Red Tiger Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 2 hours ago, watcher of the night said: Tell that to the sandsnakes, they seem to be fine in Dorne. You are truly using Dorne as an example of good writing and internal consistency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfin Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 If Jon is the hero of the show which it seems like he is to me, then he CAN'T be saved by LF and the Vale. The tide has to be switched over and he needs to be winning the battle by the time LF rides in. Only possible way I would accept LF wins the battle is if soon after the North actually remembers and all the Northern houses crush the Vale or at least kill LF. We will see on Sunday but damn, we can't have LF win this shit. That would just leave a sour taste in my mouth and I assume a lot of other fans. My 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watcher of the night Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 3 hours ago, Red Tiger said: You are truly using Dorne as an example of good writing and internal consistency? No I am using Dorne to illustrate the lack of good writing and internal consistency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 9 hours ago, watcher of the night said: That this is an unrelaistic and plotdriven engagement. Ramsay driven engagement. (Although, Ramsay is in truth a pot device.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 9 hours ago, Sir Matthis Light said: So far in the Story, T.V., and We don't know if R married L, but I'm sure we'll find out And, there must be a reason for the Kingsguard to remain at the tower, and fight to the death to protect its contents. We have that from the show, but it is a very subtle point, that not many (in my experience) pick up on at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya Targaryen Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 1 hour ago, bfin said: If Jon is the hero of the show which it seems like he is to me, then he CAN'T be saved by LF and the Vale. The tide has to be switched over and he needs to be winning the battle by the time LF rides in. Only possible way I would accept LF wins the battle is if soon after the North actually remembers and all the Northern houses crush the Vale or at least kill LF. We will see on Sunday but damn, we can't have LF win this shit. That would just leave a sour taste in my mouth and I assume a lot of other fans. My 2 cents I honestly don't expect him to win (that would be unrealistic, that the HERO wins against all odds), just to get enough time until the Vale arrives to save the day (especially if he knows they re coming). LF may expect to gain some support or reward then, and at this point I think he will be surprised to see that the North actually supports the bastard son of Ned rather than the trueborn Sansa. If Sansa is clever, she may also encourage them to do so, as it would lessen LF's influence over the North, and Sansa couldn't be used as a pawn that easily to gain the North with a strong Stark Lord in power. But Jon definitely needs to do something impressive. I expect him to get his "fire" back during the fight. Maybe a 1 on 1 vs Ramsay would do the trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowisnobastard Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 52 minutes ago, Arya Targaryen said: I honestly don't expect him to win (that would be unrealistic, that the HERO wins against all odds), just to get enough time until the Vale arrives to save the day (especially if he knows they re coming). LF may expect to gain some support or reward then, and at this point I think he will be surprised to see that the North actually supports the bastard son of Ned rather than the trueborn Sansa. If Sansa is clever, she may also encourage them to do so, as it would lessen LF's influence over the North, and Sansa couldn't be used as a pawn that easily to gain the North with a strong Stark Lord in power. But Jon definitely needs to do something impressive. I expect him to get his "fire" back during the fight. Maybe a 1 on 1 vs Ramsay would do the trick. The night is dark and full of Mojo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kman2544 Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 4 hours ago, bfin said: If Jon is the hero of the show which it seems like he is to me, then he CAN'T be saved by LF and the Vale. The tide has to be switched over and he needs to be winning the battle by the time LF rides in. Only possible way I would accept LF wins the battle is if soon after the North actually remembers and all the Northern houses crush the Vale or at least kill LF. We will see on Sunday but damn, we can't have LF win this shit. That would just leave a sour taste in my mouth and I assume a lot of other fans. My 2 cents So why cant Jon and his army be saved by LF? I mean Jon was already saved by Stannis and that guy burned his own daughter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Enshugar Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Of course LF is going to save Jon+Sansa. The trailer pretty much spells it out, showing the poorly organized rabble led by Jon against the Bolton troops. Someone has to save them at the last minute and there's noone else around. I think I'm actually rooting for Ramsay right now. He seems to be the only commander in Westeros capable of organizing his men in an actual formation. Between his superior battle skills, his shrewd diplomacy (remember, he was able to unite all the major houses of the North, while Starks get the scraps) and his 20 good men, he's clearly the best chance against the Night King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfin Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 47 minutes ago, Kman2544 said: So why cant Jon and his army be saved by LF? I mean Jon was already saved by Stannis and that guy burned his own daughter Jon was resurrected from the dead. Times are different now. You don't bring back the hero so someone else gets all the glory. I understand the Vale will be swooping in, I just feel like Jon can't be on the brink of a total loss when they arrive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrek Lannister Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 It'd be extremely lame if LF swooped in to save the day I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 