Val is Jon’s true Queen. Part trois.

[DMC]

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not even sure that it makes much sense that Stannis and his people should put so much hope into her. I mean, they are told again and again that Val is not a princess and doesn't have any authority over the wildlings. How realistic is it that nobody listens to that?

Well, if anything, this thread got you to do something quite rare:  echo Jon's sentiments pretty much exactly.

I agree that Val in ADWD is rather one-dimensional or cliched.  However, that doesn't necessarily mean she will be in the future - fleshing seemingly one dimensional characters out in later volumes is a Martin hallmark, and I think that's what TFL was getting at upthread.  I could see that happening based on all the attention granted to her in during the Wall storyline.  By the same token, I could see her dying in the immediate aftermath of Jon's stabbing - she's a wildcard for me.

In terms of commanding allegiance to the wildings, I disagree with you somewhat there.  She's able to get Tormund to come to the table, and in terms of using her feminine wiles, Jon does mention Tormund's son is very interested right before the stabbing. 

Insofar as her motivation to resurrect Jon, I doubt she would initiate such an effort but could see her complying with Mel if she asks for her aid.  Why would she care to help?  For the same reason you say she's interested in seducing Jon in the first place:  He's her best hope in quelling all-out war between the Wildings and the NW and, by extension, the North.  While she may be lacking in characterization, she clearly does not come across as stupid and would know an alive Jon is in her interest.

[Lord Varys]

22 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Well, if anything, this thread got you to do something quite rare:  echo Jon's sentiments pretty much exactly.

I actually like the guy. Despite the fact that he is rather boring and stupid in ADwD. I liked the entire wildlings plot and was only realizing somewhat later that a lot of plot armor was involved. I'm just less forgiving in Jon's case than with Dany because George successfully presents her continuously as a character who is guided by destiny. I like stories like that. Realistic settings where people have too much luck not so much.

22 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

I agree that Val in ADWD is rather one-dimensional or cliched.  However, that doesn't necessarily mean she will be in the future - fleshing seemingly one dimensional characters out in later volumes is a Martin hallmark, and I think that's what TFL was getting at upthread.  I could see that happening based on all the attention granted to her in during the Wall storyline.  By the same token, I could see her dying in the immediate aftermath of Jon's stabbing - she's a wildcard for me.

There is a chance for that. But if she comes to the fore I'd still put most of my money of her just being there for a while, not until end. 

22 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

In terms of commanding allegiance to the wildings, I disagree with you somewhat there.  She's able to get Tormund to come to the table, and in terms of using her feminine wiles, Jon does mention Tormund's son is very interested right before the stabbing.

But is acting as an ambassador to get Tormund to the table really such a great deed? I mean, Tormund and Jon Snow like each other pretty much. Anybody knowing that and anybody knowing Tormund could have pulled that off, right? That Val gets alive through the snow is also not surprising considering that she is a wildling who used to live out there. She might even have known where the hell Tormund would wait for other survivors should the battle go awry (because Mance and he agreed to something like that).

22 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Insofar as her motivation to resurrect Jon, I doubt she would initiate such an effort but could see her complying with Mel if she asks for her aid.  Why would she care to help?  For the same reason you say she's interested in seducing Jon in the first place:  He's her best hope in quelling all-out war between the Wildings and the NW and, by extension, the North.  While she may be lacking in characterization, she clearly does not come across as stupid and would know an alive Jon is in her interest.

I don't even think Mel would want to bring Jon Snow back. It just doesn't make any sense. Regardless what happens immediately afterwards I see a good chance that Mel is going to end Marsh's reign with her powders or another shadow assassin or somebody working with a glamor. And then we have some planned cremation of Jon's body resulting in his resurrection on the pyre.

The idea that the characters at the Wall have now nothing better to do than to try to bring a dead guy back is pretty unlikely and completely unrealistic. I mean, why the hell isn't that the usual modus operandi? Dude gets killed, let us bring him back. Nothing could ruin the story more than characters remotely thinking in that direction.

[StarkofWinterfell]

Your argument makes it sound possible that Val is Jon's true queen but in your quote where Jon says to himself that he is not the one to steal her away, I think that is as far as it goes. For the purposes of the story it is my belief that Jon will never actually ever marry, have a mistress, or father children.

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't even think Mel would want to bring Jon Snow back. It just doesn't make any sense.

Granted, her impetus to bring Jon back requires a realization on her part that she was not mistaken in "always seeing Snow" when looking for Stannis/Azor Ahai - and putting together seeing Jon as a man/wolf/man again.

