The Theory of Rhaegars Rubies

[J. Stargaryen]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Sorry I didn't knew about it

No worries.

[DarkSister1001]

3 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

There were a few people who contributed to that discussion, including @Lady Gwynhyfvar and @FrozenFire3. @Consigliere suggested an alternative much later that I think makes more sense, though. Since the idea is that Rhaegar's rubies are referring to his family via "blood," Consigliere subtracted Rhaegar and Rhaego, and added Aerys and Rhaella in their place. In the case of Rhaegar, it probably doesn't make sense to include him in a list of his own family. Also, TWoIaF told us that Aerys and Rhaella had a number of children who lived at least as much as Rhaego did, so it no longer made sense to include him in that list, either.

So, the updated list is:

1. Aerys

2. Rhaella

3. Viserys

4. Rhaenys

5. Aegon

6. Daenerys

7. Jon Snow

It's of course possible that the seventh ruby just refers to something else, like the Stranger for example, but I still like this theory.

 

Any particular reason to omit Maester Aemon?

[J. Stargaryen]

Just now, DarkSister1001 said:

Any particular reason to omit Maester Aemon?

Rhaegar's (immediate) family.

[DarkSister1001]

Just now, J. Stargaryen said:

Rhaegar's (immediate) family.

Gotchya. 

[hiemal]

6 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

There were a few people who contributed to that discussion, including @Lady Gwynhyfvar and @FrozenFire3. @Consigliere suggested an alternative much later that I think makes more sense, though. Since the idea is that Rhaegar's rubies are referring to his family via "blood," Consigliere subtracted Rhaegar and Rhaego, and added Aerys and Rhaella in their place. In the case of Rhaegar, it probably doesn't make sense to include him in a list of his own family. Also, TWoIaF told us that Aerys and Rhaella had a number of children who lived at least as much as Rhaego did, so it no longer made sense to include him in that list, either.

So, the updated list is:

1. Aerys

2. Rhaella

3. Viserys

4. Rhaenys

5. Aegon

6. Daenerys

7. Jon Snow

It's of course possible that the seventh ruby just refers to something else, like the Stranger for example, but I still like this theory.

 

It certainly makes Elder Brother's line about waiting for that seventh ruby so much more portentous (was Jon already dead by that time? I guess that would make Dany 7. though)...

 

[J. Stargaryen]

11 minutes ago, hiemal said:

It certainly makes Elder Brother's line about waiting for that seventh ruby so much more portentous (was Jon already dead by that time? I guess that would make Dany 7. though)...

 

In order of birth, yes. But people already know that Daenerys of House Targaryen exists. But, there is a seventh member of Rhaegar's immediate family who remains undiscovered.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

The seven rubies is in honor of the seven gods .

[hiemal]

10 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

In order of birth, yes. But people already know that Daenerys of House Targaryen exists. But, there is a seventh member of Rhaegar's immediate family who remains undiscovered.

Good point. I was implying switching Dany and Jon to reflect order of death, but of course that ignores the preceding rubies. I think that would be: Rhaella, Aerys, Rhaenys, Aegon, Viserys, Jon, Dany (still to come)?

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

There are a huge amount of body switching, baby swaping and people impersonating others confirmed stories in ASOIF.

The major problem I have with Rhaegar not being on the Trident and therefore not being dead is...

What the hell has he been doing this hole time?

I don't think he is the kind to sit back and watch, or forget everything and leave.

 

I do think that Rhaegar might have cheated at the Tourney of Harrenhall and that he somehow knew about Lyanna or planned the hole thing ahead of time.

[J. Stargaryen]

On 5/29/2016 at 5:18 PM, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

There are a huge amount of body switching, baby swaping and people impersonating others confirmed stories in ASOIF.

The major problem I have with Rhaegar not being on the Trident and therefore not being dead is...

What the hell has he been doing this hole time?

I don't think he is the kind to sit back and watch, or forget everything and leave.

 

I do think that Rhaegar might have cheated at the Tourney of Harrenhall and that he somehow knew about Lyanna or planned the hole thing ahead of time.

Nah. If you look at Rhaegar's known jousting record pre-HH, he had only lost twice. Both times in the finals, too. Once each to Dayne and Selmy. He had also beaten each of them once, btw. He was already arguably the best jouster in the 7K prior to HH, he just hadn't managed to defeat both Selmy and Dayne in the same tourney.

[Aegon VII]

On June 5, 2016 at 10:07 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

Nah. If you look at Rhaegar's known jousting record pre-HH, he had only lost twice. Both times in the finals, too. Once each to Dayne and Selmy. He had also beaten each of them once, btw. He was already arguably the best jouster in the 7K prior to HH, he just hadn't managed to defeat both Selmy and Dayne in the same tourney.