12 hours ago, tugela said: The Umbers at least would have lost most of their fighting men at the Red Wedding. There is no way they are going to be able to produce that many men when the other houses only have a few hundred. What happened to the Karstarks isn't clear. Most likely the men themselves would have taken off after Robb cut their lords head off, but they would not have been able to go home because Moat Caolin was occupied by the Ironborn. Most likely they would have scattered in the riverlands becoming bandits or gone on their way as individuals. So the Karstarks probably only have a few hundred men as well. The only force that should have any substance are the Boltons. It is hard to image that they would have 5000+ men sitting in Winterfell though. The show has indicated that the Umbers and the Karstarks are meant to be substantial houses, so their forces would be meant to be very large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Louis II (KLII) Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 15 hours ago, JonisHenryTudor said: Marriage in the middle ages did not require jumps through several hoops. Just a witness. At any rate, point still stands. The north won't sit by ( at least I don't think) with two of Ned's successors standing against Ramsey and another held captive. R was already married. So the person that you were referring to would still be a bastard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Louis II (KLII) Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 7 hours ago, bfin said: If Jon is the hero of the show which it seems like he is to me, then he CAN'T be saved by LF and the Vale. The tide has to be switched over and he needs to be winning the battle by the time LF rides in. Only possible way I would accept LF wins the battle is if soon after the North actually remembers and all the Northern houses crush the Vale or at least kill LF. We will see on Sunday but damn, we can't have LF win this shit. That would just leave a sour taste in my mouth and I assume a lot of other fans. My 2 cents I am afraid you will be left with a sour taste and your mouth my friend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tugela Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Colonel Green said: The show has indicated that the Umbers and the Karstarks are meant to be substantial houses, so their forces would be meant to be very large. Substantial houses whose armies were decimated in Robbs war. They would have had to wait for the next generation to grow up again before getting back to strength. New recruits don't just pop out of no where. In fact, in the book Theon tells Stannis that the houses supporting Roose at Winterfell were comprised mostly of greybeards and green boys. Their prime fighting men were largely dead or lost. The Boltons are likely the only house in the North with a substantial body of experienced prime fighting men available. Which is why the other houses don't give them the finger. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tugela Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 2 hours ago, bfin said: Jon was resurrected from the dead. Times are different now. You don't bring back the hero so someone else gets all the glory. I understand the Vale will be swooping in, I just feel like Jon can't be on the brink of a total loss when they arrive If the preview is anything to go by, he is in deep deep trouble and losing. It looks like at the end that the Boltons have his force encircled with a shield wall and pikes, and are closing in for a massacre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tugela Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 7 hours ago, MtnLion said: And, there must be a reason for the Kingsguard to remain at the tower, and fight to the death to protect its contents. We have that from the show, but it is a very subtle point, that not many (in my experience) pick up on at all. My guess is that Lyanna and Ashara were there doing voodoo magic trying to birth dragons in flame. They were both teenagers, and they probably fell for Rhaegar's (he was an older guy) smooth talk about his cultish beliefs in prophecy. If you read the various descriptions of Rhaegar he is totally the sort of charismatic person who would lead some crazy messianic cult to "save" the world. Sort of like Charles Manson, with Lyanna and Ashara being the girls who worship every word he says. Manson, Jones Town, Waco....lots of examples of the Rhaegar personality in the modern world. No wonder the Starks were so enraged and demanded their daughter back! Who wouldn't, if their daughter/sister fell under the spell of a fruitcake like Rhaegar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Louis II (KLII) Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 I think you guys are forgetting that Rhaegar was married to Elia Martell before his other indiscretions happened... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakeWesterosGreatAgain Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 19 hours ago, Sir Matthis Light said: Jon's a Snow, so really the battle involves two true Starks and Jon.....The Geek in me wouldn't let this go XD I totally agree LF and VK come save the day and be the heroes...But I guess I shouldn't be surprised, this is the Game of Thrones. Actually, technically wouldn't he really be a "Sand" if R+L never got married? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonisHenryTudor Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 5 hours ago, King Louis II (KLII) said: R was already married. So the person that you were referring to would still be a bastard Polygamous marriages. This often caused civil wars under the Ottoman sultanates early on, but it soon became a regular occurrence in the major Muslim empires to see civil war break out between siblings. The result was usually the wholesale slaughter of every rival including and children, women, etc. The Ottomans rectified this (I think the 16th, early 17th century), but it did create a number of succession issues. 2 hours ago, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said: Actually, technically wouldn't he really be a "Sand" if R+L never got married? Regional. And we don't know if they were married or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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