[The Fattest Leech]

58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

~~Snipped and answered below to ease in the answering process of which I am trying~~

First, Lord Varys, I am starting to think you are tricking me into repeating myself because you either, A. Like the sound of my shrill voice, or B. Are trying to convince me to be your drinking and karaoke partner... I dunno

Ok, now answers:

Yeah, Val is a candidate for a lot marriages. But nothing came of that, Exactly. Just like Val wasn't introduced earlier for Jon, no one can marry Val because the situation and the right person is not ready.

and I'd add that nothing could come of that politically, because Val doesn't exactly command the allegiance of any of the wildlings. She would be nothing but a pretty face. Better for Stannis than nothing at all, but still not exactly a good way to try to unite the North under her husband. She is, after all, a wildling. And the Northmen do not like wildlings. Correct, northmen do not like wildlings. But we already have Jon placing Alys Karstark with the Magnar of Thenn and there is talk about changing the sigil to represent both sides as one.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon X

Like so much else, heraldry ended at the Wall. The Thenns had no family arms as was customary amongst the nobles of the Seven Kingdoms, so Jon told the stewards to improvise. He thought they had done well. The bride's cloak Sigorn fastened about Lady Alys's shoulders showed a bronze disk on a field of white wool, surrounded by flames made with wisps of crimson silk. The echo of the Karstark sunburst was there for those who cared to look, but differenced to make the arms appropriate for House Thenn.

The Magnar all but ripped the maiden's cloak from Alys's shoulders, but when he fastened her bride's cloak about her he was almost tender. As he leaned down to kiss her cheek, their breath mingled. The flames roared once again. The queen's men began to sing a song of praise.

________________

The plan involving Sigorn and the Thenns might work because they are clearly much more like the kneelers. The Thenns worship Sigorn, and now he has married the heir to Karhold (or even the Lady of Karhold). You can work with such people. But Val wouldn't bring any spears to whoever married her as Lord of Winterfell. Because Val (and Dalla) were independant of the rest of the clans. They could free roam wherever they wanted to, unharmed and unmolested amongst these wildlings that you seem to think are so misogynistic and awful.

Perhaps that was a little bit to much on my part. But I was referring to the context of caring about resurrecting Jon Snow, not caring about Jon Snow in general. Val went out on a quest for Jon, found Tormund and the others, and escorted them back, on time, as she promised. She could have fled, never to return again. She was careful to show Jon that much honor and respect. Who knows what Val stopped and learned about Jon while she was out ranging for Tormund. Jon recognizes Ghost is of the Old Gods , then later, Jon sees that Ghost and Val look like they belong together and later, after Val returns, one of the things she is wearing is a weirwood face pin. Val is connected to the old gods, like Ghost and later Jon realizes, like himself.

And while there is certainly flirting going on one has to ask oneself whether Val is there talking to Jon Snow the person or Lord Commander Snow, the guy she could use to get what she wants should she successfully seduce him. I very much doubt Jon Snow the Steward would get the same amount of attention from her. Instead, she might have turned her eyes to Janos Slynt. Answered above, but basically, she wants Jon.

Just because Val is some spear-wife doesn't mean she has no idea how to seduce men. Val is not a spear wife. She is never called a spearwife in the books. Val and Dalla are different. Morna is not even technically a spearwife. She is a warrior witch... and one thing these witches do is heal.

She is, after all, a very beautiful woman. And one can assume that she in not very inclined to remain a prisoner in Castle Black forever. Sure, she realizes that Jon has been sufficiently seduced to the wildling way of life that his offer to help them is sincere. Jon himself and few others are recognizing that Jon is half a wildling himself... meaning not that he is seduced, but that he is half a First Man, just like the wildlings, so they are kin to each other.

And she obviously shares Mance and Dalla's view that the free folk has to cross the Wall to survive the winter (which is why she goes to Tormund and brings him to Castle Black). But this doesn't mean they have the same goals in the long run or agree how things should be done in the future. Survive winter and those other things . Val is willing to go against wildling code and kneel for Selyse. She even tells Jon, "Val's playful smile died. "You have my word, Lord Snow. I will be a proper wildling princess for your queen."

Come to think about Val right now, I must say I find her a not very interesting or realistic character. She is way too much the standard fantasy cliché of the beautiful woman everybody wants to fuck marry and due to the fact that we don't get any insight into her she remains shallow. I am a little surprised that you are coming to this conclusion. After all we read and speculate and the clues the readers have to draw together, we should know better than to take spoon-fed information seriously and know the better option would be to rely on the small stuff that, when pulled together, paints the big picture. Or, maybe you just hate the northern storyline. I dunno

I'm not even sure that it makes much sense that Stannis and his people should put so much hope into her. I mean, they are told again and again that Val is not a princess and doesn't have any authority over the wildlings. How realistic is it that nobody listens to that? Yup, Just as Jon has been saying. Funny enough, this is the one thing that Jon does say he knows for sure in this Val/wall arc. I think part of the problem is Selyse is not listening. Stannis listens, but kinds doesn't care because he is trying to save the realm to win the throne. Selyse is on my doomed short list. Selyse is making far too many ambitious marriage matches and other demands and i have a funny feeling that is going to come back and burn Selyse in the ass big time.

[BeeStark]

I feel like Val will remain as a minor character. She might do something beneficial for Jon, but I don't think she will be his end game

[bemused]

Well my interpretation is so vastly different than some here present (Lookin' at you Lord Varys..) we may already have reached the point of agreeing to disagree. For those who are open to it -

We know from George's own words that the religion of the old gods is based largely on the old Norse religion.  That's the religion, obviously, not the gods, themselves - meaning the religious practices, taboos, ways of seeking the favour of the gods, etc.

