Dothrakis in Westeros

[Destiny's Warrior]

1 minute ago, Terekhov said:

imo the bravado of a girl, not the will of a queen. Easy to say as conqueror, but a future ruler would feel differently.

True. She was living it up rough for some time in amongst some crazy folk. It does seems as though Tyrion's doing his bit to steer her away from the Targ madness, but how long can that last?

[Terekhov]

Hopefully long enough to use her dragons against the WWs, for Westeros' sake

Then again not ALL Targs were mad. Maybe she just has tinges of it from time to time.

[Zombies That Were Promised]

I know some groaned at the end scene of 6x06 where Dany gives yet another rousing speech but I actually liked it.  It gave me chills to hear her shout about tearing down the iron men in their stone huts and giving her the gift that Khal Drogo promised her before the Mother of Mountains.  It was a moment where it felt like things were coming together from way back in Season 1, and that's cool.  With the death toll on this show, Season 1 is... almost a completely different show than Season 6.  To have that connection from S1 to S6 felt like things were finally coming full circle.

[LastManStanding]

They seem like they are in her command. She probably said "hey, follow me, slay my enemies and that, but we aren't raping and pillaging Westeros". I mean they listened to Darrio and they attacked the Sons of the Harpys without raping them and lived in Meereen alright (that we know of). Just because people have a reputation, doesn't mean it will a) be exactly like that with no exaggeration and b ) never change. 

That being said, I think most will die in the fight against the white walkers. They will be fearsome and awesome in taking Westeros (though there isn't much of a fight to be had) but they will freeze and/or be ineffective against the real battle. Considering they are a sizeable hoarde, their best use would be against the reanimated bodies. 

[bfin]

8 hours ago, King Perkis said:

I'm not saying there isn't a logistical nightmare but the fact that the Dornish do just fine in the winter (they would be the closest group of Westerosis to compare the Dothraki too) and the fact that it is implied that Dany is landing in Dorne, I don't see them just dying in massive amounts. She left Daario in Meereen, so the idea of leaving some of her allies (Dotrhaki) in Dorne or in the southern parts of Westeros in order to avoid them dying by the cold isn't that far fetched, especially with Dorne and Tyrells as her allies now (ie two of the largest armies in Westeros at this point). Also, the Dotrhaki manage to cross the Narrow sea, so I don't see how they couldn't somewhat adapt to the cold.

Dorne is a civilized race. Dothraki aren't. No comparison 

[gotviewer]

11 hours ago, OrcusOfUndeath said:

Dothraki will be ineffectual in Westeros, especially during the winter. They are mounted warriors and 50k horses will all die in the harsh Westeros winter. They don't wear any armor and have never been in a cold climate of Westeros. Many will fall to illness. The ones who live will have very little time to adapt to fighting armored opponents while being on foot. 

I got a definite Persian Empire before Battle of Marathon feel from that closing Scene with all the ships.  (Danny being the losing side.)  Alternatively could think about as Spanish Armada versus Elizabeth I. Ironic for Stormborn to lose her fleet to a storm or iced up oceans.  Plus the above.

I still think Dany gets to Westeros with Tyrion and perhaps all her dragons but she will not have her armies and ships.  This sets up LF to broker a marriage with the Vale.  

Not sure what the Whitewalkers impact on story is going to be.  Simplest thing is they never come South of the Wall and above the wall is a sort of Hades, maybe some sort of Persephone compromise/problem.  But that would be another discussion thread.

[OrcusOfUndeath]

8 hours ago, King Perkis said:

I'm not saying there isn't a logistical nightmare but the fact that the Dornish do just fine in the winter (they would be the closest group of Westerosis to compare the Dothraki too) and the fact that it is implied that Dany is landing in Dorne, I don't see them just dying in massive amounts. She left Daario in Meereen, so the idea of leaving some of her allies (Dotrhaki) in Dorne or in the southern parts of Westeros in order to avoid them dying by the cold isn't that far fetched, especially with Dorne and Tyrells as her allies now (ie two of the largest armies in Westeros at this point). Also, the Dotrhaki manage to cross the Narrow sea, so I don't see how they couldn't somewhat adapt to the cold.

