the Valyrians how to control dragons - but this isn't the same as claiming the Asshai'i ever used dragons to build an empire or destroyed their enemies. You can have an ability but use it differently or not at all and still be able to pass it on.

7 hours ago, LmL said:

I agree @LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse, and was about to point out that the Winged Knight seems to be an older legend which was eventually merged with the Arryn founding legend. That sort of thing is standard procure in the real world, and I've found evidence of Martin recreating that effect in this tale as well as several others. I don't know if this legend is referring to dragon riders or not, but it is certainly not ruled out by anything. We have ample evidence that dragons and dragon riders were in Westeros in the Dawn Age, before Valyria ever existed, and we are also told than Valyria never came in to Westeros, stopping at Dragonstone, until Aegon the Conqueror. Much to do is made of this in TWOIAF. So if the Winged Knight refers to dragon riders, they almost certainly cannot be Valyrian, but would instead be another sitting of Dawn Age dragonlords in Westeros. 

No, we know from TWoIaF that dragonlords were actually seen flying across Blackwater Bay and the Narrow Sea by Westerosi after the Valyrians had taken Dragonstone and Driftmark. Since we actually have no idea when the story about the Winged Knight came up it might even be that it only was invented and became popular in the Vale 500-400 years ago. The singers always invent new stories, after all. Proof for that are the stories told about the entirely fictitious Targaryen princess Daeryssa who was saved by Serwyn of the Mirror Shield from giants in a song.

We only have some evidence that there might have been dragons in Westeros at one point in the distant past, but no evidence about dragonriders in Westeros. And there is talk that the Valyrians might have come to Oldtown in the distant past.

 

[Scorpion92]

The dream of Drogon she sees in AGOT I actually interpret as Jon being THE dragon here. It has a lot of parallels to sex and childbirth and how Martin describes Azor Ahai sword forging, flames engulfing her "in ecstasy" and all.

But yeah, I definitely foresee Jon-Drogon connection as well as Dany-Ghost connection ("mount TO love").

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

On 4/30/2016 at 1:45 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Drogon is meant for the special snowflake. Black always was his color. 

That face I make when I see "Special Snowflake"

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Scorpion92 said:

The dream of Drogon she sees in AGOT I actually interpret as Jon being THE dragon here. It has a lot of parallels to sex and childbirth and how Martin describes Azor Ahai sword forging, flames engulfing her "in ecstasy" and all.

That is actually a very counter-intuitive interpretation. Dany's chapters in AGoT are both very self-contained (George once published them as an independent novella called 'The Blood of the Dragon') and the dream is actually literally a prophetic dream about her hatching the dragon eggs later on.

[Protagoras]

Why do Jon need to have everything and what is the issue with people who think everything is about him and that he must be soooo very special all the time?

He has already received his magical sword and his magical animal (with magical powers) and his goofy sidekicks, who are loyal and passive towards him,  and his commandership (most of these things he get pretty easy) and his hidden destiny and (most likely) his extra live(s) so he can survive his stabbing. Then in addition to this he gets, in the three first books, a "get out of jail free card" so he never suffer for any consequences from the choices he makes - like a very special plot armour where the world adapts toward him, protecting him from bad stuff when he stands up for "what´s right". And now you want Jon to have the biggest dragon because you think he is the biggest hero? What the hell is wrong with you? At least Daenerys suffers for the stuff she gets. 

An entire storyarc is already about him, but noooo - EVERYTHING needs to be related to him and his story should according to some be the only one that matters, which the other characters gladly lining up to form his B-team, complementing his specialness etc and then, somehow, the war against the Others are the only struggle that matters because how else could he be so special. 

What kind of story do you think you are reading? Havn´t you learned anything after Robbs demise and after Eddards? Or maybe what will happen to Stannis will make it clear? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 hours ago, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

That face I make when I see "Special Snowflake"

So, you don't think he's special? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Why do Jon need to have everything and what is the issue with people who think everything is about him and that he must be soooo very special all the time?

