Val is Jon’s true Queen. Part trois.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

There is also something more I thought. Jon's hero when he was a child was Daeron the Young Dragon, the next Daeron the Good brought Dorne into the Realm by marriage and the third Daeron, Jon, will bring the Free Folk into the Realm by marriage.

[The Fattest Leech]

10 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

There is also something more I thought. Jon's hero when he was a child was Daeron the Young Dragon, the next Daeron the Good brought Dorne into the Realm by marriage and the third Daeron, Jon, will bring the Free Folk into the Realm by marriage.

I was just about to post something, somewhat along these lines. Val is north, Jon is south, Dorne, IF that is any requirement for the Westeros as a whole. Who knows, those requirements could change???

By the end of Dance, Jon sees himself naturally being like Ghost and the Old Gods and even as a wildling himself. And in doing so he will naturally take up the traditions of the first men, of which the wildling and Starks belong to. In doing so, any female that is of his blood is off limits.

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

[Jon] "Longspear's not your brother."

[Ygritte] "He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals (marries) a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

[Jon] "Craster weds his daughters," Jon pointed out.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

First this is not true. Nobody wants Davos dead or else he would be dead by now. Second Davos is a POV chapter introduced in the second book and thus a much more important character than Val.

Most of the time Stannis protected Davos. No one really tried to kill him. But you feel the character is in great danger.

About POV. I don't think you are important only if you are a POV. And you may be important in different ways. Hotah & Oakheart were POV. Were they important? No. They were just "camera". Tywin was important, Varys and LF are important too. Are they POV? No. To not be a POV could mean GRRM wanted to hide something. Val could be Jon's future queen, could be the "younger, more beautiful queen" of Cersei's prophecy, without ever have a POV chapter.

[Sigella]

7 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Since there is much talk about my all time favourite ship and the other (1 & 2) were archived here is a new one.

So far I have 

 

 

 

Special thanks @The Fattest Leech for the last quote.

 

What do you think? What do you believe that I have forgotten?

Disagree. Val is the Night King's true queen. 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They may have some sex. If fire wight Jon still can perform. But I doubt that Val is going to survive the series.

Val is an intriguing character, but since she's not given much page-time she's not very likely to sit beside the KitN. Seriously, she's the perfect Night Queen.

2 hours ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

Val is Rhaegar: Confirmed.

[teej6]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

*Ygritte was there to teach Jon a lesson, he knows nothing, and Jon is still learning on some issues. Jon will get his graduation cap when he is "reborn", however that happens. The "you know nothing" is a major theme throughout Jon's arc. It is mentioned 13 times in Dance alone. Both Val and Tormund remind Jon of this.

And, I may be misreading your statement here, but it is not Tormund pushing Val to Jon, it is actually Tormund pushing Jon to Val... but Jon feels that he is not allowed because of his NW vows.

Yes, I meant Tormund pushing Jon to steal Val and take her for his wife. Perhaps you're right, and if and when Jon is free of his vows he may pursue Val. Like I said, she appears to be a perfect match for him. I most definitely prefer a Jon/Val match to a Jon/Dany one. 

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, teej6 said:

Yes, I meant Tormund pushing Jon to steal Val and take her for his wife. Perhaps you're right, and if and when Jon is free of his vows he may pursue Val. Like I said, she appears to be a perfect match for him. I most definitely prefer a Jon/Val match to a Jon/Dany one. 

Gotcha. Thanks. 

However it all works, I can't wait. 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Most of the time Stannis protected Davos. No one really tried to kill him. But you feel the character is in great danger.

I don't think Davos is in that much danger, actually. Not right now with him being on Skagos. That is a manageable amount of danger, at least as far as we can make educated guesses. Skagos is a dangerous place but not likely to be overrun by the Others in the near future nor likely to be crushed under tons of ice when the Wall falls.

Quote

About POV. I don't think you are important only if you are a POV. And you may be important in different ways. Hotah & Oakheart were POV. Were they important? No. They were just "camera". Tywin was important, Varys and LF are important too. Are they POV? No. To not be a POV could mean GRRM wanted to hide something. Val could be Jon's future queen, could be the "younger, more beautiful queen" of Cersei's prophecy, without ever have a POV chapter.