The reason why Dornish do well during winter is that winter usually doesn't reach them. And not to mention that the Dornish fighting style and lifestyle have almost nothing in common with the Dothraki. But this time its different. By all accounts this is going to be the worst winter since the Long Night. We can probably assume soon enough its going to be showing in all of Westeros, even though it usually doesn't because this winter is brought to us by - The Others themselves. In recent winters the Blackwater froze. They've been getting worse and worse. It will be snowing in King's landing by the first episode of the next season. The Reach is bound to be affected too, even though they rarely are, having in mind the nature of this winter. I do not doubt that by the end of the next season Dorne will be covered with snow as well. So, they will only get into the Reach to gather the remainder of the armies and they'll be met with freezing cold. This is when I believe the true nightmare for the Dothraki will begin.

Lets forget the winter for a second. Even getting the Dothraki through Dorne will be hell. If they land in Sunspear they'll have several hundred kilometers of desert to cross before they land in the Reach. Each Dothraki has a huge animal with him which has to be fed and watered daily. We have documented cases of for example Alexander the Great losing at least half and maybe even three quarters of his army after crossing the Gedrosian (semi)desert(and he had 30k people) and he fully planned to cross that desert. This is simply a logistical nightmare and nothing we've seen so far indicates Dany prepared for it. Also, Tyrells had a deal with the Lannisters about supplying the crown's armies and supporters, so their food stores can't be all that full, even though I don't think they are in great trouble. 70k additional soldiers (plus the local armies and support crews) are about to change that. And Tyrells organizing everything will raise too much of a suspicion about them siding with the Targaryens. So significant preparations can't be done in Westeros either.
 

In any case there's no way they are keeping their horses in Westeros. They'll get to Reach, maybe nibble on the some grass there, and that'll be the end of it. There are no massive steppes in Westeros like the Dothraki sea. There are swamps and mountains and and plains forests and deserts. All very unfavorable to the Dothraki who have specialized to fighting in the Dothraki sea and I think they'll be very ineffectual anywhere else for several reasons, some of which I already stated.

 

1. They won't be able to keep their horses for long. Soon enough they'll have to go on foot. This means a change of lifestyle and warfare for them in a middle of an all out war.

2. They are facing armored opponents with weapons that are ineffectual against armor.

3. They are arriving during the worst winter in the least 8000 years.

4. Potentially they first have to cross a desert.

5. The smallfolk won't take kindly to Dothraki screamers in their lands no matter what their lord tells them. They are less likely to help.

In conclusion I think Dany's ill prepared for the war to come and its gonna show in season 7.

 

 

[Hol Horse]

They'll die. Dothraki ain't got shit on snow and winter.

[King Perkis]

12 hours ago, OrcusOfUndeath said:

The reason why Dornish do well during winter is that winter usually doesn't reach them. And not to mention that the Dornish fighting style and lifestyle have almost nothing in common with the Dothraki. But this time its different. By all accounts this is going to be the worst winter since the Long Night. We can probably assume soon enough its going to be showing in all of Westeros, even though it usually doesn't because this winter is brought to us by - The Others themselves. In recent winters the Blackwater froze. They've been getting worse and worse. It will be snowing in King's landing by the first episode of the next season. The Reach is bound to be affected too, even though they rarely are, having in mind the nature of this winter. I do not doubt that by the end of the next season Dorne will be covered with snow as well. So, they will only get into the Reach to gather the remainder of the armies and they'll be met with freezing cold. This is when I believe the true nightmare for the Dothraki will begin.

Not saying the Dothrakia won't struggle in winter. Of course they will because they have never experienced winter. But I don't see how you think that Dorne will just fair better than the Dothraki. We have seen the Dornish literally wearing nothing all season. Have not seen them do much outside of Dorne. And you state they don't struggle because winter doesn't usually reach them. Is this not the same description we could use for the Dothraki?