In that religion there were priestess/seers, who in English literature are collectively called the Vala - evoked in both Val and Dalla's names. .. Of Dalla, Mance says in ASoS, Jon X ...  "It's a wise woman I've found. A true queen." He also says in ASoS, Jon I .. "I met her on my return from your father's castle." ... Again in Jon X, Jon asks Mance if he's true king . He replies...  "I've never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that's what you're asking," ... ... "My birth is as low as a man's can get, no septon's ever smeared my head with oils, I don't own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires. I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist. You don't become King-beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won't follow a name, and they don't care which brother was born first. They follow fighters. When I left the Shadow Tower there were five men making noises about how they might be the stuff of kings. Tormund was one, the Magnar another. The other three I slew, when they made it plain they'd sooner fight than follow."
By contrast, still in ASoS, Jon XI, Stannis declares..  "I am the only true king in Westeros, north or south"...by which he means merely that he is Robert's sole legitimate heir. This would not make Stannis King in wildling eyes, but in all their thousands, they have accepted Mance as King-beyond-the-wall.

OK .. Mance "met" Dalla, didn't steal her.. Because he "found" her, she already was what she was, already possessed the attributes- status, talents, knowledge - that make her a wise woman and not just a wife, but a true queen. Val is her sister, but we actually don't know that they are sisters in the biological sense..maybe, maybe not.

Here's Val at Mance's burning :  Val stood beside him (Stannis), tall and fair. They had crowned her with a simple circlet of dark bronze, yet she looked more regal in bronze than Stannis did in gold. Her eyes were grey (mistake, IIRC) and fearless, unflinching. Beneath an ermine cloak, she wore white and gold. Her honey-blond hair had been done up in a thick braid that hung over her right shoulder to her waist. The chill in the air had put color in her cheeks. .. ADWD, Jon III

Jon thinks she looks more regal than Stannis and the in-story symbolism in her attire is not only Stannis' message to the wildlings, but GRRMs hints to us. The bronze circlet, or crown connects her to the first wave of the First Men (ancient lineage, as old as Jon's, older than Stannis').Gold and ermine we automatically associate with high status and even royalty... so she's at least fit to be a queen and this may well turn out to be foreshadowing.

I've written reams on this topic in various versions of this thread and my own, so I won't duplicate it all here, but I will raise this: there are gaps in logic that can't be resolved unless we accept that Val has some very special status. Here are just some of them..

Why does Stannis insist on calling her the wildling princess? He's not like Selyse and her "court". They are stupid. Stannis is not.  

 Stannis may well know that Val is of exalted status, though he may not know a relatable title for it... He's had hours of conversation with Mance and even though he feels he can give Val in marriage as he chooses (she is his captive), it's worth noting that she's not made to publicly kneel to him ,or renounce her gods by burning weirwood. (though she later kneels privately to Selyse, for Jon's sake)

Mance may have been able to convince Stannis that those acts would render her useless as a bridge between the Free Folk and the Westerosi... or Mance may have encouraged Stannis to think of her as a princess, contrary to Jon's opinion. (In order to preserve her status with the FF) Mance's word would carry more weight than Jon's on wildling politics. Something took place, otherwise, it simply doesn't make sense that she alone should be excused the humiliation.

By the same token, protective as he is and as beautiful as she is, why does Jon send her into the wild alone? He doesn't think she's a princess and he knows about bride stealing of both the real and mock variety. Once again, I think we can look to Mance, who Jon must have spoke with again , before Mance went in search of Arya. It's possible only his reassurance could have convinced Jon. 

If Val has religious significance, she needs protection from Mel. Stannis may not know about that, or he may be pragmatic enough to keep it from Mel. To me it's clear that he was pragmatic enough to be in on Mance's glamour. Both would be in the interest of gaining more wildlings ..at first thought, to swell his army, later, to let Jon man the wall.(And I'm sure Stannis is capable of understanding Jon's equation - dead wildlings beyond the wall = undead wight attackers.) 

That's enough for now, but Val is so much more than a cardboard character, or just a pretty face. George has been slowly, subtly building a picture around her and I believe she 's about to take centre stage in the aftermath of the attack on Jon.

ETA: @The Fattest Leech... I like your post, above. Just saw it now.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Granted, her impetus to bring Jon back requires a realization on her part that she was not mistaken in "always seeing Snow" when looking for Stannis/Azor Ahai - and putting together seeing Jon as a man/wolf/man again.

I don't see that happening. There was no hint she had changed her mind on the Azor Ahai thing prior to Jon's murder, and subsequently she should not change it after his death. She would also not consider Stannis to be more definitely Azor Ahai after his death is confirmed without a doubt (which Stannis' death is not going to be but Jon's will).

Vice versa, the fact that Stannis is Azor Ahai in Mel's mind will confirm for her that he cannot be dead. Thus she will also have no reason to reconsider her view.