Good to learn about his jousting record. I've learned so much from your posts through the years J Star that I am eternally in your debt, so thank you very much!

 

I think whether or not Rhaegar cheated in this joust is  incredibly crucial to understanding the story so I have been debating it a lot recently. If Rhaegar did cheat, it supports the idea that he had was trying to fulfill a prophecy from the very beginning. He also needed to learn how to cheat, so it suggests that he has learned information that most people don't know, perhaps mystical glamours. ( I know cheating isn't necessarily a glamour, but people who are glamoured have been described as looking weird/shifting to other people, which could make hitting someone in a joust really difficult) We see BR using glamours in Dunk n Egg, so we have seen a targ interested in prophecy learn skills like this. Rhaegar even has a scarlet plume of silk while he rides, BR's main color. GRRM makes a point to note that he was wearing the same armor he would die in, with all the rubies. I believe if Rhaegar cheated at Harrenhal, it was with the assistance of the rubies. We're told it's the same armor he died in to suggest that his death on the trident could have had a glamour involved as well. And I think this ultimately leads me down the Mance is Rhaegar path. 

Alternately, if he didn't cheat, the rubies in his armor weren't special, and he did die on the trident. 

[Aegon VII]

Also, we have Loras cheating in the King's Landing Tourney. There are so many parallels between the two, I view this as strong evidence supporting Rhaegar cheating.

 

A counter argument to that would be that there are many times people try to force prophecy, perhaps Loras had to cheat because he's not the true prophecy, whereas Rhaegar didn't need to cheat because he is the genuine prophecy. But I view them both cheating as more likely.

[J. Stargaryen]

8 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Good to learn about his jousting record. I've learned so much from your posts through the years J Star that I am eternally in your debt, so thank you very much!

7 hours ago, Aegon VII said:

Also, we have Loras cheating in the King's Landing Tourney. There are so many parallels between the two, I view this as strong evidence supporting Rhaegar cheating.

I wouldn't go as far as to call it cheating. Ser Barristan described it by saying: "There is small honor in tricks." It's not as if Ser Loras was rigging matches, like they did for Daemon II Blackfyre at Whitewalls.

I really don't think Rhaegar cheated at HH. Nor do I think he glamoured himself at any time. If you look at his known jousting results, he appears to have been one of three superior jousters in the 7K, along with Selmy and Dayne. It just so happens that he was unable to defeat both men in the same tournament until HH, when he might have been more motivated to win than usual. Partially by a desire to crown Lyanna the QoLaB, as well as the political undertones of that tourney.

[purple-eyes]

22 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I wouldn't go as far as to call it cheating. Ser Barristan described it by saying: "There is small honor in tricks." It's not as if Ser Loras was rigging matches, like they did for Daemon II Blackfyre at Whitewalls.

I really don't think Rhaegar cheated at HH. Nor do I think he glamoured himself at any time. If you look at his known jousting results, he appears to have been one of three superior jousters in the 7K, along with Selmy and Dayne. It just so happens that he was unable to defeat both men in the same tournament until HH, when he might have been more motivated to win than usual. Partially by a desire to crown Lyanna the QoLaB, as well as the political undertones of that tourney.

I highly support that Rhaegar cheated.

Barristan said if he were a better knight.....not a better jouster. If he lost to Rhaegar fair and square, why he was haunted through his whole life about Ashara? If he tried his best but he can not win Rhaegar, then he did not need to regret and felt that guilty. But if he intentionally made a dive and he could have win, that feeling of guilty must be overwhelming.

I bet Barristan and Dayne did not try their best because they wanted to make sure Rhaegar can win in order to improve his public image to help his plan against Aerys (and according to the world book this indeed worked until he could not keep it in his pants and crowned Lyanna).

 

 

[Winter Rose Crown]

I think the rubies were meant to represent the important pieces in play in Rhaegar's family to bring about the prophecy. What brought about the chain of events? Running off with Lyanna. So the important people/pieces are:

Rhaegar

Ella

Aegon

Rhaenys

Lyanna

Jon

And #7 is.... Still waiting to be seen? Maybe one of the Jon twin theories? Maybe Jon/Aegon have a kid? Idk, just thinking "out loud".

[J. Stargaryen]

6 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

I highly support that Rhaegar cheated.

Barristan said if he were a better knight.....not a better jouster. If he lost to Rhaegar fair and square, why he was haunted through his whole life about Ashara? If he tried his best but he can not win Rhaegar, then he did not need to regret and felt that guilty. But if he intentionally made a dive and he could have win, that feeling of guilty must be overwhelming.