Lets forget the winter for a second. Even getting the Dothraki through Dorne will be hell. If they land in Sunspear they'll have several hundred kilometers of desert to cross before they land in the Reach. Each Dothraki has a huge animal with him which has to be fed and watered daily. We have documented cases of for example Alexander the Great losing at least half and maybe even three quarters of his army after crossing the Gedrosian (semi)desert(and he had 30k people) and he fully planned to cross that desert. This is simply a logistical nightmare and nothing we've seen so far indicates Dany prepared for it. Also, Tyrells had a deal with the Lannisters about supplying the crown's armies and supporters, so their food stores can't be all that full, even though I don't think they are in great trouble. 70k additional soldiers (plus the local armies and support crews) are about to change that. And Tyrells organizing everything will raise too much of a suspicion about them siding with the Targaryens. So significant preparations can't be done in Westeros either.
The Dotrhaki are a plains/desert people, similar to the Dorne lifestyle (heat, move from watering hole to watering hole when traveling, horse breeds bred for high heat, etc.). So, to just say if they land in Dorne, Dothraki steeds will just die from the heat and whatever else I don't think is fair. During the Conquests, I don't remember how much was covered about Targaryans struggling logistically with their animals and all that, I just remember there being too many choke points in Dorne for them to successfully achieve any upper hand.

Even though not discussed, safe to assume Dany has brought a basic level of supplies for her army. Further, she is being advised by Tyrion and Varys, and once in Dorne possibly Elia and the Thorn Queen which should be some help in solving these problems.

In any case there's no way they are keeping their horses in Westeros. They'll get to Reach, maybe nibble on the some grass there, and that'll be the end of it. There are no massive steppes in Westeros like the Dothraki sea. There are swamps and mountains and and plains forests and deserts. All very unfavorable to the Dothraki who have specialized to fighting in the Dothraki sea and I think they'll be very ineffectual anywhere else for several reasons, some of which I already stated.

1. They won't be able to keep their horses for long. Soon enough they'll have to go on foot. This means a change of lifestyle and warfare for them in a middle of an all out war.

2. They are facing armored opponents with weapons that are ineffectual against armor.

3. They are arriving during the worst winter in the least 8000 years.

4. Potentially they first have to cross a desert.

5. The smallfolk won't take kindly to Dothraki screamers in their lands no matter what their lord tells them. They are less likely to help.

In conclusion I think Dany's ill prepared for the war to come and its gonna show in season 7.

In the grand scheme of things, I just think its a little unfair to say the Dothraki will be useless in Westeros. It's not like some leader over there that Dany trusts can't figure out a way to use the Dotrhaki during whatever battle she faces (unless the only battle she faces is the WW then they're screwed. Either way, I hear where you are coming from and agree for the most part, I just don't think they will be as useless as some make them out to be.

 

 

[OrcusOfUndeath]

Not gonna quote for sake of maintaining the readability of the thread.

The Dothraki are not desert people. They are specifically mentioned several times of being deathly afraid of the Red Waste.
They are peoples from the steps, the Dothraki sea. They have little in common with the Dornish. The winter isn't in Dorne yet, because it only just arrived. As I said probably in the first episode of next season we'll see it in King's Landing, because its supernaturally charged. The winter have been getting worse and worse. They won't reach Dorne probably by the next season, but the desert will be death for (what I'm now getting from the wikia) 100.000 Dothraki + 10.000 Unsullied (which are nothing compared to book Unsullied). Also Sunspear is by the sea in a more temperate climate, and this is where the Dorne storyline takes place, we've only seen the deserts of Dorne when Jaime and Bronn crossed them for a short time and they are harsh as hell. Dorne can't supply an army that size and the Reach could (at their height they could field 80-100k people), but their store are kinda questionable at this time.

I'm not saying the Dothraki will be useless per se, but at some point they'll become a hindrance and/or they'll cost Dany a major victory because they can't do well in Westeros. They have specialized very, very much to fighting in the Dothraki sea and the majority of them never left it. They are ineffective against armor, they won't be able to keep their horses, they will alienate the smallfolk and they'll be difficult to feed, especially if they cling to keeping their horses.

