Margaery is playing everyone, right?

[Maya Stone]

10 minutes ago, Ingelheim said:

That's what I think as well. The HS is pretending everything. He may even know Marg is faking it. He just needed Marg to get the Crown on its knees. He controls Tommen now. 

Jaime is off to the Riverlands, Cersei is alone, and the Faith Militant is stronger than ever. The HS played well.

Exactly. Marg is also smart enough to know she can't fool the HS, that's why I think they probably planned this together

[Visenya the Dragon]

1 hour ago, Red Tiger said:

.....WOW

On another note.

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With the crown now following the Faith, I wonder if the Faith will have Loras fight The Mountain.

 

I sure hope not. It will be the end for Loras. It will be the Hound for sure.

[Red Tiger]

31 minutes ago, Visenya the Dragon said:

I sure hope not. It will be the end for Loras. It will be the Hound for sure.

Yeah that's my bet too, but I could see D&D do this for the sake of mindless plot twist.

[Xarkar]

Loras has been locked up for a while.

He is in no shape to fight The Mountain.  He wasnt even in shape to fight him before hand.  Sure the mountain may have got the jump on him the first time, but even in a fair fight I dont see him winning.

 

Brienne beat Loras relativity easy.

Brienne beat the hound in what was a pretty even fight (except the hound was already seriously injured)

Oberyn schooled the Mountain.  If he hadnt been playing with him he would have killed the mountain much faster.   But then again, Oberyn was an amazing fighter.

Out of the people alive today, not many can face the mountain 1v1.  (Maybe Daario could).  If the Hound is alive, and healed he would be a very good bet to win.

 

[Perrin Stark]

Marg is not only playing the HS, but she is also playing Cersei by turning Tommen into a follower. Margery despises Cersei and decided that the best way to get back at her was to put Tommen on a religious path. This will drive Cersei mad and force her to attempt an assassination, thus eliminating the HS and Cersei from the power struggle. 

[SamuelVimes]

10 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

The thing that really confuses me is Margaery's walk of atonement. We don't know if she confessed and HS doesn't mention it in his little speech, he just says that she lied. Cersei had to confess to be able to do the walk. While Margaery refuses repeatedly to confess. And Cersei had her head shaved which Margaery doesn't. So either HS is too merciful to Margaery (because he knows thanks to Olyvar that she lied). Or can it be that in order to save herself and Loras that Margaery made a deal with HS that he would let her go and in return she would convert Tommen to the faith? And then she plans to turn on HS right away?

 

6 hours ago, ummester said:

I don't see the HS as a misogynist or a homophobe - he just adheres to a faith that makes those distinctions. He's always on about everyone being equal in the eyes of the 7 and his actions are only based on their rules, not his - I don't think he is personally getting any gratification from making Cersie walk naked or putting Loras in a cell.

Besides, Loras was locked up for lying, not being gay. He was asked if he was gay and denied it - if he admitted it, he probably wouldn't have been locked up - may have just had to take some lashes or something but lying to the Gods was the worse sin.

I reckon the HS is fucked though, coz Margery is wrapping him around her little finger and she's dangerous.

The HS is in some ways genuinely on the side of the poor--more so than probably anyone else (not like that's hard)--and that makes him sympathetic in some ways, because honestly, a good dose of class warfare might do King's Landing a world of good. The misogyny and homophobia, those are indeed part of the faith, and the HS is very good at pretending like he's just being a tool of the gods and none of this is his choice. But for all that he might claim Loras is in jail for lying, the real reason is DEFINITELY his being gay; otherwise, Jaime would be in jail too, right? Especially after his conversation with the Sparrow an ep or two ago. Jaime is guilty of every sin Cersei's guilty of; he's guilty of just as much as Loras is. And yet, they're in jail and he's not--that's misogyny and homophobia at work, even while the HS claims that's totally not what it is. 

Back to class warfare - I think the HS is on the side of the poor for two very different reasons. One is that he really believes they're getting a raw deal, and that's the side of him we keep seeing. But the other reason he's on their side is that they are a giant, untapped source of power just lying there waiting for someone to take advantage of their power, and that's the side of the HS that we're starting to see more clearly. He may well be fairly holy and on the side of the poor, but he's also a power player in his own right, using the power of the people in ways that the nobility (perhaps with the exception of Margaery) don't have the imagination for. 

The HS's multiple motivations were hinted at in the conversation with Jaime (where Jaime was basically asking why Cersei was imprisoned & had to atone, while he didn't; the reason for that is not about religion or righteousness, but about sexism and personal popularity). We got a stronger hint of it with him letting Margaery out of her walk--again, that's not about righteousness, but about Margaery's personal popularity with the proletariat, and because she offered him something he wanted, which was power over the king. (Or so he thinks...) All the stuff in Neravanin's quote up there, that's the stuff we're supposed to be thinking about right now because we're starting to see much more clearly that the HS, for all his holiness, is also a hypocrite. 

 

10 hours ago, The Imp slap said:

I have been thinking about it for a long time, but she's a much bigger player than expected. She is extremely cunning and good-hearted at the same time. I could see her become queen of Westeros (married to Jon) when it's all said and done. 