8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Exactly. Just like Val wasn't introduced earlier for Jon, no one can marry Val because the situation and the right person is not ready.

Sorry, that is a no answer. Even if Jon and Val were destined for each other's arms both could still have a lot of affairs and marriages before that fateful moment happened (and while that happened, if they like the poly thing).

8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Correct, northmen do not like wildlings. But we already have Jon placing Alys Karstark with the Magnar of Thenn and there is talk about changing the sigil to represent both sides as one.

This whole thing might actually fly in Jon Snow's face because Lord Harrion Karstark, Rickard's eldest son, is still alive and a prisoner at Maidenpool. While he might be duly thankful that the Thenns took care of Alys in a time of need I'm not sure he'll be happy to have a bunch of wildlings in his castle. Vice versa, Sigorn might not exactly be willing to defer to his brother-in-law. Do you?

8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Because Val (and Dalla) were independant of the rest of the clans. They could free roam wherever they wanted to, unharmed and unmolested amongst these wildlings that you seem to think are so misogynistic and awful.

They could? Is this actually confirmed or just your assumption? Val riding through the snow does not mean that she actually encountered many wildlings. Especially if she knew in advance where to find Tormund.

The only thing we know for a certainty is that Dalla and Val were Mance's pet. The biggest fish in the pond gets the prettiest face. That is no surprise. And if you have the king protecting you then you can fancy yourself an aristocrat. But we cannot deduce that these women had a special status independent of Mance. Granted, Dalla seems to be pretty knowledgeable about stuff in the lands beyond the Wall. But then, that would just confirm that Mance was looking for brains as much as he was looking for a pretty face.

8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Val went out on a quest for Jon, found Tormund and the others, and escorted them back, on time, as she promised. She could have fled, never to return again. She was careful to show Jon that much honor and respect. Who knows what Val stopped and learned about Jon while she was out ranging for Tormund. Jon recognizes Ghost is of the Old Gods , then later, Jon sees that Ghost and Val look like they belong together and later, after Val returns, one of the things she is wearing is a weirwood face pin. Val is connected to the old gods, like Ghost and later Jon realizes, like himself.

Val's actions can be completely explained by her caring about her people and agreeing with Mance and Dalla that the free folk would only be safe south of the Wall. We don't have to make this all about Jon. Jon is a means to an end here, not the guy she wants to impress.

By the way, there are no old gods. There are just the greenseers. I thought ADwD had sufficiently established that. The more primitive version of animism Varamyr's family followed doesn't even make a special case for the weirwoods. Everything living has a spirit and the dead return to nature.

If Val/Dalla were wise women as other woods witches are then there is no reason to not spill that out. The idea that wildling society (which is essentially a disparate of many different clans and cultures) has some sort of secret priesthood thing going on makes no sense.

8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Answered above, but basically, she wants Jon.

I'm not completely disagreeing there, I'm just asking the question why she would want him if not to make use of him for her own ends. I don't think Jon in himself is such an attractive manly 15-year-old to make a very beautiful and experienced grown-up woman all that wet between her legs. If they ever have another relationship it will be Arianne-Arys again, not 'true love'.

8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Val is not a spear wife. She is never called a spearwife in the books. Val and Dalla are different. Morna is not even technically a spearwife. She is a warrior witch... and one thing these witches do is heal.

You could be right there. I meant that in a sense that Val certainly should be able to defend herself to a degree. Else the men in the society she lives in would just take her. Varamyr, the Weeper, etc. wouldn't give a damn about her being 'different'.

Do you really think some extra like Morna is going to come to the fore now to save Jon? That doesn't make much sense.

8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jon himself and few others are recognizing that Jon is half a wildling himself... meaning not that he is seduced, but that he is half a First Man, just like the wildlings, so they are kin to each other.

That doesn't make any sense. The Starks are First Men, too, and none of them sees himself akin to the wildlings. What gets to Jon is the wildling lifestyle, not some blood kinship. He doesn't want to remain a eunuch by choice in a miserable place his entire life. Ygritte brought it back to him that there are women to fuck and places to see out there. And he hasn't completely let go of that thing yet.

And he is right that the wildlings stand no chance alone in the wild and would only strengthen the wight army of the Others. It is the right thing to try to save the wildlings, too. His empathic connection with them helped him overcome his prejudices and all. He just sucked at communicating that to his officers (and failed to actually fire the people opposed to his policies) and has no really great idea how to feed all those people in winter.

8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I am a little surprised that you are coming to this conclusion. After all we read and speculate and the clues the readers have to draw together, we should know better than to take spoon-fed information seriously and know the better option would be to rely on the small stuff that, when pulled together, paints the big picture. Or, maybe you just hate the northern storyline. I dunno

If you want to see or reinvent Val as some sort of mysterious character you are welcome to it. I don't think this whole thing makes a convincing mystery. Is she was this priestess woman why can't be not get actually conclusive clues - like the Alleras-Sarella, the Sandor, the Pate-Jaqen, or the Frey pie mystery? Why does Val have to be a mystery at all? Why is she not simply introduced as some sort of wildling priestess?