They can be utilized effectively, but only at the start of the campaign. If she doesn't go really, really fast, she's going to lose. And I don't think she can go really really fast if she lands in Dorne.

I just don't see this ending well for them. 100.000 is way too many. Dany's literally bringing the doom to Westeros. To feed the armies she'll have to empty the Reaches stores and this is the last harvest before the Long Night.

[King Perkis]

3 hours ago, OrcusOfUndeath said:

Not gonna quote for sake of maintaining the readability of the thread.

The Dothraki are not desert people. They are specifically mentioned several times of being deathly afraid of the Red Waste.
They are peoples from the steps, the Dothraki sea. They have little in common with the Dornish. The winter isn't in Dorne yet, because it only just arrived. As I said probably in the first episode of next season we'll see it in King's Landing, because its supernaturally charged. The winter have been getting worse and worse. They won't reach Dorne probably by the next season, but the desert will be death for (what I'm now getting from the wikia) 100.000 Dothraki + 10.000 Unsullied (which are nothing compared to book Unsullied). Also Sunspear is by the sea in a more temperate climate, and this is where the Dorne storyline takes place, we've only seen the deserts of Dorne when Jaime and Bronn crossed them for a short time and they are harsh as hell. Dorne can't supply an army that size and the Reach could (at their height they could field 80-100k people), but their store are kinda questionable at this time.

Only issue is they were afraid of the red waste because there wasn't water/food in that space to support them. Comparing the red waste to Dorne is a bit different. In the books we see them stopping at watering holes and moving relatively easy (I'd assume the same would apply in the show). Also in this case, the Martells would be working with Dany and the army, so safe to say they know somewhat of an idea of how to move an army through the area. Again, Targaryans and company were able to move through Dorne during the Conquest, so I don't see that big of an issue here. Further, Martell's were known for invading the Reach way back when with their desert horses etc.

I'm not saying the Dothraki will be useless per se, but at some point they'll become a hindrance and/or they'll cost Dany a major victory because they can't do well in Westeros. They have specialized very, very much to fighting in the Dothraki sea and the majority of them never left it. They are ineffective against armor, they won't be able to keep their horses, they will alienate the smallfolk and they'll be difficult to feed, especially if they cling to keeping their horses.

Ineffective against armor but they have the numbers. Just look at Vale knights cutting down Boltons in episode 9. It's not hard to hold back the Dotrhaki and use in a similar fashion.

They can be utilized effectively, but only at the start of the campaign. If she doesn't go really, really fast, she's going to lose. And I don't think she can go really really fast if she lands in Dorne.

They'll probably be useful in the beginning but until they develop an actual strategy for them in Westeros (ie against better army) it'll be interesting.
I just don't see this ending well for them. 100.000 is way too many. Dany's literally bringing the doom to Westeros. To feed the armies she'll have to empty the Reaches stores and this is the last harvest before the Long Night.

Just gonna say 1. Iron Bank still in play and more than willing to back likely winner (they backed Stannis for goodness sake) 2. Dany just left Meereen and how it fairs after she leaves will be interesting but there is another place she can pull resources from 3. I think you are underestimating the Tyrell feed stores. They wouldn't have depleted them so much for Lannister treaty unless they had a long term strategy. (Not saying this long winter won't ruin that strategy but there is still one there).

 

[Panther2000]

On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 1:15 AM, Sand Snakes said:

I have to think im not the only one who is worried about this. All this fuzz about the wildlings south of the wall... what about a horde of dothrakis in westeros? War, pillage and rape is their way of living, how is that gonna go in westeros? Also, they sell people into slavery, which is all that danny has been fighting against lately (and is also forbidden in westeros). They dont even speak thw common tongue. It sounds stupid to me to take them there.

Any chance this is going to unfold differently in the book? I'd like to hear thoughts on that.

I always felt this way sense I read it in the books.   Wanting to free slaves & all is very good, however has dany had that talk with the dothraki?   Even Khal Drogo told dani , that is was there way of life.    