I was thinking that, in a VERY different world, she and Dany would be the power couple extraordinaire.

 

8 hours ago, Ludo Kressh said:

She's definitely playing, but Tommen's completely oblivious. Hell, he asked his mother last episode if she hated Margery like he had no idea up to that point. It will be a showdown between the Tyrells, Lannisters and the Faith and Tommen's going to get caught in the crossfire. And Cersei will go completely batshit insane.

Yeah, Tommen has not a damn clue, nor do the Lannisters or the other Tyrells, yet. She was playing Tommen and the unseen-but-presumably-listening HS like a harp in that scene.

I think that the Queen of Thorns may suspect that Margaery is playing a long con--after all, she knows the kind of granddaughter she's raised--but she's definitely not going to let the Lannisters in on that fact, which is why she said that the HS had just beaten them. I'm sure Margaery and the QoT will get a chance to chat very soon--after all, she's out of prison now, and smart as she is she knows her first order of business has GOT to be to see the other very smart person who's on her side. Those two together ought to be nearly unstoppable. 

 

7 hours ago, KhaleesiButton said:

I think she cares about Loras more than she cares about being queen. I feel like she did this after she saw how bad off he was and is doing what she can to save him.

I think this is a huge part of what makes Margaery sympathetic (well, to me anyway). She is not only devoted to her family but she also really loves Loras. (Why devotion vs. love matters: Tywin Lannister was absolutely devoted to his House and thus family, but I would not say he loved any of them. Cersei is at her most human/sympathetic when you see her love for her children rather than just her family devotion.) She thinks it's up to her to save him (and it might be), so she's going to do whatever she has to in order to get him out.

That said, she is *definitely* also someone who wants to be Queen. She loves power. And she's had a fantastic coach in her grandmother, who's made sure that she understands how women wield power in Westeros. Cersei's never made her peace with that--she wants to rule in her own name (which, from a modern perspective, is completely understandable!). Margaery doesn't care whether she rules in her own name or via her control over the one who's sitting on the throne, and we've seen her with three different kings now, manipulating them all in pretty masterful ways. (Not that it's hard to manipulate poor naive Tommen.) 

[Jairion Lannister]

Oh yeah, Margaery's playing a complex game of some sort here. Probably trying to fool Tommen to take him further away from his parents.

[ummester]

Loras needs to get burnt, like he did in the books. His main sin is vanity and everyone reaps what they sow, usually with gruesome irony, in this story - perhaps the wildfire?

Pretty sure the Hound will square off against the Mountain now and the Mountain will win - crush another head. Think about it - Sandor finally put down his swords and found peace with the faith but the faith will call him back to arms - it can't end well for Sandor, he should not have picked up a sword again for anyone.

[goomba]

3 hours ago, ummester said:

Pretty sure the Hound will square off against the Mountain now and the Mountain will win - crush another head. Think about it - Sandor finally put down his swords and found peace with the faith but the faith will call him back to arms - it can't end well for Sandor, he should not have picked up a sword again for anyone.

You don't like Sandor's chances?

He has 2/3rd's of Mountains strength with twice the speed and twice the skill  

[ummester]

8 minutes ago, goomba said:

You don't like Sandor's chances?

He has 2/3rd's of Mountains strength with twice the speed and twice the skill  

The Mountain is already some kind of reanimated corpse - I don't think he will go down easy and the reanimation made him even stronger and more aggressive.

Also, I would argue that the Viper was a more skilful fighter then the Hound and the Mountain crushed the Viper.

Don't get me wrong, I like Sandor, he's one of my favourite characters but I don't think he can beat the Mountain and I think going back into the fray will be the wrong choice for him. He found peace, he started to let it all go - I think him trying to resolve it any way other than peacefully digging graves will be a mistake.

[servethe_Realm]

9 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

Re Margaery:   An expression of surprise crosses her face when she sees Jaime and the Tyrell army. Then, if I had to interpret, her next look is one of satisfaction, immediately followed by a look of determination.  [nice acting on the part of Dormer]

I interpreted all this as -- I did not know they were coming, how great for me, but I have no idea how this will pan out so I am sticking with my plan A.  And she did. 

I agree, she is playing everyone and she has deniability on both ends.  She did not know the army was coming, and she did not know Tommen was becoming a believer.   

Yep, I noticed her little look of surprise too. Margaery figured out quick that she wouldn't be able to charm HS with her feminine wiles, and so figured out another way to trick him into trusting her by becoming "enlightened". HS definitely has something else up his sleeve, though. Just not sure what at this point. And wowza to that Tommen spoiler. That'll be some hella drama

[grufolo]

18 hours ago, kg1982 said:

I dunno.  Perhaps because the High Sparrow is a religious zealot and a misogynist who thinks that it is cool to make women do naked slut walks for atonement and to imprison people for being gay and having sex. 

That.

And being someone who administers religious justice to people who don't care about the Gods.