I did not say only POVs are important. That is ridiculous. There are primary and secondary POVs, of course. And by the way: Areo Hotah still is a POV and has been confirmed to return big time in TWoW.

Val is in the category of the tertiary characters I mentioned above. In other regions she is somebody like Anya Waynwood, Ellaria Sand, Taena Merryweather, Hyle Hunt.

Not completely irrelevant but scarcely a core character we should expect to play a major role in the story. If there is some blood sacrifices to come she would make a fine sacrifice due to her alleged royal status. Not to mention that she would make a fine Nissa Nissa replacement if Jon Snow really wants to have that burning sword Stannis still lacks.

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

1. Val isn't as elaborated as say, Tormund, because we are only now being introduced to her in the second act. George planned for three acts and in each we will have new characters. Aurane Waters is a goods example of a second act character that is set up to die. He seems disinterested in any real actions of the council expect to get what he wants and then to exit stage left all for his action to happen off-screen while the reader knows plenty of naval battles are in the works at the same time. Dude is dead. Aurane has limited dialogue and limited main character interactions. He is mostly talked about, not to. Val is not only talked to by Jon, but also Stannis, Selyse, Tormund, etc, and she is given a huge task and comes through on it. And, she is given a title by the southron people as they seem to want to raise her up to their levels, even though Jon keeps telling them that is not how it works.

But Val doesn't have her own agency nor does she show up all that much in ADwD. I actually expected more of her if she was going to be an important character. I expect a lot more from that rather uninteresting Wall plot in ADwD, actually. The hugest letdown is Jon himself, who simply doesn't have enough interesting interactions with the people he hangs out with.

I don't think Aurane Waters is dead, by the way. He is an irrelevant character and has become a pirate and is easily capable to either avoid superior enemies or join the likely winner of a conflict. He could easily survive the series and end up as the new Lord of Driftmark.

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

1. I see posters make this claim a lot and when I ask them to actually show some believable comparisons, they never, ever do. Every main character has a first love that is there to teach them some sort of lesson. Cersei even has one in Rhaegar and Dany had Drogo. There is no puppy-love in ASOIAF that is true and lasting. Ygritte was for duty, Val is for love. Drogo was for duty, Daario (?) is for love. Tyrion is for duty, Sandor (?) is for love.

Well, I don't think Val and Jon will stay together even if they begin an affair. And I'm not even sure that's going to happen. I mean, what sort of woman would want to sleep with a man who came back from the dead? That would be some sort of freak. There is a much better chance that Mel is going to be Jon's next love because she will most likely be involved in his resurrection and the woman he'll turn to for both guidance and explanations.

If the Red God brings Jon Snow back from the dead then he might even convert to R'hllor. I'd do that if I died and there is a reasonably good explanation that some god or his priestess brought me back from the dead (and I got over the connected trauma).

While Val is undeniably hot I'm not so sure that will matter all that much to a man who has just been resurrected.

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

1. They should, I fully agree. And we have seen that a lot so far, so to have one that is different would be unexpected. LSH was brought back by the old gods for revenge when guest rights were broken. LSH and Jon are not the same. Plus, it is entirely plausible that Jon was not mortally wounded... which then it will be real handy to have people like Val and Morna around.

Entirely plausible would it be if Jon Snow didn't receive wounds that weren't usually considered to be mortal in such a society. Not to mention that Jon most likely wouldn't have fainted had he not been very severely wounded. Val is never described as a powerful healer and even if Morna was whatever magic she has should have similar grievous consequences as Victarion's healing.

As things stand it is a faint hope about as likely as Catelyn surviving her last chapter (we didn't get confirmation that she died from the cut throat in that chapter, right?). All the other death cliffhangers were less obvious. Brienne didn't receive a mortal wound and could easily have been put down again, Davos had every chance to swim to safety beneath the fire, we don't know which side of the ax hit Arya, and so on.

But Jon's body was actually severely wounded. That is in the same camp as Robb being hit by multiple crossbow bolts in Lord Walder's hall. While he might technically still have a chance to survive it was not very likely that he would.