I do see a major problem when they get there & take down Cersei.   Once the dust settles, they are going to want to get their spoils of war.  &  I don't see the Lords and the New King of the North letting these new people come in & take over.  Then again.  Dani & Co don't have a clue about WINTER.   How will the dothraki deal with the cold?

[OrcusOfUndeath]

Again I won't quote, it becomes very unreadable.

The Red Waste is a harsher desert, but the Dothraki Sea is not a desert. It has water and whole lot of grass. Everything a horse needs.

On record the Dornish did march a large army across the desert, but only once and it was 10.000 people. Dany is bringing more than 11 times that. I assumed they'd have guidance, but there are just no resources in the desert to support such a huge number of people for days or even weeks. This doesn't take into account at the very least tens of thousands of horses. Getting that many people through any desert is hell. I'm not saying half of them would die in the desert (but later in the winter), but the loses could be crippling. And now the Tyrells can't provide food immediately because it will be obvious that something is up.

Also the majority of fighting of Martells against the Tyrells was done in the Dornish marches which Martells held, which is today in the Stormlands, not in the Dorne itself.

During the war the Targaryens entered the desert fully equipped by Tyrells with water and food and mainly had infantry and dragons and their conquest lasted a Summer (reasonable to assume at least 5 years). They relied so heavily upon dragons that one was actually killed in Dorne.

The reason why the Knight of the Vale cut down the Boltons as easily as they did was because they flanked them and they were heavy cavalry charging into winded infantry. These are special circumstances. Furthermore the knights of the Vale are heavy cavalry and the Dothraki are the lightest cavalry you can imagine.

Dany never contacted the Iron Bank and at this point its too late to bring significant mercenary companies into play (some could arrive in time). But this would put Westeros even further in debt, thus damning the realm even more for Dany's conquest. 

Meereen is not a great place to pull resources from because it was just nearly razed to the ground and is also far away from Westeros.

In the end I'm not saying the Tyrell stores won't feed them. They'll definitely feed them, but after they are done there won't be enough left for the winter, because they are already not totally full. You have to feed 100k+ people and at least half as, and potentially just as many horses. The stores are going to be strained to hell, there's no doubt about that, especially if they have to feed Martells as well.

My main point here is that the Dothraki will not be under any logical circumstances able to keep their horses for long. And dothraki without forces are not nearly as effective as mounted Dothraki. They'll have them at the beginning of the invasion and that's it. To further attempt to feed them would mean taking food from the mouth of smallfolk. Not to mention they are already ineffective against armor. Slashing weapons will do little damage to armored opponents. The numbers are impressive, that's true and probably on numbers alone will they conquer southern and some of central Westeros. That's when the winter will hit them and they'll start losing Dothraki by the tens of thousands.

 

 

 

 

[El Guapo]

Why are people assuming they are going to land in Dorne?  What would be the point of that especially now that she already has the Dornish on her side?  I am guessing she is going to land very close to Kings Landing.

[King Perkis]

1.Food-Iron Bank for loan and not mercenaries. This would send crown further into debt but the likelyhood of her bringing prosperity is the highest compared among anyone else. Yes, there would be higher debt but the end of conflict would also lead to more trade and more revenue to eventually pay back loan. (Yes I understand winter coming, iron bank won't believe in WWs so that's not a factor, so realistically Dany could get a loan here, which in turn buys supplies from across the sea).

2.Red Waste v Dothraki Sea- I'll agree with you that if Dany moves quickly to an area that can inhabit them for a relatively decent period of time it should be fine.

3. Mereen- Not necessarily pull resources from here but use as her main port or whatever. I'm assuming she is still Queen, has left Daario to handle maintaining order, which in turn opens trade, which in turn brings in money and food, etc.

4. Tyrells/Martells-I don't think Tyrells will have to feed Martells at all since they have no been involved in recent Wars. that 100k figure will drop significantly and that's assuming they all make it. Further, Just like Dany left Daario behind, I don't see why she couldn't send Dothraki back if it comes to it (meaning after they have helped her with all her conquering nonsense).