If there something really special about Val then we would have gotten a pretty big hint that there was something special about Val. Melisandre could have made such a comment, or her chapter could have given her some insight into a recent conversation she had with Val on the same 'hint level' as we the Melony slavery hint in the very same chapter. Or the confirmation that she was sleeping with Stannis.

2 hours ago, bemused said:

We know from George's own words that the religion of the old gods is based largely on the old Norse religion.  That's the religion, obviously, not the gods, themselves - meaning the religious practices, taboos, ways of seeking the favour of the gods, etc.

In that religion there were priestess/seers, who in English literature are collectively called the Vala - evoked in both Val and Dalla's names.

That is an interesting parallel. The question is whether that is more than just an interesting parallel and something that is relevant to the plot.

2 hours ago, bemused said:

OK .. Mance "met" Dalla, didn't steal her.. Because he "found" her, she already was what she was, already possessed the attributes- status, talents, knowledge - that make her a wise woman and not just a wife, but a true queen. Val is her sister, but we actually don't know that they are sisters in the biological sense..maybe, maybe not.

Mance telling that Dalla is a true queen doesn't make it so. Making compliments to a person doesn't necessarily mean they are true. Even if they are true in your own mind. I'm sure that Mance believed that Dalla was a true queen - but that tells us more about Mance than about Dalla.

More importantly, Mance was a nice guy. He was a singer and could seduce people. There is no reason to believe that he had to ever steal a woman. But him finding Dalla clearly shows who is the active part there, the guy with the agency. Dalla is as much an independent person as a flower on the wayside or a precious stone. You find things, but you meet other people.

2 hours ago, bemused said:

Jon thinks she looks more regal than Stannis and the in-story symbolism in her attire is not only Stannis' message to the wildlings, but GRRMs hints to us. The bronze circlet, or crown connects her to the first wave of the First Men (ancient lineage, as old as Jon's, older than Stannis').Gold and ermine we automatically associate with high status and even royalty... so she's at least fit to be a queen and this may well turn out to be foreshadowing.

Or not. I mean, now people are going to be royals just because other people put them in fancy dresses? Jaime once looked like a king, too, in Jon's eyes. But nothing came of that. Tywin is insanely overdressed during the Battle at the Green Fork and Cersei displays precious gems and clothes every time she shows up. But hopefully nobody ever considers that to be foreshadowing that they will end up in charge and all wear crowns.

2 hours ago, bemused said:

I've written reams on this topic in various versions of this thread and my own, so I won't duplicate it all here, but I will raise this: there are gaps in logic that can't be resolved unless we accept that Val has some very special status. Here are just some of them..

Why does Stannis insist on calling her the wildling princess? He's not like Selyse and her "court". They are stupid. Stannis is not.

 Stannis may well know that Val is of exalted status, though he may not know a relatable title for it... He's had hours of conversation with Mance and even though he feels he can give Val in marriage as he chooses (she is his captive), it's worth noting that she's not made to publicly kneel to him ,or renounce her gods by burning weirwood. (though she later kneels privately to Selyse, for Jon's sake).

In my opinion that is making too much out of stuff that is irritating but not difficult to explain. Val is just a hot woman and the only bargaining chip Stannis got. What else should he do? People want to see and marry the wildling princess so why the hell not make use of that?

And Stannis is clearly unwilling to go along with the wildling concept of kingship. He is a chauvinist. Things are the way they are in the Seven Kingdoms, and the wildlings better accept them or be damned.

2 hours ago, bemused said:

Mance may have been able to convince Stannis that those acts would render her useless as a bridge between the Free Folk and the Westerosi... or Mance may have encouraged Stannis to think of her as a princess, contrary to Jon's opinion. (In order to preserve her status with the FF) Mance's word would carry more weight than Jon's on wildling politics. Something took place, otherwise, it simply doesn't make sense that she alone should be excused the humiliation.

She was a prisoner of war, was she not? And didn't they have her in Castle Black along with Mance long before the public humiliation thing later on when the wildlings were allowed to pass through the Wall?

You should also keep in mind that Mel is rather dismissive and contemptuous of Mance in her chapter. She doesn't give a damn about his people and his opinion aside from the knowledge he has about things that she is interested in.

2 hours ago, bemused said:

By the same token, protective as he is and as beautiful as she is, why does Jon send her into the wild alone? He doesn't think she's a princess and he knows about bride stealing of both the real and mock variety. Once again, I think we can look to Mance, who Jon must have spoke with again , before Mance went in search of Arya. It's possible only his reassurance could have convinced Jon. 

Or it is not great loss if Val gets lost because she is not much worth all that much anyway. Your idea makes no sense in any case due to the narrative structure of the story. Jon actually sends Mance to Winterfell before he has his epiphany at the weirwood grove causing him to decide to call the wildlings to Castle Black. He could not have possibly talked to Mance about that once he was gone, or could he?