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

1. Your reaction to the idea of stealing is just exactly how it was set up to be... detestable. That is why the southron people are soooo afraid of the wildings. They might "steal" their girls. Well, just like "dance" means to fight, "steal" means to marry. But the southron people only think if it in the basic term. It is a translation non-communication issue. Sure, the wildling men do get a little physical, but for the most part the women are also expected to fight back and it is ultimately up to the women to decide if they accept the man as husband or not and the women's family can also intervene. And who is to say that Val wouldn't be the one to set a new precedent among the wildlings in their new homes that declares a change to this tradition.

That is simply not the case. Wildlings raid villages and forcefully abduct women. That's what the clansmen of the Mountains of the Moon do and that's what the free folk does, too. Among themselves they have a nice guy version of it but when they are dealing with outsiders their stealing is the same thing as the good old Ironborn salt wife thing - which is 'marriage', too, if you want to call it that, but still detestable.

This is just misogyny at its finest. We see how the non-privileged women at the far end of the ladder are treated with Craster's wives.

Ygritte tells us how things stand. You are fried if you are a (physically) weak woman (and most women are weaker than male warriors). You are fried if your murder your 'husband' in his sleep as Ygritte in her internalized contempt for her fellow women asserted any real woman would do (I guess Dalla wouldn't exactly have been hailed a hero or being awarded a medal had she cut Mance's throat in his sleep if he had raped her). You are fried if you have no male kin to 'protect you'. And you are of course fried if your family actually wants some guy to 'steal' you because they want to rid themselves of another mouth to feed (or just don't give a damn about you for some other reason).

[The Fattest Leech]

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think Davos is in that much danger, actually. Not right now with him being on Skagos. That is a manageable amount of danger, at least as far as we can make educated guesses. Skagos is a dangerous place but not likely to be overrun by the Others in the near future nor likely to be crushed under tons of ice when the Wall falls.

~snipped for length~

You make some good points, but I still can't agree with all of it because we are just introduced to the "second act", or whatever you want to call it. The stage is being re-set for the next big wave of action. And based on what we read, how the soldiers are lining up, we can all only make those educated guesses... like it is not the red god to bring Jon back, but the old gods.

You thought the Wall was boring???? I am aghast

[The Fattest Leech]

I mentioned this recently in another thread and wanted to add it here because I feel it adds to the value of Val and what she does for Jon in the long run.

Ghost likes Val without any prompting. Ghost only goes to Mel because Mel was casting spells at the time. Val warns Jon about the sword without a hilt thing (magic)... to which Mel counters... but we all know how Mel isn't so good at her craft yet.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

In the shadow of the Wall, the direwolf brushed up against his fingers. For half a heartbeat the night came alive with a thousand smells, and Jon Snow heard the crackle of the crust breaking on a patch of old snow. Someone was behind him, he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day.

When he turned he saw Ygritte. [this was Mel under a glamour]

 

~~Then it goes to this~~

"Yes, but …"

"Ghost." Melisandre made the word a song.

The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You make some good points, but I still can't agree with all of it because we are just introduced to the "second act", or whatever you want to call it. The stage is being re-set for the next big wave of action. And based on what we read, how the soldiers are lining up, we can all only make those educated guesses... like it is not the red god to bring Jon back, but the old gods.

You thought the Wall was boring???? I am aghast

Well, I had set certain criteria what I wanted to see at the Wall in ADwD. The name of the creatures begins with 'O' and ends on 'thers'. But we didn't get any of those.

And considering that we had figured out long ago that Melisandre was going to be one of the new POVs (man, was that a drag to argue that she was the new POV and not Loras or Sandor) I also really expected more from her chapter and in general from her as a character. The events in the Mel chapter could easily have figured in a Jon chapter - and I think that would have been the better choice considering that it could have shown us his reaction to the fact that Mance was still alive and his thoughts on the rescue plan for Arya Mel suggested. Nothing really came of that.