5.Fighting-can shoot from horseback, which should be relatively useful and something new for Westeros to handle. Further, Bronn was able to defeat a knight just by moving, tiring him out, and shoving him through a door. Yes, Dothraki blades don't cut or have much of an effect on armor but Jorah only won that fight because he got lucky in several ways (poor slice by Dothraki, Dothraki assumed he could cut through the armor, etc.). I mean we just watched wildlings fight against Northerns and half the Northerners weren't in massive amounts of armor. So, to assume Dothraki are only going against armored Westerosis isn't fair.

1 hour ago, OrcusOfUndeath said:

 

 

[Bran Snow]

1 hour ago, El Guapo said:

Why are people assuming they are going to land in Dorne?  What would be the point of that especially now that she already has the Dornish on her side?  I am guessing she is going to land very close to Kings Landing.

That would be the worst thing she could do. First, her ships probably aren't going to be together. The seas are rough and the ships will be scattered. They don't have gps, so they can't pinpoint their landings. Second, its a long journey, the men will need to rest and get organized. Her best bet is to land in the south (dorne or reach) and regroup her army and then march on Kings Landing

[Lady Stouthearted]

Winter is arrived. Dany needs to make sure her troops have winter gear, or they'll freeze in the North. The Unsullied and Dothraki may not fare very well the cold climate. 

[Dan Hayes]

On 27 June 2016 at 1:02 PM, Ted Chang said:

If I might be so bold as to suggest a historical comparison, one might think of what happened to the Goths and Germans who forced their way into the Roman Empire in the years before Attila rolled in. They fought a lot, died a lot, and got Romanised. It may be that the surviving Dothraki simply semi-integrate. Hell, maybe they will end up as the new Night's Watch at the end.

Why wouldn't they just go home? Sure some would stay and integrate, but she is moving an army not a whole people. She has a finite number of ships and they swore to win her the seven kingdoms not live there. 

[OrcusOfUndeath]

On 6/28/2016 at 10:28 PM, King Perkis said:

 

1. There's an issue of transporting such an immense amount of food. We're taking about shipping food on ships from Essos to Westeros.That's in itself going to cost her an arm and a leg, not to mention they could only ship certain foods and have to count on their opponents not trying to sink such a fleet.

3. Meereen is convenient as a local port, but less so for Westeros. You'd need something like Pentos, Lys or even Braavos.

4. My main point is that the conquering of Westeros will take long enough for the Dothraki horses to become a hindrance and for winter to arrive. And they are very ill prepared for winter to begin with. Soon after the start of the campaign they'll have to deal with it and its not going to be pretty.

5. Bronn fought armored opponents his entire life and he wore a variant of the brigandine armor himself. And he got the knight into a disadvantageous position by the pillars. He also used spectators against the knight. And it was a duel - not a war scenario. In war you don't have large spaces to run around in single combat or obstacles through which to kite your opponent. Furthermore, slashing weapons don't do nearly anything against armor. What Bronn did was literally a fluke. He got really lucky to get that slash in and bled the knight. Armor is made specifically to protect against slashes and stabs from such weapons. I'm not saying that all Westerosi are heavily armored but they are ALL armored. Some of them wore leather armor which is still armor and has multiple layers, others wore brigandine, others still wore plate or scale or mail. The Dothraki Arakh is really, really bad against armor or fighting on foot. The fact that Jorah beat Qotho is no accident. He would win 9/10 times, and I'm giving that because Jorah is older. Armor, especially plate, is just that much of an advantage.

 

[tugela]

On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 5:02 AM, Ted Chang said:

If I might be so bold as to suggest a historical comparison, one might think of what happened to the Goths and Germans who forced their way into the Roman Empire in the years before Attila rolled in. They fought a lot, died a lot, and got Romanised. It may be that the surviving Dothraki simply semi-integrate. Hell, maybe they will end up as the new Night's Watch at the end.

The same thing happened to Atilla and his Huns incidentally. They became the modern day Hungarians, who, as we know, are no different from their neighbors today.

The Dothraki will just be assimilated. They did not bring their women, so they will marry into local widows. Their offspring will be raised by these women with Westerosi customs and values, so the old Dothraki ways will disappear in time (although a cultural nuance will remain)