And being a master manipulator (Littlefinger level)

[RedShirt47]

11 hours ago, Perrin Stark said:

Marg is not only playing the HS, but she is also playing Cersei by turning Tommen into a follower. Margery despises Cersei and decided that the best way to get back at her was to put Tommen on a religious path. This will drive Cersei mad and force her to attempt an assassination, thus eliminating the HS and Cersei from the power struggle. 

I agree. Marg is turning the tables on Cersei.

Cersei empowered the Faith as a way to get Margery. Now Margery is using this empowered Faith to get back at Cersei. She already had reasonable control over Tommen, but for Cersei blocking her at every turn. She tried to get Tommen to send Cersei to Casterly Rock and he did go along with it but Cersei fought back. Now Marg hopes that the Faith will remove Cersei from the picture and she can get on with being Queen.

I don't think the HS is aware he's being played. He's not a shrewd politician. His faith leads him to see good in people when they atone. Margery had always been quite good with the poor, so she had a good image for the Faith, just a little tarnished by her dealings with the nobility. So it wouldn't be hard for them to think she embraced the Faith now.

[House Cambodia]

23 minutes ago, RedShirt47 said:

 

12 hours ago, Perrin Stark said:

Marg is not only playing the HS, but she is also playing Cersei by turning Tommen into a follower. Margery despises Cersei and decided that the best way to get back at her was to put Tommen on a religious path. This will drive Cersei mad and force her to attempt an assassination, thus eliminating the HS and Cersei from the power struggle. 

I agree. Marg is turning the tables on Cersei.

 

Agree with all of that. The HS is not that smart. But you just don't get the better of Cercei. You just DON'T. Cercei will have her killed, not thinking through the effect that will have on Tommen. As I've said before, result = everybody dies!

[Zering]

7 hours ago, ummester said:

The Mountain is already some kind of reanimated corpse - I don't think he will go down easy and the reanimation made him even stronger and more aggressive.

Also, I would argue that the Viper was a more skilful fighter then the Hound and the Mountain crushed the Viper.

Don't get me wrong, I like Sandor, he's one of my favourite characters but I don't think he can beat the Mountain and I think going back into the fray will be the wrong choice for him. He found peace, he started to let it all go - I think him trying to resolve it any way other than peacefully digging graves will be a mistake.

There can be no peace for Sandor Clegane until he kills his brother.

[ummester]

3 minutes ago, Zering said:

There can be no peace for Sandor Clegane until he kills his brother.

That is where you fail young padwan - there is more peace in acceptance and forgiveness than revenge, even if Sandor wins, revenge will lead him to a hollow place. Moving on mentally is the only way his mind can rest.

[DMC]

I haven't read this whole thread, but from skimming the last page, I think it's important to emphasize the the HS still has Loras as a "stick" (no pun intended) to keep Margaery in line.  Pretty sure he's well aware Marge's "conversion" is not sincere, and the deal is she has to continue to radicalize Tommen.  Perhaps stripping Jaime of his white cloak and sending him away was a request (although this obviously serves Margaery's purposes as well).  The question is, how long can Loras be used as tool for compliance before Olenna and Marge herself demand his release...

[Neds Secret]

13 hours ago, Xarkar said:

Loras has been locked up for a while.

He is in no shape to fight The Mountain.  He wasnt even in shape to fight him before hand.  Sure the mountain may have got the jump on him the first time, but even in a fair fight I dont see him winning.

 

Brienne beat Loras relativity easy.

Brienne beat the hound in what was a pretty even fight (except the hound was already seriously injured)

Oberyn schooled the Mountain.  If he hadnt been playing with him he would have killed the mountain much faster.   But then again, Oberyn was an amazing fighter.

Out of the people alive today, not many can face the mountain 1v1.  (Maybe Daario could).  If the Hound is alive, and healed he would be a very good bet to win.

 

Book Loras would hand the mountain his new head back to him, Loras martial ability is world class, possibly the most complete Knight still alive in the world! 

[princess_snow]

20 hours ago, King Edd of House Tollet said:

Margaery has learn well from her grandma, she is indeed a top Player of the Game

At first it seemed to me that the High Sparrow outmatched everyone there, but in fact he was being played by Margaery

The biggest indication here to me is Jaime being sent off to Riverrun and stripped off his position in the Kingsguard. It's a move that weakens the Lannisters

In one stroke, Margaery was freed from the HS, got o hold on Tommen, and got rid of a powerful Lannister in the capital

YES ! This is exactly what I think. She is not to be underestimated. What will she do to Cersei is my next question ?! 

[Trollosi]

The High Sparrow's end game is the Iron Throne. Now that Margaery & Tommen are with him, he will get Loras to be the Faith's champ to fight the Mountain:

1. If Loras wins, Cersei will be gone. Tommen will be his pawn.
2. Most likely scenario: the Mountain wins, Loras dies a horrible death. Margaery will either commit suicide or divorce Tommen. Tommen will commit suicide. Big fights between the Lannisters and the Tyrells.

So either way, HS wins without lifting a finger.

Cersei will then go berserk for losing her son and by this time she will probably hear about Sansa/Jon winning & Danny's invasion. She'll be paranoid about the frog's prophecy and blow up King's Landing with the Wildfire (as seen in Bran's).