I liked the world building at the Wall, the storerooms and all, but I really found the chapters devoid of focus. Mel, Val, and other people just stumble into the plot occasionally, without much narrative cohesion. The first Jon chapter promised all sorts of interesting Jon-Mel interaction but nothing came of that at all. Jon doesn't even much interact with Selyse and her people later on, despite the fact that they are around for quite some time.

I'm not saying Val is a walking corpse. I just don't think she'll necessarily last. Nor is it likely that she and Jon will marry. If Jon is Rhaegar's son he'll have to marry somebody else. And even if that someone isn't Dany it will be some other prestigious highborn woman of true political significance (Arya, Sansa, Arianne, Shireen, Margaery, a Hightower daughter, etc.).

A lasting Jon-Val relationship is about as likely to occur as a Gendry-Arya marriage.

[BalerionTheCat]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think Davos is in that much danger, actually. Not right now with him being on Skagos. That is a manageable amount of danger, at least as far as we can make educated guesses. Skagos is a dangerous place but not likely to be overrun by the Others in the near future nor likely to be crushed under tons of ice when the Wall falls.

Davos is in danger. But it is not as bad as it looks. In fact, he could find allies on Skagos. It is the same for Val. IMO, to be near Jon is as safe as anywhere else.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Davos is in danger. But it is not as bad as it looks. In fact, he could find allies on Skagos. It is the same for Val. IMO, to be near Jon is as safe as anywhere else.

Tell that to Ygritte. Or Donal Noye. The hero has plot armor. His sidekicks ... not so much. At least not those who are not POVs.

[BalerionTheCat]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Tell that to Ygritte. Or Donal Noye. The hero has plot armor. His sidekicks ... not so much. At least not those who are not POVs.

Or Qhorin Halfhand. Or a lot of NW Brothers. There are people dying everywhere. The Wall is not the safest place. None is. But I still believe the final survivors will be Jon's team.

Obviously Ygritte was doomed. She had not the qualities to be a queen.

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Or Qhorin Halfhand. Or a lot of NW Brothers. There are people dying everywhere. The Wall is not the safest place. None is. But I still believe the final survivors will be Jon's team.

Well, if Jon's team sticks to the Wall they will all be crushed beneath it. If not, then they could live. But considering that Val isn't a coward I don't see her running away. If she has to fight at one point she will, and then she could easily die. Hell, she could even be killed in the wake of Jon's murder.

I'd not be surprised one bit if Jon Snow isn't at the Wall when it comes down - and that's then the only reason why he survived it. He might lose the bulk of or even all of his friends in the process.

14 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Obviously Ygritte was doomed. She had not the qualities to be a queen.

Neither does Val. She is a pretty face and perhaps knows stuff about things beyond the Wall. Neither would help her be accepted at Winterfell or as Queen Consort on the Iron Throne. 

[The Fattest Leech]

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, if Jon's team sticks to the Wall they will all be crushed beneath it. If not, then they could live. But considering that Val isn't a coward I don't see her running away. If she has to fight at one point she will, and then she could easily die. Hell, she could even be killed in the wake of Jon's murder.

I'd not be surprised one bit if Jon Snow isn't at the Wall when it comes down - and that's then the only reason why he survived it. He might lose the bulk of or even all of his friends in the process.

Neither does Val. She is a pretty face and perhaps knows stuff about things beyond the Wall. Neither would help her be accepted at Winterfell or as Queen Consort on the Iron Throne. 

Quick note about the last comment. I'm on my phone so I can't really cut and paste from the search site. 

Val is already being placed as the lady of Winterfell by Stannis, whether it is Jon who takes it or someone else. I can't remember which one, but Stannis, and even Selyse, are making matches for Val and placing Val at Winterfell. 

And I kinda don't think Jon will be at the wall to heal either. I think Morna, with the help of Val and some others, will take Jon to the weirwood where he took his vows to get assistance from the old gods, which also allows a possible Bran-Jon reunion of sorts. 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Quick note about the last comment. I'm on my phone so I can't really cut and paste from the search site. 

Val is already being placed as the lady of Winterfell by Stannis, whether it is Jon who takes it or someone else. I can't remember which one, but Stannis, and even Selyse, are making matches for Val and placing Val at Winterfell. 