2 hours ago, bemused said:

If Val has religious significance, she needs protection from Mel. Stannis may not know about that, or he may be pragmatic enough to keep it from Mel. To me it's clear that he was pragmatic enough to be in on Mance's glamour. Both would be in the interest of gaining more wildlings ..at first thought, to swell his army, later, to let Jon man the wall.(And I'm sure Stannis is capable of understanding Jon's equation - dead wildlings beyond the wall = undead wight attackers.) 

The idea that Stannis would keep anything from Mel makes no sense at all.

2 hours ago, bemused said:

That's enough for now, but Val is so much more than a cardboard character, or just a pretty face. George has been slowly, subtly building a picture around her and I believe she 's about to take centre stage in the aftermath of the attack on Jon.

I'd agree that Val might become more important on her tertiary character level but nothing more than that.

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't see that happening. There was no hint she had changed her mind on the Azor Ahai thing prior to Jon's murder, and subsequently she should not change it after his death. She would also not consider Stannis to be more definitely Azor Ahai after his death is confirmed without a doubt (which Stannis' death is not going to be but Jon's will).

Vice versa, the fact that Stannis is Azor Ahai in Mel's mind will confirm for her that he cannot be dead. Thus she will also have no reason to reconsider her view.

Well I strongly disagree there.  The most logical thing for her to do immediately upon storming off is to once again "look" for Stannis - precisely because, yes, she will not believe the Pink Letter.  Obviously, doing so could change things.  If she comes to understand Jon has warged into Ghost, that could change things.  Generally, I hate speculating about his resurrection because literally none of the myriad theories I've read satisfy and I'd rather just wait, but the primary reason I strongly disagree is pretty simple:  she is currently with Jon and not with Stannis.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Well I strongly disagree there.  The most logical thing for her to do immediately upon storming off is to once again "look" for Stannis - precisely because, yes, she will not believe the Pink Letter.  Obviously, doing so could change things.  If she comes to understand Jon has warged into Ghost, that could change things.  Generally, I hate speculating about his resurrection because literally none of the myriad theories I've read satisfy and I'd rather just wait, but the primary reason I strongly disagree is pretty simple:  she is currently with Jon and not with Stannis.

Well, first she should ensure that she and her people are safe. Then she should check out what Marsh is up to. And so on.

Mel is not likely to figure out where Jon's spirit is now. Borroq is there to do just that.

And we won't get Stannis being allegedly dead, now him being very much alive, and then having him die shortly there after for real. That wouldn't make all that much sense.

Thus I'm much more inclined to believe that Jon's specialness and what not is only going to come into play when his parentage is going to be revealed to the public - and that's not going to happen right now. No pieces are yet in place for any of that.

[DMC]

57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, first she should ensure that she and her people are safe. Then she should check out what Marsh is up to. And so on.

Mel is not likely to figure out where Jon's spirit is now. Borroq is there to do just that.

And we won't get Stannis being allegedly dead, now him being very much alive, and then having him die shortly there after for real. That wouldn't make all that much sense.

Thus I'm much more inclined to believe that Jon's specialness and what not is only going to come into play when his parentage is going to be revealed to the public - and that's not going to happen right now. No pieces are yet in place for any of that.

Presumably Mel is already aware whether she's safe or not and I don't think she comparatively gives a shit about her people.  Or even Marsh, for that matter.

Sure, Borroq could be the one to figure out where Jon's spirit is.  Why couldn't Mel then become apprised of such information?

Who said Stannis was going to die soon?  Just don't think he's like to be making it back to the Wall anytime soon.

So if I'm getting you right, does that mean you think Jon's just gonna be in Ghost for, like, almost all of TWOW?  If so, yeah that's just a fundamental disagreement we have.

[the snow dragon]

Lord varys is right about one point that nobody is going to resurrect Jon snow intentionally. The thing is, although Mel has shown some interest in Jon but she doesn't seem to think that Jon is so important. To her stanis is ajor ahai and all others are just tools.Vall and morna hasn't yet shown to possess powers that can resurrect a dead man.Blood raven hasn't shown any interest in Jon at all. So resurrection, if happened, won't be intentional.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

11 hours ago, BeeStark said:

I feel like Val will remain as a minor character. She might do something beneficial for Jon, but I don't think she will be his end game

I'm the same. Well it's not like the hottest in the town will end up with the hero anyway lol

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Presumably Mel is already aware whether she's safe or not and I don't think she comparatively gives a shit about her people.  Or even Marsh, for that matter.

But wouldn't Marsh decide to take her, Selyse, Shireen, and the other Stannis people into custody to hand them over to the trueborn Lord of Winterfell as was demanded in the Pink Letter? To save the Night's Watch? I think Melisandre is not going to go along with that.

2 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Sure, Borroq could be the one to figure out where Jon's spirit is.  Why couldn't Mel then become apprised of such information?

I think he will. Just was referring to Mel figuring it out on her own.

2 hours ago, dmc515 said:

Who said Stannis was going to die soon?  Just don't think he's like to be making it back to the Wall anytime soon.

Once Mel figures out/gets confirmation that Stannis is still alive (perhaps from a letter actually written by Stannis) Jon Snow will be even less important for her because Stannis is still her savior.