I bet Barristan and Dayne did not try their best because they wanted to make sure Rhaegar can win in order to improve his public image to help his plan against Aerys (and according to the world book this indeed worked until he could not keep it in his pants and crowned Lyanna).

Dayne and Selmy throwing their matches does not mean that Rhaegar cheated. Unless he ordered them to, but that doesn't appear to be what you're saying. Or am I mistaken, and you mean that Rhaegar, Dayne and Selmy plotted to help the prince win the joust?

[purple-eyes]

27 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Dayne and Selmy throwing their matches does not mean that Rhaegar cheated. Unless he ordered them to, but that doesn't appear to be what you're saying. Or am I mistaken, and you mean that Rhaegar, Dayne and Selmy plotted to help the prince win the joust?

yeah, rhaegar must have helpers to plot this with him. arthur and whent surely are there. it is a dangerous move and they surely need all the advantage. they might inform Selmy that rhaegar must win without leaking too much and considering howcrazy aerys is, i can see Selmy said yes. 

[J. Stargaryen]

33 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

yeah, rhaegar must have helpers to plot this with him. arthur and whent surely are there. it is a dangerous move and they surely need all the advantage. they might inform Selmy that rhaegar must win without leaking too much and considering howcrazy aerys is, i can see Selmy said yes. 

Except that Selmy makes it seem like he was left out of the HH plotting in The Kingbreaker:

Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.
The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there.
If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty …

While the bold likely refers to the pre-tourney plotting, Ser Barristan thinks that HH is proof that Rhaegar never trusted him as he trusted Dayne. Which would be difficult to reconcile with your argument. That would have Rhaegar trusting Selmy and Dayne with the same task, as part of the same plot. After all, if HH is proof that Rhaegar trusted him less than AD, HH shouldn't also be the one time he trusted them equally. It's a contradiction.

[Aegon VII]

44 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Except that Selmy makes it seem like he was left out of the HH plotting in The Kingbreaker:

Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty …

While the bold likely refers to the pre-tourney plotting, Ser Barristan thinks that HH is proof that Rhaegar never trusted him as he trusted Dayne. Which would be difficult to reconcile with your argument. That would have Rhaegar trusting Selmy and Dayne with the same task, as part of the same plot. After all, if HH is proof that Rhaegar trusted him less than AD, HH shouldn't also be the one time he trusted them equally. It's a contradiction.

I question whether the thing Rhaegar trusted Dayne with was cheating in the joust. It's one thing for Rhaegar to cheat, he is a targ. His honor has to take a backseat to him saving the realm. Similar to BR killing his relative under guest right, arguably. But Dayne and Selmy do not get to be ubermenchs like the targs. They are the ideals of knighthood and chivalry. Probably the truest two knights we've been introduced to in the theory. Which means it is extremely against their nature to throw a joust, rather than simply not enlist.

 

Barristans "if I had been a better knight" passage, would agree with him doing something against his nature. As Purple Eyes pointed out, Selmy says knight instead of Jouster, which does support him cheating as well. However, as J star mentioned, it does not make sense to highlight that Dayne was in the loop and Selmy wasn't, if he and Selmy both did the same thing. Also, knight is just a much more common word than Jouster, so Selmy could have used the words interchangeably.

 

i don't see Rhaegar asking Dayne or Selmy to cheat, their too good. He very well could have included Dayne in another aspect that did not compromise his honor though, any ideas?

 

and finally, I find myself thinking of a knights tale.  The regular Knights allow the royal guy to win, but since the main guy has honor, he tries his hardest and the Royal guy appreciates it. Rhaegar is said to have only regularly lost to Selmy and Dayne. I view it more likely that the other Knights would let Rhaegar win, while Selmy and Dayne were too honorable not to try their hardest. Perhaps there's an example in dunk n egg of Knights going easy on the royalty.

[purple-eyes]

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Except that Selmy makes it seem like he was left out of the HH plotting in The Kingbreaker:

Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.
The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there.
If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty …

While the bold likely refers to the pre-tourney plotting, Ser Barristan thinks that HH is proof that Rhaegar never trusted him as he trusted Dayne. Which would be difficult to reconcile with your argument. That would have Rhaegar trusting Selmy and Dayne with the same task, as part of the same plot. After all, if HH is proof that Rhaegar trusted him less than AD, HH shouldn't also be the one time he trusted them equally. It's a contradiction.

the thing is, whent and arthur did much more for rhaegar than just making a dive. like in the whitewall tourney, arthur and whent could also adjust the list so that arthur can get rid of those great jousters for rhaegar and make him meet easy targets, to save his energy at least.