And I kinda don't think Jon will be at the wall to heal either. I think Morna, with the help of Val and some others, will take Jon to the weirwood where he took his vows to get assistance from the old gods, which also allows a possible Bran-Jon reunion of sorts. 

Well, Val is sort of the last/only straw Stannis and his people have got as a bargaining chip. But her status as a princess is invented and while she has been considered for number of marriages (eventually Selyse seems to have granted her hand to Ser Patrek of the King's Mountain, resulting in the man's death) I very much doubt that any of this will have a lasting impact.

Ramsay is right now also the Lord of Winterfell but we don't think that's going to last, either.

I think Jon's spirit will survive in Ghost (after all, that's most likely why that wolf was named 'Ghost' in the first place) and his body will be resurrected the Beric way by Melisandre.

Afterwards they might face some problems reuniting body and spirit but that should be overcome, too. The skinchanger Borroq will realized that Jon's spirit is trapped in Ghost (or at least that this is most likely the case). Things could get more complicated if Jon-Ghost runs away.

The idea that Val or the Morna woman will take charge of Jon's body or invest any efforts in actually healing him or resurrecting him makes little sense because both shouldn't actually care about that (or him). Val may have had the hots for Jon (I actually doubt that because Jon is a youth fifteen years old and Val is actually a woman) but there was no hint she intended to resurrect Jarl or search for his body, so why should she do a similar thing for Jon?

Jon's resurrection will work best as some sort of magical accident/miracle of the same sort as Beric's first resurrection. Mel will give him the last rites according to her faith and then something unexpected is going to happen.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, Val is sort of the last/only straw Stannis and his people have got as a bargaining chip. But her status as a princess is invented and while she has been considered for number of marriages (eventually Selyse seems to have granted her hand to Ser Patrek of the King's Mountain, resulting in the man's death) I very much doubt that any of this will have a lasting impact.

Ramsay is right now also the Lord of Winterfell but we don't think that's going to last, either.

I think Jon's spirit will survive in Ghost (after all, that's most likely why that wolf was named 'Ghost' in the first place) and his body will be resurrected the Beric way by Melisandre.

Afterwards they might face some problems reuniting body and spirit but that should be overcome, too. The skinchanger Borroq will realized that Jon's spirit is trapped in Ghost (or at least that this is most likely the case). Things could get more complicated if Jon-Ghost runs away.

The idea that Val or the Morna woman will take charge of Jon's body or invest any efforts in actually healing him or resurrecting him makes little sense because both shouldn't actually care about that (or him). Val may have had the hots for Jon (I actually doubt that because Jon is a youth fifteen years old and Val is actually a woman) but there was no hint she intended to resurrect Jarl or search for his body, so why should she do a similar thing for Jon?

Jon's resurrection will work best as some sort of magical accident/miracle of the same sort as Beric's first resurrection. Mel will give him the last rites according to her faith and then something unexpected is going to happen.

Again, still on my phone so this is quick. 

Jarl was Val's "pet". Nothing more and not worth rezzing back to life. 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Again, still on my phone so this is quick. 

Take your time, I'm not going anywhere in the long run.

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Jarl was Val's "pet". Nothing more and not worth rezzing back to life. 

And Jon is? A guy she hasn't even slept with yet? For what purpose, exactly? Won't they have better things to do now that Bowen Marsh has taken over the Night's Watch?

The idea that anyone would actually intentionally want to resurrect Jon Snow is pretty insane. Nobody is madly in love with him (like Dany was with Drogo) nor is there any indication that anybody at the Wall thinks he is crucially important for the coming battle. If his true heritage had been revealed and he been proclaimed the savior then things might be somewhat different. But even then the rational/obvious way to continue would be 'You know what, perhaps that vision I had about him fighting against was wrong/only a potential future.'

I mean, that's what Mel would have to believe about Stannis in any case if he ever dies, right?

[DMC]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, Val is sort of the last/only straw Stannis and his people have got as a bargaining chip. But her status as a princess is invented and while she has been considered for number of marriages (eventually Selyse seems to have granted her hand to Ser Patrek of the King's Mountain, resulting in the man's death) I very much doubt that any of this will have a lasting impact.