2 hours ago, dmc515 said:

So if I'm getting you right, does that mean you think Jon's just gonna be in Ghost for, like, almost all of TWOW?  If so, yeah that's just a fundamental disagreement we have.

No, not at all. I think it might take a while, perhaps half through the book or more and then Jon will somehow get back into his own body.

Depending on the resurrection setting (Mel giving Jon the last rites on his pyre or prior to that in private) Mel might even keep the resurrection of Jon's body a secret and decide to burn a glamored body. That could make sense in a setting in which Marsh and company remain in charge for the time being. And there might be some sort of narrative twist involved in Jon Snow's revelation that he has come back from the dead at a later point.

How they are going to reunite body and spirit is the huge question mark, actually.

[Light a wight tonight]

One thing that hasn't been discussed is that Jon has become repelled by Val's fear/hatred of Shireen for her greyscale affliction. Shireen is a sweet kid and Val's calling for her death. Jon finds this intolerable.

As an aside, we have no proof that Jon is dead, and twice we have examples of Starks who are in apparent death situations who survived. Bran falling from the tower and Arya being hit in the head with an axe by Sandor. Both survived, and I have no doubt that Jon will as well.

[DMC]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But wouldn't Marsh decide to take her, Selyse, Shireen, and the other Stannis people into custody to hand them over to the trueborn Lord of Winterfell as was demanded in the Pink Letter? To save the Night's Watch? I think Melisandre is not going to go along with that.

It's possible Marsh would seek to immediately secure the Queen's Men.  Alternatively, the conspirators may not view it as worthwhile to confront the remains of Selyse's guard because they're very short on men and where are they going to go anyway?  Or, Marsh and the conspirators may die or flee before doing anything.  Like I said, not a huge fan on speculating on the specifics and I'm open to a number of possibilities.

However, this has nothing to do with my original point - which was that immediately upon storming out of Jon's public reading of the Pink Letter, Mel's priority would be in ensuring Stannis is still alive.  And, in doing so, her visions may once again point to Jon as AA.  The only way Mel would be concerned about Marsh at that point would be if she had prior knowledge (that is specific - i.e. more than simply "daggers in the dark") of the conspiracy, which I do not think is the case.  We appear to be talking past each other here.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think he will. Just was referring to Mel figuring it out on her own.

Ok.  Again, my point was if Mel knows Jon is in Ghost, then recalling her past vision of Jon's death as a man/wolf/man again (which came to her when she was looking for Stannis) may give her the notion for resurrection.  Basically, the idea that her chapter (and visions therein) was not just for our sake IRT foreshadowing.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Once Mel figures out/gets confirmation that Stannis is still alive (perhaps from a letter actually written by Stannis) Jon Snow will be even less important for her because Stannis is still her savior.

See above about talking past each other.  My purpose was to present plausible reasons for why Mel would wish to resurrect Jon.  Since I agree this by necessity means her changing her viewpoint on Stannis as AA, this is irrelevant.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Depending on the resurrection setting (Mel giving Jon the last rites on his pyre or prior to that in private) Mel might even keep the resurrection of Jon's body a secret and decide to burn a glamored body. That could make sense in a setting in which Marsh and company remain in charge for the time being. And there might be some sort of narrative twist involved in Jon Snow's revelation that he has come back from the dead at a later point.

Ok, so now you're entertaining the possibility that Mel has no interest in resurrecting Jon, somehow does so anyway accidently, then once doing so keeps it a secret?

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

One thing that hasn't been discussed is that Jon has become repelled by Val's fear/hatred of Shireen for her greyscale affliction. Shireen is a sweet kid and Val's calling for her death. Jon finds this intolerable.

Yeah, there is germ of a later plot line in there. But we don't know yet what it will be. Certain things have to happen with Shireen and Patchface before any of them can die - if they do die in the books.

1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

As an aside, we have no proof that Jon is dead, and twice we have examples of Starks who are in apparent death situations who survived. Bran falling from the tower and Arya being hit in the head with an axe by Sandor. Both survived, and I have no doubt that Jon will as well.

Those are not the same. The fall from a tower is not necessarily mortal and neither is a blow with an axe if you use the correct end. The wounds Jon received should be lethal in Martinworld. And if received much more wounds then he might already be dead.

7 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

However, this has nothing to do with my original point - which was that immediately upon storming out of Jon's public reading of the Pink Letter, Mel's priority would be in ensuring Stannis is still alive.  And, in doing so, her visions may once again point to Jon as AA.  The only way Mel would be concerned about Marsh at that point would be if she had prior knowledge (that is specific - i.e. more than simply "daggers in the dark") of the conspiracy, which I do not think is the case.  We appear to be talking past each other here.

Oh, okay. But perhaps she might already have known that the Pink Letter was fake in that regard? After all, she gives the impression that she knew the contents before Jon received the letter earlier in the chapter. We never see Mel stricken or shaken or anything like that after Jon reads the letter. The fool doesn't seem to have watched Melisandre during his reading/speech.