He has already received his magical sword and his magical animal (with magical powers) and his goofy sidekicks, who are loyal and passive towards him,  and his commandership (most of these things he get pretty easy) and his hidden destiny and (most likely) his extra live(s) so he can survive his stabbing. Then in addition to this he gets, in the three first books, a "get out of jail free card" so he never suffer for any consequences from the choices he makes - like a very special plot armour where the world adapts toward him, protecting him from bad stuff when he stands up for "what´s right". And now you want Jon to have the biggest dragon because you think he is the biggest hero? What the hell is wrong with you? At least Daenerys suffers for the stuff she gets. 

An entire storyarc is already about him, but noooo - EVERYTHING needs to be related to him and his story should according to some be the only one that matters, which the other characters gladly lining up to form his B-team, complementing his specialness etc and then, somehow, the war against the Others are the only struggle that matters because how else could he be so special. 

What kind of story do you think you are reading? Havn´t you learned anything after Robbs demise and after Eddards? Or maybe what will happen to Stannis will make it clear? 

That's why I think The George will have no trouble offing Daenerys. 

[Little Lark]

Based on what we know about dragons, I don't think it makes sense to speculate about who a dragon was meant for but instead who was meant to ride the dragon.

Dany tells us (I think in ACoK) that she will only ever ride one of her dragons. A dragon may have several riders during the course of its life but a rider will only ever mount one dragon.

At this point in the story, regardless of whether or not you think Dany and Drogon are meant for each other, we can say with some certainty that Dany won't be riding either of her other dragons. Furthermore, I'm not sure whether dragons will accept a new rider while the old rider is still alive so for the OP's theory to work, Dany may have to die before Jon can ride Drogon.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, you don't think he's special? 

I do think he's special then again I think they are all special. And I don't feel like they are all wish fulfillment special. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is actually a very counter-intuitive interpretation. Dany's chapters in AGoT are both very self-contained (George once published them as an independent novella called 'The Blood of the Dragon') and the dream is actually literally a prophetic dream about her hatching the dragon eggs later on.

Exactly, thank you.  There is no question about who Drogon belongs to, Dany and only Dany til one of them dies.

[Tianzi]

Well, Drogon is named after Dany's husband, so it would be narratively awkward if, say Jon Snow mounted him.
 

[oopeed]

On 30/4/2016 at 2:17 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Dany bonding with Drogon is like Jon bonding with Ghost.  Not everything comes at once and just like he has no one to teach him how to be a warg she has no one to teach her how to be a dragonrider.

There is a great deal in the books about how Drogon is the most dominant of the three dragons and how Dany specifically interacts more with him than the other dragons.  This is all before the first flight which seems to put the issue beyond doubt.  Add the fact that he is named after her husband and a dragon forms a bond with their rider that lasts to that rider's death then, yes, it looks like GRRM is telling us Drogon is really meant for Daenerys.

This.

Another well known piece of dragon lore is that they don't take on any other riders; Aegon with all his prowess would never dare riding Vhagar or Meraxes since they were bonded to Rhaenys and Visenya. So I don't see Drogon accepting another rider before Dany dies.

Also Dragons ain't pets, nor domesticated creatures like horses or dogs that learn to obey the whims of their masters. Dragons also have a will of their own and are unruly creatures by nature. They burn and devour things, so you can't expect them to just grow used to their rider after just one flight.

Also, Jon already has Ghost. Their first encounter (the lone direwolf separated from his litter) was highly symbolic of Jon's character while none of the dragons really match his personality. Yes, the wolf may lack the flair of a winged dragon, but reflects the values of the north in Jon.

[Lost Melnibonean]

40 minutes ago, The Great and Mighty Poo said:

I do think he's special then again I think they are all special. And I don't feel like they are all wish fulfillment special. 

I love all the characters too. Even though I believe The George's main protagonist is Jon Snow, I could list at least a dozen characters I find more interesting. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

28 minutes ago, Tianzi said:

Well, Drogon is named after Dany's husband, so it would be narratively awkward if, say Jon Snow mounted him.
 

I disagree. Drogon is the stallion that mounts the world, and Jon is the prince that was promised. Dude just needs his sword to catch fire like Beric's.