Yeah, Val is actually indirectly responsible for Jon getting stabbed in the first place by way of Selyse promising her to Patrek!  I believe what @The Fattest Leech is referring to IRT Winterfell is Stannis mentioning early on in ADWD that both Massey and Horpe aspired to the seat, and for the former, Val as well.  I agree that this doesn't make much sense in terms of solidifying the North under Stannis' power - one would think even if he wanted to install one of his own at Winterfell it'd be much more prudent to marry them to a bannerman's daughter that proved integral in helping oust the Boltons.

I do disagree with the notion that Val doesn't "care" about Jon at all.  The two flirt throughout ADWD - much more so than Jon and Mel - and he did go out of his way to ensure her nephew's safety.  Who knows if anything will come of this, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Val could become Queen in the North; especially if the Wildings remain a substantial part of Jon's power base if he hypothetically becomes KitN.  I doubt it will happen, but ya never know.  Queen of the Iron Throne though?  Yeah don't see that as a possibility.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

Yeah, Val is actually indirectly responsible for Jon getting stabbed in the first place by way of Selyse promising her to Patrek!  I believe what @The Fattest Leech is referring to IRT Winterfell is Stannis mentioning early on in ADWD that both Massey and Horpe aspired to the seat, and for the former, Val as well.  I agree that this doesn't make much sense in terms of solidifying the North under Stannis' power - one would think even if he wanted to install one of his own at Winterfell it'd be much more prudent to marry them to a bannerman's daughter that proved integral in helping oust the Boltons.

Yeah, Val is a candidate for a lot marriages. But nothing came of that, and I'd add that nothing could come of that politically, because Val doesn't exactly command the allegiance of any of the wildlings. She would be nothing but a pretty face. Better for Stannis than nothing at all, but still not exactly a good way to try to unite the North under her husband. She is, after all, a wildling. And the Northmen do not like wildlings.

The plan involving Sigorn and the Thenns might work because they are clearly much more like the kneelers. The Thenns worship Sigorn, and now he has married the heir to Karhold (or even the Lady of Karhold). You can work with such people. But Val wouldn't bring any spears to whoever married her as Lord of Winterfell.

8 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

I do disagree with the notion that Val doesn't "care" about Jon at all.  The two flirt throughout ADWD - much more so than Jon and Mel - and he did go out of his way to ensure her nephew's safety.  Who knows if anything will come of this, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Val could become Queen in the North; especially if the Wildings remain a substantial part of Jon's power base if he hypothetically becomes KitN.  I doubt it will happen, but ya never know.  Queen of the Iron Throne though?  Yeah don't see that as a possibility.

Perhaps that was a little bit to much on my part. But I was referring to the context of caring about resurrecting Jon Snow, not caring about Jon Snow in general.

And while there is certainly flirting going on one has to ask oneself whether Val is there talking to Jon Snow the person or Lord Commander Snow, the guy she could use to get what she wants should she successfully seduce him. I very much doubt Jon Snow the Steward would get the same amount of attention from her. Instead, she might have turned her eyes to Janos Slynt.

Just because Val is some spear-wife doesn't mean she has no idea how to seduce men. She is, after all, a very beautiful woman. And one can assume that she in not very inclined to remain a prisoner in Castle Black forever. Sure, she realizes that Jon has been sufficiently seduced to the wildling way of life that his offer to help them is sincere. And she obviously shares Mance and Dalla's view that the free folk has to cross the Wall to survive the winter (which is why she goes to Tormund and brings him to Castle Black). But this doesn't mean they have the same goals in the long run or agree how things should be done in the future.

Come to think about Val right now, I must say I find her a not very interesting or realistic character. She is way too much the standard fantasy cliché of the beautiful woman everybody wants to fuck marry and due to the fact that we don't get any insight into her she remains shallow.

I'm not even sure that it makes much sense that Stannis and his people should put so much hope into her. I mean, they are told again and again that Val is not a princess and doesn't have any authority over the wildlings. How realistic is it that nobody listens to that?