7 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Ok.  Again, my point was if Mel knows Jon is in Ghost, then recalling her past vision of Jon's death as a man/wolf/man again (which came to her when she was looking for Stannis) may give her the notion for resurrection.  Basically, the idea that her chapter (and visions therein) was not just for our sake IRT foreshadowing.

That is a possibility. Melisandre certainly might be capable to pull off an intentional resurrection. But that doesn't necessitate her to change her mind on Azor Ahai. She could just decide that the man-wolf-man sequence is temporal and consider that a resurrected Jon Snow would continue to be a great ally/asset.

We are not given the impression that R'hllor's visions work like a request show. You can pray/hope to see things you want to see but their is no guarantee. Mel is convinced that Stannis is Azor Ahai. Visions of Jon are not going to change that. They might if she had information about Jon's true heritage but as of yet she doesn't have any such information. And even then I'd put more money on her considering Jon's value as a blood sacrifice or life force/semen donor than that she would actually want to reassess her own convictions about the savior. 

I think Melisandre will ride her chosen savior horse Stannis until her breaks. And she might then break her neck when she falls off him.

7 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Ok, so now you're entertaining the possibility that Mel has no interest in resurrecting Jon, somehow does so anyway accidently, then once doing so keeps it a secret?

I'm more inclined that the resurrection will be an accident of the same type as Beric's first resurrection was. Something miraculous and unexpected but incomplete considering that Jon's spirit will be stuck in Ghost. It could also be the other way around that Jon's spirit is first discovered in Ghost and then they decide to try to resurrect his body.

But if the reunion of spirit and body is going to be difficult enterprise then I think it might be worthwhile to actually keep the fact a secret that there is a mindless Drogo-like Jon Snow somewhere in Castle Black.

[DMC]

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

After all, she gives the impression that she knew the contents before Jon received the letter earlier in the chapter.

Yeah, she implies she knows something about the letter, right?  Tells Jon to look to the skies then come to her or something?  But, like the daggers in the dark (and all her visions, really), I don't think she's aware of the specifics of the letter.  My distinct impression is she storms off as a reaction to the letter, in which case consulting her "Lord" and seeking Stannis would be her intent.

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think Melisandre will ride her chosen savior horse Stannis until her breaks. And she might then break her neck when she falls off him.

LOL, that was almost poetic of you - well done!  Anyway, I think this is the basis of our disagreement.

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But if the reunion of spirit and body is going to be difficult enterprise then I think it might be worthwhile to actually keep the fact a secret that there is a mindless Drogo-like Jon Snow somewhere in Castle Black.

Count me as decidedly not a fan of Drogo-Jon. 

[bemused]

3 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

One thing that hasn't been discussed is that Jon has become repelled by Val's fear/hatred of Shireen for her greyscale affliction. Shireen is a sweet kid and Val's calling for her death. Jon finds this intolerable.

As an aside, we have no proof that Jon is dead, and twice we have examples of Starks who are in apparent death situations who survived. Bran falling from the tower and Arya being hit in the head with an axe by Sandor. Both survived, and I have no doubt that Jon will as well.

Jon is definitely shocked ... and so is Val. Sadly, I expect her view to be vindicated - north of the wall. This might be because wildling territory must have frequently moist conditions,(rain, snow melt) and less in the way of snug, dry abodes ..and perhaps.. since greyscale seems to have had a magical origin (an effect of Garin's curse ?), the magic of the Wall may increase the severity of the disease, similar to Mel sensing that her magic will be stronger at the Wall.

While I think Jon and Val are both momentarily repelled , I think their attraction is strong enough to overcome it. I've always thought poor Shireen is doomed to Mel / Selyse's flames, one way or another, but her greycale may show signs of resurgence before that.

I, too, have no doubt Jon will survive. 

ETA: I agree that we have no proof that he's dead and I'd go further to say we have no clear proof of how severe his injuries are.. Well, we know Wick's was a graze, only... while Bowen's dagger is buried in something . Some assume that's mostly in Jon's belly , others , like me, say it's partly in his belly, partly in whatever he's wearing for attire - and I think, to borrow a phrase from BR in TMK.. "The answer to that is, quite a lot."

We don't know that any other dagger blows landed, only that Jon expected 2 more (since he noticed Bowen with 3 companions). End of chapter. We don't know if he's even passed out.

 

[LifeRuiner]

But how do you explain Val's absence from the tv show and from the original book outline? 

I think that Val is, I'm really sorry, the much more tasteful equivalent (by a factor of a million) of Shae and Daario. She is there to provide romantic interest to one of the three mains until this main meets their fate or endgame, so to speak. And this fate wouldn't necessarily be another romance. It may be even death or something else endgamey, but the bottom line is, Val is there for the middle act only.

Another thing, there's no real buildup or progression of their relationship but for these few lines. Jon wants her and he idealizes her, but he chooses his vows, and this is all I'm reading here. 

I wouldn't have come into a thread of ship appreciation with this (because I really do like Val and her presence in Jon's life), but unless I'm wrong, you seem to want to discuss Jon's romantic endgame with this post title.